2008 BMW M3 beats a Carrera S on the Nurburgring-This document shows you how

Agent001 submitted on 07/10/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 9:17 PM
from: www.autospies.com

Tags: 2008 BMW M3, 911 Carrera S

Tag Links:

2008 BMW M3

911 Carrera S

2008 BMW M3 beats a Carrera S on the Nurburgring-This document shows you how

Those are fightin' words!

Today, at the BMW press rollout of the 2008 BMW M3 I asked a BMW engineer if he thought the new M3 was better than a Porsche 911.

And without hesitation he said yes and that it beat the 911 Carrera S on the Nurburgring.

Pretty impressive if you ask us but do you believe him?

Check out the powerpoint presentation and you'll see how the M3 takes the Nurburgring and how it was developed to best the 911.

2008 BMW M3 full powerpoint feature presentation

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EL34 - 7/10/2007 9:53:20 PM

+1 Boost

The M3 is one bad Mofo.

Congratulations to BMW.

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BMW_DRVR - 7/12/2007 10:26:02 AM

0 Boost

Let me get this straight; because you work at porsche you know that a BMW that you haven't driven can't beat the Carrera S. Ok. I understand. You're Retarded!!!

henbmw - 7/12/2007 8:08:10 PM

+2 Boost

Really? Because the old m3 csl beat it by 9 seconds at Nürburgring Nordschleife with its measley 360hp.

superfastauto - 7/24/2007 7:08:12 PM

+1 Boost

i currently own a porsche cayman s, 911 s, bmw m5 2006 and bmw 535i. these are two completely different animals. the m5 when driven with 500 hp and in the sport mode is fast once it takes from 25mph. the 0-60 is still slower than the 911s but it gets there without you noticing going that fast. i once got up to 78 mph on local street and thought i was doing 45-50. the rush of power from the m5 is comical. it's fast and solid. the v10 power is relentlessand plentiful. the cayman s is the slowest of the bunch but the most fun to drive during turns. took turns at 50-55 mph (90 degrees) without any fear for my life. of course you have to slowely build up the speed. i started to makes turns at 35-40mph to build confidence. the only gripe i have with the cayman s is that the 0-60 time is slow. porsche did this on purpose to not hurt 911 sales. the 911s is fast. 0-60 is around 4.4-4.6 second. might be faster with a better driver. what porsche gives you is the ability to zig zag at any speed even when you brake and need to press on the gas again. the power is limitless and the rpm happy engine is more than happy to oblige. the m5 has more power (500hp) but you don't feel confident making a turn at high speed and the power is "untrollable" at times. i guess we all drive because we want to feel connected to the road with pinpoint steering accuracy. you get that with the Porsche. honestly, i used to not like porsche, actually with ppl who drove porsches' but you really do become one with the car. the bmw 535i i got for my wife is smooth is silk. the turbo engine is so easy to drive.0-60 is about 5.5-5.6 with an automatic. it's more fun to drive than the mercedes e500 we had. hopefully the new m3 will come close or match the feel of the porsche 911 s. remember, driving a car is not all about numbers. if you wanna go fast, get an evo or suburu. being one with the car is the most important thing along with being able to go 0-50mph-35 mph and back to 50mph in the shortest amount of time. in life we all do most driving on local streets. oh yes, the satisfaction of being the fastest car to pull out of the stop light when it turns green ain't bad either. it's what we live for isn't it. good luck to the bmw and porsche owners alike.

Nick - 3/26/2008 6:31:27 PM

+1 Boost

I drive a 2002 M3 which I love. With great anticipation I test drove the new M3 a few days ago, fully anticipating to order one immediately afterwards. The new car is faster,looks and sounds better, and has a superb engine. And yet... I was immensely disappointed. It feels fatter and softer than my E46 and has lost some of the primal charachter one expects from an M. The steering is unacceptably soft at low speeds. Similarly the clutch is ridiculously light. Clearly BMW is trying to appeal to a broader market and increase M sales by making the car more accessible to the masses. What's next - an M minivan.
As for me, I regreatably am heading to the Porsche dealer to check out my options there.

ashramboy - 7/10/2007 10:18:35 PM

+8 Boost

Where does it indicate it can beat 997 Carrera S?
It may have been developed to beat 911, it could not.
Sad that BMW has to make this to prove some kind a point. with e46, they did not have to make this kind of pr brochure to glorify the car. Why? because action spoke louder than the words.

reply to this comment

BMW_DRVR - 7/12/2007 10:22:41 AM

+1 Boost

He is refering to what the BMW engineer said. Didn't you people read the article. He asked "do you believe him?"

Lexus - 7/10/2007 10:51:31 PM

-1 Boost

I don't it could beat Porsche 997 Carrera S either, on edmund.com, they were comparing to the Porsche 911.

This brochure coming from BMW, so I do not belief everything they said. I guess you that desperate to try to retain your crown, you doing anything.

As far now, the Audi RS4 is king in this class, but that might change with up coming C63 AMG and Lexus IS-F.

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7msynthetic - 7/11/2007 2:30:52 AM

0 Boost

I agree - there's alot of marketing going on here. Why don't they have a page that says "squishy brakes, lots of understeer, crappy shifter and minimal torque?"

Auto_expert - 7/11/2007 4:37:10 AM

-2 Boost

RS4 is the king of the class? Hmm...Didn't the RS4 (NO, not the S4 and not the A4 2.8 that you might be thinking) already lose out to the 335i? Why YES, I think it did!

Click the link to find out how...
http://www.autospies.com/news/Car-Driver-The-Lightning-Lap-the-335i-beats-the-RS4-17050/

rg12345 - 7/11/2007 12:37:49 PM

-2 Boost

It did not loose. That article is fake..

Yonder7 - 7/10/2007 11:35:13 PM

-1 Boost

Do not belive to anything, thrust the numbers and the compares. I have a Geman fiend that told me: Every time that your are in the Autobhan, If you are at maximun speed and some body blinks the lights, pull apart and as soon as he pass you will see Mercedes, AMG or Porsche badge, and very likely you will be driving an Bimmer M machine or other brand But MB or Porsche. The tracks is another history, but that was the pass, let see the next chapter.

reply to this comment

MPowerDK - 7/11/2007 1:37:02 AM

+2 Boost

Thats because Porshe and MB AMG does not have limited top speed.
You can have you BMW without that to, then you have to take some lessons in how to handle the car. I dont remember but think that the M5 then comes with a topspeed limited to 305 km/h.

johnct - 7/10/2007 11:38:33 PM

-8 Boost

I know it won't be based on fact or personal experience but I want to be the first one here to say that this obviously means the the IS-F is now hypothetically, faster then both a 911 and an M3. I am going to have to patiently await the shootout between the IS-F, the Mclaren F-1, Jeff Gordon's COT Impala, and a F-22, since no other street car in the world will be able to compete with it.

Seriously though, anytime a car can go head to head with an all time great like the 911 then it deserves some attention from true enthusiast. I can't wait to drive the new M3.

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ashramboy - 7/11/2007 7:26:11 PM

+2 Boost

please dont compare toyota isf with bmw, mercedes or porsche. toyota is master of glorifying and fooling people to think that it is something other than what it is. go to japan and ask any japanese. they will tell you isf is a toyota altezza with toyota crown engine inside.

MrGunFun - 7/10/2007 11:49:01 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Now that's a wow.

Golf Clap!

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Lexus - 7/11/2007 1:12:17 AM

Show Comment -15 Boost

MPowerDK - 7/11/2007 1:39:48 AM

0 Boost

I dont think the Mondeo outruns any BMW. Ofcourse a 1,8 compared to a 1,8 the Mondeo might be faster in straight line, but who cares?
By the way if you like driving then the most boring is a straight line, the fun is the backroad with lots of turns..

Rupert - 7/11/2007 3:49:46 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Considering how the biggest engined Mondeo is a 2.5 turbo with 220 hp, I don't see how it could out run the 325, 330 or 335. 320 sure, but that has like 170 hp.

If you say that you may as well say the IS250/220d got its ass kicked by the Mondeo.

Rupert - 7/11/2007 3:52:11 AMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

And this "sup up 3 series" as you so eloquently put it did not have its "ass beat" by the Mondeo, a 320i was put in second place because the Mondeo was cheaper.
And the IS-F is going to be a "sup up" IS, isn't it?

M53R - 7/11/2007 9:22:01 AMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Idiot. Buy your ford and let us buy our BMWs.

Porschinator - 7/11/2007 2:11:45 AM

+1 Boost

I predict the Z06 can beat the IS-F. As for the BMW M3, I cannot tell how it feels since I have not been in the new M3, but they do have a hill to climb when trying to say it is 'better' than a Porsche! Again I missed the part that it beat a 997S. It appears the 997S has faster 0-60 times, not sure on 1/4.

Currenty there is no comparison to the E46 M3 and 997S. Porsche beats it hands down. Porsche has not changed and the M3 has so we'll see. M3-CSL will be interesting!

reply to this comment

07mcs - 7/11/2007 5:24:21 PM

+1 Boost

The M3 CSL is the lightweight version track ready and will compete against the 911 GT3, and I don't think it can beat it, but will be interesting to see the comparo.

Porschinator - 7/11/2007 2:18:04 AM

-1 Boost

LOL...just noticed WWII was somehow brought into this topic (Germans were out numbered by atleast 5 to 1 by the way...hehe). Of course the Japanese car fans can put in their 2 cents...free country. By the way...how did the WWII axis powers come up with great cars??? Mystery!

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sewingmachine - 7/11/2007 4:38:34 AM

-1 Boost

please tell us, oh great one?

7msynthetic - 7/11/2007 2:28:51 AM

-2 Boost

The M3 will already be $$$. How much for a CSL?

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DarkOneForce - 7/11/2007 1:44:04 PM

-2 Boost

> Still cheaper vs. an RS4 (oh, it's out), C63, CLK63, and a 911, AMV8 and so on.

So why is it expensive, just because BMW followed MB, Audi, Porsche to rise the price ?!

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 7/11/2007 4:16:48 AM

+1 Boost

Well, that's fast!

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MBKing - 7/11/2007 6:21:02 AM

-5 Boost

This is just retarded, the m3 is settled at the top when its compared to the other cars in its class, like the RS4, and the AMG c-class. But now BMW is being retarded trying to go up against porsche like they have something to prove? Remember you over compensate when you don't have enough to bring it at your own table. BMW's playing games that are going to end up hurting their image and stance as number 1. My bet, here comes the c63 AMG.

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enthusiastx11 - 7/12/2007 2:31:19 AM

+2 Boost

zippo. none. and the first few months supply will likely sell for well over list.

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supermoto - 7/12/2007 1:11:27 PM

+2 Boost

Incentives? My dealer is offering an incentive of MRSP + $10-$20k.

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Will_ - 7/11/2007 7:13:24 AM

+1 Boost

You asked a BMW engineer whether he thought the new M3 was 'better' than the 911 and he said 'yes.'

...and?...

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ashramboy - 7/11/2007 7:27:42 PM

+2 Boost

enthusiastx11 - 7/11/2007 10:12:29 PM

0 Boost

IS-F is pretty old news now. and still...nobody has ever driven it.

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M53R - 7/11/2007 9:25:06 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Wow this really put an old shoe in the mouthes of all of you haters havent it? lol. I did expect it to be faster to be honest. I cant wait till the CSL eats the turbo.

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trackturtle - 7/11/2007 12:26:29 PM

+1 Boost

We know Product differentiation is important, but did they really need to go replace 80% of the M3 with new parts? Wouldn't that make replacement parts expensive?

...Or is that saying that people shouldn't power mod a 335 and drive it briskly? (Assuming the suspension chassis and drive train were all unique between the 335i and the M3, which it seems to indicate in the slides)

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lenkun - 7/11/2007 12:52:07 PM

-3 Boost

The M3 competes with a 997 911 4S
The M3 CLS competes with a 997 911 GT3

C63 AMG/RS4/IS-F competes with a 997 911 GT3-RSR and F430 Challenge Stradle.

C63 AMG Black Series competes with Enzo FXX and Veyron 16.4

Therefore C63 AMG/RS4/IS-F > M3.
C63 AMG Black Series is the best supercar, beating all others.

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ThierryHenry14 - 7/11/2007 1:21:26 PM

+3 Boost

1. lenkun, I hope that is sarcastic... ha ha

2. one person talking does not represent BMW's position. Besides, if someone asked you if it can beat a Porsche, what would he say? NO?

3. This is not about the RS4, IS-F, C63. Its about an M3.

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BM3W - 7/11/2007 1:42:58 PM

+1 Boost

In my opinion the 2008 BMW M3 can definitely keep up if not overtake the 911. But to overtake the 911S BMW M GmbH engineers will need to rollout the CSL model too have even a chance of pulling this one off.

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M53R - 7/11/2007 1:47:43 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

M = Magic

johnct - 7/11/2007 2:15:39 PM

-3 Boost

Stuck on Stupid

DarkOneForce - 7/11/2007 1:46:16 PM

+2 Boost

The old E46 M3 CLS did the Ring in 7:50, that's a lot faster than a 997S.

The 911 S is a good target, but the bimmer seems big and heavy and no longer pure as the E30 M3.

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moto - 7/11/2007 8:03:06 PM

+1 Boost

True, the M3 CSL lap time of 7:50 was a touch faster than the 997S, which Walter Röhrl zipped around Nordschleife in 7:59 in 2004. However, all the Porsche 996 & 997 GT3 and GT2s, not to mention Carrera Turbos, have routinely beat that time. You're comparing different rungs on two different ladders. Both are great companies with great cars, but the Porsche has -- and has always had -- cars with performance that blow BMW out of the water.

Case in point: the Porsche 997 Turbo tied the Veyron's time of 7:40. Porsche simply has a better platform for this kind of driving. BMW is arguably more of a touring car, and relatively more economical. I don't see the point of comparing the two.

Moreover, all these Nurburgring times depend strongly on weather, tires, and driver. The fact is, no one here will ever drive that well or that fast on a closed road course, let alone on public streets, in any car.

investor27 - 7/11/2007 2:45:52 PM

0 Boost

If I worked for BMW as an Engineer on the new model for my company, and a newspaper lad asked me if my car was the best, I would say "yes" too, if I want to keep my job.

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Porschinator - 7/11/2007 4:49:02 PM

+1 Boost

Lenkun - C63 and SL63 Black Series are muscle cars only. On the track they are useless, only straight line runs. On numerous occasions the Black Series gets its ass handed to it by a GT3. This is no way saying the power plant in the black series is not awesome! Just too much power for the car it is put into.

Auto makers like to compare to Porsches because Porsche 911s are great track cars. If a car can compare to a 911 then it is a well balanced and great overall ride. There are sports cars that can beat a Porsche in the 1/4 miles but lose on the tracks. Big difference!!!

What does 001 think? He drove them both!

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enthusiastx11 - 7/11/2007 10:13:35 PM

+2 Boost

why is it a waste of time?

not everyone can afford $100k for a 911. what else would you buy for $60k over an M3?

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supermoto - 7/12/2007 1:16:44 PM

0 Boost

Exactly, especially since a fully optioned M3 with Bay Area dealer markup of $10-20k would cost MORE than a base 911 Carerra S.

The M3 is an amazing feat of engineering, but for the same price, a 911 has soooo much more finesse and status than what is basically an extremely modified 328. And I say that as a very happy BMW 335i owner.

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henbmw - 7/13/2007 10:12:29 AM

+2 Boost

911 a more sound choice than a M3 you say? Well, if you prefer:

1. A miniscule backseat
2. 60 less horsepower
3. Higher price (base price of a S is 81k, compared to estimated 60k for the M3)
4. Poorer fuel economy

Then yes, I would say you are correct.

reply to this comment

rom64 - 7/12/2007 2:12:20 PM

0 Boost

LOL!

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enthusiastx11 - 7/11/2007 10:10:47 PM

+1 Boost

it's a hell of car!
and a much more realistic daily driver than a 911 to boot.

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Yonder7 - 7/11/2007 10:14:35 PM

+1 Boost

Of course one big engine is not enough to make a track car. Thats why MB is moving in the direction of track performers. MB did a great job with the new C63 but Mercedes Benz will always be slower on the tracks, not because is bad, if not because is heavier due gadgets, security systems plus very portected cockpit. BMW in the other side try to keep the weight very low and as all you already know, that gave to the coupe very "marginal" security in crash test. Actualy My favorite car is MB, however that do not means that I am not seen that Bimmers are great and have just one problem: Engines the new M3 will fail just for that weak engine I think, and just for the records Bimmers, even without electronic governors, are not contenders for Mercedes on any Autobhan and most of high speed records in traditional cars are owned by MB ENGINES. The new M3 is Tech Art but again, A WONDERFULL car and my only complaint is that engine, The worst thing that I can about it: "is almost japanese: a lot or RPM but no torque and not enough hp". C63 is tammed, in "normal" CL63 it reach 525Hp which is more than the M5 v10 and a lot more torque. I realy hate that engine, But rest of the car (excuding the interior) looks great and is excelent, and for the people that hate the new suspesion because is a little soft, Stop to talk about something that you do not know, wait for the track test and then talk, until now BMW know most of the secrets on suppensions, and Mercedes is Learning from their mistakes.

reply to this comment

JRobUSC - 7/12/2007 11:00:51 AM

+3 Boost

yonder, the M5 and M6 would go over 200mph if they were ungoverned, that's plenty fast. They also accelerate 0-60 and through the 1/4 mile just as fast as the E/CLS/CLK/CL63.

BMW prefers to build their engines more like F1 (smaller engines, high RPM screamers, similar to Ferrari) than Mercedes and their NASCAR style build (massive engines, loads of torque, similar to a more advanced Dodge Viper). Neither is "wrong", they're just different. Both accomplish the goals the manufacturer has for the cars they stick them in, it's just that those goals aren't exactly the same. BMW could certainly build a 6.2L behemoth V8 and Mercedes could build a 4.0L screamer V8, they just choose to build engines that better suit their marques and clients.

LJ745 - 7/11/2007 10:35:33 PM

+2 Boost

Another fantastic product from BMW. It will be interesting to see the comparison to the Porshe in real life. No doubt this car will handle fantastically and be a blast to drive. Best in class as usual.

reply to this comment

MrGunFun - 7/12/2007 2:18:41 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

If someone can keep Buckfush, Will and 43LE out of this thread we are good to pary with german car fans.

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MrGunFun - 7/12/2007 2:19:48 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

*correction 'Party' :)

MrGunFun - 7/12/2007 2:19:27 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

*correction 'Party' :)

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ThierryHenry14 - 7/12/2007 10:07:55 AM

+4 Boost

Both are great cars, and both will beat one another in certain categories, no doubt.

You will not convince a BMW fan that its not as good as a 911 because they are so passionate about their car. Understandable.

What I don't get is why is it that german car haters have to chime in on every single posting? Get a life.

Buckfush, he's been in a cave for his whole life, so leave him alone.

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d1sinfo - 7/12/2007 10:38:39 AM

+2 Boost

Word.

People need to stop getting but hurt over these things. Both sides of this battle. If you like german cars thats great, if you prefer japanese cars, great.

Remember where this passion came from though. Remember there was as stretch between 1988 and 1998 where there was only really 1 company making manual RWD cars in almost there entire lineup. Sometimes 'hardcore' decisions like that get a 'hardcore' following. It was during that time that Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus were either chasing Mercedes, or tripping over there own feet when trying to figure out what image they wanted to make. That meant years of slushbox fwd'rs(i know there were some rwd manuals) which in the eyes of the enthusiast was not all that exciting.

So don't blame BMW for the unreal fanaticism with which there fans defend them. Blame there overall lack of competition (in that specific market) for years.

And if there is anything you guys can understand its brand loyalty, which everyone seems to have in spades.

Josh

Yonder7 - 7/12/2007 1:37:14 PM

0 Boost

JRobUSC: What you say makes a lot of sence. But what I say about endurance also is is right in the world of physics: High RPM=more friction= less lifesapan and most of time more maintenace and less torsion. However I got your point, I understand why so many people enjoy an screaming engine. I love a big monster under the hood that will be so quiet, that only the RPM will tell you that is alive (Jeikel and Hide). World would be very boring only with steel cold quiet engines. Bimmers fans love that F1 stile sound in the same way that I enjoy a Fighter Jet engine. Do not misundertand, I love MB but by any reason means that I think that other brands are trash and I know that there is a lot of people that will disagree, But Lexus, Infiniti and Acura puts a lot heat against German manufacturers. They are doing great cars and thats why now we are like in a Gold Age in the world of cars. I realy like to see IS-F Against C63, RS4, and M3 in a big compare. The edge of japanese is reliability and thats the main goal that every manufactures should pursue now that they god performance.

reply to this comment

moto - 7/12/2007 5:53:39 PM

+1 Boost

no, I strongly disagree.

high RPM does not equal more friction or less lifespan.

inadequate materials, poor lubrication, improper tolerances, and poor balance makes for more friction and lesser lifespan.

It's amazing how the characteristics of old engines can get carried in people's heads for years, even when the underlying fundamentals in modern engines have drastically changed.

With the advantages of synthetic lubricants, superior machining tolerances and lubrication systems, plus materials that are both lighter and stronger than every before, high RPM engines are not necessarily fragile. High RPM also does not mean low torque. Review the formula for horsepower from mechanical engineering 101 -- you will see that power and torque are one and the same. The question isn't whether new small-displacement engines are any good -- they are -- the question is whether today's driver enjoys the additional shifting that goes along with a small, light engine. The Honda S2000 is a perfect example of a fantastically fun, razor-sharp sports roadster that didn't sell well. It required the driver to shift often, and it was tuned for spirited driving, not Main St. cruising. Some of us loved it, most people just didn't want to spend the money for it. In BMW's case, they are opting to go heavier and less driver-oriented because that's what they think will sell more. Unfortunately, they may be right. Americans are lazy drivers for the most part.

henbmw - 7/12/2007 9:59:37 PM

+1 Boost

Not just Americans, something like 14% of all 3-series sales in the UK were M3's

quizz - 7/12/2007 3:50:11 PM

+1 Boost

For $60,000 the M3 gives you more for the money than the 911, but for $60,000 maybe the Cayman S is still the better car.

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Slims - 7/12/2007 4:05:20 PM

+1 Boost

I love BMWs. in fact i own two BMWs. However, i am a bit disappointed with this M3. I expected reviews to be raving about it. i truely thought the 997 S would not have a chance next to an M3. but after reading all those reviews about its handling, brakes...ect i kinda feel let down. I didnt expect to hear any complains about the 2008 M3. looks like i am wrong, and i just feel like its so under powered. I am really disappointed. I was holding my breath and got my self on the waiting list for a white M3. but i guess BMW let me down this time. I really never saw that coming!

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moto - 7/12/2007 5:43:17 PM

0 Boost

I'd say that the BMW is not underpowered, it's overweight. quizz is right -- for $60k, a loaded Cayman will be the much more rewarding, comfortable, and exclusive vehicle.

ThierryHenry14 - 7/12/2007 5:46:09 PM

+3 Boost

Its not about power... its about balance.

reply to this comment

Steve - 7/12/2007 11:10:00 PM

+1 Boost

There's a YouTube video of a Top Gear episode in which a woman driving a van came within 10 seconds of the best time done by a Top Gear driver in a Jaguar on The Ring.

Once you see a video like that, one tends to pay much less attention to "X beat Y" stories.

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r_driver04 - 7/12/2007 11:54:20 PM

0 Boost

The M3 and 911 are not even in the same category. And no an M3 cannot run down a 911 let alone a 911S. Apples and oranges.

reply to this comment

r_driver04 - 7/12/2007 11:58:03 PM

+2 Boost

Next person to put Lexus in a thread for real driver cars should be banned from this site.

reply to this comment

r_driver04 - 7/12/2007 11:58:11 PM

+2 Boost

Next person to put Lexus in a thread for real driver cars should be banned from this site.

reply to this comment

xj13 - 7/13/2007 3:19:24 AM

+2 Boost

I Agree, they should never be mentioned together with real drivers cars.

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