AutoBild: Audi A6 3.0 TDI vs BMW 530d vs Lexus GS450h vs Mercedes E320 CDI

And there is plenty of evidence.

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 1:05:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

They do compete. That's why this is a competitive comparison.


Wake up.

— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 5:30:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The GS450 is not targeted at cheap economy diesels.

— mitchatlexusofmarin (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 7:00:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

And you think some Americans who review these cars aren't biased as well? Don't forget Lexus was a targeting America's market when they first introduced.

Even if they weren't biased the Europeans probably still like the German ride more. I for one like how Lexus ride as they are comfortable but it lacks that solidity I'm looking for that's in a German. Either way my LS460 is good but my 550's got more appeal and is more rich in European luxury.

Anyways the GS450H is not a bad car. It's a great car but I guess against the diesels it lacks the performance and in terms of handling it can not compete with the Germans on that. It is a great outing by Lexus though. The GS is my favorite Lexus! so in that regard go Lexus! haha

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 9:48:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Mitch,

Bluetec is not cheap technology. If you talk about eco isn't Hybrid technology aimed for people who want to save some money as well as help the environment? Don't think Lexus is trying to up one on the diesels. Remember Honda came out with Hybrid first and then Toyota NOT LEXUS.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 6:07:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

houston:

they love lexus in europe? i don't think so.

the biggest lexus market in europe is britain. and they only sold 11,000 cars there last years. and they've been there since 1990. the volume on the rest of the continent is TINY. and considering that europe has DOUBLE the population of the US, that's pretty horrible.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 7:35:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Those German cars aren't "cheap economy diesels", they are premium cars that happen to have advanced and highly efficient diesel engines. The Lexus can't compete because all the hybrid tech (read battery) is still too expensive.

— maff23uk (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 6:23:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

With your Logic a Lexus is a rebadged toyota too. Funny you fail to say that.

— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 1:43:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 14   

Unbelievable comparison yet again. Why test a hybrid GS against standard V6s? So that they fail it because of its high price and small trunk? lol

This means one and only one thing, the Germen cars won't dare to be compared against their competing Lexus line up. Shame on AutoBild for this comparison.

Look at their stupid comparison resaults, how come the GS has no mention of comfort and interior size? Was the whole idea of this comparison the trunk size and the price of the car? lol

They should've brought in the GS350, why didn't they do that? because they fear it, even though they would've found 100 reasons to put it last.

Shame, shame on those that put this comparison together, it shows nothing but ignorance and incredible stupidity.

— Designer1 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 12:22:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -19   

-poor fuel economy outside of urban environment ?
Aber mal ehrlich: Für einen Hybrid-Benziner mit temperamentvollen 340 PS ist das ebenfalls sensationell.
They say the fuel economy is sensational for a 340 HP car.

— 123456 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 12:41:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

I like and appreciate Lexus, and I still think it's a fair comparaison from their point vues as comparing gaz alternative's cars. I would still prefer the GS450h though (better performer).
And yes Lexus offers diesel in Europe, and actually AutoBild had another comparaison with the entry level luxury and the result was like this:
1. 2007 BMW 320d
2. 2008 Mercedes C220 CDI
3. 2007 Lexus IS220d
4. 2007 A4 TDi
5. Alfa Romeo

— Luxurious (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 12:45:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

This article is better.
http://autozeitung.de/online/render.php?render=25950

— 123456 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 12:48:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Interesting to see that the Hybrid is noisier than the diesels!

— kpaxx (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 12:57:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

interesting to see that the Hybrid is noisier than the diesels????
They say the car is very silent.

— 123456 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 1:01:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Toyotaman, just in case you missed it the Lexus came in dead last.

el34
Irvine,Ca

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 1:02:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 9   

So many of you brought up how the LS600hL "beat" the S600 in a GERMAN comparison test (when they actually tied), but now, since the Lexus is in last, you're all screaming "BIASED!" Surprise, surprise...

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 2:17:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

I have to admit that I was surprised with the LS600 review, but I never mentioned that it beat the S600. You're lumping me into that other group of Lexus fanatics. I am not a huge Lexus fan but I grow tired when I see people blindly bashing brands for no reason. I still say that I am not surprised at this GS review considering where it came from. Time and time again, German car reviews have more often than not ranked Lexus cars lower than other countries' reviews.

— 3OgOg (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 3:15:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

30g0g, I wasn't really referring to you because I've never seen any of your posts before, but okay...

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 6:56:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

but lexus has a GS v8 that competes with the germans: the GS460.

and isn't the GS-F that everyone is talking about the performance version.

so what's the hybrid for? environmentally concerned people right?

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 2:47:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Yes, enthusiast, and it gets a whopping 20mpg! LOL!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 3:21:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I believe we have discussed this review here long time ago.

All came to the conclusion, the review is bullshxt.

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 1:19:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6   

Rice burners are cheaper than German cars for a reason but you can generally negotiate a better discount on a German car as they are a bit overpriced to begin with. As for the cars compared in this article, BMW is the only one to offer an in-line 6 cylinder engine which is in the optimum configuration for balance. I currently drive a leased Audi A6 but am hesitant to buy any new V6 unless it is in the proper 60-degree configuration as opposed to the inherently-out-of balance 90-degree configuration. Six-cylinder engines should be in the I configuration (e.g. BMW) or in the H configuration (e.g. Porsche and Subaru).

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 1:48:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Why was "comfort" a minus for the A6? That was its ONLY minus. Doesn't make sense...

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 2:17:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

BMW WON AGAIN :)

— printhan (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 2:21:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Congrats to BMW, Audi and Mercedes for their quality autos.

Lexus should cram more sound deading material under the seats.

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 2:41:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

A more fair comparison is a GS350. Comfort and luxury is penalized?
Strange indeed.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 2:56:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

Hehehe... that's what I've been saying. It just doesn't make sense. Some people like the Lexus- they're automatically a smart car buyer and know everything about cars. However, if the Lexus doesn't do well, that author MUST be an idiot... LOL.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 6:58:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Another thing to remember and that is, a hybrid technology is NOT a deisel competition, its ONLY a new technology that will be further expanded by all car manufacturers in the near future.

So, I hope people can understand that. And sadly if the "professional" magazine editors don't get it, what would you expect from normal people?

— Designer1 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 4:00:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Ok - people buy the GS450h in Europe because they want fuel economy and performance, which Lexus does not offer otherwise.
People buy these 3.0+ diesels because they want performance and fuel economy.
Catch my drift?
The Lexus is about 0.9 seconds quicker to 62 than the E and the 5, and is also about 10000 dollars more here than a 530d.
Personally I would have compared it with the 535d, which offers similar performance (0.5 seconds slower than GS450h), and better fuel economy than it.
However, the 530d also gets an amazing fuel economy, getting 36 US combined, better than the GS' 28 US combined (which no one gets.). BTW this is using the European economy cycle.
The 530d also emits less CO2 (lower company car tax), costs A LOT less, and gets 46 US mpg on the highway, and 26 US mpg round town.
In my mind, and the mind of most Europeans, the GS competes with these diesel cars. Hybrid cars are marketed as "Lexus' diesel alternative", so that is what in competes with.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 6:23:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

all german car fans shurely seem to be taking this opportunity to bash up lexus. Just wait till ISF comes in, then all these notions about lexus not being able to handle will dispel. Anyway lexus are made for refinement and luxury and reliability not driving dynamic like BMW. So in that sense this comparison is unfair because Eclass, 5 series, and A6 are all cars made for european market in mind which demands a lot of performance and handling, whereas lexus is made for the american market that does not need handling, but more so needs reliability, luxury, and prestige, all attributes that can be given to lexus. I am not a german car fans except for BMW. I think the new M3 is jus the most mean and powerful looking car, lexus ISF is nothing compared to the M3, but i don't like mercedes and audi, both too lumpant and heavy.

— farabira1 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 6:31:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

This is getting so tired... Lexus fans just can never accept a bad review. It's ridiculous. If someone loves the LS600hL, they go crazy and expect us to disagree with the article; that usually doesn't happen (with the smarter German car fans), but when a Lexus doesn't do well, they make excuse after excuse, demanding a metaphorical recount... and they still don't see it in themselves!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 7:01:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I think S4 accepts that is a given fact though that the GS hybrid is an alternative to it's petrol models. And trust me I love the GS to death but I choose an LS because it had some cool technology.

Not all of the German car fans hate Lexus. It's more they hate the fans and how they think. I for one am a car of all brands because I think every brand has at least one model that I like but not necessarily mean I would purchase. I promised myself to never get a Lexus but I ended up getting one. Why? I got a great deal on it. Bang for buck it definitely is worth it. I got my S550 for a great deal too but of course much more than the LS. Both suit my needs for different purposes. LS my daily driver to and from work.

However S4 made me think about something after his comment from another thread. Why have two luxury sedans when I can have one and an SL or something. I thought to myself. Perhaps I should get rid of one of these and get an R8. What do you think about that S4? Sound good?

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 9:59:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Agent, I want an R8, myself... we could order two. LOL.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 3:23:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

so what's the purpose of the GS-F?

all the GS cars are only alternatives to each other according to you. toyota is smart. they make alternatives to COMPETITORS not THEIR OWN CARS. so which COMPETITOR is the GS450 hybrid an alternative to?

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 7:45:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I see they're still loading the GS down with cement in these tests.

You'll see trunk space and braking (like we can't disprove that) are the only categories that the GS significantly lost in. Every other one it equalled or cleaned up. Funny, the GS has the smallest turning circle, yet lost in the turning circle category. Only in Germany.

Poor fuel economy outside urban areas (a smaller diesel outdoing a gas engine on the highway, surprise surprise). Well, how come the others weren't faulted for poor economy in urban areas especially since the GS beat the Audi in overall tested fuel consumption.

No point in mentioning CO2 and the fact the GS has the biggest displacement GAS engine.

Did anyone really expect anything other than a German car to win in this?

Here's the English version.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php%3Fartikel_id%3D14088&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTest%2BDiesel%2Bgegen%2BHybrid%2B%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/16/2007 11:47:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

^^Hahaha.

— LexusNumberOne4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 11:01:26 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I'd rather be an Audi/Lexus owner than some sad, pathetic fool who dreams of owning a BMW on a website, and bashes cars that are worth twice his income...

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 3:26:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

i thought the gs was more of a bmw 7 series, audi a8 s-class competitior, however i am amazed that audi doesnt have the price as a + and i cant believe when they wrote its not comfortable

— Audi4Life (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 5:54:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Hooray for diesel! This is the short term answer and developing hybrid from there will be awesome. Hybrid-gasoline is not the answer. Bring on the diesels to the US!

— THESCOOTER (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 9:53:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Annoying...

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 3:25:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

enthusiast,
The GS450h, which is top of the line, outsells the M5 (the only 5 that can outrun the GSh). The GSh makes up 10% of GS sales, the 550i is 13% of the 5-series. Yeah, it's a major flop. The M5 is only 3% of sales.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/05/01/046220.html
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/04/03/042379.html

But I like how everyone conveniently sidestepped when I pointed out the GS lost in the turning circle category eventhough it had the smallest turning radius. And they complain about it having poor highway economy eventhough it beat the smaller displacement A6.

I just noticed they said the GSh has poor load capacity but its only 10kg lower than the A6's, but the GSh starts off 20kg heavier, so technically the GS' chassis can hold more weight. Not a mention of it as an Audi negative.

Atleast they acknowledged the GS's high price is due to all the features it comes standard with. How this translates into a negative is beyond me.

I wonder if they scored any points for total range? If so, I hope they took into account the E320 has a 21.1 gallon tank vs the GS' 17.2 tank.

The Germans have trunks not 2x the size yet the get over 2x the points. The GS clearly outperforms the other cars, but only gets a measly 3 extra points.

The Germans don't lose any points for having their cars charged literally 2x the tax per year. As well, it seems like the GS has the lowest maintenance costs too considering it has a 15,000km interval (only 2K shy of the Germans). This 2K kms must explain why the GS lost 5 points in the maintenance category.

It's so blatant it isn't even funny anymore.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/17/2007 7:12:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

enthusiast,
Didn't look at my links as usual. 5-series sales in N.A. this year are on pace for just under 40K units. They're actually 3000 units behind from the same time last year.

Did you hear me say anything about handling? Trust me, Toyota is quite happy GS sales are catching the 5.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 12:09:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

My error, just over 40K 5-series cars.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 12:16:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

JRobUSC mentioned some mark-ups on Lexus vs. BMW cars. It really does not matter if one mark-up is slightly greater than another. The Lexus dealers that I've met are more reluctant to give discounts because they feel that the MSRP on their cars is lower than that of their German competitors. I buy cars only on a cost plus basis so it is net dealer cost that I am concerned with and not the MSRP or the dealer discount. In practice, and generally speaking, if you convert that into a discount off the MSRP, I find that it is easier to find a bigger discount on a German car than a Japanese car even if the German car has a slightly lower mark-up. The best deals were to be had half a century ago in the days when the dealer price was 22% less than list price and the dealer received a 3% holdback on top of that (i.e. total dealer discount of 25% on a domestic vehicle). Dealer discounts have steadily eroded over time due to extreme competitive forces in the industry.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 12:52:18 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

enthusiast,
New 5 series? Oh, you mean a refresh that stole the bumper off an old Camry.

If it's not a factory taking a month off it's because they changed the design of the wheels. Keep the excuses coming.

The new and old 5 look the same, a pos is still a pos, it's just a different day.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 1:05:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

What next, everyone's waiting for the diesels that won't be sold until BMW figures out a way to staple on 6 filters?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 1:06:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

this site is becoming way too fan-boy based, there is no objectivity or reasoning in what most ppl on this site say, and i think it comes from the lexus fans who give out bait for the german fans can bite.

lets look at cars properly

— aussiecarnut (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 4:56:13 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

these results are quite predictable. how else could lexus REALLY fare in this comparison?

you can't help but notice lexus coming on last over and over again. in all but consumer reports.

so, clearly EVERY car magazine is biased, cause consumer reports was sent from the heavens.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 11:27:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sailor,
Why are you talking about HP? Diesels always brag about having 800ft.lbs of torque that never get used.

What's pathetic is that the GS450h is just as fast, if not faster than the V8 550i which has a little more horsepower and a lot less mileage.

Why don't you price out a loaded 5 (any 5-series) and compare it to the GSh? Everyone seems to forget these German cars are pretty much stripped down.

And no, the GS lost its points because its turning circle was too small, its price was too expensive for Europeans (eventhough it only comes loaded) and beause it shows how far behind the Japanese have left them.

Veirder-what? This is what I'm referring to, and its measured in kg, not litres.
<<<Unloaded weight/additional load>>>

And if you want to claim the car is faster, post a road test. Like this test of the 550i that shows its slower than BMW's claims.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=116445
If the Germans would quit loading down the GSh, they'd get times like this too.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109609
The GSh is far from being the sluggish car you wish it was.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/18/2007 7:01:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I'm sad. Come on Lexus. Win one German comparison! Your legions of adoring fans demand it!!! If you don't win a German comparison soon, I will never buy a Lexus again! Forget quality, forget badge snobbery, forget luxury, forget a high-output gas-electric hybrid going up against economy diesels. None of that matters!!! Just win a German comparison test, NOW!!!

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 5/19/2007 5:35:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Bullcrap Sailor,
You know I've posted comparisons showing the GSh has nearly identical milieage to the 530i and can smoke every 5 except the M. But hey, if they can't afford an M or a GSh, they'll just have to settle for a crappy engine with some seats bolted onto it and call it a 5xxi.

About your Autobild article. The Germans must not be able to drive seing as how the Americans can consistently get the low to mid 5sec range from the GSh. Odd that the Germans are able to match the Americans in 0-60 when it comes to a German car though. Very odd indeed.

But here, look at these that I've already posted before.
E320 Bluetec - 24mpg mostly highway
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=118927/pageNumber=1
E320 CDI - 26mpg mostly highway
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=102283
GS450h 26mpg on the highway
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=4479
GS450h 25mpg mostly highway, says would've been higher if he did more city driving.
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadtest,view,LEXUS.spy?artid=72408&pg=2
An early Edmunds test, 22mpg during 300 miles of testing. The driver notes you'd need a V8 with 14mpg to get the same performance (hmmm, kind of like the 550i).
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109609/pageNumber=1

But I don't need to repeat myself over and over because I know you already know this, you just refuse to accept it.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/19/2007 11:29:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Did you read anything I wrote?
I knew you'd try to point it out (I have an Edmunds link for the Bluetec, CDI and GSh)? I included extras to show that the GS can be tested better by other road tests.

C&D shows only a .3 sec difference in 0-60.
Your Road&Track is nothing more than a 1 paragraph opinion reinforcing that the GSh can keep up w/ the 550i while giving better mileage. Have a real link?

You're just pissed the GSh gives the best of both worlds. 550i when optioned out is the same price as the GSh.
Are you sure the turbo 535i is faster than a 550i? BMW doesn't think so, and the mileage isn't that much different from the 550i.

Only ppl who are compensating need the extra extension that only a V8 gives them, until they pull up next to a V10/V12 of course.

Running away again? We haven't even touched on the emissions aspect yet, another area where hybrids clean up.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2007 1:55:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

What?

Where did I say it wasn't worth mentioning? 0.3 shows it didn't exactly blow the GSh away. To me, anything under 0.5 is not worth mentioning.

Keep on trying.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2007 2:33:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1