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Latest French Study Slams Hybrid Trend As A Misinformed Craze

Agent009 submitted on 02/11/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 8:59 AM
from: puregreencars.com

[112] user comments | category: Misc News

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Latest French Study Slams Hybrid Trend As A Misinformed Craze

Jean-Jacques Chanaron Research Director within the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) and Chief Scientific Advisor at the Grenoble School of Management and Julius Teske at Grenoble, question strongly whether the current acceptance of hybrid cars particularly in the USA, suggesting that they aren't a good sustainable way to save the planet and will prevent other technologies from developing.

Writing in the Inderscience publication International Journal of Automotive Technology and Management, they suggest that the adoption of HEVs might even slow development of more sustainable fuel-cell powered electric vehicles.

Indeed, Inderscience go so far as to say there is a "misinformed craze for hybrid vehicles especially in the USA”, and increasingly in Japan and Europe, and potentially in China, could represent a red light for more innovative technologies, such as viable fuel-cell cars that can use sustainably sourced fuels, such as hydrogen.

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EnnNorak - 2/11/2008 10:49:17 AM

+1 Boost

Don't be silly cptamazing, the French make wonderful comfy car seats and know how to enjoy women and wine. I completely agree with this study as hybrids involve lugging around heavy battery packs that are very costly to replace.

The French are probably world leaders in nuclear energy which is nice clean energy.

reply to this comment

GreenPlease - 2/11/2008 10:49:23 PM

+1 Boost

Considering your statement that the French are probably world leaders in nuclear energy, wouldn't it be wise for them to pursue PHEVs for their vehicle infrastructure? Its a match made in heaven. Those nuclear plants (they make up ~80% of the country's energy supply) have massive amounts of off peak capacity that is just begging to find its way into a battery.

According to the idiot that did this study, we should be using that off peak electricity to electrolyze water to produce hydrogen (and pay a massive friggin energy penalty in the process). Then we should distribute that hydrogen through a pipeline system (which doesn't exist and will cost big $$$ to build, while they/we already have power lines). Then we should store the hydrogen in expensive high pressure carbon kevlar tanks (real environmentally friendly, have a fleet of thermoset plastic tanks that aren't remotely recyclable running around with high pressure hydrogen that is constantly leaking through)

When will people get this these facts?

1. Hydrogen is an (inefficient) energy carrier.
2. Hydrogen tunnels. Unless you store it chemically, you will constantly leak H and therefore your energy.
3. Hydrogen embrittles. Any metals that are to come in contact with the hydrogen have to be specially made so that they won't prematurely fail.

About batteries:

1. They are extremely efficient at energy in to energy out operations.
2. Modern chemistries do away with energy density concerns.
3. Modern designs do away with power density concerns (if you can't differentiate this from #2, you don't deserve to discuss the topic).
4. Modern chemistries are capable of upwards of 2,000 cycles.
5. There is not a lithium shortage, esp when it is to be used with sulfur or titanate. There also exist numerous other viable chemistries that use much more abundant elements (such as lead).

GreenPlease - 2/11/2008 10:52:38 PM

+1 Boost

While I'm at it, I should throw in that the French aren't really leaders. If anything, I would say Canada is a leader. Their original CANDU reactor design was quite inspired and its successor is supposed to drastically improve the economics of its fuel cycle (which was pretty good to begin with, it used natural uranium).

Don't hit me with that BS about the ITER and France's involvement. They all know that nothing will come of it except some really huge superconducting magnets.

t_bone - 2/11/2008 9:34:29 AM

+6 Boost

My initial reaction is that...were these guys sleeping during their high school physics class?

But then again, getting away from the engineering for a second, if we see a lot more hybrid SUV's getting 25mpg because it is "good enough" instead of of looking for 40, 50, and 60 mpg in a sensible-sized vehicle, perhaps this study has a valid point.

I'd have to say that a society where the average person drove a Civic rather than driving a hybrid SUV and being all smug about it, is one I'd rather live in.

reply to this comment

EnnNorak - 2/11/2008 10:59:02 AM

-4 Boost

Ya gotta love guys like "t bone" -- let them drive Civics or smaller death traps and leave more gasoline available for the rest of us. Alberta oil sands and Canadian and U.S. coal reserves will sustain us for at least 100 years. Technologies to convert coal into gasoline exist today. Cheap solar energy is just around the corner (what's more renewable than that?).

Water vapor is the most abundant green-house gas. CO2 can be sucked out of the atmosphere by planting more trees. Aluminum and carbon fiber will make it possible for us to drive lighter cars without sacrificing comfortable interior room.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/11/2008 11:55:06 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Civic, death trap? What are you on?

Rupert - 2/11/2008 12:20:45 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Oil sands are terrible - they are expensive, hugely polluting and dangerous.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 1:08:15 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Oil sand is bad (hugely inefficient and VERY expensive), solar power is just incredibly insufficient (200 W of radiation pr sq m at high noon and 40% efficiency = 80 W/m2 at highest radiation and coal... Ohh please, that is just stupid...

We need sustainable energy sources... Like fusion power, unfortunately, that is still a far way off, so we NEED to do something about consumption... AND BTW: The US and Canadian production can not cope with peak consumption during winter months, so you guys are SOOOO dependant on foreign oil... So you better start cutting consumption!

OHH... And before you start calling cars death traps just because they are small, you should do some research... Because modern european and asian crash safety designs are often far ahead of those huge american cars guys like you (EnnNorak) drive around... But ofcause, they're not american, so how can they be any good, right?

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 10:19:35 AM

-1 Boost

Not having actually read their report, it is hard to determine what they "STUDIED" to come to this conclusion. Have they studied the amount of oil saved, have they studied the lowered emissions, have they studied FCVs that use hybrid technology in their powerplants? Sounds like a lot of sour grapes from an industry that is missing the boat on the latest technology.

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Agent009 - 2/11/2008 10:51:05 AMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Hybrid is no longer the latest technology.

Compared to the new crop of diesels a gasoline hybrid falls short as car size increases.

Especially in anything larger than a Prius (arguably the best of the Hybrids).

However a diesel hybrid may have a higher purpose, because it benefit from the best of both worlds.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 11:54:06 AM

-3 Boost

If you think that by (finally) adding particulate filters, urea injectors and low sulfur fuel that diesel has somehow leapfroged the technological jump made by hybrids, well that's certianly an argument that can be had.

So I will just say wait until the next gen of hybrids. Lighter, cheaper, more efficient, more powerful. I know I hate when people say, just wait for the next...., but this is a technology still in its infancy, yet already providing superior benefits. Diesel has been around for 100+years, before anyone has begun trying these cleaner technologies. So if diesel gets a good year or two when these cleaner diesels (finally) arrive, good on them. But it will be short lived until the next batch of hybrids. Then what do diesel mfrs have left up their sleeves??? And will it take another 100 years for the next leap?

S4cabriofoxone - 2/11/2008 11:57:50 AMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Considering that new diesels are more efficient, faster and even as clean, I don't think there's any argument to be had.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 1:02:28 PM

-1 Boost

New, cleanER diesels are not nearly as clean as hybrids. Cleaner diesels finally meet the same emissions standards as regular gasoline engine vehicles, not advanced hybrids. They (by nature of high mpg) have decent CO2 emissions compared to a gasoline car of comparable size and power, but even the most advanced diesel technology does not compare to the clean tailpipe emissions of hybrids.

Faster-that just depends on the application. The GS450h is much faster than the MBZ E-class diesel(about a second faster to 60). It, of course, sacrifices some mpg for this, tho it does not sacrifice its SULEV rating.

More efficient- If the Jetta comes in at over 50mpg, I'll believe it. Since it is smaller than the Prius, it should achieve markedly superior mpg, if it is truly more efficient. We'll see.

So yes, an argument can be MADE that the new cleaner diesels are superior to gen3 HSD, but the vedict is still out on whether the argument can be WON.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 1:21:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Could you please prove that? Because once a hybrid runs out of electric juice or gets over the electric speed, the gasoline engine will cut in, and due to the lower effeciency of a gasoline engine, it will need to burn more atoms of carbon (bound in different carbomolecules) to produce the same power thus emmiting more CO2/hp.

Then there is the matter of particulate matter (no pun intended). First of, PM from cars only make up about 3% of ALL PM in the atmosphere so whether cars really have any real impact on the health issues linked to PM is highly debateable.
Anyway a non-filtered diesel emmits about five times the PM of an equivalent gasoline car (what's that? gasoline cars emmit PM... Yes they do!), however the newest PM-filters remove between 95 and 99% of ALL The PM making the dirtiest PM-filtered diesels far cleaner than a equivalent gasoline engine can ever be(since you can't fit PM-filters to those)

Then there is NOx, once again, an unfiltered diesel might emmit more than a gasoline engine, however a filtered diesel is far cleaner than a gasoline engine can be since the filters on diesels can't be fitted to gasoline engines as they don't reach high enough exhaust temperatures...

Now, do you have any statistics showing how much of the time hybrids are on electric power? Because without statistics like those, you can't possibly prove that hybrids are cleaner.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 2:19:24 PM

0 Boost

"once a hybrid runs out of electric juice or gets over the electric speed, the gasoline engine will cut in, and due to the lower effeciency of a gasoline engine, it will need to burn more atoms of carbon (bound in different carbomolecules) to produce the same power thus emmiting more CO2/hp."

Sailor, your assumption is based on the gasoline part of the hybrid vehicle's engine being grossly inefficient, which is a common misconception.

The Prius (obviously the best hybrid application) uses an Atkinson Cycle engine. "the Atkinson cycle, where the power stroke is longer than the compression stroke, is increasing in popularity due to the increase in fuel economy it provides." "By adjusting the linkage to allow a power stroke that is longer than the compression stroke, the engine can achieve greater efficiency than with the Otto cycle engine" (Wikipedia)

You are also assuming that hybrids must spend at inordinate amount of time utilizing only the gasoline engine, which is the kind of incorrect information that GM was trying to put out there when explaining that the Prius is a parallel, not serial hybrid. The fact is, the electric engine is almost always in use in the Prius (parallel), leading to high mpg and low emissions, and it also runs for short periods of time in only electric mode, where there are no emissions and of course off the charts mpg. I do not have the exact amount of time spent in each mode, it would be different for every driver. Rest assured, the electric motor in the Prius is almost always on (and it is always on in a parallel hybrid like the Civic.)

Back to emissions, regardless of how long the engine is in electric, gasoline powered or dual mode, hybrids earn SULEV emissions, emitting 10% of the standard emissions allowed by CARB. There are NO new cleaner diesels yet rated SULEV. Federally, the cleaner diesels will meet Tier 2 Bin 5, but that is just meeting the starndard. A T2B5 diesel is allowed to emit as much NOX as three and-a-half Priuses. Kudos to diesels for finally MEETING emissions standards.

So you can essentially win your argument because you are basing it on faulty facts.

Now let's add in the extra cost (and weight...since everyone is so concerned about the weight of hybrid batteries) of the new cleaner diesel engines, the added cost of the fuel, and the added energy required to produce diesel fuel.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 2:31:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Have you done anything to find out just how efficient the atkinson cycle actually makes the gasoline engine? And how efficient a high compression diesel engine is? The atkinson cycle only lands you a 10% increase in efficency... A otto cycle engine is about 25% efficient, so an atkinson cycle is about 28%...

The only reason no diesel cars have been tested to SULEV standards (in CALIFORNIA, the ONLY place where SULEV means anything) is because no NOx-filtered diesels have been tested there - yet... And it is the NOx standards that the diesels had a hard time getting below... And we are only talking about NOx, you forgot to mention that! CO2 is still the biggest culprit here...

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 3:09:23 PM

0 Boost

If any of these cleaner diesels were due to be CARB certified SULEV, we would know by now, just as we have been told for years now that they would be T2B5 certified. I'm not goin anywhere, so I'm willing to table that one until June when the first CA admissible diesels show up, but trust they will not be SULEV, maybe not even ULEV.

As for CO2, it is, of course, directly correlated to mpg. Therefore as the cleaner diesels have marginally higher mpg than a comparable gasoline engine, their CO2 emissions will indeed be lower. Show me a cleaner diesel that has higher mpg than a comparable hybrid.....you simply cannot. Therefore, hybrids are also better than cleaner diesels re:CO2.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 3:24:51 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 3:59:03 PM

0 Boost

GS450h, your choice:

BMW 535d or the Merc E320CDI (european version)

LS600h... Well, just about any full sized top of the line diesel will give you almost the same performance and a considerably better fuel economy...

As to the Prius, well... Just about every european hatchback has a diesel model which has at least the same fuel economy...

The Toyota Camry is easily beat by the Passat TDI BlueMotion... Among others

First of all, without your actual mpg, numbers you have not proved anything.

Second, in some of your head to heads, the comparison is not valid. Example....The 450h is much more powerful than the BMW and MBZ you are comparing it to. The 450h was designed to showcase high mpg with high performance. The 2 german cars sacrfice performance for mpg.

Comparing any of the hatchbacks to the Prius is way too vague. Give me some example of a real midsized diesel with 0-60 in around 10 seconds that gets 45-50 mpg.

Comparing the Camry hybrid to the Passat...which according to Car and Driver.."Volkswagen is waiting for the show unveiling to confirm suspicions that this Passat BlueMotion uses a 103-hp version of the 2.0-liter diesel engine" Wonder what the 0-60 is for that?

You can put a small engine in anything to beat a hybrid, but that's not a valid comparison.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 4:23:55 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Actually, the 535d has the same performance, but better fuel economy than the GS450h... Though it might be down a few horsepower...

As to the BlueMotion, if you had looked into it, will do 19.2 km/l, the Camry will do what? 14-15? You can get that from a 520D easily... And it will drive the socks right off the Camry... As will the 320d, the Ford Mondeo TDCi, the Passat 2.0 TDI, the Audi A4 2.0 TDI etc. etc. etc... The reason why I haven't included the MPG numbers is simply because I couldn't care less if you believe me... Check them out yourself if you want...

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 6:27:22 PM

0 Boost

535d 0-60 in...."BMW says 0-100 km/h or 62 mph takes just 6.5 seconds" (Autobloggreen) 1.3 seconds SLOWER than the GS.

I dont like wasting my time looking up this information for you either, but if I'm going to base an argument on facts and figures, I will at least take the time to do some research, so that I will not be proved wrong.

Now most of the other diesels you've listed are just random cars you threw out to make it seem like you have put more than a passing thought into your point. But none of them utilize the new cleaner diesels, they are from all different classes of vehicles, and you have shown no facts to back up the claims of superior fuel economy and/or performance in comparison to the models that you say they stack up well against.

The Camry Hybrid goes 0-60 in 8.6 seconds (edmunds), gets 33/34 (EPA 08 standadrds), seats five in comfort, is certified AT PZEV, for just over $25000. Can you really argue against numbers like that?? Can your Passat beat numbers like that??

This argument will never be just about mpg, hybrids have too many advantages to just compare mpg.

TheSailor - 2/12/2008 11:43:37 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Now... You are comparing european figures to american ones (which you can't as our figures are 0-62.5 and the meassureing standard is different)... Official european figures are 6.5 (automatic trans) for the 535d and 5.9 for the GS450h... That is less than anyone will be able to notice! What they will notice however is the fact that it does a combined cycle of 14.9 km/l... You know what the GS will do? 12.7!!!! And in germany, the GS is a whopping 5000€ ($7500) more! And you don't even get sat nav included in that price in the european version... for those extra bucks, you could option out the BMW and still have enough for a tune job which could easily bring it below the 5.9 and still retain a better fuel economy...

TheSailor - 2/12/2008 3:01:57 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

BTW:

Passat 2.0 TDI 170 DSG

0-100 kph(that is 62.5 mph, more than the Camry 0-60) in 8.6 seconds and a combined cycle consumption of 15.5 km/l... The Camry official estimate (Which have been found hard to reach according to what I hear) works out at 14.5 km/l... Less than the Passat in case you missed it!

So yes, "my" Passat can easily compete with that! But lets be honest, people buying the Camry hybrid is not looking for performance, and then the Passat will just completely kill the Camry hybrid with it's BlueMotion which has a combined consumption of 19.2 km/l! In a midsized sedan with all the creature comforts you can expect... Even the american premium on diesel can compensate for that in the Camry's favor!

TheSailor - 2/12/2008 3:21:32 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

BTWBTW: That PZEV is just silly... That just means that it doesn't pollute, once in a while... The Passat won't pollute if you declutch and turn of the engine while coasting... So that is basically a PZEV as well...

ALL of the cars I mentioned are fitted with PM-filters (wasn't that the stuff you guys claimed was so bad but haven't mentioned ever since the facts was layed out?)... They don't have NOx scrubbers, but that is because they live up to european standards, so ofcause the manufacturers won't include those (the US Jetta However will include either an adblue or passive SCR to remove the NOx and so will the Passat if they deside to sell the TDIs in the US)... Hydrocarbons... Well, in a modern diesel, they are virtually non-existant!

2ndbimmer - 2/11/2008 10:43:36 AM

-1 Boost

I agree to the fact that people are obsessing over hybrid vehicles. The mileage and power could be much stronger, but it isnt. I think the automotive industry needs to analyze all different sources of fuel. It cant hurt to have too many options for a consumer. Just like the housing market, there is so much out there and they keep building, that is why prices are diving!
What I dont understand is how people think we should have electric cars when california has rolling blackouts, what are they going to do?

reply to this comment

EnnNorak - 2/11/2008 11:09:10 AM

+2 Boost

California needs several dozen breeder-reactor-type nuclear power plants which burn up almost all of the nuclear fuel and the remaining nuclear waste can be safely stored in the Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Depository.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 11:55:09 AM

+1 Boost

I dont believe California has ever had a rolling blackout at night when one presumes most electric charging would take place.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 1:24:20 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

YES! Nuclear power is the way we have to get our electric power today! Unfortunately, all to many people still think that nuclear power is dangerous... There have been one actual accident since the very dawn of nuclear power which have resulted in nuclear radiation... 22 YEARS AGO!!! Move on and let us all benefit from the clean nuclear energy!

farabira1 - 2/11/2008 10:48:39 AM

+3 Boost

I don't get how any organization can make such an outrageous claim. Hybrid technology is still quite new and certainly there is great potential in this technology. I think there has been some crass assessment in this report. Total bogus.

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Agent009 - 2/11/2008 11:07:37 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I assume you are a skeptic?

EnnNorak - 2/11/2008 11:16:51 AM

0 Boost

farabira1, hybrid technology may be new but its hard to get away from the fact that hybrids involve the lugging around of expensive and heavy battery packs. I might consider a plug-in hybrid but only for strictly urban use and only if the economic and environmental cost to society of producing the electricity for recharging overnight is attractive. Recycling and or disposal of old battery packs is also an issue with hybrids.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 11:48:38 AM

-1 Boost

"lugging around of expensive and heavy battery packs"

This is such a tired argument. Every new technology starts out heavy and expensive. I presume you are old enough to remember older microwaves or VCRs.

Without enough of us early aadopters out there lugging around these heavy, expensive battery packs (while getting 45 mpg and emitting practically just water vapor), we wouldnt be 18 months away from lighter, cheaper versions. What will you fall back on when that happens?

S4cabriofoxone - 2/11/2008 12:02:20 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Not to mention how terrible those batteries are for the environment in the first place.

You're not emitting "practically water vapor" from your Pious, you know. Don't think your $hit doesn't smell.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 1:09:26 PM

0 Boost

Obviously I know that Prius tailpipe emissions are not practically water vapor. That was an exaggeration that apparently ruffled your feathers this morning. It was a use of hyperbole to point out the ridiculousness of the argument of lugging around all those expensive heavy battery packs. A ridiculous claim countered with my just as ridiculous water vapor assertion.

Lighten up.

Oh and the Pious comment, c'mon that is so tired, I expect more from you.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 1:14:06 PM

+1 Boost

And of course the batteries terrible for the environment argument..... Do you know how much of every part of a car is terrible for the environment? We should all walk. There is nothing significantly worse about a hybrid battery pack that is not way more than made up for in the efficiency gains realized during the operation of that (partially) battery operated vehicle. (And it's recyclable!!)

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 1:42:36 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

The GS450h battery pack weighs less than 70 kg... The GS450h weighs 180 kg more than the V8 equipped GS430 though that has a bigger engine, so electric motor, CVT and auxiliary systems adds more weight than the batteries, so all those advancements in batteries can't possibly (unless they invent a negative gravity battery) save more than 70 kg... and there are no breakthroughs in CVTs or electric motor efficiencies just around the corner... So hybrids will still have to lug all that extra weight around for a few more years...

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 2:31:25 PM

0 Boost

yeah the GS450h has a real hard time lugging around the extra weight

First of all, the 450h weighs only 86 kg (189 lbs) more than the 460.

Meanwhile, it does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds, while getting 22/25mpg city/hwy (08 EPA standards), rated SULEV

The GS460 ggoes 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, gets 17/24 mpg and is only rated ULEV.

And it costs just $2300 for all that. Pretty freakin amazing if you ask me.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 2:34:10 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

That is because the GS460 is heavier than the GS430 was... And it still packs a V8, not a V6...

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 3:11:57 PM

+1 Boost

Oh, so it is not convenient to your argument that I compare the GS450h to the NEW GS460. So sorry about that. Sure, let's compare it to a car using the old, outdated engine. If I did that, the difference in mpg and power would be even greater, again, more than making up for any weight difference.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 3:31:10 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Actually... I can see what you're saying... So maybe I should compare it to the GS300 which also sports a V6... That way we'll see just how much the V6 GS450h added during the hybrid treatment (remember, this was never about what the GS added, but how much the hybrid system adds to the weight)...

GS300 curb weight: 3536 lbs
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2006/lexus/gs300/specifications/

GS450h curb weight: 4134 lbs
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2007/lexus/gs450h/specifications/

Now that is 600 lbs or roughly 300 kg! No diesel engine adds even 1/5th of that over the gasoline equivalent... And a diesel engine is still cheaper to produce than a full hybrid system!

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 4:09:01 PM

0 Boost

fine, and then for that extra weight, compared to the V6, you get
0-60 in 5.2 instead of 5.7
22/25 mpg instead of 19/27 (GS350 slightly better on hwy)
SULEV instead of ULEV.

Plus a lot more standard features add some of that weight as well.

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 4:25:34 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

What features are those?! Which features will add anything even close to 300 kg to the car?!? That is the weight of a family of four!

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 6:08:10 PM

0 Boost

Now you're comparing it to the outdated GS300. Lexus.com quotes a weight difference between the 450h and the 350 of 154 kgs. The CVT might be part of it, different wheels, brakes, who knows, they dont break down the weights of each component. You're arguing over minute details, but your main point of these huge weight disparities is way off.

1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 11:56:31 AM

+1 Boost

well that helped, thank Josh.

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TheSailor - 2/11/2008 1:46:19 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

LOL... You really know what you are talking about, huh josh?

Who are the french bavarians? Bavaria is a state in Germany...

If you are for real, you need to get a little education, if you are just here to mock lexus fans, you need to get lost, because this is getting old real fast!

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Rupert - 2/11/2008 2:38:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Josh has clearly never heard of Bugatti or Facel Vega.

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Rupert - 2/11/2008 2:41:05 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Europe is actually slightly bigger than the US...

I just hope you never get a passport.

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Htay7500 - 2/11/2008 3:57:33 PM

+2 Boost

josh: just to let you know, Im a year and half older than you. and bugatti isn't german, its an arm of VW AG

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Rupert - 2/11/2008 5:23:04 PMView My AgentSpace

+6 Boost

Bugatti is French - the company was founded in Alsace, in France.
End of story.
And it is Facel Vega, not Vega. Facel Vega made some of the most desirable cars in the world at one point. Before you start incorrectly correcting people I suggest you do a bit of learning.
And I'm only 3 years older than you.

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1995e34 - 2/12/2008 11:16:36 PM

+1 Boost

josh rocks.

vega from streetfighter...

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Whelan - 2/11/2008 1:45:12 PM

+5 Boost

Latest US Study Slams French for rudeness and pompous attitudes.

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Agent009 - 2/11/2008 4:36:50 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

But they make great cheese!

TheSailor - 2/11/2008 1:49:03 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

LOL... So because the report is french, it can't possibly be right?

Hey, I don't like the surrender monkeys either, but that doesn't mean that they can't be right... Also, this isn't something they are publishing just to piss of the japanese, since PSA have been working on diesel hybrids for several years and are expected to launch both PEugeot and Citroen models with highly efficient and cheap diesel hybrids within two years...

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1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 3:15:21 PM

0 Boost

No the modern diesel does not necessarily get better mileage and CO2 emissions than a comparable hybrid. You cant just make a statement like that with no stats to back it up.

In England, where they track CO2 emissions very thoroughly (so the stats are easier to compare), the Prius is only beat in CO2 emissions by the tiny Polo. And there is simply NO midsized, full feature diesel that matches the Prius in mpg.

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TheSailor - 2/11/2008 3:32:56 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

The Prius should be compared to hatchbacks, not a midsized car... Compare those to the Camry hybrid instead... I can make diesel hatchbacks look better than they are aswell if I compare them to the Camry aswell...

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1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 4:11:04 PM

-1 Boost

htachback or not, the Prius is mid-sized, not an economy car or compact as it is so often compared to by the Euro-inclined folks.

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Rupert - 2/11/2008 5:24:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Toyotamarc - I don't know the US situation but here in Europe the Prius is classed as a car the size of a Golf, Corolla, Civic or Focus, not the next size up. Hence why the Prius is seen as expensive with not that amazing economy, when rivals will do a similar job for less money.

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1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 5:29:19 PM

+1 Boost

I'm not going to argue this point anymore today, because I and others have argued it for years, and the Euro-centric folks just dont accept it. You cant base anb argument on two different set of assumptions. If you want to believe the Prius is the same size/class as a Golf or Corolla, then you will never accept that it has good fuel economy. Period. I'm done with this one.

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Rupert - 2/11/2008 5:30:06 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

The Prius is in fact beaten on the Co2 front by the Mini Cooper D, Seat Ibiza and the Polo.
And here, official proof that the Prius is part of the "Small Family" class in Britain. This is a government website.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/ActOnCO2/index.php?q=best_on_co2_rankings
Click small family, and there it is, the Prius with the Focus, Megane, A3 etc.
Or you can click "All" to compare CO2 emissions. Prius is joint 2nd, Civic joint 3rd with about 10 other cars, all of which cost less money.

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1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 6:32:43 PM

-1 Boost

Those are tiny specks of cars with miniscule engines, and they are the only ones that can beat the Prius. They better beat the Prius on CO2, or something is wrong with the laws of physics. I cant believe I still have to make this point.

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1970toyotamarc - 2/11/2008 6:43:07 PM

0 Boost

Mid-Engine, then you are basing your entire argument on one vehicle, and I think you have posted that Autobild article about 30 times. The LS600hL was not designed to get Prius or even Camry like mpg. It does, however still go 0-60 in under 6 seconds, get low 20s mpg, is SULEV and is huge. This is no economy car getting those numbers. So we know that the mpg will be slighhtly lower and the CO2 slightly higher than in the diesels you listed, but how do they compare on performance and emissions?

BTW, I looked up your autoexpress link, those numbers couldnt be more bogus. Lexus 0-60 in 7 seconds, Audi mpg 31.5? Please. They must have been driving the Lexus up a hill.

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1970toyotamarc - 2/12/2008 12:01:27 PM

-2 Boost

I will not get into back and forth finding reviews for or against cars. The automotive press has made it perfectly clear over the past couple years that they prefer diesels, air quality be damned. Subjectively for them diesels, German vehicles and anything not Toyota will prevail. These are all subjective views. You have this bookmarked set of reviews that you keep referring to to prove your point.

You want real world objective numbers, dont trust autoweek, go to fuelecononmy.gov, where hundreds of real world examples are sent in. You have to presume some reposndents are lying or inaccurate, but the overall mpg for the 2006 Jetta TDI (compact, smaller than a Prius) is 41.1 mpg, while getting an air quality rating of 1 ouut of 10. Prius averages 47.7 mpg by over 100 respondents, with an air quality score of 8 out of 10 (9.5 in CA), and it has more interior room.

Hybrid and Toyota fans have long given up on the mainstream media, so pulling out those same reviews 10 times a week is only preaching to the choir.

And you really reveal your true colors when you pull out the NObel Prize list. It's quite shameless actually, and it smacks of your Euro/Anglo centrism. A white, European, Anglo awards committee bestows honors on white, Anglo Europeans and Americans, and we should somehow be surprised. I cant believe people on this site keep letting you get away with your b.s.

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Whelan - 2/11/2008 3:42:47 PM

+4 Boost

Yes I was childish with my comment, I do apologize for that. But I just feel each time one of these reports comes out, people flock to it's every word. I could skew numbers to make a Hummer H2 sound environmental. You have to take each of these with some salt and mix and match to get a real observation. Not to mention that Europe seems to rely more on smaller engines, smaller cars, and more diesels than hybrids.

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huu76 - 2/11/2008 10:02:54 PM

-1 Boost

Sailor,
The US only imports 25% of its oil (basically from Canada). The US guards the Middle East because Europe doesn't have the balls to do it themselves and they're too busy being pushed around by the Russians. You don't think China will jump right into Iraq if the US left? (France was secretly diddling there even when the good for noting UN said no...maybe...don't make use ask again)
The world would be a better place if the Europeans learned to shutup and look after themselves so North America can live in peace and prosperity.

Hybrids can be used efficiently with hydrogen until hydrogen is as cheap as...I'd say water but that's innaccurate.

I don't blame France for not liking hybrids though, after all, aren't half their car sales diesel? Just like the diesel lovin' Germans.

Midengine,
You might want to try using a different source someday. We all know a diesel will usually beat a gas engine on the highway, espcially if the gas engine is hauling extra weight. You try driving 1000km in the city and see how quickly you get bored. Me thinks they tried to pull a fast one and strictly ran them on the highway to pad the numbers.

Toyotamarc,
No, they just typically load up the Japanese cars with cement. Can't let the home team lose you know.

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TheSailor - 2/12/2008 1:23:11 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Hey huuey... do you remember us asking for your help "securing our oil"... No? Me neither... you know why? BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED! So I think the world would be a better place if canadians could learn to shut up and be glad the US take care of them... Even though only about 20% of their oil comes from canada... IF you combine the three middle eastern countries Saudi, Iraq and Kuwait, the US, imports more oil from there than from Canada... WOW! You know why? Because that damned oil sand is just so hard to extract anything from making the oil more expensive...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

Ohh... And I almost forgot; All that Iraqi oil, you know, most of it is going to good old america (well, north and south america even)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Iraq/OilExports.html

You know, even though we are more people over here, that consumption in the US (and canada) is justso darn hard to keep up with with our puney oil consumption (roughly half pr capita)...

French manufacturers are working on their own hybrids, expect them to be out by 2009 (So I guess they don't hate hybrids that much after all then, huh?)

The point at which hydrogen will get cheaper than gasoline is when they start producing it from solar energy (electrolysis) or from algae... And by the time they'll be producing large enough amounts of that, they'll have those snazy low temperature fuel cells the germans are working on... The problem today, which you already know but refuse to mention, is that hydrogen is produced in a very inefficient method using natural gas... And that means that you produce a lot of pollution just making the hydrogen (CO2) and add to that the NOx from the hydrogen engine, you have yourself a real dirty clean machine... But yes, I don't doubt it is possible to make a "hy-hybrid", but we have the issue that hydrogen powered ICEs will produce HUGE amounts of NOx which is at least as bad as huge amounts of CO2... If not worse! Then ofcause, there is the possibility of a low compression hydrogen ICE which would mean much lower combustion temperatures thus producing less NOx, but then they'll be quite inefficient... The same goes for lean mixture systems... Both requiring larger hydrogen tanks... And we all know just how easy it is to store hydrogen, right?

You also forget that I have never disagreed that there is potential in hybrid technology! My gripe was with the implementation of that technology! I have acknowledged several times that a hybrid system will increase your total mechanical efficiency grade, the problem is that instead of coupling it to the most efficient ICE (the diesel), toyota chose to couple it to the way less efficient gasoline ICE since the american public is more friendly towards that technology... You know why? BECAUSE TOYOTA IS A COMPANY ENGAGED IN MAKING MONEY, NOT SAVING THE ENVIRONMENT!
The second part, the hydrogen engine is just stup

huu76 - 2/11/2008 10:14:30 PM

0 Boost

Rupert, maybe you can shed some light onto this but it appears the UK does not get any V8 diesels from the 3 stooges.

BMW 730d
MB S320TDI
A6 3.0 TDI (no A8 diesel).

Is it because they're so good and the Germans felt you guys are unworthy, or did British law ban them from being sold? Or are British people unwilling to fork over so much money for something that might as well be burning coal?

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Rupert - 2/12/2008 7:56:35 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

huu - we don't get the