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Lexus IS-F might have 415hp only

SupraNeverBack submitted on 08/06/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 1:24 PM
from: www.autospies.com

[105] user comments | category: Rumors

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Lexus IS-F might have 415hp only

Attended the 2007 Taste of Lexus yesterday @Irvine. IS-F was there to display and the car looks hot in person. But the Lexus representative said 2008 IS-F will have 415hp, ONE hp more than M3. That will be sad if the number is true because I am hoping for 430~450hp. ^0^

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david989 - 8/6/2007 2:39:46 PM

Show Comment -21 Boost

BentleyGT - 8/6/2007 3:20:48 PM

+8 Boost

Omg! its like so.... "UNDERPOWERED". A Mercedes C63 AMG will kill it instantly, It wouldnt even beat the R63 AMG Mercedes van lol.

ICON - 8/7/2007 1:22:17 AM

+4 Boost

Sport...stop being an apologist for David989...he is annoying and so are you.

enthusiastx11 - 8/6/2007 3:15:19 PM

+5 Boost

huh? this doesn't make sense.

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BentleyGT - 8/6/2007 3:35:38 PM

+2 Boost

Dont worry, he's just blowing steam and nonsence because its UNDERPOWERED!

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Agent009 - 8/6/2007 3:40:16 PMView My AgentSpace

-8 Boost

I agree the 8 speed transmission can allow more advantageous gearing. In the right situation the IS-F could be potentially faster in 0-60 but I doubt the gearing will allow it to keep in advantage in the 1/4 mile.

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Brembo - 8/6/2007 2:58:00 PM

+6 Boost

Does it matter?

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enthusiastx11 - 8/6/2007 3:16:00 PM

+3 Boost

who?

BMW995 - 8/6/2007 2:58:00 PM

+13 Boost

I have an '07 IS, and although I'm very pleased with the car, there are some refinement issues that need to be addressed if this car plans to compete with/exceed the BMW 3 series. I assume this will also apply to the IS-F.
The throttle is drive-by-wire and is not quite linear; sometimes it gives too much throttle, other times not quite enough. Needs some refinement and work.
The steering is lacking some road feel - an area where BMW excels.
The brakes are very strong, but the feel is not quiet up to BMW standards.
Should I have bought a BMW 3 series instead of the IS?
Heck no! A BMW 3 equipped the same as my IS would have cost $9,000 more than the IS in my city with only one BMW dealer. Also I don't mean to be too particular since the IS is a fine driving car that 95% of the competentcy of the BMW 3.

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SupraNeverBack - 8/6/2007 3:06:05 PM

-8 Boost

Unfortunately, the new M3 sucks at both, steering feel and brakes according to all the reviews by far.

enthusiastx11 - 8/6/2007 3:17:52 PM

+4 Boost

dear supra:

really? it sucks? funny, no journalist has referenced a competitor to the M3 that does it better.

pushrod27 - 8/6/2007 6:37:07 PM

0 Boost

You are a moron, Supra. No one ever said that ANYTHING about the new M3 sucks. They simply said that the new car feels slightly softer than the old one, a dissapointing set-up. The new M3 is still the benchmark in this class.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/8/2007 12:57:20 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Supra, you amaze me. I'm not sold on the new M3, either, but not one single review has said it "sucks!" Ha! Far from it! It may not have the incredible steering of the RS4, C63 or even last-gen M3 (all of which are pretty funny, because Audi and Mercedes used to be so far behind), but it's still a BMW, and as such its competence is inherent.

The M3 will certainly be the front-runner for now, but whether the excellent new C63 AMG, already-excellent but soon-to-be-updated RS4 or the question mark IS-F become new leaders remains to be seen.

JRobUSC - 8/9/2007 1:29:35 PM

+2 Boost

$9k more? Are you comparing an IS250 to a 335i?

SupraNeverBack - 8/6/2007 3:14:47 PM

-2 Boost

At least I was not happy to hear that. Lexus should know that now its competition is no longer the low power M3 but the power monsters like C63 and GT-R.

It is not that 415hp isn't enough, but for the first F, it should be better than that. Otherwise, it won't any attention outside Lexus fans.

So I hope the number is wrong. :)

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enthusiastx11 - 8/6/2007 3:20:01 PM

-3 Boost

why are you so obsessed with power?
as much as i appreciate the enormous power of the AMGs--they typically don't offer the handling or control of M cars.

what's the point of power without the ability to use it? on this matter, lexus has a long way to go. they go fast in a straight line to can't handle for shit.

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SupraNeverBack - 8/6/2007 3:36:29 PM

-2 Boost

I've explained why above.

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zorbeeze - 8/6/2007 6:18:24 PM

+7 Boost

To say Lexus cars can't handle for shit is avery ignorant comment. You should drive one and then you'll know.
As for the HP on the IS-F, who cares. It's good enough to compete.

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pushrod27 - 8/6/2007 6:41:42 PM

-7 Boost

Lexus is smarter than you. That's why they know that they're chasing the M3. Again, why the hell would a company target the car in 3rd. place? The C's aggressive new horsepower stat is only a desperate attempt to take some attention away from the M3. The M3 and RS4 are the cars to beat here.
Why do you constantly rag on BMW? you sound stupid. And yet you love the Supra, Toyota's most legendary sports car (at least in the States), a car that wasn't popular enough to justify existence after 1997 (or whenever they stopped building those things.) Toyota wishes it could build a sports car as impressive and successful as the M3.

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S4cabriofoxone - 8/8/2007 12:59:18 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

I would say the C63, RS4 AND M3 are all the "cars to beat." When the M3 sedan comes out (and yes, I've seen spyshots, it's coming), the death match between the three will be something I'm waiting for.

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JRobUSC - 8/9/2007 1:33:43 PM

+2 Boost

power, power power, that's all that matters, right? Since when is "only" 414hp no good? The old M3 was less powerful than the C55, it still never lost in a comparison to one. My biggest concern about the M3 is that BMW has made the 335i sedan and coupe so good that I don't know whether the M is worth the premium. Hell, you could get a 135i, chip it, and run rings around ALL these cars and still have $30k in your pocket.

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enthusiastx11 - 8/6/2007 3:14:36 PM

-1 Boost

did they share any details on torque or weight distribution?

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SupraNeverBack - 8/6/2007 3:18:23 PM

-1 Boost

No other detail.

IS3andME - 8/6/2007 3:45:33 PM

-1 Boost

Please, 415 HP, let me tell you, not even the Lexus Reps know what the IS-F is putting out. Many of the US Lexus dealerships were still thinking in the beginning of the year that the IS-F was going to be called the IS500. Lexus knows it has to outgun the M3 or RS4, and being that the RS4 has been announced with with a possible 450 HP, Lexus just might tune to engine to slightly overshoot that. Plus it will out-torque all the other engines, save the AMG.
Toyota/Lexus do their homework...
They get one shot, one kill, and they better not f-up...

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M35MT - 8/6/2007 4:04:37 PMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

Lexus Admirer -

I had seen that article as well. I drove a 250 w/ the xpackage and it handled quite well (to the extent I could experience on the test drive) although it needed more power. It is utterly ridiculous that this package, and the 6spd man is not offered on the 350.

Althogh merc took the same route with the new C class. No man trans on the 350, only on the 300. Funny how Merc and Lexus parrallel each other, when most of the time everyone on this site compares the IS to BMW. Not the case. The IS is a C class competitor and the G35/37 a 3 series competitor.

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pushrod27 - 8/6/2007 6:35:41 PM

-10 Boost

Not according to Lexus. Their benchmark competitor is the 3 series. Why would anyone design a car to compete with the C-class? The 3 series dominates this market segment and the C-class is just another also-ran. I think the Audi A4 is more important in this class than the C. Why would you benchmark the 3rd. best player? The C-class is trying to catch the 3-series, so designing the IS to compete with it would have made it a loser by design.

M35MT - 8/7/2007 8:27:16 AMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

cawimmer -

I agree 100%. I do not think the C class wants to be a 3 series at all. It holds its own identity in this market segment. Although Lexus claims to go after the 3 series, they really are much better compared to Merc. The A4, C and IS are a blast to drive, however, the G35/37 is the only car in this segment that puts all its effort into competing with the 3's driving dynamics. Each company brings something different to the table - and Lexus will have a unique player in the performance segment.

On a side note, if this car ends up being fast, as in sub 4.5 to 60, it should be a bargain compared to the nearly $80k RS4. I imagine they will price the ISF in the Mid 50's.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/8/2007 1:00:56 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

M35MT, "$80K RS4?" Check the Audi website, my friend. It tops out at $66,500, or very close to that. For some reason, the Premium Package isn't on the site right now, and it topped out at $72K a few months ago. Strangely, the other day the Premium Package was there, but it was only about $800, bringing the car to $66,800. I hope it stays that way for 2008 and what's happening now is just a glitch.

M35MT - 8/8/2007 12:21:30 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

The new drop top RS4 will be just under 80k, posted here earlier. I went with that figure. Either way, the IS-F will most likely come in 15-20k under the Audi.

BTW, I think the RS4 is an awesome car, just a bit too pricey.

answer - 8/6/2007 4:15:18 PMView My AgentSpace

+9 Boost

Both the ISF and new M3 should offer a "fanboy" package. It could just be a huge decal on each side of the car with all the performance specs laid out for all to see.

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Hyundai - 8/6/2007 5:52:11 PM

-3 Boost

Sorry, 43LE, the number of inches spec. might get folks like you distracted (road hazard).

richardp996 - 8/6/2007 4:41:24 PM

+5 Boost

415 should not be dissapointing. That is still a hefty amount of power and more than enough to allow the driver to punch pass slower yet capable cars if ever a situation arise.

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Larry - 8/6/2007 5:16:03 PM

-1 Boost

415 hp is plenty. I wonder how often do auto fans on this web site drive over 110 mph per day. I have used the bmw m5 500 hp rarely, early in morning on the weekends I gone over 120 twice and 140 once. Too much traffic and if i got caught i might have gone to jail.

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EL34 - 8/6/2007 5:16:56 PM

+5 Boost

"Lexus IS-F might have 415hp only"

lol, what a puny little engine.

Why don't they call it the Lexus Corolla?

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M53R - 8/6/2007 6:14:33 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

Well if that is true, my estimate was 413hp....

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Designer1 - 8/6/2007 6:15:12 PM

-2 Boost

hmm, if the IS-F really produces only 415 hps, then the 5.0 V8 is worthless. And yet this is considered a tuned up engine, the 4.6 V8 can be tuned to produce more than 415 hps.

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Hyundai - 8/6/2007 6:44:06 PM

+7 Boost

But then again, the headline of the story is "Lexus IS-F ***MIGHT*** have 415hp only".

This is one of "those" stories... I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who worked at a Lexus dealership... yadda-yadda-yadda.

I will wait until the press-release.

Rupert - 8/6/2007 6:22:31 PMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

Hate to say I told you so...

Actually that's a lie, I'd love to say I told you so :P

Remember "The IS-F will have 450hp + for sure".
Those were the days...

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Hyundai - 8/6/2007 6:39:52 PM

+6 Boost

Usually people say what you are saying after they know for certain that they are right!

I wouldn't get all that happy about your bogus guess until I've seen hard numbers from a reputable source, ie. a press release! Last time I checked, a rep at a dealership was not a reliable source for a vehicle that has a lot of security around it (regarding specs).

Whow knows, maybe you are right, but you don't KNOW that for sure.

SupraNeverBack - 8/6/2007 7:11:49 PM

-1 Boost

I think 415hp is just a number used to fool BMW not to develop a turbo on its M3 too soon. ;)

415hp doesn't any sense at all since the detuned version in LS600h has 390hp@6400rpm already. Now the IS-F's only has 415hp@7000rpm with a new two stage intake system and a new cylinder head etc.? To gain 25hp, why bothers to do so much?

In conclusion, the number 415hp is false. ^0^

supermoto - 8/6/2007 7:30:46 PM

+2 Boost

I like the story when Jeremy Clarkson called some women to find why they hated lexus:
========================================
To see if I could find out why, I did something unusual. I picked up the phone and rang a few girls who don’t know one end of a dipstick from their left cheque book. And all, curiously, said pretty much the same thing. “A Lexus? Eugh.” “They’re perfectly revolting.” “They’re for people who play golf.” And best of all: “They’re all driven by the sort of person I wouldn’t want to know.”

There’s an inescapable conclusion here. Buy a Lexus and you are demonstrating two things. First that you are a man, and second that you are not interested in a car’s power or handling. This, it seems, is not something women find attractive.

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Hyundai - 8/6/2007 7:35:08 PM

+4 Boost

Ahh, finally something based on facts! (wtf?!)

Love Top Gear, but - *ahem* - this isn't exactly something to be taken all too seriously...

Rupert - 8/7/2007 5:15:27 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

That's how we see Lexus in Britain...

M35MT - 8/7/2007 8:32:30 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

If Cadillac cant get out of the 'old man car' syndrome than I think Lexus already has...the IS300 was 100% boy racer...its just so rare that these brain dead floosies dont know it exists.

Girls who dont care about cars only understand 3 letters: B, M and W.

supermoto - 8/6/2007 7:32:41 PM

-1 Boost

BTW, 415hp at the crank? What is that, 350hp at the rear wheel on a dyno? Less than a chipped 335i. LMAO.

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Hyundai - 8/6/2007 7:36:26 PM

+3 Boost

Smartypants, this isn't exactly a freakin' press release! Don't tell me that your girlfriend also rags on you for always being premature.....

sold2early - 8/6/2007 8:28:29 PM

+5 Boost

Seems strange that it would be only 415. The IS350 with 306 = 87hp/liter. The IS-F with 415 would be 83hp/liter; If the specific outputs were equal, the IS_F would have 437.

Doesn't seem right that the "high-performance" version would make fewer hp/liter.

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sold2early - 8/6/2007 8:42:30 PM

+4 Boost

As others here have stated, 415hp also doesn't make sense when compared to the LS460's 380hp. In this case, these motors would both make 83hp/liter.

The LS motor needs to be tuned to have a silky smooth idle and not be intrusive to the luxury feel; without such constraints on the IS-F, Lexus should be able to tune it to make a lot more hp/liter.

gsh23 - 8/6/2007 8:54:58 PM

+6 Boost

theres really no point in talking about the IS-F until the freakin thing is officially released.

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enthusiastx11 - 8/6/2007 10:53:26 PM

+1 Boost

christ...tell this to the lexus fanatics who constantly reference this car and its bmw/mercedes/porsche conquering abilities.

johnct - 8/6/2007 10:23:16 PM

-1 Boost

I can rank performance cars with no first hand expierence also.

1 Audi RS4
2 BMW M3
3 Cadilac CTS V
4 Mercedes C63AMG
5 Lexus IS-F

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audirevolution - 8/6/2007 10:57:55 PM

-1 Boost

I highly doubt that the IS-F will defeat ANY of its competitors.
Lexus has absolutely NO experience in this area of the car market.
How will they change the boring, bland to drive IS into a car as fun as the M3 or even the C63?

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Lexus - 8/6/2007 11:10:27 PM

+1 Boost

I seriously doubted if this were true, I belief it when the CEO of Lexus said so. They are not going to waste million of dollars, if not billion and give it only 415hp.

I betcha, when the Lexus IS-F is being release it will have 450hp-480hp for sure mark my words for it.

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enthusiastx11 - 8/7/2007 12:36:21 PM

-2 Boost

are you sure it won't have 600hp and outrun and S65AMG?

ThierryHenry14 - 8/8/2007 9:27:52 PM

+1 Boost

wholly owned subsidiaries don't have CEOs. They have presidents. Jim Press is President.

xj13 - 8/7/2007 1:17:29 AM

-2 Boost

I don't want to beat the same drum but 415 hp is truly weak. Hyundai's new coupe will smash the is-f.

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LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/7/2007 1:34:30 AM

-2 Boost

okay...

i think i should bring up american cars have been using like 5.0 liter V8s and 4.0 liter V6s in their cars, and they produce way less than 300 horses. lol

with that said, that means this car will have a lot of torque. big engine = more torque capacity.

dont worry so much, lexus knows it cant screw up this one since theres so much riding on its reputation. Cant wait to see the IS-f battle the M3 in magazines and in top gear.

tho i have a feeling since so many people are biased...that the lexus is going to lose.

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no1listensanyway - 8/7/2007 1:51:46 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Its rare the Lexus misses a target but for only 415hp this car was way overhyped. The second dissapointing car to come from Lexus in recent memory (LS 600).

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Lexus - 8/7/2007 2:09:16 AM

-5 Boost

I will laugh my butt off you German fanboys and Lexus hater, when the Lexus IS-F come with 480hp to 500 hp. Think about, Lexus already confirm that the Lexus LF-A is having 570+hp so it only make sense the IS-F have close to 500hp as well.

The Lexus IS-F will set a Horse Power standard in this segment, just like the Lexus IS350. The IS350 was the first in it category to have 306 hp, the most it category at that time. I wouldn't be suprise if the Lexus IS-F will have 480+ hp.

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Rupert - 8/7/2007 5:18:05 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

"Lexus already confirm that the Lexus LF-A is having 570+hp"

DId they really?

no of course they didn't, this is you just making up crap as usual.
They said 500+ in the LF-A, and 400+ in the IS-F.
480+ is just a ridiculous pipe dream.

enthusiastx11 - 8/7/2007 12:37:52 PM

0 Boost

go away. you're annoying.

Lexus - 8/7/2007 2:16:25 AM

+1 Boost

I sure smell bs here, there no way Lexus will come out with only 415hp.

Supra do you have anything to back what you claim?

That like saying the up and coming M5 or M6 will only have 510hp when the new RS5 will will have 575hp. The new BMW M5 and M6 will probably to 600hp just like the new Audi RS5. I'm sure glad you're not the one running Lexus company.

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cars4life - 8/7/2007 2:56:55 AM

+3 Boost

lets just wait for car

no point in saying it will beat the m3, rs4 or the c63. if its good enough then it will and if its not then it wont.

i personally feel that it might have bhp around 430-450. but thats just what i think it will have

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Kinger - 8/7/2007 5:28:11 AM

+1 Boost

Does anybody have any idea what the IS-F will weigh? Surely with that big 5.0 litre V8 and 415hp it will need to be at least as light as the M3 to have a hope of keeping up with it. If this hp number is true of course

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david999 - 8/7/2007 7:40:11 AM

+1 Boost

The bottom line is lets wait for the official release from Lexus on specs.

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tekknikal - 8/7/2007 8:23:52 AM

-3 Boost

the only problem here is for all the lexus fanboys that believe lexus cars are gods gift to earth.

unfortunately for them, the best thing toyota/lexus have put out for people who love driving is the IS....

now with the lf-a their argument that lexus makes gods chariots may be complete. but obviously that wont be enough for them because lexus is facing real competition in many other segments its trying to compete in.

its funny to me how they completely avoid the gt-r in all this discussion. m3 fans do as well but for a good reason- the m3 isnt about numbers. take performance numbers away from the is-f and what are you left with? that's the truth and the source of their fears.

they know lexus probably wont do very well against the gtr, m3, etc. they're just praying for specs that will give them hope... like 500horsepower or something silly.

in reality, toyota has tons of resources and may yet build a great car, but it wont kill the competition like their financial sheets do.

if what they want from the is-f is an m3+10hp they should just buy the real thing instead. you'll be ok without the 10 extra hp. its just like them going around begging for a 6 speed IS coupe with more emphasis on driving (just do it right and buy a g35)

those who are real IS fans should really be hoping the front end doesnt get too heavy.. and understand that with 8 speeds 415hp would be fairly competitive (provided weight is in check)... but at this point i don't think Lexus has many fans like that.

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Mercedes - 8/8/2007 2:54:58 AM

-5 Boost

Brilliant post!

7msynthetic - 8/7/2007 2:51:33 PM

+5 Boost

Maybe it's 415 hp AT THE WHEELS.

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S4cabriofoxone - 8/8/2007 1:02:20 AMView My AgentSpace

+6 Boost

I'm no Lex-lover and I'm certainly not making excuses, but boy, am I glad to be in a world where the word "only" is in the same sentence as "415hp." LOL, the IS-F will be more than fast enough!

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Mercedes - 8/8/2007 1:50:36 AM

-4 Boost

Either way we know the IS-F isn't going to mount a serious challenge to the M3 or C63 or RS4. For one it is way too ugly and mutated looking compared to the basic IS350. What a ill-proportioned mess. The stacked tailpipes look like something a child designed. Then there is no manual. The Benz doesn't have one either, but its chassis is getting praise next to the new M3 so that tells you that isn't business as usual with AMG. Especially after the Black Series. The car is going to be hot for about 13 months and then watch if flop. It doesn't deserve to make it looking like something thrown together in a mental ward at a hospital.

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Will_ - 8/8/2007 4:19:25 PM

+5 Boost

Damn, I missed this thread! Must've overlooked it!

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r15mohd - 8/8/2007 4:23:51 PM

+4 Boost

the very reason for Lexus/Toyota enetering this segment is to dominate the competition. so as far as all the biased comments on how the IS-F won't give the M/AMG/RS any competition, is completely false.

did the GS not alter sales from E-class and 5-series owners? did the IS not do the same for 3-series and C-class owners?

dominating the segment, i doubt lexus will do, due to the fact of loyal MB/BMW owners. but i see them at least taking away some fot he market share!

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r15mohd - 8/8/2007 4:26:24 PM

+3 Boost

***edit***

meant to say they won't dominate the market, but they will deter sales...plain and simple as they did when they entered with the GS and IS

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IS3andME - 8/8/2007 5:20:57 PM

+5 Boost

What many people are not noticing is that the IS-F is a 4 door, and the M3 is traditionally a 2 door. Yes, the 4 door is coming out, but I think Lexus has decided to come out with the 4 door and play it safe, while seeing what the true potential of the M3 coupe is. When the IS-F coupe comes out (chances are it will),chances are that all the pros and cons of the regular M3 coupe will be out and the IS-F can or might match that. A smart move I think.

Few people realize that the IS300 (Altezza) came out in 1998 and was hailed car of the year in Japan, and it was a response to the BMW E36, which has better handling than the E46 330i. Therefore the the IS300 had better handling than the E46, but lack the upgraded interior quality of the E46. The current IS350's handling is not as good as the IS300's, plus the suspension is not as taunt. Just like the current 330i handling and suspension are not as good as the E46's.

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tekknikal - 8/9/2007 12:45:22 PM

+1 Boost

here we go with the is-f coupe rumors... lol... see my post above. if what you want is an edgy is-f why not just buy an m3? oh no, you dont want a bmw m3. you want a lexus m3. well that's not what lexus does.

btw just because its a coupe doesnt make it inherently better... it all depends on how it was designed to begin with. the civic si sedan for instance, is more rigid than the coupe.

regarding 407hp, that's fine. i think the real thing people are missing is the price. all the horsepower numbers sound ok to me, especially with the 8 speeds. lexus is coming from a fresh angle here.. but whether or not its worth it doesnt entirely depend on hp but also price. what stands out to me is not just the 415hp talk but also the $50-60k talk.

if the car's price carried a 4 handle it would have made a lot of sense. but at $5x? that's not exactly a bargain for what you get...

JRobUSC - 8/9/2007 6:00:20 PM

+1 Boost

IS3, you don't know what you're talking about. The E90 3-series outhandles the E46 3-series. It's not even close, and this is coming from someone who had an E46 330i and now has an E90 330i.

amazinBimmer - 8/8/2007 7:54:52 PM

-1 Boost

this will be faster than the nose heavy, FWD derived and inferior vw engineered RS4. and you morons with the 500Hp on the camaros.. who cares. POS american cars.. woudl be seen dead in one.. ad it to the loser list begining with the fisher price corvette

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gsh23 - 8/8/2007 10:21:34 PM

+1 Boost

cars nowadays will only get more powerful, heavier, more expensive, and sloppier around corners. true bmw enthusiasts will talk about the e30 and e36. true toyota fans will talk about the ae86 and mr2. but then again, there were once true enthusiasts who really drove their cars.

dont make me laugh at your commute back home through the "backroads". if its not dante's peak then you might as well just play gt3 on the playstation.

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Mercedes - 8/9/2007 12:55:59 AM

-2 Boost

bulldogz - it gets better, now it seems the IS-F will have only 407hp. What a limp weakling. Forget out this playskool looking thing even mounting a challenge to the Germans.

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amazinBimmer - 8/9/2007 12:57:47 PM

0 Boost

sixstrings.. of course i understand HP isnt the whole story.. how else would you explain the slopiness of a RS4?. but i understand your point.. you could've picked a better example

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24hnews - 8/17/2007 5:11:15 AM

+1 Boost