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Tags: Meanest to Greenest? Do you agree?

Tag Link: Meanest to Greenest? Do you agree?

Most Un-friendly Environmental Vehicles? Diesels?
Meanest Vehicles for the Environment - 2008 are as follows:

1 being the worst...

1) 2008 Volkswagen Touareg 2. Yes, it's a Diesel.
2) Bugatti Veyron 16.4
3) 2008 Mercedes-Benz GL320 CDE. Yes, it's a Diesel.
4) 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Yes, it's a Diesel.
5 2008 Mercedes-Benz R320 CDI Yep, it's a Diesel!
6) 2008 Lamborghini Murcielago
7. 2008 Mercedes-Benz ML320 CDI Yup, it's a Diesel!!
8. 2008 Mercedes-Benz G55 AMG
9. 2008 HUMMER H2
10. 2008 GMC Yukon 2500
11. 2007 Bentley Azure
12. 2007 Bentley Arnage

Cleanest Vehicles for the Environment - 2008 are as follows:

1 being the cleanest

1)Honda Civic GX NGV
2)Honda Civic GX NGV
3)Toyota Prius
4)Honda Civic Hybrid
5)Smart Fortwo
6)Toyota Yaris
7)Nissan Altima Hybrid
8)Toyota Corolla
9)Mini Cooper
10)Ford Focus
11)Toyota Camry Hybrid
12)Honda Civic
13)Honda Fit

http://autos.aol.com/gallery/smart-car-mini-cooper-greenest-cars-2008

The American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE) recently released their annual list of "greenest" and "meanest" vehicles for sale in the United States. The "greenest" vehicles can be found in this gallery. The ACEEE's rankings are based on each model's fuel economy and its exhaust emissions.



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xdrive_xdrive_ - 3/20/2008 10:23:19 AM
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Where's the link to the "meanest vehicles?"

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1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 11:39:39 AM
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http://greenercars.org/highlights_meanest.htm


SpectatorSpectator - 3/20/2008 2:15:04 PM
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Didn't I see this post last week?

But in reverse order.


SpectatorSpectator - 3/20/2008 2:44:23 PM
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Apparently people get deboosted for asking questions now.

The reverse order I was referring to was the "Greenest to Meanest" vs "Meanest to Greenest" in the title. Not which car belongs in which section.


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 5:39:00 PM
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Spectator +1

It is the same article as last week, and it originally came out at least a month ago or so.

But to hybrid fans such as myself, y'all can just keep posting this one every week. :)


jeffy210jeffy210 - 3/20/2008 10:50:36 AM
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All the "bad" diesels one the list look like they are based off the same 3.2L diesel. Is this the Bluetec version or the previous generation diesel? If it's the latter it may explain a lot. Notice that the E320 Bluetec is not on the list.

The others on the list just have monster engines, that was to be expected they'd be on the list.

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M35MTM35MT - 3/20/2008 10:56:10 AMView My AgentSpace
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Why would they still provide the old version if the new technology is available?


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 11:46:10 AM
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These are the old diesels. The new ones are not on sale yet so of course they have not been tested
If you head over to http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do;jsessionid=82309cb802e9797d4523
you will find environmental scores for the current (non-AdBlue) E320 CDI Bluetec, which would not make it seem nearly as "mean" as those on the list, but still being a far way to go from being considered for the "greenest" list. The only current version of Bluetec for sale in the US, the E320 is not CA state compliant, and only has a temporary waiver from CA to be leased for 2 years, then cannot be resold in CA states. It does not even meet T2B5 federal requirements, just as the other diesels do not.


M35MTM35MT - 3/20/2008 12:31:04 PMView My AgentSpace
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That doesnt answer my valid question that deboosted for now apparent reason.

These are 2008 models. Why arent they all blutec?


M35MTM35MT - 3/20/2008 12:32:00 PMView My AgentSpace
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^ Isnt the E320 blutec already on sale?!


Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 3/20/2008 12:44:30 PM
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1970Toyo, that was a good attempt to misdirect but the truth is slightly more complex than you would like others to believe. The Blutec does indeed meet and greatly exceed T2B5 with AdBlue. E320 is not CA ARB compliant because the EPA and Mercedes have differing views on the way in which the AdBlue is refilled or rather what happens when it's not. The EAP wants the car to shut down if the AdBlue runs out while Mercedes knows better than to leave customers stranded on the roadside, something the EPA couldnt care less about.

In California, emissions tests are required annually. If a car is tested with its "check engine" light illuminated, it automatically fails and is not legal to drive on the road. I see no reason why the low AdBlue cant just illuminate a stupid light and leave you with a limp home mode. This would both make the car fail emissions tests and be aggrivating enough to drivers to have fixed immediately. But apparently, that's not a viable option with the EPA...


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 4:00:12 PM
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The current Bluetec is EPA Tier 2 Bin 8, not Bin 5. I dont care how you choose to spin it.


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 4:02:04 PM
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M35MT, only one Bluetec is on sale as a 2008 model, the E320. The ones we have seen posted about in the past couple weeks are not for sale yet, they will be 2009 models. T2B5, and CA CARB compliant diesels were not yet ready for prime time by 2008.


jeffy210jeffy210 - 3/20/2008 5:38:54 PM
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Interesting, I asked a valid question it seems I was also right about the type of engine, and yet still got modded down. :-\


johannasjohannas - 3/20/2008 10:51:17 AM
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well, I convinced. This brief stub of an article has shown me the light. And the truth I will take away with me is that diesel technology make some people angry, for some reason.

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w209w114w209w114 - 3/20/2008 11:03:38 AMView My AgentSpace
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Ummm youre forgetting the bluetec diesels, like the Mercedes Bluetec 2.2 BASHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER. Looks to me like a one sided article not worthy of my time.

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w209w114w209w114 - 3/20/2008 11:06:59 AMView My AgentSpace
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And why are there two identical "Honda Civic NGV" for 1st AND second place?


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 11:53:35 AM
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Seeing as how there is no BlueTec 2.2 for sale in the US, I guess it would be hard to rank it. If you are looking for the 3.2 BlueTec, you will need to likely become a member to get the full list. But I assure you, it will fall somewhere in the middle, neither especially green nor mean (realtively decent mpg, still not very good emissions). My above posted EPA link will illuminate anyone to its mpg and emissions.

Clearly placing the same car twice was a typo. If you cant look beyond that, here is the website with the original list.
http://greenercars.org/highlights_greenest.htm

One sided, huh? Because you dont agree with it. The cars are objectively scored based on emissions and mpg. How exactly is that one sided? Sour grapes from w209w114, big surprise.


w209w114w209w114 - 3/20/2008 2:34:45 PMView My AgentSpace
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HAHAHA, at the sour grapes comment :) Its one sided because there are a lot of "green" diesels out there yet you didnt even list a single one!

WHERE IS THE BMW 520D??? Theres one example of a car greener than a Prius.

See what I'm talking about when I said one sided?


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/20/2008 5:43:08 PM
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You know this is an American list, right? The new BMW 520 does appear to be quite a green leap forward, but it is not sold here, and thus was not tested. I will not speculate as to where it would fall on the list without a fairly comprehensive analysis of mpg/emissions/CO2. You may post that if you have it, but it still wont end up on ACEEE's list.


WhelanWhelan - 3/20/2008 11:38:34 AM
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Since the Corolla is on there, and my car is essentially a Corolla frame and engine (Matrix), I am on the list, woohoo!

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OblivObliv - 3/20/2008 12:36:34 PM
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Its funny people care about this stuff.

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1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/21/2008 11:05:41 AM
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Spellchecker, I usually cant bear to respond to you drivel. But the misinformation you put out there, like dangling shiny keys, is so laughably wrong, that I feel the need to correct you. Not because I care one bit that you read it, but because god forbid someone new to this site reads your drivel and doesnt know you as someone who just talks out of his a**.

None of the Toy/Lex vehicles you listed would ever qualify for a meanest list. The hybrids you listed get superior gas mileage in their classes (with SULEV emissions). The trucks you listed get average gas mileage in their classes while still achieving T2B5 compliance.

Your miseducation on this topic is so evident. Get some real facts before you come back and play with the big boys. And deboosting, no matter how good it makes you all feel, does not change facts.

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zorbeezezorbeeze - 3/22/2008 1:26:54 PM
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Lexus LS600h
Lexus GS450h
Lexus RX400h

These cars are not green??????????????????????
Lay off the cheap glue. Please.

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JUGNUJUGNU - 3/20/2008 1:57:09 PMView My AgentSpace
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and i think they forgot to count all the 65 AMGs, 55s, 63s, S600, BMW V10s, V12s, Audi W12s, W12 diesels of the world.

European cars certainly dominate the lists of most un freindly enviornmental vehicles.

Not badi must say as they offer awesome power too but that's the truth. They are very environment-unfriendly.

JUGNU

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w209w114w209w114 - 3/20/2008 2:36:03 PMView My AgentSpace
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The list is GARBAGE. I think we can all agree on that one.


TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 3/20/2008 4:49:06 PMView My AgentSpace
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October 15, 2007
Mercedes brings diesel back to California


"Mercedes-Benz announced today it is making a version of its E320 Bluetec diesel sedan available immediately to California customers through a special two-year/24,000 mile lease only program. The announcement was made on the runway at the opening of the Mercedes-Benz Fashion Week at Smashbox Studios in Los Angeles."


"Diesels inherently burn less fuel than gasoline vehicles and they also produce significantly lower emissions of carbon dioxide (C02). Also, with Bluetc vehicles the particulate-what is commonly called "soot"-levels are reduced to levels comparable-or better than-that of gasoline-powered vehicles. Similarly, NOX emissions are reduced."


http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071015/FREE/71015006/1065


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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 3/20/2008 4:55:46 PMView My AgentSpace
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“Kenichi Yamamoto, the man in charge of the development of this car, makes no secret of Subaru's lofty ambitions for the 2008 Subaru Legacy Boxer Diesel, which features the world's first horizontally opposed diesel engine for passenger cars.”

“Yamamoto admits that research started on the project nine years ago, but it was impossible at that stage to build a business case for the engine. 'Now the situation is different,' he notes. *'In Europe we need to reduce our carbon-dioxide emissions; we cannot survive without diesel.' * ”


“Nevertheless, Hirofumi Senoo, the general manager of Subaru's European test center tells us, * 'Diesel is the main focus for the U.S. market. It has more potential than hybrid gasoline engines because hybrids are only good for the city.' * ”


http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124553?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..2.*


Htay7500Htay7500 - 3/20/2008 6:31:20 PM
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hey my article! :D


1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 3/21/2008 10:58:40 AM
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The reason the E320 Bluetecs were only allowed to be leased for 2 years is because they are NOT T2B5 or CARB compliant. They were granted a waiver. Once the leases are up, they cannot be resold in CA emissions states. This first released Bluetec was not the savior that had been promised. And now the saviors are here, in the form of SUVs that get 17/23 and 18/24 while just barely slipping into T2B5 compliance. Impressive, not.


mplsmpls - 3/20/2008 8:41:47 PM
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The Volkswagen Touareg is one fugly car..

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DasAutoDasAuto - 3/20/2008 9:02:47 PM
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"and i think they forgot to count all the 65 AMGs, 55s, 63s, S600, BMW V10s, V12s, Audi W12s, W12 diesels of the world."

W12 Diesel? I think not buddy. The w12 is a petrol engine and the only v12 diesel in the audi/vw group is in the Q7 which isn't out yet.


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huu76huu76 - 3/20/2008 11:11:12 PM
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threepoint,
You make valid points about whether no Adblue should disable a car or not.

I have a question though. Hybrids don't create the pollution to begin with, therefore they don't need additives/whatever like Adblue. Why doesn't Mercedes simply NOT create pollution so they don't have to worry about where to hide it?

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Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 3/22/2008 6:06:52 PM
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First of all, hybrids do produce pollution, simply not as much as diesel. No one here or anywhere is denying that diesels are are a dirtier option. What I would suggest is that diesels are summarily compared to hybrids as a green alternative to gasoline counterparts and that comparison is folly. While higher fuel economy is an added benefit of diesel, it is not the end all be all of the diesel equation, I wish it werent touted as such.

Further, Adblue does not hide anything. The process of urea injection chemically alters the emissions into CO2, N2 and H20. To proclaim that this technology is hiding emissions is likened to saying that a catalytic converter (without which, even a hybrid would be extremely dirty) hides harmful pollutants. It's just not true.


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 3/21/2008 8:21:39 AM
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Clearly, these results do not speak of the environmentally friendlyness of diesels but rather the decision of these luxury makers to use diesel as a high performance lower mileage alternative to high-powered gasoline engines. Consequently, these diesels are not meant to sip at 35mpg rather they are meant to improve a 14mpg vehicle to 17mpg while still providing performance.
Yet again, another list that is taken out of context. They should be comparing diesel vehicles to their comparable gasoline counterparts. There is no point in comparing a Touareg 2 V10 TDI to a Honda Civic GX NGV, they are two completely different vehicles.

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aussiemonsteraussiemonster - 3/25/2008 7:56:40 PM
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All this list really shows is that large capacity vehicles use more fuel than small capacity vehicles. The worst vehicles are at least 2 to 3 times the engine size of the cleanest. That's not rocket science!!!!

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gregsfcgregsfc - 3/26/2008 6:57:46 PM
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Just like I stated in last week's anti-diesel propaganda, there are three reasons why diesels score poorly. None of these scores reflect facts.

Number one, the emissions system used by the U.S. EPA will always disfavor diesels and favor gas power, even when the tier 2, bin 5 compliant diesels come out, because the EPA is more strict on diesel-type exhaust and go easy on the harmful substances emitted by gas power. To prove this, lets look at the limit allowed for CO, which has not changed since 1989 (3.4 grams per mile). Diesels generally fall well below this limit, but do not get extra credit for being extra clean; they score only as passing. This lax limit has been left alone because it is hard for gas-power technology to go well below that limit. The same is true for total HCs and there is not even a limit on CO2 in which diesels normally fall between 10 and 15 percent lower. With respect to NOx and PM, however, the limits have been reduced 95% since 1989 (.17 and .02 gram per mile respectively, tier 2, bin 5). Even when the compliant diesels come out, they will probably average lower in these two substances than gas-powered vehicles and our regulators will still call them dirty.

Number two. The diesels being tested today are not clean diesels. The technology is available, and has been for two years, but the EPA held up SCR technology to reduce NOx while trying to decide if they would allow auto makers to use SCR technology. When the EPA finally decided to allow it, they set out the parameters in which SCR could be applied. The auto makers then had to design systems within the EPAs regulations. This is the reason we do not have clean diesels even as we have had the technology and the clean fuel for a while.

Number three. All diesels are 100% renewable fuel capable without necessary modifications and do not lose substantial fuel economy when using any of the three renewable fuels they are capable of using. Biodiesel, renewable diesel, and green diesel are all made of bio-based sources and significantly reduce all harmful emissions and CO2, but regulators do not take this alternative-fuel capability into account when rating them on greenness or meanness. Unlike gas power, which must be specifically designed or modified to accept high blends of renewable fuel, and unlike gas-power which significantly lose fuel economy when using alternatives like ethanol or propane, all diesels can use any blend of these renewables and can use them without losing fuel economy.

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gregsfcgregsfc - 3/26/2008 7:22:57 PM
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It's silly to compare the greenness of hybrids to diesels.

Diesel is a type of internal combustion engine called compression-ignition. What we commonly refer to as gas power is spark-ignition. And then there is an electric car that uses battery power and electric motor, but a hybrid is electric power added to an internal-combustion engine. Since a hybrid is not all electric, it makes no sense to state that it is better than a diesel or better than a gas-powered engine. Of course it is; it has two sources of propulsion.

What we could argue is that a hybrid is better than a non-hybrid, or a car that uses only internal combustion, or a car that uses only electric, but it makes no sense to argue hybrids over diesels without also stating that hybrids are better than other non-hybrid, cars. The reason folks are saying "clean diesel" is because diesels can now be made as clean burning as gas cars in every emission category, even in
California, which makes them much, much cleaner than ever before, but no one is saying they are as clean as a hybrid, since a hybrid can run part time without internal-combustion power. What diesel advocates are saying is that one can use less petroleum, meet very stringent emissions standards, and use renewable fuel without sacrifice by purchasing a conservatively-powered diesel automobile.

My point is that a diesel is better than a gasser. If you want to argue for hybrids, I'm all for it, but my hybrid would use a diesel engine as the internal-combustion part of the power train. Diesel power is better than gas power period. The process of compression-ignition provides more efficiency; more torque; better fuel economy; and the ability to use renewable fuel right out of the box without losing fuel economy. If you want to add in a electric motor, the diesel would still have these same advantages, but to add an electric motor to the gas car and not the diesel and then state that the gas-powered car is better makes no sense.

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