Porsche's Master Plan: Position VW to Challenge Toyota?

dull cars serve their purpose

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 2:26:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

BRRRRR!!! I feel it getting colder down here!

— PlanoA4 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 2:38:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Will...

Just stop arguing with them. You know the only reason why there are so many haters is because they are just jealous of the success that Toyota/Lexus has been having.

— mkk21 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 3:45:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

I loved the title, the next in the series could be "Starbucks to be positioned to compete with WalMart."

Just ridiculous!

— MercBasher (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 6:29:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I loved the title, the next in the series could be "Starbucks to be positioned to compete with WalMart."

Just ridiculous!

— MercBasher (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 6:29:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

they may have a tough time due to wildly inflated yen.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 2:14:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

And a good master plan it is. If Porsche manages to insert a bit of that "there is no subtitute" in VW. They very well may have a winner on their hands.

— BM3W (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 3:29:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

In order for VW to take over Toyota several things must happen. For the sake of brevity I will not go over the business case. But in all honesty, it would be very difficult for them to achieve.

— cynic (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 3:43:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

They have lemon laws for that sort of thing...

— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 4:21:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Whats the point of the lemon law if the damage has already been done to the consumer? The lemon law would just be something to fall back on and make the manufacturer replace or pepay you for your troubles. In the first place, as a consumer, you would want to have some thing reliable. Some car you buy and just keep driving it and nothing breaks down. Guess which car has that reputation.

— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 7:23:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Agent 009 is so out of touch. In most states it is almost impossible to meet the requirements of the lemon law no matter how bad the vehicle. I know in Texas I had a new MB SL500 in which the AC failed multiple times in two years but to apply the lemon law the AC had to fail twice in year one and twice in year two - but mine was once in year one and then multiple times in year two. Gosh I hated that car and hence was born the name "MercBasher"

— MercBasher (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 6:19:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

When Volkswagon stops building their cars in MEXICO, maybe their serious quality issues will decrease. Volkswagon used to be among the best in quality, but recent outsourcing to Mexico to save money has bit them in the butt. (Audi doesn't suffer the same quality problem because they are all built in Germany.)
Most people who I know that purchased recent Volkswagons have had nothing but problems with them. There is a local Volkswagon dealership near me with a BMW dealer next door. The salesperson for BMW came over from Volkswagon because she said Volkswagon just had too many reliability problems.
Toyota on the hand, builds NO cars for the US market in Mexico for obvious reasons. All Toyotas are built with careful quality control in either Japan, the US, or Canada.
If Volkswagon want to challenge Toyota, they have ways to go to reclaim the position they had back in the 1980's.

— Dave (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 4:22:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Ah..Hmmm...let me wonder why VW is targeting Toyota, one simple answer, Toyota/Lexus are the best manufactured in the world. Especially, in reality, quality and bang for your $$$.

You know how it goes "To be the Best" you Got to Beat the Best". That what VW pretty much say here, VW want to proof to the world that they are the best that why they want to beat Toyota/Lexus. Which it "Won't" happen anytime soon. Look at the dawn VW Jetta, a cheap imitation of the Toyota Corrolla. Heck everyone is coming Toyota/Lexus, heck.. I would too, If I was in the car business;).

You guys/girls on this website don't get it don't you? The owner of Toyota/Lexus love their brand and would never trade in for anything else. They might trade it in for another Japanese brand but not VW for sure.

Lexus

— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 5:28:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Best of luck to VW. If Honda can't beat Toyota, they certainly can't come close.

— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 6:06:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

This should be interesting. When Porsche wants something, it gets it.

What will be more interesting is whether or not Porsche can save VW's reliability- AKA, demolish its Mexican plant and move the manufacturing for American-bound VWs back to Europe; or at the least, the US. That strategy has worked well for the Asian manufacturers.

Unlike Toyota, VW has the potential to be much more than a one-trick pony. If Porsche succeeds in its quest, VW could not only be reliable, but it could be the manufacturer of stylish, sporty, semi-luxurious, reliable, affordable every-day cars. I had VW Rabbit myself- a very, very long time ago. It was built like a tank and was very reliable. Too bad the Mexican plant has ruined VW's reputation for durability.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 6:20:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

its weird, here, vw is quite high quality, and not too unreliable. it got worse recently (lots of electrics) but it can get better. i didn't know the mexican vws were so bad.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 6:28:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Toyotas are easier to repair aside from the fact that it takes a long time before anything gets broken under normal use. Specially the Pick ups and SUVs. Here in the Philippines, ten year old toyotas are dirt cheap to maintain. Every corner repair shop can fix those Toyotas. As for European cars, you have to bring it to the dealer and they need diagnostics to fix and reset those faults and irritating warning lights on the dash. VWs are good cars but the expensive parts, difficulty to fix, unpopularity (compared to Toyota), more expensive selling price, and overall reliability are too far to compare to Toyotas in the coming years. So VW, in order to beat Toyota would be like climbing Mt. Everest ten times or more in the next 15 to 20 years.

— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 7:36:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Ricemaster-you need to post a link to that info.

— watisthat (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 8:37:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

The comment below is an outright lie unfortunatly... post 964 model (1994-5), before they started to produce the 993, Porsche hired Toyota to help re-organize their factories and integrate a "just in time" parts system. Toyota did do an outstanding job in terms of structuring the factories to be faster and more productive, unfortunatly at the cost of much of the hand built feel and exclusivity. AT NO TIME DID TOYOTA OR ANY OTHER JAPANESE (don't use the derogitory term "jap" like the poster below) INVEST IN PORSCHE. They were hired as consultants and nothing more.
They certainly NEVER managed Porsche in any way shape or form!
-----------------------------------------------------
"BTW.....You never hear Porsche having reliability issues while all other German or euro makers have issues. Why is that? Porsche had Japnese management!! That's right y'all. It might come as a huge surprise and be very hard for some folks here to believe their German Icons would be managed by a Jap comapny, but it's true. Many years ago(pre Porsche SUV time), Porsche was on the verge on bankruptcy, they had poor quality due to poor wasteful management/run down plants and old manufacturing techniques and only 1 model to sell. A Japanese company injected much needed cash and clean house, they made Porsche redo everything. Now Porsche is the most profitable of all automakers!!!"

— Mithras264 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 2:41:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

My uncle use to have a VW Rabbits back in the 80's. My dad and my uncle use to praise how good the VW Rabbit was. They would talk about how great is handle and how quick it was. Then when my uncle got married he need a family car so he brought a 1989 Toyota Camry. Stick with that car for 12 years and then as years past by the Camry was getting old he need a new car. So he decided to go back to VW and finally brought a 2002 VW Jetta. For 5 whole months he got problems with his Jetta. He thought VW was good as they were when he first brought his VW Rabbits. He later traded his 2002 VW Jetta for a 2001 Toyota Camry. He has the Toyota for 3 years now and he has not encounter a problems yet.

— watisthat (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 8:11:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

VW/Porsche is not the one who know how to make a sporty family car. Look the at the new and just release Toyota Camry SE with 268 hp. It goes faster than the Audi Audi with 255 hp and the BMW 330i with 255 hp from 0-60. This is a fact proven by one of those auto magazine, forgot which one. The 2007 design are very sporty for a family sedan, and European version is even sportier.

Most of you German car fan here never really give credit that Toyota/Lexus deserve. Anything with Toyota/Lexus or Japanese label you say inferior. That just to show how bias you're are. Japan make cars that is just as good, rival or even better than German car for sure.

Heck I bet if we put a BMW, MB or Audi emblem on a Jackass/Donkey! you would says it can do 0-60 in 4.0 second or less. Read my above comment why Porsche/VW is targeting Toyota/Lexus.

Lexus

— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 8:16:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

No, offend to anyone here, isn't the Bettle a chic car? that what I thought. Comapare the VW to the Camry SE, Accord, and Nissan SE, the Bettle is chic car. Do you want to seem by your friends that you're driving a Bettle, hell no....

I thought VW mean people wagon back in Europe? VW is a good brand but not as good as Toyota. Were talking between VW and Toyota, not Audi or Lexus. Even Audi having a hard time keeping up with the Lexus IS350. I bet ya Audi will add more hp to it new A4 to catch the IS350.

Ah....ha...ha...ha...ha...ha...

Lexus

— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 8:28:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Actually, that is sensible. Whatever gave VW the arrogance to think any German name could demand a premium, Porsche should purge VW of that mentality.

Porsche makes 2 billion, VW loses money. I'd put my money w/ Porsche.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 9:35:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

The US is a hard market for VW as the Dollar and Euro exchange rate really hurts the bottomline.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 10:36:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Something ironic is that Audi is approaching VW's sales in the US. They currently selling over half of what VW sells per month- which not only makes Audi look good, but makes VW look bad. Audi sold 9K cars this month, VW sold 17K.

If, in their massive product push, Audi reaches VW's sales levels and/or surpasses them, it would just be hilarious.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2006 11:58:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

All VW needs to do like any other car company is to build cars as reliable as Toyota does because the bread and butter of Toyota is the Corolla and 4cyl. Camry.

You don't think people that buy Toyota's are into sports cars do ya?

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 2:53:19 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

of course! many of us are.

we LOVE machines like the MR2 and the Celica. but toyota just happened to be a little TOO smart for its own good.

we can get the SAME hot engine in the corolla and the matrix. so we can get STEALTHY sporty cars, DISGUISED as a sedan or wagon.

with MORE practicality. for less money. (which can also be used to make sneakier/hotter Q-SHIPS!)

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 8:49:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Duhhh!!!!! Read the history books guys!

Most of you forget, that Porsche and Toyota had a manufacturing technology partnership in the 90's.

Porsche is quite aware of the advances made by Toyota and the inherent strengths and weakness of the approach. By using the knowledge learned and applying it successfully to VW, Toyota might indeed have a formidable opponent.

After all Porsche is the most profitable maker for good reason.

— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 10:57:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Most profitable in Germany perhaps. Toyota is slated to make $13 billion NET this year.

Let's hope the 911s stay 911s.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 10:21:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

009,
Are you admitting that the Germans actually learned something from Japan?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2006 10:23:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu76, you realize that Porsche makes the most profit, PER VEHICLE. Toyota may be richer- but if Porshce even sold half the amount of cars Toyota did, they'd have far deeper pockets [than Toyota], assuming they had the same profit margins they do now.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2006 12:24:54 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Porsches sells about 30,000 cars a year in N.America (new and used). Let's say they do 75K worldwide.

The problem is that Porsche needs to find another 4.9 million buyers just to meet 50% of Toyota. There are only a limited number of ppl willing to pay anything for a Porsche (in ref to keeping high margins). Porsche is good, but they shouldn't get any ideas of keeping VW afloat. Audi's resources are being drained because of it.

We will see if Porsche controls VW, or VW ends up poisoning Porsche.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2006 1:30:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

How about a reality check: a posting based on FACTS!
(this will be a new concept for many of you...)
If you ignore SUVs and pickups and minivans (in other words, look at part of the US market, plus ALL of the rest of the world market), then Toyota is the #1 manufacturer, and VW is #2 (note: Toyota includes Lexus, as the cars called Lexus in the US are sold as Toyota everywhere else, and VW include Audi)

BUT UNTIL RECENTLY, VW WAS #1 AND TOYOTA WAS #2.

For all you arm-chair BS-artists: here is the site for automotive production statistics: http://www.oica.net/

If you look at Passenger car production, you'll see that Japan builds more cars than Germany, but Germany builds more than the US (but not more than NAFTA: US/Can/Mex).
And North American plus the 2 million from South America match Japanese production.

Again, looking at passenger cars (because light-trucks in these stats include delivery-vans, postal vehicles, etc.) the most recent stats are 2005:

TOYOTA: 6,157,038 (includes Lexus)
VW: 4,979,487 (includes Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, ...)
GM: 4,526,312 (includes Cadillac)
FORD: 3,514,496 (includes Lincoln, but not Volvo, Jag...)
HONDA: 3,324,282
Peugot: 2,982,690 (includes Citroen)
Daimler/Chrysler:
1,965,410 (includes Jeep)

So kids, get used to the fact that "the big 3" are Toyota, VW and GM.
And in terms of cash, those 3 companies fit into the same order!

Also, unlike Toyota, VW designs almost everything it builds, such as Twin-cam heads (whereas Toyota's "Corolla GTS-16" used heads from Yamaha ... even now that they "make" TC heads, I don't believe that they have the technology to design them).

VW builds its own diesel engines (arguably more challenging than gas engines). Who do the other car makers use?
Nissan uses Nissan engines.
Volvo used 6-cyl. VW engines
Toyota trucks (Land Cruiser 3.5L 4-cyl) use Hino engines built by Toyota.
Toyota cars (Versa in Europe) used VW engines

Toyota is smart ... they don't spend R&D money when they can buy other company's technology (as a fall-back to copying German engineering). And they're not too shy to copy other company's designs ... like that new Lexus Phaeton (I think they call it 460H?)
And the LS460 from the side is the front half of an Audi mated to the back-half of a BMW ... what's with that?
Surely they have enough money to hire their own designers?

— DieselRules (View Profile)

Posted on 12/11/2006 3:07:30 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1