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V6s and diesel engines to replace Cadillac’s V8

omarrana submitted on 1/7/2008 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 11:10:18 AM

24 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.egmcartech.com

Tag Link: Cadillac

As reported last week, GM canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V8 engine for its luxury cars due to the new fuel-economy standards set by the CAFE 35.

That new V8 engine was expected to replace Cadillac’s Northstar V8 which will end production in 2010. Well now, the future of V8 Cadillac models has become very unclear.

According to Automotive News, Cadillac’s trademark V8 engines, which have been a part of their big sedans since the 1930s, will be replaced by high-tech V6 units and possibly some diesel engines. General Manager Jim Taylor told Automotive News that GM is considering a 2.9 liter...

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V6s and diesel engines to replace Cadillac’s V8

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omarrana

I hooked up my accelerator to my brake lights. I hit the gas, people behind me stop, and I'm gone.

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User Comments

EL34

Good news outta GM.

Hip, Hip, Hooray :-)

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 12:37:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

EnnNorak

BOOO !!! GM is making a political decision instead of a technical one -- just like most of the politicians we trust to run our governments. There is nothing wrong with silky-smooth super-efficient DOHC V8 power. The Cadillac NorthStar V8 is a good starting point for V8 engines of the future and if GM abandons the V8, it might as well downgrade the Cadillac brand in other money-saving ways also.

The abandonment of the V8 also makes a statement about the financial weakness of GM -- looks like they have run out of development money. A V8 might be acceptable in the Cadillac CTS but, in my book, it is not acceptable in other Cadillac models.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 9:51:04 PM | | Votes: 1   

DaHarder

Let's be realistic here...

With all the strides Cadillac has made in recent years, why would they purposely 'cripple' themselves by NOT offering a V8 when every other luxury make offers them?

Cadillac will definitely have a V8, and a damned good one at that!

Note: To the Honda/Acura fans... Don't Bother, as Acura will forever be considered Near-Luxury until they offer a True V8.

— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 12:48:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

pushrod27

I agree... there's no way Cadillac will go without a V8. It would be un-American! Maybe they're just going to make some updates to the Northstar, or start using the corporate pushrod Chevy V8s (they already do it in the CTS-V and the Escalade.) Pushrods aren't great for the 'sophisticated luxury' that they're shooting for, but then again, it works for Bentley (Yes, the most expensive 'true' Bentleys still use the old-school twin turbo pushrod V8s - the customers prefer them)

Pontiac is about to release the G8 and Chevy will soon have the new Camaro, both of them with available V8s. Are you telling me that Pontiac and Chevrolet will offer V8 engines, but Cadillac will not?!? Unlikely.

— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 8:11:19 PM | | Votes: 1   

EnnNorak

Rosco does not understand that a V8 is a smoother engine than a V6 especially an inherently-out-of-balance 90-degree V6 like some manufacturers (not GM) still make. There is no substitute for a high number of cylinders if you want engine smoothness. BTW, I will accept an I-6 or H6 configuration if you want to limit me to 6 cylinders. The main reason for adopting a six-cylinder engine is savings in cost of production as a 6 has fewer components than an 8.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 9:55:18 PM | | Votes: 1   

BMW4me4ever

rosko ... there is a big difference in the performance of a v6 or inline-6 or a V8. The V8 is more deliberate. The 6 is more punchy so to speak. I own a 535i, 2008 with the twin-turbo. I love my car. tons of power, good fuel economy . Would I compare it to a V8, 550? Not a chance ... the 550 is a better all around car. better engine, smoother delivery ..

— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 1/8/2008 3:35:43 PM | | Votes: 1   

GreenPlease

Fuel efficiency aside, its about time Detroit started downsizing engines and increasing performance via turbo charging.

Today's vehicles have really become bloated. The new CTS is a good example: It looks awesome, IMO, and has a pretty powerful engine, but its curb weight inhibits its performance (4K lbs for a midsize sedan, seriously?)

Modern engines that utilize turbo compounding provide phenomenal aggregate and specific power (e.g. BMW's twin turbo diesels). By reducing the size and weight of an engine the power necessary for a specific performance metric can also be reduced. An example would be a turbo compounded I4 making 400hp in a Corvette would provide performance equal to the stock LS7.

From a fuel efficiency point of view, downsizing and turbo charging is really low hanging fruit. If taken far enough, thermal efficiencies can be doubled over standard NA ICEs. This is due to the fact that much of the exhaust energy is salvaged to displace energy otherwise necessary for intake.

Detroit shouldn't be complaining about CAFE. Simple measures such as this (turbocharge+downsize) coupled with aerodynamic tweaks (diffusers, anyone?) and other weight saving measures (below) would double fuel economy.

Weight saving measures:

1. Ceramic coated exhaust main- reduces temperatures inside engine compartment and therefore necessitated radiator size. Could indirectly improve aerodynamics by reducing radiator size.

2. Damn just ran out of time, I'll post more later....

— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 12:53:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

pushrod27

There is no way that this hypothetical turbocharge I4 would provide acceleration equal to a V8. You can achieve some pretty stratospheric horsepower numbers with small engines, but you need to rev the hell out of them to do so, and you forfeit low-end torque in the process. People still need V8s. A V8 isn't necessarily about the horsepower total. It's more about the instant thrust of low-end torque. You just can't replicate that with a smaller engine.

— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 8:13:52 PM | | Votes: 2   

EnnNorak

GreenPlease, if you want fuel efficiency go diesel. I hate turbos because I cannot trust them for reliability. Early turbos crapped out at great expense to the owner and, recently, a major manufacturer had to recall turbo models for the same reason.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 9:58:01 PM | | Votes: 1   

bmwdrvr

this sounds like a dum idea, i understand the new cafew standards but why is it important to have a CTSV, and corvette ZR1, than take away the V8 from Cadillac.....i guess that also means they have decided to kill off the DTS, not that im a fan but seriously that is one of their best selling cars. 6.5 0-60 is still 6 tenths off the 5.9 that the 320hp v8 gets and with only a 2mpg difference in epa ratings.....Cadillac will lose sales forget presige, because the DTS is a huge portion of its sales. Not just that but the V8 has been with cadillac for decades, why kill the brand that has come so far in such a short time. The STS is just poorly concieved even the CTS has a nicer interior they are going back to the OLD American car company thinking instead of fixing it, get of rid it, and blame it on the market.

— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 1:00:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

EnnNorak

They should keep the DTS and give it an aluminum body if weight is a concern. Anyway, the top model of the Buick Lucerne has the same engine and represents better value. They better not kill off the Lucerne as well.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 10:00:16 PM | | Votes: 1   

ThierryHenry14

CTS-V with a V-6? This report must be for regular saloons, not performance ones.

— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 2:14:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

KillBot

Yes yes I get it, they have to have better fuel economy due to this stupid law. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. If I want a V-8 in my car why can't I have one? I can buy one from a German car company but I can't get one from a domestic company. Well isn't that just great.

— KillBot (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 2:22:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

GreenPlease

@KillBot

The question I pose is this: if the performance is the same for an NA V-8 and a blown V-6, why would you care? Now consider that the V-6 has better lateral acceleration due to its reduced weight and better balance and that it also has better fuel economy. What is the logical choice?

Which German car company are you going to get a V-8 from? BMW or Mercedes? Both have a higher price point than Cadillac and will only be able to offer V-8s in the future in low production niche cars (such as the e92 M3 or future versions of the M5/6). If they decide to offer their twin turbo V8 in mass production they'll have to pay heavy CAFE penalties, raising the price of their vehicles.

— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 6:01:14 PM | | Votes: 1   

pushrod27

GreenPlease, you obviously have never experienced the sound of a properly piped V8 engine. Yes, you can get the same power from a blown V6, but it's going to sound like shit compared to a nice V8. Sounds like a trivial matter, but if you're into that (like I am) it's a really big deal. Nothing can match the burble of a V8.

Maybe if they used these smaller engines with equal power and then pipe V8 sounds into the cabin - maybe that would make a smaller engnine palatable as a V8 replacement.

— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 8:17:07 PM | | Votes: 1   

KillBot

Green Peace,

I get where you're coming from, I do. But....you don't buy a luxury sports car for it's economy. I do, hope that some day performance and fuel economy can coinside. But as of now, it's not happening. Not yet anyway. When I can see more 400-500hp coming outa V-6's from the factory I'll be happy. But as it stands only Nissan and Porche can do that.

— KillBot (View Profile)

Posted on 1/8/2008 2:44:23 PM | | Votes: 1   

theoptimisticpessimist

Cadillac needs to read the Acura RL forums.

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 2:23:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

EnnNorak

pushrod27, you will outgrow the burble need (I used to have it also) but I now want a quiet engine. I especially don't like cam profiles that cause burbling at low RPMs and open and close valves properly only later at higher RPMs.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 1/7/2008 10:04:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

StickShiftCamry

The sound of a V8, thats all that matters. Twin turbo 535 or V8 550? I'll go with the 550.

— StickShiftCamry (View Profile)

Posted on 1/8/2008 12:25:36 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

dumpsty

Disappointing, but a sign of necessary change.

Offering diesels is a bit "scary" for the older crowd and maybe for younger people too. Imagine all these Cadillac owners running out of fuel b/c they let the tank run down to "E" and they get to a gas station to find out diesel fuel isn't sold there....bummer.

Besides the Escalade (doesn't use the Northstar), the DTS is the only current Cadillac that a V8 comes standard in the base model. So, is the elimination of the Northstar V8 really important? Will GM really miss it? It been used in the Bonneville GXP and Lucerne outside of Cadillac. I would like to see a next generation of the engine, but until it can be modified to compete in output, fuel consumption, and profitability...shelve it.

— dumpsty (View Profile)

Posted on 1/8/2008 12:05:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

kurtismac

About damn time..who the hell needs a v8 as an everyday car? Unless you are a fat ass need all that power to drive your ass around..

— kurtismac (View Profile)

Posted on 1/10/2008 5:19:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

gregsfc

A three literish diesel can produce torque upwards of 425 lbs at less than 2,000 RPM.

There is not a single, light-duty application, with today's technology, that requires that we have a single V-8 on the market.

Americans just need to grow up and quit pretending that wasting barrels of fuel for the simple sake of saying "Yeah, I got a V-8- " is necessary.

And if one were to run the upcoming CTS diesel down to empty on the fuel guage, he or she would be on his or her 650 th mile on that tank of fuel, so I think he or she would be able to find a diesel pump w/i that many miles, especially since diesel fuel is sold at 45% of all fuel retailers nation wide.

— gregsfc (View Profile)

Posted on 1/10/2008 5:28:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

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