What Diesel Strategy Will Win In The End In The High End Market? Performance OR Efficiency/Economy?

I can only speak for myself. I want diesel for its fuel efficiency while having equal or better performance than its petrol model. Being environmentally cleaner than petrol is a plus (well, isn't better fuel efficiency good for the environment too?). I expect to pay a small premium for this technology but do not expect the price differences to be like they are for hybrid vs. petrol for the same model (I know it won't).

— djrickp (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 10:19:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 9   

High performance is great, but I don't understand the obsession with horsepower and fast 0-60 times the last 5 years or so. Almost all cars have much more power than they did 10 years ago, and I really think most owners really don't need or use (or probably even want) all the power that's available to them. Lots of power has its place - sports cars, top models of a range, (real) utility vehicles, etc., but why do we need an Accord with 280 hp or whatever it has? Why not offer BMWs and MBs (and the rest of their competitors) with lower powered, more efficient engines at the bottom of the ranges? Yes, I know for the most part the answer to this question is that the marketing of these cars require more and more hp (and torque) to stay competitive, but I think the tide has shifted - I think most people will accept cars with smaller, more efficient engines, which I believe offer as much power and performance as the vast majority of customers need. As for the diesels, definitely cleaner and higher mileage should be the selling points, although I don't fault BMW for pushing the performance angle - it's always been their angle and should continue to be.

— Hachee2001 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 10:35:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 14   

Performance is great, but diesels should be catering to efficiency. There is no reason to stick us with a quad-turbo V16 diesel just to prove they can be fast. Modern diesels, even the small ones like the Jetta will have are plenty powerful for a daily driver sedan.

Pushing up performance like BMW is doing is cool, but defeats the purpose of diesel in the first place. Also, VW is a good example of overkill with the V-10 TDI Toureg. Neet. But come one, spending $70k for a Toureg TDI for efficiency sake is bad math. A V6 TDI would have been more of a seller.

— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 10:49:59 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

i think both. theres no reason why it cannot be both efficient while delivering great performance.

— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 10:54:34 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

There will be a diesel for everyone's needs from Audi, BMW and Mercedes. I can't wait for them to come here. I've tried the E320 CDI and it is a very impressive machine.

— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 11:00:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

diesels should be about efficiency first and foremost while providing adequate performance. better to be phenomenal at one thing than average at multiple. consumers flock to excellence.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 11:41:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

I want a balanced vehicle. I don't think anyone wants to go back to a puny 4 cylinder that you have to push to get on to the freeway. But at the same time, tons of imports are now up to 300hp. There may be a tiny fraction of drivers that actually take their car to the track, but for the rest of us this is already overkill for American highways. Now the added low-end torque is another matter...

I want my next car to have 35-40mpg, be safe, fast, drive comfortably and have enough room for people and their stuff when I need it to. If its not pushing this too far - can it also be pleasant to look at?

Frankly, we can have it all with current technology. My next vehicle will most likely be a clean V6 or I6 diesel (hybrid or not), hopefully with an automatic that is so seamless that I never notice the shifts.

— Cary (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 11:50:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

pushrod, I think you're missing the point. I hear you - it's fine that power and room are most important to you, and that's why makers should continue to offer 300+ hp/high torque engines in good-size cars. But for many people (the majority maybe?), I really think they could do with less power in exchange for higher economy. Notice I said "LESS" power - not necessarily a puny 4 cyl engine stuck in a 3800 pound car. 200-250 HP in most midsize cars is plenty. Why not offer an S-Class with a 280HP six? I guarantee half the S-Class drivers, who are probably 60-something, would be fine with it. It's not just about saving money on fuel, it's using less of it (regarless of what some people say about supplies being plentiful - it won't last forever).

— Hachee2001 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 12:11:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10   

The whole marketing plan for diesel engine premium vehicles in the us is to give US customers an alternative that delivers better mileage without giving up what makes a premium German car a premium German car; the driving experience. It's just the perception of most Americans that diesels are slow, noisy and dirty when the new ones aren't. That perception will be changed once people have the opportunity to drive them. In the minds of most premium car buyers in the US, German cars should offer more power than a mass produced product from another country. It's part of what you are paying for. The US is a big country with lots of wide open spaces. Despite the fact that the US doesn't have an Autobahn, we still drive like we do. Small little city cars will not sell in huge numbers here. They have their place, but the bulk of the market is still going to be the SUV and the midsize sedan, both with big power.

— Neverfollow (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 12:16:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10   

Neither strategy will work.
Audi/BMW/MB don't realize pricing their cars at $60,000 won't fly since only about 40% of gas stations have diesel. If it did, E320 Bluetecs would be flying off the lots but Barrie Mercedes-Benz still has plenty on theirs and I only ever see E350s.

VW has a better chance but their clean diesel premium on top of their diesel premium prices the Jetta Blumotion the same as a better performing Prius.
In Canada, a Jetta TDI is $27,000 (it used to be $22,000) and a much cleaner Prius is $29,500 and the Prius is due to be changed in just over a year.

Diesel is still more expensive than gasoline here because the Germans refuse to bribe our governments to subsidize it like they do in Europe.
Back in 2000, diesel was about $0.55/L, now its $1.15. In the same time frame, gas has only jumped about $0.30.

Don't get me started on the 25% statement either. We're smart enough to realize that more oil for more mileage makes absolutely no sense. But we can't speak for Europe.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 12:29:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -13   

the BMW diesels give performance, and efficiency

— Larry (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 12:43:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -9   

You need both efficiency and power. People will be much more likely to shift from gasoline to a diesel if they don’t sacrifice (much) performance for 30% better gas mileage. As gas prices rise, awareness of efficiency will increase for most people but the wealthiest.

I drive 28k miles/year with a 12 year old car that does 0-60 in 7.0 seconds. I would easily trade it for a diesel that does the same or similar performance but with much better gas mileage. I’m probably more sensitive to efficiency than most due to the high mileage I rack up. My guess is that most people on this forum are more interested in performance, while the general population wants both.

— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 2:49:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

i expect diesels to be Efficients cars & Trucks, i will completely ignore the part of performance. If i want a performance I will go with petrol car or trucks. I have Armada and G35. I really don't even care abuout 0-60 in my Armada, but I do care about MPG. and I do care about the performance of G35. SO if I can buy a diesel full sixe truck with 27-30MPG diesel Armada, it had 0-60 is 8.1 sec i really don't even care...
I know most people in the forms are do worry about 0-60, because there is too many dam kids are here...

— pchera01 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 3:07:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

I frankly don't think this is an "either/or" choice, you can have both efficiency and performance. I don't know about Mercedes, but Audi and BMW appear to be appealing to the entire sprectrum of consumers. For example, Audi will offer their 3.0-liter TDI in the Q7 and the new A4, which both outperforms the 3.2-liter gas V6 and also gets significantly better gas mileage.

— Audiphile (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 3:14:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I dig anything with a manual tranny and diesel. when subaru brings that here in the states when it comes in the outback, then to hell with the forester. if it can go under 10 seconds, I won't mind.

— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 5:41:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I'm just happy to finally see so many people involved in the diesel coming to the US discussions. Finally, we will be experiencing the benefits of diesel cars that the Europeans already have been for years already.

— investor27 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 6:08:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Diesel is MORE expensive than premium. And you get to get your hand dirty/stinky when filling up unless you keep a box of disposable plastic gloves in your trunk. And the performance can't match gasoline. So, what is the BFD with diesels??? I would no more consider a diesel than howling at the moon.

— DOCSOUT (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 6:56:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

BMW

— bmwfan1513 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 7:44:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

efficiency, as it always has been. but with adequate performance (as it has recently been).

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 9:31:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

The 3 diesels will have about the same performance.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2008 9:52:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

spellchecker,
LOL, about time you gave me respect little boy.

If diesel is so good, why didn't it take off when diesel was $0.55/L in North America back in 2000 while German cars were all the rage? You think a $60,000 diesel coupled with $1.15/L is going to make it even more popular just because know-nothing Europeans say it is?

Performance is generally the same. Hybrids are dropping in price while the Germans continue to raise the price of their diesels. I bet most of you fools don't see any problems with their strategy.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 3/2/2008 12:09:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I think the engine offered in the 535d, 335d, is the best of both worlds.

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 3/2/2008 12:13:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I had a turbo charged diesel Mercedes S class in 1982. A dog! with all the negatives I opined previously. Diesels are for bulldozers and 18 wheelers that require torque. I want performance. Oh and, the reason diesel is so expensive, supposedly, is because of the ultra low sulfur mandated by the Feds.

— DOCSOUT (View Profile)

Posted on 3/2/2008 1:51:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

"They will be clean AND fuel efficient, but their focus when they promote them will be the performance aspect of the vehicles. In other words, the ultimate diesel driving machine."

The fantastic thing about diesels is, this can apply to Audi and Mercedes also, not just BMW.

I would take an A5 3.0TDI quattro if I wanted a diesel that could do it all.

Look at the new A5 commercial on the homepage of Audi's site (it's pretty good!):

http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us/en2.html

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 3/2/2008 3:37:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I would like to see diesel in US yet..., now this “yet” is a connected to rather interesting paradox, in Europe diesel is or to be precise it was, I have not been there in the last 3-4 years, cheaper then premium gas/ benzene/ petrol… I just cheek my local price of diesel here in US and for my surprise it is between 3.59-3.69 that is 30-40cents over the premium gas…, have any of you thought of calculating will it worth actually to switch to diesel in this case? Just a thought for consideration… My memories of European diesel are of small engines of even smaller cars and the cheapest fuel that there is. Not counting LPG… but that is plain insane, yet (again that “yet”) I have seen cars with big round pressurized tanks in their trunks. Not funny at all, especially when you feel the smell and see the owner lighting cigarette. I consider Easter Europeans as the bravest auto enthusiasts that there is, just because that fact.

— Trabi (View Profile)

Posted on 3/7/2008 1:17:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

check, not cheek

— Trabi (View Profile)

Posted on 3/7/2008 1:19:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1