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What Diesel Strategy Will Win In The End In The High End Market? Performance OR Efficiency/Economy?

Agent001 submitted on 03/01/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 9:40 AM
from: www.autospies.com

[42] user comments | category: Report Cards

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Tags: 2009, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Diesel

Tag Links: 2009, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Diesel

What Diesel Strategy Will Win In The End In The High End Market? Performance OR Efficiency/Economy?

As the Germans get ready to bring back diesels into the USA later this year the battle strategy is being finalized by the the main competitors, Audi, BMW and Mercedes.

On the Audi and Mercedes side the strategy seems to be to promote the cleanest and most efficient cars/trucks from a gas mileage and environmental standpoint.

On the BMW side however their move will be to promote the fact that their diesels will be the performance leaders of the pack, not necessarily the vehicle with the ABSOLUTE cleanest system or the ABSOLUTE best mileage.

They will be clean AND fuel efficient, but their focus when they promote them will be the performance aspect of the vehicles. In other words, the ultimate diesel driving machine.

Yes, Audi has the R8 diesel but that is not the car they will be selling or promoting.

We're talking about the strategy they will all push on the cars/trucks that WILL be sold here.

The question we are asking today is which strategy will be the ultimate winner?

Do customers want the cleanest most fuel efficient diesel or the best performing diesel that gets good mileage and is very clean at the high end of the market?

If/When you go looking for a diesel vehicle will you vote with your wallet for the Audi, Mercedes or BMW diesel?

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djrickp - 3/1/2008 10:19:03 AM

+9 Boost

I can only speak for myself. I want diesel for its fuel efficiency while having equal or better performance than its petrol model. Being environmentally cleaner than petrol is a plus (well, isn't better fuel efficiency good for the environment too?). I expect to pay a small premium for this technology but do not expect the price differences to be like they are for hybrid vs. petrol for the same model (I know it won't).

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Neverfollow - 3/1/2008 12:06:19 PM

+7 Boost

It's interesting that in almost any other product in the world where diesel is on option over petrol engines, the premium for diesel is way higher. In a boat for example, a high performance petrol engine package might be a $60KUS option but a diesel version of the same vessel might be $160KUS option.

Same can be said for medium duty trucks.

Why then, does a diesel option on a car not command more than say $1500-$2000?

rockreid - 3/1/2008 12:55:51 PM

+15 Boost

Months ago I put a deposit down on an Audi Q5 and let my dealer and Audi USA know that I specifically wanted a TDI. If Audi does not announce a TDI when they roll out the US-bound Q5, I will seriously consider hopping over to my nearest BMW dealer to purchase their X5 diesel instead that they have already stated to be bringing over.

Audi. Get your TDI's over ASAP.

Neverfollow - 3/21/2008 8:37:37 PM

+1 Boost

The reason for the delay is simply economic. If you launch a car in January of 2009, it can be labled as 2010 model. If you release it any time before that, it would have to be labeled a 2009 model which would affect the lease residuals. I know it's sort of cheating, but on a volume product, as the Q5 is expected to be, you get an extra 6 months of selling without any drop in residuals. The higher the "natural" resale value a car carries, reduces the amount of factory cash needed to support a lease throughout a model year. Labeling it as a 2010 gives it a good starting advantage over other makes that want to release in the fall of the previous year. Same goes for Diesel Q7, Diesel A4,A5,A6 etc.

Hachee2001 - 3/1/2008 10:35:38 AM

+14 Boost

High performance is great, but I don't understand the obsession with horsepower and fast 0-60 times the last 5 years or so. Almost all cars have much more power than they did 10 years ago, and I really think most owners really don't need or use (or probably even want) all the power that's available to them. Lots of power has its place - sports cars, top models of a range, (real) utility vehicles, etc., but why do we need an Accord with 280 hp or whatever it has? Why not offer BMWs and MBs (and the rest of their competitors) with lower powered, more efficient engines at the bottom of the ranges? Yes, I know for the most part the answer to this question is that the marketing of these cars require more and more hp (and torque) to stay competitive, but I think the tide has shifted - I think most people will accept cars with smaller, more efficient engines, which I believe offer as much power and performance as the vast majority of customers need. As for the diesels, definitely cleaner and higher mileage should be the selling points, although I don't fault BMW for pushing the performance angle - it's always been their angle and should continue to be.

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Bmw8ter - 3/1/2008 11:21:05 AM

+8 Boost

I completely agree with you. For some reason, my wife is wanting a car that will break the sound barrier. Meanwhile, I'm of the mindset that 0-60 in 6.5 seconds is more than sufficiently fast.

I'm beginning to sway in favor of better fuel economy but, If you're in the market for a brand new diesel vehicle in the U.S., expect to pay atleast $45k for one, as only the German luxury imports(Jeep Included) have them unless you want a gargantuan truck. Even a Dodge Sprinter will set you back $40k.

pushrod27 - 3/1/2008 11:24:25 AM

-9 Boost

i'll have to disagree. power is my #1 priority in an automobile. horsepower and legroom are what you need, everything else is secondary.

pushrod27 - 3/1/2008 11:34:13 AM

-7 Boost

power is a safety feature. try merging into busy expressway traffic with a full passenger load and 4 cylinders. you'll die.

Heyhuub - 3/1/2008 12:53:03 PM

+16 Boost

Overhere we still have 120hp BMW 3 series, 160hp E-classes and 210hp A8's

SteedPub - 3/1/2008 10:49:59 AM

+8 Boost

Performance is great, but diesels should be catering to efficiency. There is no reason to stick us with a quad-turbo V16 diesel just to prove they can be fast. Modern diesels, even the small ones like the Jetta will have are plenty powerful for a daily driver sedan.

Pushing up performance like BMW is doing is cool, but defeats the purpose of diesel in the first place. Also, VW is a good example of overkill with the V-10 TDI Toureg. Neet. But come one, spending $70k for a Toureg TDI for efficiency sake is bad math. A V6 TDI would have been more of a seller.

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ThierryHenry14 - 3/1/2008 10:54:34 AM

+7 Boost

i think both. theres no reason why it cannot be both efficient while delivering great performance.

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Willis - 3/1/2008 11:00:47 AM

+8 Boost

There will be a diesel for everyone's needs from Audi, BMW and Mercedes. I can't wait for them to come here. I've tried the E320 CDI and it is a very impressive machine.

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enthusiastx11 - 3/1/2008 11:41:03 AM

+6 Boost

diesels should be about efficiency first and foremost while providing adequate performance. better to be phenomenal at one thing than average at multiple. consumers flock to excellence.

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Cary - 3/1/2008 11:50:21 AM

+8 Boost

I want a balanced vehicle. I don't think anyone wants to go back to a puny 4 cylinder that you have to push to get on to the freeway. But at the same time, tons of imports are now up to 300hp. There may be a tiny fraction of drivers that actually take their car to the track, but for the rest of us this is already overkill for American highways. Now the added low-end torque is another matter...

I want my next car to have 35-40mpg, be safe, fast, drive comfortably and have enough room for people and their stuff when I need it to. If its not pushing this too far - can it also be pleasant to look at?

Frankly, we can have it all with current technology. My next vehicle will most likely be a clean V6 or I6 diesel (hybrid or not), hopefully with an automatic that is so seamless that I never notice the shifts.

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Hachee2001 - 3/1/2008 12:11:20 PM

+10 Boost

pushrod, I think you're missing the point. I hear you - it's fine that power and room are most important to you, and that's why makers should continue to offer 300+ hp/high torque engines in good-size cars. But for many people (the majority maybe?), I really think they could do with less power in exchange for higher economy. Notice I said "LESS" power - not necessarily a puny 4 cyl engine stuck in a 3800 pound car. 200-250 HP in most midsize cars is plenty. Why not offer an S-Class with a 280HP six? I guarantee half the S-Class drivers, who are probably 60-something, would be fine with it. It's not just about saving money on fuel, it's using less of it (regarless of what some people say about supplies being plentiful - it won't last forever).

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Neverfollow - 3/1/2008 12:16:37 PM

+10 Boost

The whole marketing plan for diesel engine premium vehicles in the us is to give US customers an alternative that delivers better mileage without giving up what makes a premium German car a premium German car; the driving experience. It's just the perception of most Americans that diesels are slow, noisy and dirty when the new ones aren't. That perception will be changed once people have the opportunity to drive them. In the minds of most premium car buyers in the US, German cars should offer more power than a mass produced product from another country. It's part of what you are paying for. The US is a big country with lots of wide open spaces. Despite the fact that the US doesn't have an Autobahn, we still drive like we do. Small little city cars will not sell in huge numbers here. They have their place, but the bulk of the market is still going to be the SUV and the midsize sedan, both with big power.

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huu76 - 3/1/2008 12:29:53 PM

-13 Boost

Neither strategy will work.
Audi/BMW/MB don't realize pricing their cars at $60,000 won't fly since only about 40% of gas stations have diesel. If it did, E320 Bluetecs would be flying off the lots but Barrie Mercedes-Benz still has plenty on theirs and I only ever see E350s.

VW has a better chance but their clean diesel premium on top of their diesel premium prices the Jetta Blumotion the same as a better performing Prius.
In Canada, a Jetta TDI is $27,000 (it used to be $22,000) and a much cleaner Prius is $29,500 and the Prius is due to be changed in just over a year.

Diesel is still more expensive than gasoline here because the Germans refuse to bribe our governments to subsidize it like they do in Europe.
Back in 2000, diesel was about $0.55/L, now its $1.15. In the same time frame, gas has only jumped about $0.30.

Don't get me started on the 25% statement either. We're smart enough to realize that more oil for more mileage makes absolutely no sense. But we can't speak for Europe.

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Larry - 3/1/2008 12:43:25 PM

-9 Boost

the BMW diesels give performance, and efficiency

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JRobUSC - 3/2/2008 11:21:30 AM

+1 Boost

you stated a fact. Said nothing inflammatory, nothing derogatory, just a simple fact. And you're at -10. The people on this site are unbelievable.

hybridfarce - 3/1/2008 2:49:47 PM

+3 Boost

You need both efficiency and power. People will be much more likely to shift from gasoline to a diesel if they don’t sacrifice (much) performance for 30% better gas mileage. As gas prices rise, awareness of efficiency will increase for most people but the wealthiest.

I drive 28k miles/year with a 12 year old car that does 0-60 in 7.0 seconds. I would easily trade it for a diesel that does the same or similar performance but with much better gas mileage. I’m probably more sensitive to efficiency than most due to the high mileage I rack up. My guess is that most people on this forum are more interested in performance, while the general population wants both.

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pchera01 - 3/1/2008 3:07:26 PM

+4 Boost

i expect diesels to be Efficients cars & Trucks, i will completely ignore the part of performance. If i want a performance I will go with petrol car or trucks. I have Armada and G35. I really don't even care abuout 0-60 in my Armada, but I do care about MPG. and I do care about the performance of G35. SO if I can buy a diesel full sixe truck with 27-30MPG diesel Armada, it had 0-60 is 8.1 sec i really don't even care...
I know most people in the forms are do worry about 0-60, because there is too many dam kids are here...

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Audiphile - 3/1/2008 3:14:19 PM

+1 Boost

I frankly don't think this is an "either/or" choice, you can have both efficiency and performance. I don't know about Mercedes, but Audi and BMW appear to be appealing to the entire sprectrum of consumers. For example, Audi will offer their 3.0-liter TDI in the Q7 and the new A4, which both outperforms the 3.2-liter gas V6 and also gets significantly better gas mileage.

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Htay7500 - 3/1/2008 5:41:36 PM

+2 Boost

I dig anything with a manual tranny and diesel. when subaru brings that here in the states when it comes in the outback, then to hell with the forester. if it can go under 10 seconds, I won't mind.

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investor27 - 3/1/2008 6:08:42 PM

+2 Boost

I'm just happy to finally see so many people involved in the diesel coming to the US discussions. Finally, we will be experiencing the benefits of diesel cars that the Europeans already have been for years already.

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DOCSOUT - 3/1/2008 6:56:58 PM

+1 Boost

Diesel is MORE expensive than premium. And you get to get your hand dirty/stinky when filling up unless you keep a box of disposable plastic gloves in your trunk. And the performance can't match gasoline. So, what is the BFD with diesels??? I would no more consider a diesel than howling at the moon.

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damikco - 3/1/2008 8:37:09 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

I agree whole heartedly no deisel is going to work if it cost more then gasoline, and its cheaper to produce then gasoline, i just feel bad for the poor truckers that have to buy deisel and operate independintly.

bmwfan1513 - 3/1/2008 7:44:39 PM

0 Boost

BMW

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1995e34 - 3/1/2008 9:44:29 PM

+2 Boost

great point.

1995e34 - 3/1/2008 9:31:54 PM

+2 Boost

efficiency, as it always has been. but with adequate performance (as it has recently been).

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chewy - 3/1/2008 9:52:03 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

The 3 diesels will have about the same performance.

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huu76 - 3/2/2008 12:09:15 AM

0 Boost

spellchecker,
LOL, about time you gave me respect little boy.

If diesel is so good, why didn't it take off when diesel was $0.55/L in North America back in 2000 while German cars were all the rage? You think a $60,000 diesel coupled with $1.15/L is going to make it even more popular just because know-nothing Europeans say it is?

Performance is generally the same. Hybrids are dropping in price while the Germans continue to raise the price of their diesels. I bet most of you fools don't see any problems with their strategy.

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Willis - 3/2/2008 2:34:32 AM

+3 Boost

If diesel is so good, why didn't it take off when diesel was $0.55/L in North America...

I think you can answer this question yourself, that is, if you have a brain and use something called logic.

M53R - 3/2/2008 12:13:50 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I think the engine offered in the 535d, 335d, is the best of both worlds.

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DOCSOUT - 3/2/2008 1:51:26 PM

+2 Boost

I had a turbo charged diesel Mercedes S class in 1982. A dog! with all the negatives I opined previously. Diesels are for bulldozers and 18 wheelers that require torque. I want performance. Oh and, the reason diesel is so expensive, supposedly, is because of the ultra low sulfur mandated by the Feds.

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Rupert - 3/2/2008 4:57:18 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Well in 1982 diesels did suck - seriously, drive a modern S320 cdi and you will be amazed - and it's as fast as the S350, with great mpg, around 28 US combined, and 35 on the highway.

Rupert - 3/2/2008 4:58:57 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

More like 38 highway, sorry.

S4cabriofoxone - 3/2/2008 3:37:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

"They will be clean AND fuel efficient, but their focus when they promote them will be the performance aspect of the vehicles. In other words, the ultimate diesel driving machine."

The fantastic thing about diesels is, this can apply to Audi and Mercedes also, not just BMW.

I would take an A5 3.0TDI quattro if I wanted a diesel that could do it all.

Look at the new A5 commercial on the homepage of Audi's site (it's pretty good!):

http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us/en2.html

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Trabi - 3/7/2008 1:17:29 AM

+1 Boost

I would like to see diesel in US yet..., now this “yet” is a connected to rather interesting paradox, in Europe diesel is or to be precise it was, I have not been there in the last 3-4 years, cheaper then premium gas/ benzene/ petrol… I just cheek my local price of diesel here in US and for my surprise it is between 3.59-3.69 that is 30-40cents over the premium gas…, have any of you thought of calculating will it worth actually to switch to diesel in this case? Just a thought for consideration… My memories of European diesel are of small engines of even smaller cars and the cheapest fuel that there is. Not counting LPG… but that is plain insane, yet (again that “yet”) I have seen cars with big round pressurized tanks in their trunks. Not funny at all, especially when you feel the smell and see the owner lighting cigarette. I consider Easter Europeans as the bravest auto enthusiasts that there is, just because that fact.

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Trabi - 3/7/2008 1:19:38 AM

+1 Boost

check, not cheek

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