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What Premium/Luxury Brands Truly Can Stand The Test Of Time?

Agent009 submitted on 06/19/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 1:44 PM
from: cnwmr.com

[99] user comments | category: Misc News

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What Premium/Luxury Brands Truly Can Stand The Test Of Time?

What is the definition of true quality and reliability?

Listening to many of our readers, it all seems to be about what happens in the first three years of ownership. While that is an important factor, most of us are only concerned about the reliability and construction of the vehicle during the short tenure in our care. A very short time frame. But what happens after that?

Shouldn’t the true quality be also based on the longevity of the vehicle in years and or miles before it is sent to the scrap yard? Listening to some of you, one might think some marques could barely drive off of the lot before it starts shedding parts. But in a research paper published by CNW, a private think tank, just over a year ago the real truth may be nestled deep in the facts.

CNW’s “Dust to Dust” report gained notoriety at first by exposing the total energy footprint of hundreds of vehicles and exposed the true cost of energy expended from inception to demise. The most controversial point was that a Hummer due to its longevity was far better for the environment than a Prius over the full course of manufacture to demise. Interestingly enough to this date, no study has yet proven this conclusion contrary.

But after blowing the dust off of the report recently I noted a detailed analysis sitting right there, of specific vehicle life expectancies and total mileage before retirement. Hmm, how did I miss this? What a better way to gauge “true quality” then as to how long a vehicle typically lasts before it is scrapped. This means that quality of engineering and materials are tested to the absolute end and a true point of no return has been reached.

I bet you guys can’t wait to see the details but before we get to the statistics, a few parameters must be laid down:

1. These are general averages. Many consumers exceed these figures but many also do not.

2. Mileage is based on historical data as well as manufacturer information and real-world life-cycle information that average the miles over comparable historic models as well as a CNW analysis of repair and replacement as well as scrappage records. In effect, the miles figure here is a realistic approximation of the likely life-cycle of the individual models over the course of the life time.

3. Assumption of overall reliability of a brand can not be reached using these figures. You can’t average averages to gain anything meaningful.

4. No one can assume the amount of repairs needed to maintain any of these vehicles, but one may assume that if the costs were too great then the vehicle would be scrapped.

Overall Life Expectancy

Years Miles Vehicle
25.80 241,000 Volkswagen Phaeton
20.63 202,000 Audi allroad quattro
19.85 256,000 M-Benz E class
18.44 223,000 Lexus LS 430
18.39 219,000 Lincoln Town Car
18.14 216,000 Cadillac STS
16.33 207,000 BMW 5 Series
16.09 202,000 Volvo 80 series
15.50 203,000 Cadillac DeVille
15.36 201,000 Infiniti Q45
15.35 181,000 Lexus GS 430
14.72 189,000 Audi A6
14.53 190,000 Cadillac DTS
13.85 165,000 Jaguar S-Type
13.04 164,000 Acura RL
12.30 162,000 Cadillac Seville
12.08 143,000 BMW M3
10.80 126,000 Infiniti M45
10.31 131,000 Lexus GS 300

15.87 190,579 Total Luxury Car

14.79 185,000 Volvo 70 series
14.63 179,000 Mercury Zephyr
14.18 176,000 BMW 330
13.95 172,000 Lexus ES 330
13.93 182,000 Acura CL
13.69 169,000 Jaguar X-Type
13.47 171,000 Acura TL
13.44 171,000 M-Benz C class
13.42 179,000 Buick Park Avenue
13.31 171,000 BMW 325
13.11 162,000 Lexus IS 300
13.06 172,000 Infiniti G35
12.23 160,000 Cadillac CTS
12.05 162,000 Saab 9-5
12.04 156,000 Lincoln LS
11.99 161,000 Volvo 60 series

13.33 170,500 Total Near Luxury Cars

21.94 251,000 M-Benz S class
19.12 214,000 Audi A8
17.44 201,000 BMW 7 Series
13.89 162,000 Jaguar XJ
13.85 162,000 Maserati Maserati

17.25 198,000 Total Premium Cars

15.52 188,000 Infiniti I30/I35
15.05 193,000 Nissan Maxima
14.94 183,000 Dodge Magnum
14.36 182,000 Saab 9-3
14.30 192,000 Volkswagen Passat
13.80 192,000 Chrysler 300/300M
13.61 169,000 Acura TSX
13.20 172,000 Dodge Charger
12.86 162,000 Volvo 40 series
12.76 171,000 Audi S4
12.61 171,000 Saab 9-2
12.43 152,000 Buick Regal
12.39 151,000 Mitsubishi Diamante
12.32 172,000 Ford Five Hundred
12.10 165,000 Buick LaCrosse
12.10 169,000 Audi A4
11.35 152,000 Mercury Montego
10.00 136,000 Mazda Millenia

13.09 170,667 Total Premium Mid-Range

21.91 237,000 M-Benz CLS class
16.85 191,000 M-Benz CLK class
16.82 171,000 Ford Thunderbird
15.42 177,000 BMW Z8
13.85 162,000 Chevrolet Corvette
13.53 147,000 BMW Z4
13.28 159,000 M-Benz SLK class
13.25 157,000 Porsche Boxster
12.37 141,000 Audi TT
10.99 131,000 Chrysler Crossfire

14.83 167,300 Total Premium Sporty Cars

34.96 379,000 Hummer H1
28.11 301,000 Toyota Land Cruiser
23.15 239,000 Cadillac Escalade
22.83 237,000 M-Benz G class
22.82 234,000 Cadillac Escalade ESV
19.51 213,000 Lexus LX 470
19.19 206,000 Land Rover Range Rvr
18.93 186,000 Volkswagen Touareg
18.44 197,000 Hummer H2
18.14 193,000 Porsche Cayenne
18.00 201,000 Lincoln Navigator

22.19 235,091 Total Premium SUV

15.82 229,000 Volvo XC90
15.15 195,000 Acura MDX
14.39 215,000 M-Benz M class
14.11 192,000 Lexus RX330
13.88 177,000 Infiniti FX45
12.59 166,000 BMW X5
12.54 164,000 M-Benz R class
12.46 173,000 Infiniti FX35
12.26 167,000 BMW X3
11.49 171,000 Cadillac SRX
11.31 156,000 Volvo 50 series

13.27 182,273 Total Premium Sportwagons

24.43 271,000 Bentley Bentley
24.23 273,000 Rolls-Royce All
23.04 257,000 Maybach All
16.33 186,000 Porsche Carrera GT
13.87 156,000 Aston Martin All
10.94 121,000 Lamborghini All
10.59 119,000 Ferrar Ferrari
10.31 116,000 Ford GT

16.72 187,375 Total Ultra Luxury

16.37 222,000 Land Rover LR3
15.34 206,000 Land Rover Range Rover Sport
15.28 207,000 Hummer H3
14.70 203,000 Land Rover Discovery
14.32 202,000 GMC Envoy
13.28 191,000 Lincoln Aviator
12.59 176,000 Buick Rainier
12.53 177,000 Lexus GX 470
12.29 171,000 Mercury Mountaineer
10.81 143,000 Saab 9-7X
10.58 151,000 Infiniti QX4
10.42 147,000 Subaru B9 Tribeca

13.21 183,000 Total Upper Mid-Range SUV

19.55 188,000 M-Benz CL class
18.70 192,000 Acura NSX
17.29 188,000 Jaguar XK
16.06 164,000 Cadillac XLR
15.82 173,000 BMW 6 Series
15.61 164,000 Porsche 911 Carrera
15.56 165,000 M-Benz SC 430
15.16 169,000 M-Benz SL Coupe/Roadster
13.27 151,000 Porsche 911 Carrera 4
11.50 121,000 Lotus Lotus
10.42 118,000 Dodge Viper

15.36 163,000 Total Upper Premium Sportscars

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Will_ - 6/19/2007 1:55:56 PM

0 Boost

Yeah great, but us real enthusiasts don't care about such frivolous concerns such as reliability and materials and such.

reply to this comment

Will_ - 6/19/2007 2:01:33 PM

+3 Boost

Okay sorry, I promised no sarcasm today didn't I?

Agent009, your opening remarks are the flip side of what most German supporters have said here. They claim that everyone in the world that buys luxury cars only leases them for 2-3 years or so, so the reliability after that point doesn't matter to them.

I don't know who it is you're "listening to" but I'm sure whomever it is that has you under the impression that some makes can't even get their cars off dealership lots before breaking down isn't to be taken seriously on that issue. I for one, have never said that, although some here believe that I think that.

Will_ - 6/19/2007 2:12:42 PM

+6 Boost

I didn't choose anything you arrogant fool. My comments are not meant for airheads such as yourself, so stop worrying.

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 2:14:27 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Will_ I never said I was supporting the German fans or the Japanese fans. On this one there are winners and losers in the mix for both sides.

The comments here from many of the avid fans leads most of us to believe they get a new car every few years, (some it seems like days) And that is typical of a lease. In no way am I assuming the majority of us are that prolific in ownership.

As far as listening to those about car with parts falling off. We do have a few misguided souls out there that do believe if they dare sit in a competitors vehicle, they will bet sent to a leper colony. Those views are the ones I was referring to, they seem think everything they do not own must surely self destruct at a given moment.

As far as your comments go, they are typically spot on, and you are simply expressing your viewpoint. No problems there and this article is in no way pointed to anyone.

TheSailor - 6/19/2007 6:06:32 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Who are they meant for then? Yourself? So you can get that warm fuzzy feeling of "Hah... I've just made fun of all the german fanboys, boy do they look stupid now"? Guess what... It isn't the German fans who look stupid...

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:01:51 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

TheSailor- I really don't see how this favors anyone really. Almost all makes have winners and losers in the mix. It is open for individual interpretation, if you view it negatively then I encourage you to find the bright spots in the list and worry a bit less on those areas you don't agree with.

I though it was interesting and posted it as informational. we rarely explore the pre-owned viewpoint.

cdoke - 6/19/2007 2:01:46 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Well,

23.04 257,000 Maybach All

In what manner exactly, did they come up with this number?

I guess the real question is what kind of time limitation ins there? Please tell me they are not using Maybachs from the 1920's. I don't suppose they happen to list the samaple size numbers?

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 2:17:27 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

You need to read the 300+ page report.

It actually spells it out, believe it or not. But in a nutshell they know the year of manufacture and the ending mileage and extrapolate estimated mileage, and longevity by past histories.

cdoke - 6/19/2007 2:41:22 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Given what you have said, I can guarantee that for some of these vehicles there are sample size issues. That method as well is the antithesis fo perfect, but if you want to do any analysis, you have to make some type of assumption. They are not as specific as I would prefer.

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 2:47:38 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

cdoke- In the case of the Maybach you may have a point, but I would think that say a BMW 5 series would be less of an issue due to the higher numbers in the zample?

cdoke - 6/19/2007 3:04:29 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Most certainly. The Maybach one just struck me as particularly odd. Obviously the newer ones haven't been around for 23 years, and 257,000 achieved by now even from 2002 is 51,400 miles per year. How many actually have such mileage? Basically, you'll have a dearth of direct data in this instance. They had to do some pretty serious estimations on this one I would say.

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 3:15:18 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

I would imagine the Maybach data was derived somewhat from the corresponding Mercedes models they are based on? That would not be a leap of faith.

1970toyotamarc - 6/19/2007 4:21:24 PM

+3 Boost

just about everything CNW reports is a leap of faith, why should this be any different?

cdoke - 6/19/2007 4:48:18 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Agent 009,

I thought that too. The S-class listed on their list is not equivalent to the Maybach [Maybach is higher, but close], but I am not sure about what model year exactly the S-class data is for.

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:06:11 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

cdoke- I would ASS-U-ME that they took the data sets from the year S-class the Maybach was based on.

The S-class as a whole probably would then include all versions there is data available for to get to the most accurate reading for the line as a whole. But this is your area of expertise, I am simply taking an educated guess.

cdoke - 6/19/2007 2:03:12 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

...you would think I am rather slow given all of the typographical errors.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 2:48:17 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

I think I can join you in that group.

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:07:54 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I believe that might be covered under:

"These are general averages. Many consumers exceed these figures but many also do not. "

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 6/20/2007 2:01:02 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

06GS300, tell me this: have you owned a recent German vehicle? When I say "recent," I mean from the twenty-first century. If not, please shut your trap. Thank you.

reply to this comment

vdiv - 6/19/2007 2:07:50 PM

+1 Boost

The problem with studies like these is that they are based on estimates and best guesses, not hard facts. Life expectancy of a vehicle largely depends on its caretaker (owner/driver) and as such it is very subjective.

Since you are concentrating on "luxury/premium" cars you have to first agree on what that means in term of the total user experience and at what point these cars cease to be "luxury/premium". The answer lies in your posting, 2 to 3 years. Almost all of these cars continue some form of existence afterwards but is it truly "luxury/premium"?

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 2:21:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

They have to be based of of estimates, just like any study. A typical example might be a Mercedes sitting in a collection for 40 years. Still out there and getting older but no miles accumulating so it is an exception rather than the rule.

On the flipside I saw an Audi 5000 the other day with almost 400,000 miles. Hard to believe but true. that also is an exception.

answer - 6/19/2007 2:21:33 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

You posted something truly stupid, just as expected.

reply to this comment

flozel1 - 6/19/2007 2:54:40 PM

+1 Boost

The funniest though is when formula1diot removes the bag over his head and shows the world the ultimate in ugliness.

That, or his IQ level.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 3:20:30 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

formula1- Last time I looked these facts had nothing to do with "ugly" people. Have you looked in the mirror lately?

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 3:18:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

No actually you can look at past histories and extrapolate to a fair degree of accuracy and extract a reasonable figure.

But cdoke is by far the expert in this area. Maybe he can break it down in layman's terms for us.

I am merely the messenger of the data.

reply to this comment

r_driver04 - 6/19/2007 3:54:43 PM

0 Boost

They look even better in a service bay, provided there are enough. Benz has awesome vehicles that have serious reliability issues. If you can't stand the facts buy a Lexus. Lexus is a more reliable Benz with less bite.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 4:15:07 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

XeroK00L those types of issues are documented for dang near any marque. I see them all of the time for everything from Mercedes to Lexus (yes there are Lexus issues too). So don't think that any marque has a stranglehold on issues.

My opinion on high mileage cars basically is after 100K it all depends on the initial maintenance performed by the first owner. If they were diligent and used the proper maintenance then the car will probably keep on ticking.

If they cut corners you will have problems no matter what marque.

reply to this comment

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 4:33:53 PM

+1 Boost

"Those problems are typical for the Japanese made cars. Engine sludge(Toyota), transmission failures(Honda)engine stalls (Lexus), brakes_ a huge problem for the Japanese car makers with rotors that need to be replaced after 3-5000 miles. Japanese cars are a menace when it comes to reliability and the problems are extremely severe. All the complains I heard about German cars were related to light bulbs, window regulators, cup holders, things that don't affect safety or driveability.."

tht doesnt make them any less reliable. every brand has their own problems.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 4:44:32 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I can not attest to the fact at how bad the rotors are on so many Japanese cars.

The main difference is they are treated as expendable parts vs serviceable parts. To the end consumer the brake jobs will run two to three times the amount of a serviceable unit.

reply to this comment

ErichHartmann - 6/19/2007 5:29:34 PM

+1 Boost

XeroKool, you are completely off with your poor assessment. I'll leave it at that.

reply to this comment

answer - 6/19/2007 4:14:45 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I love your username.

reply to this comment

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 4:28:03 PM

+2 Boost

me too.

reply to this comment

1970toyotamarc - 6/19/2007 4:18:30 PM

-2 Boost

"The most controversial point was that a Hummer due to its longevity was far better for the environment than a Prius over the full course of manufacture to demise. Interestingly enough to this date, no study has yet proven this conclusion contrary."

Wrong wrong wrong.

Quit posting this lie. The study has been debunked by many sources. look it up. i dont have the time. but the highlights debunking the false assumptions used to prove this point are...

Vehicles use most of their energy during driving, not production.
The nickel mines wer cleaned up prior to Toyota coming on board.
Priuses last MUCH longer than the standard being estimated in the study.
Batteries also are lasting much longer than anticipated.

I trust nothing from CNW after that crap.

STOP POSTING THE LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 4:45:45 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Name a source please... I haven't found a one that has done any research on the topic. Only banter (and pretty lame banter at that).

1970toyotamarc - 6/19/2007 7:05:07 PM

+1 Boost

I swear, now you're just trying to piss me off, 009. You know full well that it has not just been lame banter. So I had to take some time to do some research just for thus little game. And actually it took all of five seconds to find Car Connection article that does a fairly good job. If thats not enough, do it yourself. I'm really tired of continually having to contradict the CNW b.s.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Prius_Versus_HUMMER_Exploding_the_Myth.S196.A12220.html?pg=1

"David Friedman, research director of the Clean Vehicles Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, thinks that CNW's results and apparent methodology bring red flags. "This study has been completely contradicted by studies from MIT, Argonne National Labs and Carnegie Mellon's Lifecycle Assessment Group. The reality is hybrids can significantly cut global warming pollution, reduce energy use, and save drivers thousands at the pump," commented Friedman."

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:41:56 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

1970toyotamarc - Interesting article but you may have missed a few points:

The MIT study "On the Road in 2020: An Assessment of the Future of Transportation Technology" was in 2001, and never covered the production pollution and disposal pollution or shipping of the vehicle from overseas. It concentrated purely on green house gases in use. The article BTW has been pulled from the MIT archives for some reason.

2. The Center for Transportation Research of Argonne National Labs presentation called “Energy and Emission Effects of the Vehicle Cycle” at the 2006 SAE World Congress also concentrate on the same factor not the manufacturing process or disposal.

3. The only similar report was almost a decade ago starting in research in 1992 and reporting in 1998. Back then the cost of gas was at $1.00 a gallon not the current $3.00 a gallon average so I would imagine those figures are in need of revision. BTW the source for that was Carnegie Mellon University. (gas prices came from http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp#)

I don't know all of the details on the research and neither do you, but CNW does has a fine reputation, and again the reports countering the assessments don't give any hard facts starting from the beginning to the end. The bulk concentrate on the consumption and emissions aspect under operation, and those figure are fully in favor of the Hybrid. The problem is before delivery and after.

1970toyotamarc - 6/20/2007 12:29:19 AM

+1 Boost

009, I didnt miss any points. What exactly are you trying to prove by trying to refute each study point by point?

1. and 2. points you claim are not focsuing on the production and disposal, as CNW's big claim is all about. As if that means that what they did research is invalid. But indeed the point here is that environmental damage is done mostly during the DRIVING of a car, not in its mfr or diposal. But,, in any case, for mfrg, the Prius technology is being shared amongst many vehciles, thus negating CNW's claims that the Hummer is green because it is based on another vehicle. Forget the fact that if this were the case, then we would never get any new cars, and every car would be based on the same platform. However, for the Prius, it may have been new at first, but what Toyota has created is used in no fewer than 5 other vehicles, with many mor to come. Of course, that is all moot, because as everyone except CNW and you seem to get is that (once again) environmental damage occurs during DRIVING.

3. point, Im not sure what you are arguing here. As gas is more expensive, and oil becoming more scarce, the need for a high mpg vehicle is even more clear, an example once again of how we need to look at the driving of the car, not its production.

And let's talk about disposal. How much of the Hummer is recyclable? What plan does GM have in place for recycling the behemoth.

Unless you really can come up with ONE CREDIBLE source that agrees with all of CNW's b.s., dont try to refute what every other source has come up with, just because you dont think they each answer every question fully.

You know, sometimes I get a kick out of your Toy/Lex hatred. It's so hilariously transparent (Copying Lexus Badge-Engineering, Buy the Tundra, Please.) But really, i's tedious. And I cant believe you continue to get away with it. This is AUTOSpies, not antiJapanSpies, AntiToyotaSpies, Pro-GermanSpies.

Homer008 - 6/19/2007 4:44:45 PM

-1 Boost

Agent009, why would you post this crap on here????
You get all nervous about Consumer Reports and post only first top 10 cars for reliability in attempt to hide the fact that anything below top 10 you post is all German trash at the bottom of the study i.e. VW being at the most bottom. And you post every god damn thing about this milage crap. Let me tell you something son..Toyota pickups and Corollas from 80's are still being driven all over the world especially in Middle eastern countries to Africa where the heat would blow the POS engines of BMW's like it did on the test track while Japanese counterpart kept going.
Agent009, leave your crackpipes at home.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 4:50:07 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I am confident in myself and my posts. You never see me jumping on any band wagon pro or con..I post em all good an bad.

But I do find that this neutral post seems to ruffle your feathers a bit for some reason. No one is picking on anyone.

Why?

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 4:51:54 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

BTW. I merely posted the FACTS if you have an article obtained by real analysis then post it and I personally will approve it..

The ball is in your court now.. are you up to the task?

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:53:30 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

BTW thanks for the compliment, (calling me "son") But I probably was in my third year of SCCA club racing when you were in diapers watching Sesame Street.

Homer008 - 6/19/2007 4:47:52 PM

-3 Boost

formula1sucks, go findout some facts before you keep making yourself look fu..ing retarded.
German cars are faltering not on a cupholders okay..the fact is their engines and electrical are problematic. The body torsion stiffness is also crappy after just a few years.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 4:53:28 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

electric are typically the snafu. But the last few example of Japanese cars I have owned are no better. (Lexus and Honda)

The more complicated the device the more issues can crop up.

david999 - 6/19/2007 5:11:19 PM

-1 Boost

Anybody that believes that a Hummer or VW would be tops in
any reliability/longevity list still believes the Moon is made out of cheese.

reply to this comment

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 5:58:50 PM

+2 Boost

"-VW surely buries any Japanese car in long term reliability."

not in the US.

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 6:05:53 PM

+2 Boost

we do, and its crap. our passat spent more time in the shop than our accord did. but idk if it was made in mexico. its more like chinese food being made by a mexican.

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 6:21:38 PM

+2 Boost

here in the US, VWs tend to be less reliable due to build quality, electronics, etc. sometimes i think it could be the harsh regulations on new technologies coming from europe. VW doesnt have any offerings here. no RWD cars in production. but i know VW is probably the best company over in europe.

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 6:23:42 PM

0 Boost

some guys I know too have problems w/ their VWs.

ErichHartmann - 6/19/2007 5:19:19 PM

+5 Boost

I currently drive the new C220 CDI (company car), but privately I own a 1978 Mercedes 240D with 837,000+ km's.

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 6/19/2007 6:12:25 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I fail to see how they've come up with these numbers... They just sort of guessed some numbers for each model? What about those cars with several different models sharing the same name but are from different years? How can they claim that the A6 will last 25 years on average? No A6 is 25 years old, and though some might have done 250.000 miles, I can't see how they can derive anything from that... Surely the different engine models must have a different life expectancy! I know for a fact that the 2.7 TT engine can't possibly last 250.000 miles without some serious overhauls once in a while... This is silly!

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M316 - 6/19/2007 6:28:10 PM

0 Boost

I happen to live in a "3rd world" country and can attest to the fact that ancient LR Defenders such as I have never seen in the U.S are alive and well. Mercedes from the 70's and 80's are still going strong the newer models from both brands are crap. I see them going to the dealers on tow trucks all the time and I have a friend with an 04-05 Benz E320 which was towed to the dealer 4 times before 100,000 miles. In contrast I have driven 2 Civics to 225000 KM and sold them and both are still going strong in addition my 2004 Mazda 3 has 120000km and has had 1 minor problem

reply to this comment

Htay7500 - 6/19/2007 8:36:03 PM

+1 Boost

how many mi is 225k km? i know 120k mi is about 80k mi

Neverfollow - 6/19/2007 7:56:46 PM

+7 Boost

The average amount of time a US consumer keeps a new car is about 3.2 years. That number hasn't changed much in many years. That is why you see so many deals on 36 to 39mo leases. They're simply aligning with consumer demand. The manufacturer still has a vested interest in the long term serviceability of a vehicle for many reasons. Number one on that list in the US is resale value. The higher the "natural" resale value (usually found in the RVLG) a vehicle has, the less money the marketing department of that particular manufacturer needs to allocate to the sales department for incentives. Beyond that, there are recyling concerns, service and parts sales.

For European clients, the average time a consumer keeps a car is considerably longer, many times up to 10-12 years. This is probably why you see much longer service life expectancy out of the European brands.

reply to this comment

Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:51:30 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

It probably goes back to the intended design philosophy. It is arguably easier to design a car to be relatively trouble free for 4 years than to last for 20 years.

But many of you are missing the main point that this is life expectancy, if the repairs are too serious then the typical owner will junk it at that point. And some of you are assuming that this is some sort of reliability study, it is about longevity with or without the problems of long term ownership.

pchera01 - 6/19/2007 9:40:42 PM

+1 Boost

My 1995 Maxima GLE had 230K with out anyproblems at all and My 92 Honda Accord EX Coupe with 227 with one majour problem, Tranny issue, was good to me
these #'s very close and accurate

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M316 - 6/19/2007 10:22:33 PM

0 Boost

Are you telling me what I see with my own eyes Kalimba. Be serious BMW blows Mercedes outta the water in my country because noone want to be in the new Benz broken down along side the road. The dealers have also given up on VW Opels and Peugeot here (I personally like Peugeots)because of too many problems. btw my friends car is a taxi gasoline not diesel his problems are very real along with several other taxi guys I know personally who have switched back to Toyotas and Lexus because the E and S class (C's are not popular here)were to unreliable and making them lose money.

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Agent009 - 6/19/2007 10:55:21 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Lexus does make a good taxi..... did I really just say that?

Homer008 - 6/19/2007 11:45:15 PM

0 Boost

Agent009, new book from Lee IaCocca states that hybrid was studied but not followed through years back and main reason was? Hybrid was very complex.

Having said this..You give us readers a bullshit excuse about German cars being POS in a reliability due to more complex issue and more issue crop. Well, Son..you are dead WRONG. All hybrid has done excellent in reliability, period. Prius was ranked #1 along with Honda Civic hybrid. So much for complexity bullshit excuse you try so hard to patchup your so precious German crap cars.

hunky

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S4cabriofoxone - 6/20/2007 2:04:37 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Oh, what a dumb article... I expect nothing less.

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mkaresh - 6/21/2007 6:40:58 PM

+2 Boost

Sorry, 009, but I would base absolutely nothing on the CNW study. So many numbers in the study are clearly way off the mark, including these longevity numbers.

Life expectancies around 130,000 miles for both the Infiniti M and Lexus GS? Right.

That said, more expensive can be expected to last longer than cheaper ones for one simple reason: it makes financial sense to repair them rather than junk them for more years than is the case with a cheaper car. People will spend far more money to keep a 10-year-old Mercedes going than they will to keep a 10-year-old Plymouth going.

Michael Karesh
TrueDelta

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bevisroy - 6/21/2007 10:17:24 PM

-2 Boost

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz show 5.4 in their specs)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the (REPREHENSIBLE) Toyota/Lexus people.....

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xj13 - 6/22/2007 8:37:36 AM

0 Boost

Lexus does make a good taxi..... I love that..thanks 009

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DieselRules - 6/23/2007 2:07:54 AM

+1 Boost

Interesting the Volvo could come 1st and last in the same class.
How'd they do that?
Could that be Ford's platform-sharing messing with Volvo's traditional longevity?

Also interesting that 1970toyotamarc can be so confused. He somehow thinks that the design activity of a vehicle (affected by platform sharing, etc.) has something to do with production related energy and pollution consumption. Not at all the case.

Production (& recycling ... life-cycle attributes) are related to the purification of materials. For example, aluminum takes enormous amounts of energy to produce, and the bulk of a Prius' mileage advantages come from aerodynamic and weight reductions compared to other cars: weight savings coming from aluminum (to help offset additional motor weight, and batteries) and magnesium.

Speaking of motors, hybrids typically use "high-performance" materials to increase efficiency, such as cobalt and molybdenum, and other rare metals. Forget NICKEL ... these other materials are more damaging to the environment in their production.

Fortunately for the planet, there are not enough rare metals to build hybrids in high volumes. So we're safe from their damage over the long term!

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scottst - 6/25/2007 2:42:42 PM

+1 Boost

https://rmi.org/images/PDFs/Transportation/T07-01_DustToDust.pdf

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