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Why would I want a diesel instead of a hybrid?

MidEngine submitted on 01/19/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 1:37 PM
from: www.automobilemag.com

[81] user comments | category: Misc News

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Tags: Diesels Hybrids

Tag Link: Diesels Hybrids

Why would I want a diesel instead of a hybrid?

"That's a really simple question with a really simple answer: Because if you want to save money, you don't want a hybrid. Studies have shown that people are buying hybrid cars to send a message - not to save money. This is a good thing, because while they do save a little bit of fuel, they don't save money."

Aren't diesels slow?

"How about this for an answer: I lost a race in the new 414-hp, V-8 M3 last week to a diesel. I pulled up to a red light next to my photographer's six-cylinder, automatic-transmission 530d station wagon. When the light turned green, I dumped the clutch from 2000 rpm and floored it. And the automatic diesel station wagon dusted my M3 off the line. I didn't catch up until 60 mph."
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pacotacolol - 1/20/2008 10:40:04 PMView My AgentSpace

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i dont know. thats a tough question, lol!

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hummer31 - 1/21/2008 4:39:50 AM

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ok i dont know that

GreenPlease - 1/21/2008 11:02:26 AM

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Why?

1. The Diesel cycle uses a more efficient combustion method: compression induced
2. Diesel engines have a higher compression ratio and therefore have higher thermodynamic efficiency (better fuel economy)
3. Modern Diesel engines have a much more usable power band.
4. Modern Diesel engines have LOWER PM, CO, and CO2 engines (they are cleaner).
5. Modern Diesel engines are quieter at cruise.
6. They last FOREVER. This is due to the fact that they have to be "overbuilt" to survive compression induced combustion.

Why Not?

1. Modern diesel engines have higher NOX emissions (for now).
2. Due to their RPM restricted nature, diesel engines will always have lower specific power ratings than their gasoline bretheren.
3. Diesels sound like crap at high RPM (5k rpm).

I95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 1/21/2008 2:14:57 PM

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Lucky he was not driving the 535d, Then you would have really been embarassed.

TheSailor - 1/21/2008 5:58:41 PMView My AgentSpace

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Actually, newer diesels DOESN'T have higher NOX emmisions since they can be fitted (now) with NOX-scrubbing filters...

bmwdrvr - 1/20/2008 11:27:52 PM

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charged up at night in your garage with solar energy???? huh

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S4cabriofoxone - 1/21/2008 12:35:34 AMView My AgentSpace

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The point is, YOU CANNOT CHARGE SOMETHING WITH SOLAR POWER AT NIGHT. Sun = solar. Sun = day. Day does not = night.

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enthusiastx11 - 1/21/2008 1:13:49 AM

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"I believe the answer is plug in hybrids that use no gas at all and can be charged up at night in your garage from solar energy. ZERO emissions and free."

actually, a plug-in car is false hope for environmentalists. very few people have solar power or live in a place that's sunny enough to generate solar power. the MAJORITY of electricity in the united states is produced by COAL-FIRED plants. since when is burning coal a zero emissions process?

if we as a nation were to get over our hang ups about nulear powerplants and generate our electricity that way, plug-ins would be a great solution.

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Rupert - 1/21/2008 12:28:30 PMView My AgentSpace

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GoObama - that's not true.
You would need a whole roof of Solar Panels in a very sunny area to have anything like the energy needed to charge a Tesla. And since 1 solar panel costs something like 7000 pounds, money saving is not really happening.

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enthusiastx11 - 1/21/2008 12:36:26 PM

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frustrated goobama?
why the name calling?

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enthusiastx11 - 1/21/2008 12:39:46 PM

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go:

so if such sophisticated solar power generation is accessible already why hasn't it been adopted? could it be that it's prohibitively expensive for people to install the systems in their individual homes?

again, not a realistic solution. talk to me in 20 years when the technology is affordable.

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TheSailor - 1/21/2008 6:12:59 PMView My AgentSpace

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Plug in hybrids is not the answer because you just move the pollution... And since such a vast amount of the energy produced in the US comes from non-renewable sources, that still means pollution... You might not smell it, but it is still there...

As to the solar panels, that sounds like a very clever idea, until you start thinking about the fact that the suns radiation, at full throttle, amounts to less than 200 watts pr square meter... The most efficient of solar panels out there does not reach 20% efficiency, that means that even if they did, and you had a pretty honking huge car with an area of 10 sq m (107 sq.ft), you'd still only have enough power to produce 400 watts... that is less than 3/5 of a horsepower... So using solar panels for replenishing your battery is complete nonsence!

Here in Denmark (yes, I live in Denmark), People have 2-300 sq.m of solar panels to power their homes... And it doesn't actually work that way, because most of the panels you'll see here is water heaters which is simply water hoses running over a black surface heating the water... And the electricity of the solar panels do not store electricity. Owners sell their electricity to the grid during the day and then they buy electricity during the night... And it is only working out because solar panels are heavily subsidized by our government to kill off some of those dirty coal fired powerplants...

15% of our energy, however, comes from windmills... Most of them placed out at sea where they are out of the way and out of sight!

I agree that diesel-hybrids are the next step towards the future though...

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TheSailor - 1/21/2008 6:30:43 PMView My AgentSpace

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My god that was poorly written... sorry for that... I'm not entirely awake though... We've been riding the same bloody storm out here for three days and it isn't easy sleeping when you are being thrown around a 90 meter steel box in 15 meter waves! But it has calmed down now, so it looks like I'll get a bit of sleep tonight though... So good night!

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S4cabriofoxone - 1/22/2008 5:00:29 PMView My AgentSpace

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Sun energy is easy to store in the day time. I have solar powered lights in the front of my home and they (usually) work quite well. However, it's very hard to put that on a much larger scale (car). And, as Rupert pointed out, very expensive. You're basically buying another car by doing that.

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TheSailor - 1/22/2008 8:14:58 PMView My AgentSpace

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Those lights are powered by small capacitors... You can't posibly build capacitors large enough to store enough "umph" for an entire house!

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EvoAudi - 1/20/2008 10:57:05 PMView My AgentSpace

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If i ever buy a hybrid it would be a turbodiesel-solarcharged-plugin-hybrid-lean-mean-earth-saving-machine!

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ThierryHenry14 - 1/21/2008 12:44:51 AM

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I just don't think the driver knows how to drive the M3...

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adamsaf723 - 1/21/2008 12:58:59 AM

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I don't believe that for a second. You could stall, turn your car off, turn it back on, and still beat a 530d 0-60. Sure they feel faster because they are very torque-y, but to believe that an M3 would get dusted by a 530d is ignorant. Diesels are built much better and will last longer than I hybrid, and they will be quicker per cubic inch, but they aren't that much significantly faster than a standard engine, let alone a hybrid. Cars like the R8 are exceptions.

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I95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 1/21/2008 2:21:39 PM

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Please be quiet.

Only Idiots think that so long as a vehicle Sticker claims 0-60 in 4 secs, that they {Idiots} will be able to actually achieve those figures.

I consistently beat guys in M3s and S4s with My Ex's 535d M-Sport, especially on Motorways

henbmw - 1/22/2008 1:33:58 PM

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A roll-on is quite different than a 0-60 run. A diesel winning a roll-on with a v8 m3 is somewhat believable, but I too highly doubt a M3 could be beaten to 60 by a 530d with its 7.0 second 0-60 time.

I95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 1/23/2008 5:48:43 AM

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V6 M3s (Prev Gen)

I95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 1/23/2008 5:51:11 AM

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Oh Sugar! What am I doing today ?

I6 M3s (Prev Gen)

Not had a chance to race the new ones yet.

Anthony - 1/21/2008 1:28:28 AM

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Wow. The new M3 really is a let-down then...

...if this were true.

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bobus - 1/21/2008 1:39:44 AM

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Someone at the automobliemag.com must have exggerated or made up the story because it did not provide the detail of the "diesel station wagon". One other thing most people do not realize is that although diesel has a lot of torque than their gasoline counterpart, but when compare the acceleration numbers with the similar size engine the diesel still lags behind. For example compare the performance of the Mercedes E class with gasoline engine and diesel engine, or the M Class with gasoline and diesel. Although the diesel has much more torque but actually slower. However the fuel mileage of the diesel is much better then the gasoline engine. Is it a myth or fact that diesel have better performance number? You'll be the judge.

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Heyhuub - 1/21/2008 4:45:51 AM

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The Audi A5 3.0 TDI is quicker to 60 then the 3.2 FSI.

At that, when you'r launching the M3 at 2000rpm as he said, it doesn't have allot of power because most of that is up in the high range past 6000rpm.

A diesel produces monsters amount of torque at 2000rpm and allot more power, so it's easier to launch. So if you'r not very acustomed to launching an M3 i can see why he lost.

I95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 1/21/2008 2:22:55 PM

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Thank You

enthusiastx11 - 1/21/2008 12:41:13 PM

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hey the LS600 gets 14.9!! saving the world. one 5300 pound car at a time.

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autopro - 1/21/2008 11:09:42 AMView My AgentSpace

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Ratco your an insult to everyone on this site.

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Rupert - 1/21/2008 12:40:51 PMView My AgentSpace

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Lexus is not the fastest growing luxury brand in Britain. I live here.
And do you know how fast the "V12 competitor" is in Britain? 0-60 in...6.6 seconds. Not really V12 competitive. And yet it costs over 80000 pounds.
And it still has higher emissions than the Germans' 3.0 diesels. Their 4 litre + diesels have slightly higher emissions, but are faster and more fuel efficient.

Shall we have a look at Lexus' British sales?
Let's see...2007 total year sales
Lexus - 15,119 - a 2.91% increase over last year.
BMW - 121,575 - a 5.15% increase over last year
Audi - 100,864 - a 17.98% increase over last year
Mercedes - 82,321 - a 1.54% increase over last year
Alfa Romeo - 7,355 - a 40% increase over last year
Land Rover - 46,552 - an 8.78% increase over last year.

So GoObama, you are in fact completely wrong.
And BMW outsold Toyota in Britain last year!

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Rupert - 1/21/2008 5:56:18 PMView My AgentSpace

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You want to argue with my figures? Argue with the SMMT, the society for motor manufacturers and traders.
My figures are dead on right, and don't you dare even suggest that I am lying.

http://www.smmt.co.uk/dataservices/index.cfm?sid=-2&catid=551&maincatid=551

Go to this site, download the file registration cars 2007, unzip it with winzip or winrar, and have a look.

And the advertised 25 mpg sucks, as the A8 4.2 tdi gets 30 mpg, and is faster.
The funny thing is that the UK is Lexus' 3rd largest market, so it's sales are quite pathetic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus#Global_ambitions

Ok, maybe in the whole of Europe Lexus sales are increasing the most - but only by 7%.
http://www.samar.pl/__/__la/en/__ac/sec,4/new/15188/__Toyota-achieves-11th-consecutive-record-year-of-sales-in-Europe.html

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TheSailor - 1/21/2008 6:25:51 PMView My AgentSpace

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GoObama08...

You are forgetting a very important part of the equation here... Lets take some elementary school maths to explain...

John has 5 cents, jack has 5 dollars. Both then gets 10 cents... Now who experienced the biggest relative increase?

You see where i'm going? Lexus' sales in europe are to be honest appaling compared to the competitors, so if you only sell 1/10th the cars of your competitors, selling 72% more (don't know where you've got those numbers but anyways) still leaves you lacking a whole lot! Lets just wait and see when the numbers have leveled out a bit just how close they got! There is no doubt they are moving in europe, but they are not moving anywhere near the german makes... And then it doesn't really matter if they grew by 72% last year (their sales in germany, largest market in europe, actually decreased in 2007 overall, less than 3000 cars between the IS, GS an LS - the c-class alone sold more than 35.000)...

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S4cabriofoxone - 1/22/2008 5:05:57 PMView My AgentSpace

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Alfa Romeo is (BY FAR) the fastest-growing luxo brand in Britain, followed by Audi? Surprising. I know Alfa isn't a high-volume brand there... but Audi? Really? They're the second-biggest, and the fastest growing? Interesting.

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Rupert - 1/22/2008 6:11:09 PMView My AgentSpace

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Yep - we do love our Audis here.
And that's with the A4 being about to be replaced.
Their UK headquaters are being built about a mile from my house - right next to a Mercedes dealership!

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autopro - 1/21/2008 11:11:47 AMView My AgentSpace

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I think Diesel/hybrid will be the way to go.We just need more gas stations with diesel fuel,not available everwhere,in my area at least.

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autopro - 1/21/2008 4:53:47 PMView My AgentSpace

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Just another opinion from some wannabe writer,who's on somebody's payroll.

2ndbimmer - 1/21/2008 11:19:20 AM

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25mpg is nothing to brag about! I am all about the diesel engines. I cant wait to get my 335d.

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TheSailor - 1/21/2008 6:33:00 PMView My AgentSpace

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Well... I can show you a few which will give you the same performance with less horsepower and quite a bit cheaper... How does that sound? Be careful playing too cocky... You might end up with a black eye...

S4cabriofoxone - 1/22/2008 5:07:20 PMView My AgentSpace

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GoObama, what's the point of having that 440hp if it can't get even close to other cars with the same power?

VISO - 1/21/2008 1:06:01 PM

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Give me a V12 6.0 Liter TDI from 0-60 in less than 4.2 seconds with around 25 mpg and the diesel is my best friend forever! Oh yeah, just saw one at the Detriot show!

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autopro - 1/21/2008 4:56:51 PMView My AgentSpace

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Oh ratco you can do that with your fudge packing friend enthusiassh*le.

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Porschinator - 1/21/2008 5:36:00 PM

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I am not sure what the savings would be between a Diesel and hybrid. Diesel engines are not exactly cheap...AT ALL! The Diesel has been around forever and just recently is it considered a savior in these hard times.

Hybrids is a much newer tech as you all know and still has a lot of growing pains to go through to reach full potential. Diesels are already proven with emission issues being the main concern as well as Diesel fuel costs above Premium in numerous areas. So both techs have their ups and downs. I know Diesel hybrids where brought to the table. Issue with that is the Diesel needs to be primed before starting. Not easy to pull off with a hybrid due to constant on/off when idling in city driving.

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huu76 - 1/21/2008 9:09:06 PM

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Greenplease,
Ummm, you forgot a few important things.

1. Diesels use more oil. The RS8 uses 50% more barrels of oil (yes, 42 gallon BARRELS) than an LS600hL, which outweighs it by 1500lbs. The IS-F outperforms and is gas, yet it consumes 25% less oil. Same ratios between the Prius and Jetta TDI.
2. Cleaner is still no where near "CLEANEST", which hybrids are.
3. The new generation of diesels will be (judging from the UK pricing) just as expensive as current hybrids, except hybrid technology prices are dropping with each generation.
4. Diesels are still loud, no matter how much you tell yourself they're not.
5. Where diesel isn't subsidized (i.e. everywhere but Europe), you pay 10%+ more for diesel and that's when diesel only represents about 4% of the market (N.A.).
http://www.vw.ca/vwca/index/0,2280,40,00.html
6. Hybrid and diesel mileage is roughly the same on average (unless you commute from LA to NY everyday).
7. Hybrid tech will work with hydrogen cars, no added weight or requirement for a secondary fuel source (unlike the BMW 7 Hydrgen that carries around 2 fuel tanks).
8. Diesels have to hide their emissions through tricks and gadgets. Hybrids just simply don't create them to begin with.
9. Diesels are used primarily as a cashcow for old school car companies. The base VW Jetta TDI in Canada went from $21,000 to $26,500 and that's not even the Bluemotion models (add another $2000+).
10. BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche have all been forced to rush half-assed hybrids to market :)

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TheSailor - 1/22/2008 4:55:10 AMView My AgentSpace

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Huuey... Still trying to pass the same old lies hoping that no one will point them out?!

Hybrids are far more expensive than comparable diesels in Europe (read 535d vs GS450h and Prius vs. [insert random diesel hatchback]) If you bring up that popmech article where they so grocely misquoted the prices just to prove a point, I'll make you look even more stupid than you already do (and no that is not a threat but a fact)

As to diesel consuming more oil, you are still living in one huge misconception as it is different parts of oil you use... And what about the fact that you can substitute fossil diesel with biodiesel without any modifications what-so-ever experiencing a further increase in mileage? The only substitute for gasoline is ethanol which need an entirely new engine to do it's thing best. If you stuff it into a regular gasoline (flexifuel engine), it will give a lower efficiency than on regular gasoline, which kind of defeats some of the purpose.

As to hybrids addapting to hydrogen engines, hydrogen engines are just as much a gimmick as a gasoline hybrid. It is a way of being thought of as greener without actually being it... Just like the LS600h... If a hybrid system was to be attached to a diesel engine instead, you'd actually get an unrivaled fuel economy, unlike with a gasoline hybrid. And if someone did develop a hydrogen hybrid, it might not have to have a secondary fuel source, but considering that the hybrid system in a GS ads something like 200 kg to the weight, I'd make due with a 60kg fuel tank instead please...

As to diesels using gadgets an gimmicks to achieve better emmisions... That is just so lame, pathetic, childish, STUPID, ignorant etc... So because they've invented a system which brings every single form of polution from a diesel engine down below the limit where hybrids can compete, they are cheating?!? WTF?!? Anyways, hybrids have to use VERY dirty batteries, special cooling systems, CVTs, electric pumps, special combustion cycles etc. to achieve the mileage they do... And they only do so if you drive in stop and go traffic alot which a whole lot of people don't do that often (yes yes... You live in the big city and think every single person on earth spend half their life in grid locks... Think again)... Diesels will provide you with superior mileage ALL the time, not just in dense extra urban areas!

Hybrids are used ONLY as money making machines for Toyota... And now also from the germans who are copying (in lack of a better word) Toyotas idea because they can see that people like yourself will suck up and believe anything the media throws at you...

Porschinator - 1/22/2008 3:09:26 PM

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Diesels are cheaper in Europe because the emissions requirements are less restrictive thus not as expensive to produce. Also Diesels are very popular in Europe so Auto Makes will keep costs lower to sell more vehicles.

The US will be much different. Diesel will cost more than in Europe due to added emissions needs to meet US EPA requirements. This is one reason hybrids exist and is popular in the States. I am hoping that after the initial resurgance of Diesels in 2009-2010 the cost will decrease as manufacturing cost level off when developement costs are recouped.

S4cabriofoxone - 1/22/2008 5:10:06 PMView My AgentSpace

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"Diesels use more oil. The RS8 uses 50% more barrels of oil (yes, 42 gallon BARRELS) than an LS600hL, which outweighs it by 1500lbs. The IS-F outperforms and is gas, yet it consumes 25% less oil."

Why the hell are you comparing the R8 V12 TDI (NOT THE RS8!!! LEARN TO READ PRESS RELEASES!!!) to the LS600hL? Is that supposed to be funny? The R8 is a SUPERCAR first and foremost, a diesel green machine second. And you're a fool to think that the IS-F outperforms the V12 TDI. It can't touch the standard R8, let alone that one.

AuricTech - 1/24/2008 8:53:05 PM

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<i>1. Diesels use more oil. The RS8 uses 50% more barrels of oil (yes, 42 gallon BARRELS) than an LS600hL, which outweighs it by 1500lbs. The IS-F outperforms and is gas, yet it consumes 25% less oil. Same ratios between the Prius and Jetta TDI.</i>

Ah. I think I see your error.

Let us look at that portion of a barrel of oil that can easily be used as fuel (i.e., the gasoline and diesel fractions). If diesel fuel requires 50% more crude oil to produce, that means that one can get 60 gallons of gasoline and 40 gallons of diesel fuel for every 100 gallons of useful fuel distillates in the crude oil feedstock. This is, I suspect, the basis of your claim that diesel fuel production requires more crude oil than gasoline production.

That being said, which is more efficient? Using that 40 gallons of diesel fuel without further processing, or expending further energy on techniques such as fluid-bed cat cracking to increase the available gasoline by breaking down the heavier diesel fraction?

As I see it, the demand for diesel fuel in the US, compared to the demand for gasoline, is well under the ratio of diesel fuel to gasoline in the average barrel of crude oil (again, before such techniques as fluid-bed cat cracking are used). If my reasoning is correct, I fail to see how an increase in Diesel-powered vehicles will result in increased fuel consumption.

huu76 - 1/21/2008 9:18:10 PM

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One error, the RS8 is the gas version. The R8 V12 TDI which has the same 0-60 as the RS8 but with apparently 23mpg. (Either way, compared to hybrids, their still pretty poor) The Touaerag V10 TDI gets 15/20mpg, so 23 sounds reasonable, however, the V10 TDI uses even more oil than the RS8 gas. It's also not 50 state legal.

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I95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 1/21/2008 9:49:40 PM

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WTF is an RS8 ?

I only know of A8, S8 and R8

The rest of your post is so illogical that i cannot be bothered to correct it.

S4cabriofoxone - 1/22/2008 5:11:21 PMView My AgentSpace

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"The R8 V12 TDI which has the same 0-60 as the RS8 but with apparently 23mpg."

I think you're talking about the NORMAL R8 4.2 petrol, but FYI, the R8 V12 TDI is a half-second quicker than the gas version.

And yes, the rest of your post is so stupid that there's no reason to address it.

VISO - 1/21/2008 10:27:25 PM

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Hey huumisguided, there is no RS8! Please get it right. All the non-Lexus people get deboosted because the Lexus-types keeping crying over their spilled milk. Boohoo! In defence of Rupert, Lexus sales in Europe are dismal compared to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz. Hey Obamamybama, don't deny actual figures. This is just for you:

Per Automotive News Europe January 7th 2008 edition (for data available through 11/07 by JATO Dynamics) sales are as follows:

Audi: 612,959 units
BMW: 645,457 units
MB: 680,554 units
Lexus: 36,840 units (OOPS!)
Jaguar: 30,996 units

You are right Obama - Lexus is tearing it up in Europe alright!

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farabira1 - 1/22/2008 11:20:21 AM

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I will not get diesel specially in a sports car because, it sounds disgusting when you press on the gas.

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VISO - 1/22/2008 1:21:09 PM

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Obviously you haven't heard the R10 on a racetrack. How do you know how a diesel sports car sounds like when there isn't a production sports car available on the market anywhere. Audi just showed the concept at Detriot (R8 V12 TDI 6.0) and no one knows how it sounds like yet. Stop making things up!

S4cabriofoxone - 1/22/2008 5:13:16 PMView My AgentSpace

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The R10 racecar is actually significantly quieter and more refined than its gas-powered competitors.

And do you really think Audi would be stupid enough to produce a twelve-cylinder supercar (R8 V12 TDI) that sounds coarse???

huu76 - 1/22/2008 6:40:23 PM

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Anyone want to try proving me wrong rather than dodge my facts? Diesels burn more oil but have no mileage benefits over a hybrid, it's that simple. Just pick a car and start crying. (45%city / 55%highway)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008selemakef.jsp?year=2008
Face it, the Germans have hosed Europe for the last few decades.

Yes, R8, the two seater, is what I'm getting at (I hate these alphabet soup LMNOP-5.1 named cars). My comparison was to show how pathetic the V8 gas or V12 TDI is compared to a full size hybrid sedan that outweighs them by 1500lbs (LS600hL). The IS-F outperforms the RS8 (speed and mileage) and comes damn close in mileage aginst the V12 (speed is debatable).

Biodiesel may be cleaner (CLEANER), but check out some other facts that you either don't know or would rather ignore. It has benefits, but just as many drawbacks.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Biodiesel-Fuel---Pros-and-Cons&id=924808
LOWER ENERGY CONTENT
ENGINE OPERATION PROBLEMS
STORAGE and HANDLING
BIODIESEL EFFECT ON DIESEL OIL (when concentrations exceed 5%)
Other terms not mentioned are "deforestation" for farmland.
Rising food costs due to fuel competing with animal stock for grain.

The EPA tests show that a GMC Sierra running on E85 has 30% poorer mileage than a conventional one.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=24700
I am impressed by how much oil consumption dropped though (67% drop). However, factor in the added usage to gain the same mileage, and it climbs to about 50% which you can obtain through hybrids but with lower emissions.

As for noise, go stand beside an E320 Bluetec or a Jetta TDI and tell me how quiet they are.

VW/Audi created the Touerag TDI and Q7 TDI, so what does that say about them worrying about noisy cars?

Anyway, I'm waiting to see what straws your combined intellect will grasp at this time.

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TheSailor - 1/22/2008 8:21:21 PMView My AgentSpace

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"Anyone want to try proving me wrong rather than dodge my facts? Diesels burn more oil but have no mileage benefits over a hybrid, it's that simple. Just pick a car and start crying."

OHHH PLEASE!!! I'VE Proven that BMW can do it with the 3-series vs the Camry, the 5-series vs. the GS and the X3 (or 5) vs the RX... And in every single case, the BMW is cheaper, gets better mileage AND has better performance, so you know what... Go cry a river or start proving your statemens...

And the Prius can't compete at all with it's european diesel counterparts! The premium is just unpayable and unjustifiable... Subsidized diesel or not.

As to E85, that is a crappy fuel, if you want to burn Ethanol just for the sake of doing it, you need a proper full-ethanol engine running on pure ethanol... Just look into it. And you need a better fuel source than corn!

Anyway, I'm waiting to see what futile attempts to ignore facts you'll try next... Your move!

S4cabriofoxone - 1/23/2008 1:10:50 AMView My AgentSpace

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"The IS-F outperforms the RS8 (speed and mileage) and comes damn close in mileage aginst the V12 (speed is debatable)."

R8 R8 R8 R8 R8 R8 R8 R8 R8 IT'S THE FUCKING AUDI R8!!!

Anyway.

NO, the IS-F does NOT outperform the R8. #1, what makes you think it's faster? It cannot touch the R8 in a straight line OR in the twisties. Think about it before blabbering: R8 = less weight than IS-F; R8 also = more power than IS-F.

#2, what makes you think the IS-F gets good mileage? Numbers please. Even if that is true, the R8 V12 TDI gets much better mileage AND it's faster still.

The rest of your post is not worth my time...

GreenPlease - 1/22/2008 10:06:14 PM

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@Anyone who thinks (lubrication) oil consumption is a problem:
-Said oil can be/frequently is captured, reprocessed, and recycled.

@Whoever said modern diesels have lower NOX emissions
-Wrong. This is the last category where diesels suffer in terms of emissions. New combustion regimes (modified HCCI with a specialized piston geometry) should deal with this in the next 5-10 years without exhaust after treatment. This tech will also improve the fuel economy of diesel engines by ~20%.

@Hu
-You certainly cherry picked your match between an LS600 and an A8 4.2TDI and then through the IS-F in there for no apparent reason (should be compared to a BMW 335D). The fuel economy/performance match between the LS600 and A8 4.2TDI is won on the drive cycle. The LS wins in the city, the A8 on the highway.

Compare Audi, BMW, Merc, Honda, and even Lexus gasoline and diesel engines of similar displacement. Diesel is competitive in terms of performance (within 5% acceleration) and always wins in terms of fuel economy.

Diesel may be more expensive per gallon, but is still cheaper on a per btu basis, while the diesel combustion regime inherently makes better use of each btu so.... what is a more economical engine?

I'm not trying to bash hybrids. Not one bit. The logical evolution of the automobile is diesel series hybrid. A company such as GM could produce a turbo-charged ~1.6L diesel engine that could be used as the genset in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF ITS VEHICLES and then use lightly modified electric drive trains to satisfy performance needs for a given chassis (compacts would require fewer electric motors and a smaller battery, pickups would be on the other end of the spectrum).

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TheSailor - 1/23/2008 3:45:23 AMView My AgentSpace

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"GreenPlease"... Look into NOX reducing technologies like "AdBlue" and SCR...

kurtismac - 1/26/2008 11:20:39 PM

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and diesel is not cheaper in the uk than gas....

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