Here's the feedback we recieved from our readers...
Dear 001,
Your column on dead man walking is so on target its scary. A friend of mine recently bought the new Acura TL with the Navigation DVD 5.1 Audio and I have to say INCREDIBLE. Compared to my BMW and Mercedes its about 10 years in the future. The sound is incredible, the navigation is incredible, the system is touchscreen, comes with Bluetooth, XM satellite and voice commands. Its got so many more features than my current BMW nav and its ALL for one price, not multiple add on’s like the Germans. I must also say, they have done an excellent job on quality and finish.
My lease is soon to come up on my current BMW and it has me asking myself, “how do I get a new BMW with the technology of an Acura”. I can’t believe I just said that.
Keep up the great work,
Tony
I 100% agree with your article on MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi. I currently own a 2002 Mercedes-Benz S430. My lease is up in about 10 months.
The navigation system in my MB is terrible. In fact my navigation system broke down about four times within a year. So, starting three month's ago, I began looking into new car. I was always a German car fan. So I began looking into a Porsche 911 turbo, talk about a car from the 60's, It's time to retire the 911.
Pulls the technology is terrible (old school) and the price $$$$$$ was crazy. My second search took me to BMW (645ci) . Talk about very little LUXURY, the car had a cold feeling to it.
Next on my journey was Lexus, all of the German cars were getting to me. I fell in love with the 2004 LS and SC. From the paint job to the suade leather. The car was nothing but wood, suade leather or super soft leather seats. In addition, Bluetooth technology, DVD navigation system all for about 1/3 the price. Plus great reviews everywhere.
Good bye MB, BMW, and Porsche......
Keep up the great work.............
You are right on the money regarding the "head in the sand" attitude of MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche, and VW. As in any business, perception becomes reality for customers. I've always marveled that these manufacturers don't spend more money putting better quality materials and amenities in front of the driver. Better steering wheels, higher quality controls, better nav. systems, etc. I think that German arrogance is the reason why these guys just don't get it. These manufacturers all suffer from the "not invented here" syndrome....if it’s not German, it is no good.
It can not be disputed that the Japanese are much more talented in designing electronic systems and sub systems that are user friendly, and more importantly, function as designed. Compare any German navigation system to a Japanese Denso touch screen unit, and it becomes clear that the Denso unit is far superior. Ford realized this when they put Denso navigation systems into Jaguars.
In fact, when my brother's BMW 530i lease was up a few months ago, he switched from BMW to a Jaguar S type R, because of its superior navigation system. If Ford replaces the antique BMW navigation system that is currently in the Land Rover for 2005, my BMW X5 will be replaced with a Land Rover.
The bottom line is, in a global economy, do what you do well (German engines, German transmissions, etc), and source from others what you don't do well (Japanese Electronics). Thanks to the internet, consumers are now better educated with regard to vehicles than at any time in the past. These manufacturers better wake up and realize that as consumers seeking premium products, many of us know more about their products than the people selling them. Heading down market with cars such as the C class, and BMW's 1 series are not the way to increase brand equity and long term market share....quality, innovation, and value are the elements necessary to accomplish this goal.
S.C.
Oh, hell yea, Lexus is coming out with hybrid engines that give up to 60MPG!!!!!
and the Europeans got NOTHING to compete...
oh wow CDI, but its not quite like a Japanese hybrid... and a M5 beating GS that has a hybrid engine....
and Mercedes screwing up their warranty....
the Germans really think they are smart, i drive a 03 S500....and i still keep my 1993 Lexus Ls400 and for God sake, the Japanese are reliable cars....and on top of that the quality, features and the feel are far more better...I have to completely agree with you..the Japanese are so much better then a Euro.... i am also driving a 01 ML320...It is @ the dealership regularly....i am thinking of trading it for a RX330 just for the reliability (the quality, and features that it has are far more then a standard ML)....or maybe wait for the RX400h....that car will really kick the German’s ass...and make them think, "Why didn’t we think of a hybird SUV?".....or even a fuel efficient sedan?
For example....The new TL is far better then the Bmw 3 and Mercedes Benz C class models....it adds so many features, power, the fun, and most importantly reliability all in one great package....did i mention the price? oh and wait till the next gen GS comes out....
What are the Euros thinking....have they gone mad?
All i have to say is, Euro's companies are sleeping and are in another world, especially if they think they can get people to buy there products while not giving a good debate over why consumers should buy their cars over the japs who are giving more features, power and a lot more reliability in their cars for a far more reasonable cost...While the Euro's screw them self over, the Japs are taking the market by storm...
Look at Lexus' sales for the past few years and customer satisfaction ratings...and compare it to the Euro's....That should make my point clear...
Kunal B.
Dear Spies,
I have read your article about "MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi- Dead men walking?" You are totally right!! I have been driving German made cars for 12 years and have decided to get my next one a Japanese car (if they improve the look of the cars)..It is clear that Asian car producers invest much more on improving their cars… Their cars come with so many standard features and nice options. My Cayenne doesn't even have a spare wheel!! I have to get my car pulled to the service every time I have a flat-tire (I have 20 inches).
Emir
To say that a potential luxury car buyer would choose a Lexus over a German make because it doesn't have a wood steering wheel, is the most bizarre and foolish statement you have ever made. Did you ever stop to think that some people don't want wood on the steering wheel? It gets very slippery. But that is besides the point. Luxury car buyers go to Lexus and Infiniti, mainly because of reliability, which you did point to, but wood on the steering wheel, because it makes you feel rich? Come on, that is the biggest load of B.S. from you guys in a while...
Cheers,
Zach
I agree w/your article about the German marks being snobs to the Japanese marks and their obvious step up to show the world how it -- design, performance and value -- is done.
I'm a 3-time Audi owner and, when I saw your pix of the M45 concept from the NY auto show, I will be selling my A6 before the lease is up.
Crazy, but you just can't ignore the cool designs coming out of EVERY automaker.
Everyone can make a quality car that can perform, but NO ONE is doing it better than Infiniti and Lexus for the money!
John M
In response to your "Dead Men Walking" article my opinion differs on the notion that the wood steering wheel is what entices buyers to look elsewhere, although I can only speak for myself. I am writing my two cents worth because I fear that I will have a wood steering wheel in my next car.
I have a car habit; I like to buy cars about every 18-24 months. I have tended to buy German cars . . . until recently. I have noticed a phenomina in the auto industry that I have notice in other industries; I call it marketing arrogance. Let me illustrate:
In 1994, the year that I came into my car habit, I bought an Audi 90. AT that time, Audi was very eager to make quality cars at a reasonable price.
Heck, Audi had a reputation for "unintended acceleration" to overcome. I saw a great car at a resonable price so I bought it. Since then, I have owned a 2001 S4 and a 2002 A6 from Audi (with a Mercedes E430 and a BMW here and there). Each time that I went back, I noticed a marked change in attitude noticed through pricing an dealership experience. The arrogance appears in the overall attitude that I should be "honored" to buy that car.
This attitude is not unique to Audi, a maker of quality cars. BMW has it as I notice their pricing on the new 5 series. Mercedes has it; as noticed in the forthcomming lack of "free" maintenance.
While I greatly enjoyed the driving characteristics of these cars, I noticed the American brands becoming more hungry and releasing better products.
Now, in my buying opinion, they are here. Cases in point are the new Cadillac’s (a GenX looking at a Cadillac?), the new Mustang (even with the rear live axle), and the new Chrysler Crossfire (a German with American pricing),and the new Chrysler 300C. The competition is on!
Oh yeah, the American brands also went through their era of marketing arrogance as we remember the gas crises of the 1970's. The Japanese recognized the need for fuel efficiency an capitalized. Thirty years later, humility arrives.
Here's what I propose:
1. Let me option the car the way I want it. I don't need everything in a "premium package" I don't need a compass in my rearview mirror.
Personally, I don't need memory seats. If I don't want it don't make me pay for it just to get leather seats! I understand the reasoning to group features together for simplicity of manufacturing. But don't do it to pack in profit margin.
2. If I want to order just a navigation system without all the other options I don't want, let me do so.
3. If a car maker wants to charge more for a car, make a better performing car. Yesterday's success does not make up for today's driving misery.
Its not the fact that a wood steering wheel that makes the car. It is the attitude and thought process that brought the wooden steering wheel to the car that matters.
Sincerely,
Jim J.
I agree with your overall assessment that the Japanese are way ahead of the Europeans in providing the latest "Gizmos" in their vehicles. Where my opinion differs from yours is you seem to attribute it to their being asleep and not being in touch with the customers' wants.
Wooden steering wheels (the vinyl top of the 21st century) aside, where they fall behind, Mercedes in particular, is in the area of electronics/computerization. They can't seem to get all these different components to work together seamlessly. Case in point, my 2003 nav-replacement E500.
What really describes where MB is today with regard to electronics is an article you included in your newsletter a while ago. It was the CEO of Daimler-Chrysler addressing their electronics problems and basically outlining the company's philosophy that they would not seek to be first with the latest technologies.
First! Give me a break. How about least just staying mid-pack. In my E500, for example, I cannot tune my radio presets from my steering wheel even though I had that feature on my previous 2002 CLK55. That seemingly simple feature is also available on current C, CLK, S and other models. MB has been silent on this feature even though many owners have been asking for this. (see MBWorld.org). Many other brands have this feature also.
They finally did make the Satellite radio available if you want to pay up to $1,000 to have it installed including an ugly black antenna drilled into the center of your trunk lid. Amazing how other brands like, I think, Acura includes it for $400 and other brands have it as standard.
BY the way, you can get a wood wheel on an E if you want to shell out $700 or $800 for one.
Dan R
Dan, The wood steering wheel has only become an option on lower end MB’s in the last 24 months. Lexus has had it for at least 5 years.
001
In response to your piece about the lag time between Japanese and German technology I say this: Cars are generally made for the environment in which they are produced; German cars for the autobahn, and Japanese cars (that are exported) for the relatively select few who can afford a car at all in Japan. Thus, Japanese cars aim to be classy, luxurious, quiet (read pretentious and soulless), while the German cars are designed to be luxurious, with one defining caveat - they must be luxurious at 125 miles an hour all day long. The bottom line is Japanese efforts are focused on features you can appreciate at an autoshow, or while the car is not even moving. German technology is more accurately described as German engineering, technology you appreciate at speed. Does anyone recall the concept car that MB put out a year or two ago that showcased a variable camber front end, giving it the ability to corner in a semi-motorcycle like fashion. The Germans are leading the pack in bodyroll limiting technology - Audi with its opposite corner shock absorber loading system, MB with ABC (my least favorite) and BMW with active roll stabilization which works wonders in the corners. And no Japanese car can begin to approach the braking benchmark set by Porsche, MB and lastly BMW, with ceramic composite brakes in production (for Porsche and perhaps soon MB). And lets not forget my favorite feature on a modern car - electronic stability control, which I believe was pioneered by Porsche (PSM) and is now standard issue on a slew of cars. No need to worry my friends, the Japs are about flash. But flash does sell to a great number of Americans.
Most people I know who own M5s and 911 turbos talk more aggressively than they drive. So yes, Japanese cars may potentially offer more talking points, but for people who really enjoy driving their cars, the Japanese luxury sedans have never been, and will likely never be, on the top of the list.
Sincerely, DrpEsq
DRP- We assure you within five years you will be eating these words
001
I don’t think it’s quite as bad as you make it out to be. Yes the Acura feature is pretty interesting, but you can’t tell me that people are going to base the decision of what car they are going to drive based on their steering wheel. Personally, I have wood steering wheels. I prefer a leather wrapped steering wheel any day. That said, what the hell is Mercedes doing putting a cassette player as standard equipment in my CLK500? Are they crazy? And I had to pay $400 for a CD player, when my secretary’s Mazda Protégé has one standard. What is that all about? In this regards, Mercedes will lose out not only to Lexus and Infiniti, but to Mitsubishi and Chevy.
Sixto
Here's my take as a Lexus owner (an LS and a GS400). You're dead-on in your assessment of the European makers--but mostly not for the reason you state.
Stuff like a wood steering wheel is nice, and a good nav. system helps, but these are a small part of a much bigger picture. In three words, it comes down to quality, quality, quality.
Quality in the sense of reliability: I put gas in the Lexus, do the maintenance, and it just goes, plain and simple. I work with people that drive 745i's, E55's, CLK's, new 5 series, etc. They can kill an entire lunch conversation talking about all the service issues and glitches with their cars. One guy with an '02 745i has had the engine replaced, several controllers, an audio speaker and a dozen other minor items. At one point, it just wouldn't start and had to be towed out of his garage. No real explanation, other than the computer was in a bad mood. Look no further than the JD Power long-term reliability rankings of manufacturers and you see the real issue. Luxury is about not having your time wasted.
This brings up why the latest gadget theory doesn't hold water. The new 7 is overloaded with gadgets and options. Unfortunately, many of them are half-baked (Active Steering, voice recognition) or raw (I-Drive, need I say it). Mercedes also has admitted to pushing too hard with new and untested electronic systems for the sake of claiming technology leadership (of course, they blame the supplier, even though they signed off on the system). Lexus technology simply works and is useful (best nav. & audio on the market).
Quality in the sense of luxury: Yes, a wood wheel helps. But it's so much
more: Paint quality, body panel tolerances, leather quality, headliner quality, interior plastics quality, carpet quality, switchgear quality.
Add the ergonomic superiority of Lexus (don't lump Infinity in here--they still don't fully get ergonomics and first-class interior materials) and there's no comparison. The interior of a 7, Q45 or an S-class doesn't hold a candle to an LS.
Quality in the sense of superior engineering: This is where a million little details seal the deal. Lexus products (again, I leave Infiniti out, as I've test driven them and there's no comparison) convey a sense wholeness--every last detail being carefully thought out and working together to add up to more than the sum of the parts. This shows itself in extremely low NVH, the way the doors close, the ride quality--everything.
So what's left?
The last legitimate reason left to buy German is the driving experience and exterior styling (okay, at least for Mercedes & Audi/VW). If Lexus turns their attention to these areas (as they've recently promised) with the same vigor as they have quality, then what remains for the Germans? Pretty much their badges.
There are always those whose buying decisions will be based on their need for a status symbol--a little $2 flying propeller or three-pointed star--because they are basically insecure people. That's okay--the joke will be on them.
Best regards,
DM
As a long term Lexus supporter and owner, I relish the controversy created by the complacency of the German car manufacturers. I've always known that my Lexus was more reliable than its German brethren. I've also always known that my factory stereo (very important to me) is providing me with aural pleasures well beyond my fellow commuters.
However, since we are being totally honest here, I have always felt a little like a dope. Bimmers and Mercs always look so cool and their drivers always seem so together and confident. I feel like a civil engineer surrounded by Hollywood talent agents - hanging on to reliability as the holy grail . Now, things are changing.
Lexus/Infiniti has raised the stakes in performance. And, looking to the (near) future, my new Lexus will look a lot cooler than any of its German contemporaries. The underdog will be the top dog. Through dogged brand loyalty and some stubborn pride, I will have arrived. I can't wait!
BTW - I hate the wood steering wheel.....
DC
Portland, OR
I was all set to buy a 330ci when I just took a look a the price and bought a G35 coupe instead. More horsepower, more space, more service at the dealerships, and about fifteen grand saved. Need I say more?
Jay
I can't really agree on your gloomy prediciton of German car manufacturers in the U.S. market just because they don't install wooden steering wheels or some hot gadgets. BMW, for example, prefers not to attract Lexus buyers who value glossy half-wooden steering wheels and chooses to concentrate on more sporting features, such as Active Steering. By the way, traffic-info based navigation systems that avoid jams, have been around for years in all of these cars in Germany and it probably isn't their fault for not having introduced this yet in their U.S. cars.
Richard Z.
Hamburg / Germany
I work at a Honda/Volkswagen dealer, and i am a diehard volkswagen fan.
I have owned 5, and now have a GLX Vr6. the level of technology in
the everyday use of this car, and any high-line VW is great. rain sensing wipers, the mirror that tilts down when you are in reverse, the rear sunshade, the wood trim...that looks decent..... when you compare that to the accord, the voice activated navigation is really the only innovation, besides VTEC. but I like the long throw high torque feeling of the VR6. i don’t like to rev, all the time.. Its fun, but it gets old quick.. MB BMW and even audi, thought the mmi system is vastly better than MB and BMW...don’t even compare to the likes of lexus and acura, in terms of ease of use of their systems.. I cant figure it out, in the Touareg, the nav is CD BASED.... and the screen is not touch sensitive.. its a fantastic car, but the nav system is not worth a dime. i guess there is a reason that microchips come from Japan..
and so to does the latest in automotive technology. or does it, Honda/Acura doesn't use anything like HBA or servotronic steering...besides VTEC, they really do little to compliment the driver under the hood.. Where is the ESP/DSC in the Asian world? VSC from Toyota is highly under stated. AND WHAT ABOUT HYBRIDS? BMW is barking up the wrong tree with hydrogen based fuel cells.. Really all of them should show their might and power by backing diesel.
S
I agree with your assessment. I am from Finland and a very loyal European car buyer (most recent purchase Volvo V70R for the family) but am skeptical of their future.
You pointed out some great examples of how most European companies have missed the boat on various features and technologies. I also think that performance in the future will equal - acceleration, handling, AND fuel economy. Hybrids are going to eat everyone's lunch and only Toyota and Honda are focused on this
Mika
The thrust of your article is that the German luxury-car manufacturers (GLCM) are in trouble because the level of technology used in their cars does not match the technology seen in other luxury vehicles such as those from Lexus and Infiniti. I disagree with that statement. The GLCM produced cars with full-length glass roofs (MB), heads-up displays (BMW), and double-clutch transmissions and all aluminum bodies (Audi) to name just a few technological innovations employed in mass-produced cars.
I would modify your statement to the extent that GLCM are in trouble because they no longer can produce cars as reliable as their competitors at Lexus and Infiniti to name just two. Reliability, although perhaps not as important as performance or comfort, nevertheless is a parameter people use to determine their car purchases. When purchasing a luxury-sport sedan that is at the top of its class, people are willing to tolerate relatively poor reliability because they still are purchasing the best (performance with luxury with comfort) cars available. However when other car companies begin to produce roughly equivalent luxury-sport sedans that also are more reliable, I think there is no question that people who once appreciated GLCM because they were the best will switch their allegiances because now there is a new best, and owning the best (that people can afford) is the primary motivation for the purchase of luxury-sport cars.
Eugene
I agree with you but i am not happy about it. I think the German companies could do a much better job if they look to see what the Japanese are doing to make us buy their cars over the Germans. Lexus has been making so much new technology that the customers can see. One great example is their new fingerprint system that opens the door without a key. The German companies would rule the luxury market if they would just take a look at the Japanese.
Ben
I could not agree less with your assessment that German car companies are "dead men walking" compared with some of their Japanese competitors. While some Japanese makes may win the gadget war with gadget's that many do not consider crucial in a new vehicle, they do not hold a candle to the Germans relative styling, cache, overall tactical feel, or resale to name a few. The proof is in the pudding...while German car companies may try to emulate certain Japanese vehicle characteristics or benefits (like high SSI); the Japanese continue to shamelessly copy the Germans. Lexus and Infiniti were founded on that very premise. Japanese brands may be aspirational brands relative to other Japanese brands, Korean brands, or American brands, but I do not think that many Porsche, Benz, or BMW owners covet their neighbor's respective Japanese vehicles. Come to think of it, check Hemmings for some prices on a classic Corvette versus a classic Datsun Z! Show me one parent in the pre-school pick up line driving a G35 Sedan that does not gaze longingly at the parent in a 5 series BMW and I will agree with your hypotheses. I can however, think of several Sonata owners who get sprung at the thought of owning an Altima. To put the final nail in this coffin, I live in Orange County, California (Southern California), ground zero for auto elitism. I see more Asian kids driving BMW's on a daily basis than Infiniti’s and Lexus' combined. We all know the key to the future of a brand is locking them in early. Isn't that right, Buick, Cadillac and Oldsmobile?
Thanks for listening!
Kurt S
In regards to your article on if the German auto makers are dead.
Up until recently, all of the German cars were designed mainly for the European market first, then for the U.S market.
American buyers and European buyers don’t have the same perception of what luxury is.
Lexus pretty much only sells in the U.S, and greatly in part thanks to their S.U.V.
Don’t get me wrong, they make very good cars, but if it wasn’t for their excellent service and very good reliability, they would sell less cars in Europe.
People in Europe buy German cars because they give you more feel and response than most Japanese cars.
Infiniti has really turned around its image (thank you Renault) and offer some incredible cars, and a sporty image; so does Acura.
Lexus is lacking in this department.
So what if the car does not offer a wood steering wheel?
It is probably better in case of a serious accident, but to please the American people, we have to offer it. Even Audi is offering for 2005 a wooden steering wheel for its A8 and A8L.
Japanese cars are very advanced, but to say that German cars are behind in that department?
VW/ Audi has had a real time traffic system for years for the European market, and I am pretty sure it would be similar with the other German brands.
VW/ Audi has offered in Europe a Navigation with an actual screen since 1996 across the whole line (Except the TT), but true, Audi of America has decided not to offer it.
Should I remind you that the Audi A8 is still one of the only cars in the world to be made entirely out of Aluminum?
If this is not advanced, than what is it?
And that since the old body style was introduced way back in 1994!
I cannot tell you how many people have sat in the A8L and tell me how incredible this car is and how well finished it is. Never once I have heard people say that the car looks “Cheap” because it does not have a wood steering wheel.
It is a nice touch, yes, but when you live in hot weather areas, this is the last thing that you want!
Audi may not offer a wood steering wheel, or as an option, but it does offer heated steering wheel for the nice winters (o.k so it does not get that cold in Texas, but again Audi’s biggest market is the North East)
You write:” And BMW and Audi have yet to figure out such a simple option gives the customer the impression that the car is much more expensive than it is...”
Have you seen the interior colors available for the A8?
The Black/ Amaretto is absolutely gorgeous, and the available Alcantara headliner makes it even richer; if this does not make it “more expensive” than it is, I don’t know what is.
People in Europe do not buy a car because of how advance its navigation system is; because it is sporty, feels solid, and is fun to drive.
This is what German cars are all about: well built, solid, and fun to drive.
Toyota/ Lexus and Nissan/ Infinity make some great cars, but some of their plastics is left to be desired, and that even in the LS 430.
Audi gives attention to details even to the trunk of the car.
The hooks for the cargo net (which is extra $ on some expensive Japanese cars) and not welded to the frame of the car and come out through a piece of carpet.
No, they are aluminum pieces with springs that retract.
So yes, the “stupid” wood steering wheel may make the car look “more expensive” than is already is, but if you look closely at some of these cars, well, they tend to look cheaper than they should be.
Yes I am European, and Yes I do work for an Audi dealership…
J
Keep up the good work on the spies stories.
Sincerely,
Alex Ramon
Audi Brand Specialist
Boardwalk Audi