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Tags: BMW M3, Mercedes C63, Audi RS4

Tag Links: BMW M3, Mercedes C63, Audi RS4

451HP C63 STILL can't beat the 414HP BMW M3? RS4 falls to 3rd place?
It has to be frustrating to build a car (Mercedes C63) with 451HP and 443 FT. LBS. of torque, yet when the review results are published, you end up in second place to the 414hp, 295 FT. LBS. of torque BMW M3.

I would guess as an engineer, you must sit there and wonder what on earth you need to do to finally topple this villain.

This month’s Car and Driver's comparo of the C63, RS4 and M3 says this:

"The M3 wins because it is the best-the most sporting and emotionally appealing car in this group. It's not the fastest, but its relatively light weight and deft handling, and the relationship it fosters with the driver, are the most compelling. And by the way, it's the least expensive of the group.

The M3 beat the others score, 212 to 205 for the C63 and 201 for the RS4.

OH Magoo, BMW has done it again!

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451HP C63 STILL can't beat the 414HP BMW M3? RS4 falls to 3rd place?



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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 4:22:39 PMView My AgentSpace
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Why are you re-posting this?

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 4:32:46 PMView My AgentSpace
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BTW, the RS4 fell to third place, obviously. It was benchmarked. Just like how Audi benchmarked the C4S and M3 when building the B7 RS4--BMW did the same in making the E90/E92 M3. The next RS4 will leapfrog it, etc.


I95SPEEDINGTICKETSI95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 11/11/2007 4:26:54 PM
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3,9 sec 0-60 is faster than the 997 Turbo

Somehow i doubt these times.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 4:31:44 PMView My AgentSpace
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No, it isn't. The Turbo achieves a 3.5 sec time... on an "average" day. Under ideal conditions, it gets dangerously close to 3 sec flat.


GennissenGennissen - 11/12/2007 10:05:59 AM
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the mcmerc and lambo murc are 3.8 sec cars. when did the turbo surpass this party?


golfer38golfer38 - 11/12/2007 12:10:44 PMView My AgentSpace
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I did see a time at, I believe Motortrend, 3.4sec. 0-60. To me it seems that Car and Driver usually publishes the quickest 0-60 and quartermile times. They must go to great lengths to test these cars in the ideal conditions, ie. type of asfalt, tire pressure, fuel tank, lauch, etc..


daydaydayday - 11/14/2007 8:48:24 AM
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the M3 did 4.3s, and thats an manual gear box. like the M5, the SMG version is almost 1 second quicker than the maunual one. so i m expecting to see the the SMG M3 goes under 4 seconds as well.


DaHarderDaHarder - 11/11/2007 4:32:08 PM
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These comparison tests are essentially moot to anyone who accepts that each of these vehicles offer the luxury compact performance car buyer something truly exciting to drive, and special to own/experience.

The differences in performance numbers do little to dilute the fact that they're all brilliant vehicles...

Just in slightly differnet flavors.

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henbmwhenbmw - 11/11/2007 4:41:05 PM
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Agreed. It must be be said that all three of these cars are multitudes better than most cars on the road. Just to be running in this group is a privilege.


Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 11/11/2007 4:42:55 PM
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+1... you just cant go wrong with any of them. And my first choice is my first choice no matter who comes out on top in the comparisons.


marcustmarcust - 11/11/2007 9:50:17 PM
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Absolutely!! I couldn't agree more. One must also bear in mind that traditionally Merc has always had a more "stuffy" and "older" image than BMWs although in reality this is hardly the case. Car magazines, in their never ending quest to demonstrate just how "professional" and "brilliant" their views and driving skills are, will almost always side with what they think the majority of the public perception of these cars is - these magazines are, after all, running a business and readership numbers (which in turn translates to more advertisers). I think the compact super performance cars is the epitome of this situation. Another good example is at the other end of the spectrum, the large executive saloons where somehow the Merc S-Class is almost always given the honours despite how good other competitors are (be it BMW 7 Series, Lexus LS, Audi A8).

The same thought came to mind when I read the Autocar comparison of the C63 and the M3 a couple of weeks ago where the author, Chris Harris (of whom I am a fan), said essentially that for more than 80% of the time the C63 does all things just as good as or in some cases much better than the M3 and that the BMW only comes into its own when you get the rare opportunity to really ring the car's neck off above the 7000rpm mark, but for most of the time the C63 really is the better everyday proposition then, lo and behold, towards the end of his article, he says its hard to choose a winner but I will give to the BMW - Huh??? I would have thought that, based on his (not mine) line of thinking thoughout his article, the C63 being the winner is a natural conclusion given that it's a far more all rounded car and just as thrilling a driving machine? I guess the fact that the author had placed an order for a BMW M3 had nothing to with it....

Before the BMW fan boys trash my post, I want to make it clear that I like both of these cars just as much. I have ordered both of them to replace the C55 and previous generation BMW M3 that my wife and I currently drive. My point is, many car magazines will always subscribe to the "sporty" and "car-that-requires-more-driving-skill-to-enjoy-its-full potential" philosophy because it makes them look good . AMG has always, in their minds, stood more for "point-and-squirt" performance which uses big engines rather than fine handling to prove its point (which to some extent is true), hence, even when a product like the C63 comes along which goes against all their pre-conceptions, it will take a long time before they will actually change their mentality - just look at Audi which had to suffer the indignity of being put down by all these car mags until three generations of S and RS A4 models went by.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 11:40:19 PMView My AgentSpace
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"I think the compact super performance cars is the epitome of this situation. Another good example is at the other end of the spectrum, the large executive saloons where somehow the Merc S-Class is almost always given the honours despite how good other competitors are (be it BMW 7 Series, Lexus LS, Audi A8)."

Well, there's a fine line between true bias and when a car deserves to win. In this case, the S-Class is pretty clearly the best in its class right now. It is so excellent in every respect--gorgeous inside and out, confident handling, perfect suspension, all of the latest features. Everyone wants one unless they have one.

Congrats on your C63 AMG and M3! I think you'll have trouble deciding which one you like better.


marcustmarcust - 11/12/2007 2:16:41 AM
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S4, thanks for your input on my example of the S-Class segment as another illustration of how magazines judge cars. In general I gree with what you say (but more on that below).

I just wanted to add that I don't think we can label magazines as biase towards any particular brand but rather they want to make themselves look good or sound like real professional drivers (although in some cases, some testers really ex racing or rally car drivers) so as to add credibility to their magazine. Readers of the magazine will then feel the same, hence, stay loyal because they wish to identify (or see) themselves as great drivers too.

In my example of the the S-class segment, I would agree with you that the current S-Class really is quite mean piece of work and clearly has the edge on most of its competitors in so many areas. But cast your mind back to when the first iteration of the Bangle-designed 7 Series came out - the "new" 7 Series still failed to win the then version of the S-Class which I couldn't understand because having owned (my folks that is) that generation of the S-cLass and then test driven the 7, it was clear to me that the 7 had moved the game on by some degree. Anyway, I guess and hope most cars consumers are smart enough to judge for themselves what car best suits their needs rather than buy a car based purely on whether the rest of the world will judge them as "cool" because of how magazines judge a car. That would be sad.


CzelinskiCzelinski - 11/11/2007 5:30:20 PM
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Exactly, all great cars. You like the look of one over the other, you go for that. Peformance wise, you're not missing much whichever you buy. They all have their advantages over one another.

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rg12345rg12345 - 11/11/2007 5:44:02 PM
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Well, first: this is a big repost. I mean, this comes from a big magazine, we all read it a while ago, on this website also.

Second: no numbers?! I only care about numbers, and they do not have any. Their opinions are second to numbers in this case: we all saw plenty of other magazines placing the RS4 same or better than M3, so it's all about what you like. I just need to see some track numbers (drag and real tracks) with the C63, M3 and RS4 all same time.

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britboxbritbox - 11/11/2007 6:05:37 PM
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i must have missed this article. I have said before that when you get 10 different reviews of the same cars but with different results it says to me that they are all great performers, all a lot of fun and the right one for you is a matter of your own taste. Clearly there is not one that stands head and shoulders above the others.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 6:50:13 PMView My AgentSpace
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Yes, that's what I've always said about this three. Unlike only three years ago--when the M3 was clearly the best in this class--all three present fierce competition for each other and for our wallets. I still don't know which I would choose... well, I don't think I would get the C63, if only because I'm not a Mercedes guy. It's awesome but I wouldn't feel comfortable driving it. That leaves the RS4 and M3, and still, I can't choose.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 6:50:35 PMView My AgentSpace
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*THESE* three...


charlik05charlik05 - 11/11/2007 6:36:54 PM
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car and driver magazine has place BMW's over competitors for many years now. mainly any 3-series regardless of style beats the competition. either is the best or c&d gets paid good $ for the review.

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MaindrianPaceMaindrianPace - 11/11/2007 6:39:23 PM
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Maindrianpace <- BMW Fanboy... this is all very well and good, and I'm glad hat the BMW "Won", but it settles nothing, who here has bought a car based on reviews? Anyone? I hope not becaue all reviews are b*******

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britboxbritbox - 11/11/2007 7:37:16 PM
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i have always bought based on which one I cant stop thinking about, and it is usually an emotional connection to the overall design. Performance figures only add as the catalyst to make the other side of my brain feel good that it was the most "logical" decision.

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EnvyofyouRS5EnvyofyouRS5 - 11/11/2007 10:59:00 PM
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In all fairness the AMG should be scored in first, the most solid reason for this not being true is the fact that the m3 needs it's limelight, because of its freshness in the euro sport segment.


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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 11/11/2007 11:41:27 PMView My AgentSpace
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If the M3 is the better driver's machine, it deserves to win. Although the RS4 and C63 are right up on top of its bumper, the M3 STILL has the best handling, and that's what seals the deal.


MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 11/11/2007 11:30:20 PM
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Whenever an article ranks cars on the subjective aspects you have to equate it to "a person's entitled opinion". It's like letting Siskel&Ebert tell you what movie you should watch because in their opinion it ranks so-and-so. Hardly objective.

Same with cars. Give me an objective comparo and I'll consider the facts. Give me your biased OPINION and its worth nothing to me.

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TheSailorTheSailor - 11/12/2007 6:59:20 AMView My AgentSpace
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"The M3 wins because it is the best-the most sporting and emotionally appealing car in this group. It's not the fastest, but its relatively light weight and deft handling, and the relationship it fosters with the driver, are the most compelling"

See... They got it! This is what it is all about... This is "Magic feel" if anything!
BMW doesn't need the most powerful of the bunch... The M3 is simply better than the competition. You don't need 0-60, skidpad, topspeed etc. to determine which is the better... You just need to get behind the wheel and experience the car! THAT is how you'll know which is the better car and more importantly, which one fits you better!

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EnvyofyouRS5EnvyofyouRS5 - 11/13/2007 7:21:27 PM
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Are you SERIOUS! id rather drive an evo if it were up to that kind of Demeaningness, Not best at the g marks, or 0-60, Track times, Thats what this euro highspeed car segment is all about, WHO is the CHoice on the track! Steering is won by AUDI speed and drift-cornering by the bmw. C'mon now, you are no enthusiast.


Yonder7Yonder7 - 11/12/2007 10:41:59 AM
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rg12345 , S4cabriofoxone , marcust : all of you are right, However I prefer to let emotial side out of the equation. I'm a Mercedes fan, However, against all magazines saying that the best engine sound comes from the C63, I chose M3 sound over the C63 (For me is the one that inspires me). I love the sound of that engine, the only thing that I complaint is about torque. I do not want to underestimate the opinion of the magazines, but as an engineer I do care about numbers so I will waite until I see an instrumented test, the numbers have no feelings, They do not care who you are, they will spite in your face the true, even if you don't like.

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SpeedfreakJoeSpeedfreakJoe - 11/12/2007 12:16:51 PM
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the C63 goes 0-60 in 4.5s! check it in the official Mercedes AMG website!

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Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 11/12/2007 5:55:39 PM
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C63 does 0-60 in 3.9... check out Car and Driver.


gsh23gsh23 - 11/12/2007 5:11:36 PM
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wow...C&D says a BMW wins because its "emotionally appealing." its fine to let your emotions be swayed, but come on. im going to renew my subscription to Top Gear, thanks.

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AMGZING_fanboyAMGZING_fanboy - 11/12/2007 7:44:33 PM
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if only the C63 had the "bmw magic feel"...............

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Yonder7Yonder7 - 11/13/2007 8:10:01 AM
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If only M3 had a real Engine...........

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KingerKinger - 11/13/2007 8:34:35 AM
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Oh its a real engine, the die-cast, over-eutectic aluminium-silicon engine block is sourced from BMW's Landshut F1 foundry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S65


c36amgc36amg - 11/13/2007 3:23:55 PMView My AgentSpace
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let them win the emotional race... mercedes has already won the real race

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AMGZING_fanboyAMGZING_fanboy - 11/14/2007 2:00:05 PM
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agreed^^^^^^^^^


PorschinatorPorschinator - 11/13/2007 7:44:24 PM
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Funny how one mag has Audi RS4 #1, then MB C63 #1, then BMW M3 #1...tells you how close they really are. Articles are from expert opinions and to truly decide you will have to experience the cars for yourself to best suit your needs and wants.

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MeanVulcanMeanVulcan - 11/14/2007 10:10:19 AM
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These are all great cars and they are evenly matched in almost every way. Its no surprise the magazines will "take turns" coming out with THEIR choice winners just to be different but each article is hardly the bible.

To me, the exception makes a big difference, Audi has quattro AWD and the others do not. I can drive it all year around including in snow and still performs as good.


PorschinatorPorschinator - 11/13/2007 7:49:05 PM
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Would have been nice if they added the IS-F...

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