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A Difficult Pill To Swallow: Is The LS600h Green Enough?

Agent009 submitted on 02/26/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 2:51 PM
from: www.autobloggreen.com

[89] user comments | category: Report Cards

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A Difficult Pill To Swallow: Is The LS600h Green Enough?

Since Toyota introduced the world to the practical, mainstream hybrid vehicle a decade ago, it has sold over a million of them. Six different hybrid models are now offered, with three each under the Toyota and Lexus banners. While the Prius continues to grab the bulk of hybrid sales, the newest model in the lineup is far and away the most expensive hybrid any manufacturer has yet offered.

We're talking about the new Lexus LS600h L. The "h" of course represents the fact that this luxury sedan is equipped with Hybrid Synergy Drive (or, as the Lexus division calls it, Lexus Hybrid Drive). Ever since the original LS400 debuted in 1990, Toyota has been trying to take on the best that the Germans have to offer. Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz each offer a 6.0L twelve cylinder engine in their top sedans. Toyota instead chose to follow a different path. Rather than engineer a new, larger engine, it adapted its hybrid system to the LS to create a car that performs like the Germans while delivering better fuel efficiency. We spent a week with the LS600 h L to see if Toyota succeeded.

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Agent009 - 2/26/2008 4:45:35 PMView My AgentSpace

+13 Boost

Well then what is the purpose of the Hybrid in the class?

1. No performance increase
2. No REAL gas mileage increase (ok 1 or 2 mpg)
3. Since it burns almost the same amount of gas then it can't be polluting that much less.
4. And it cost significantly more.

When a automotive green publication asks exactly the same question then we all tend to agree.

My advice save the money and just get a LS460 (a great car) and donate $10K to an eco-friendly charity. Both your wallet and the environment will be better off.

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TheSailor - 2/26/2008 4:55:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+8 Boost

Much less CO2 than what?! A V12 that it can't really compete with?! As Agent009 mentioned, due to the laws of chemistry, the CO2 emmision depends solely on the mileage! For each liter of gasoline burnt, you will emmit a fixed amount of CO2, no matter how clean you think your engine is! This is due to the very simple fact that per BTU, you need to have a certain amount of carbon atoms react with oxygen (in a combustion) and since the amount of C-atoms is the same whether you burn a given liter of fuel in an LS600h or a 760Li, it will give off the same amount of CO2 per liter of fuel... Unless ofcause Lexus have intentionally made an engine which doesn't burn the fuel properly (lower efficiecy and worse fuel economy but relatively better CO2 emmision) giving off soot and CO instead of CO2... And if you think CO2 is bad because it will do something to the environment in the future, CO is even worse killing you and your children right now... But ofcause they aren't doing that. Therefore, the amount of CO2 can't possibly be any better or any worse than a car with the same fuel economy!

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TheSailor - 2/26/2008 5:18:01 PMView My AgentSpace

+10 Boost

Ahh... You know what I've just figured out XeroKOOL? Those strange numbers that have the LS600hL beating the 460 in CO2-emmisions made me wonder how that was possible. And it turns out that the CO2 figure is a calculated value, found via the official mileage. And the official mileage numbers for hybrids happens to be done with fully charged batteries... It all makes sence now! THAT is why the hybrids can't live up to their mileage ratings and THAT is the reason for those inflated CO2 numbers! I would really like to see someone do a proper analysis of the mileage of a hybrid and what exactly comes out of the rear of it!

The funniest thing though, is that now I also understand where they get that free power for the generator from... They don't! The only real gain with a hybrid is the regenerative brakeing! The generator still puts load on the engine during charging meaning that it isn't any cleaner than a gasoline engine with no generator under the same load! Actually, as far as I can see, it should be less efficient because of losses in the inverter and the charger circuitry... and there are losses when drawing power from the battery. So in order for that system to increase the efficiency of the vehicle, the total loss in all those systems (including the electric motors actually)would have to be lower than the loss in the CVT... And that makes me wonder what kind of fuel economy and performance the LS600h would get without that "h" and the added weight of the system! My guess would be the same!

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adamsaf723 - 2/26/2008 6:05:03 PM

+5 Boost

People that are getting the LS600hL are people that are all about technology, want the top of the line Lexus has to offer, and want something nobody else is going to have. They are probably also getting some sort of insurance break too seeing as how its SULEV instead of just ULEV. Emissions are less, I guess they can mentally justify it.

To consumers where realistic car purchases are justified, this doesn't cut it. It needed a sub-5 seconds time. Lexus didn't do enough to create a gap for this bohemith.

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damikco - 2/26/2008 8:13:43 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2588

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M35MT - 2/27/2008 8:06:57 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Let's see how long it takes him to post the same thread again.

Tomorrow it will be time for another IS-F thread about how the bodykit looks tacky.

THIS IS NOT NEWS.

The LS600 doesnt get impressive gas mileage, that has been established, move on.

Buy something else if you dont like it. It's that simple.

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zorbeeze - 2/29/2008 1:11:44 PM

+1 Boost

" the CO2 emmision depends solely on the mileage!"
WHAT????????
You are clueless when it comes to science so i suggest you stop yapping.

reply to this comment

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 3:44:17 PM

+14 Boost

The 760 outperformed the "normal" 7-Series for four years until 2006 when the 750 replaced the 745. The Lexus LS600h NEVER outperformed the LS460, it's just a gargantuan waste of $27000. Either way, I'm pretty sure the new 7-Series due out in seven months, powered by a twin turbo V8 w/ 400hp and 450lb-ft in base entry level trim, will outperform both the 760 and the LS600h. And it'll offer all-wheel drive within a year of launch without forcing you to pay $27k extra for it (and without costing you 1/3 of the trunk in the process). I don't know if BMW is planning a 760 replacement, but they're raising the bar substantially with the base 7-Series, so it'll be pretty exciting if they do.

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JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 4:00:38 PM

+15 Boost

riiiiight, because the $120k 760Li has no refinement whatsoever. None I say!

Anyway, back to reality. Oh, you do know that engine serves as the basis for the Rolls Royce, right? Who cares though, right? I mean, it's not like Rolls Royces are known for refinement. Oh wait, they are...

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 2/26/2008 4:00:43 PMView My AgentSpace

+14 Boost

XeroKOOL... Can you decide what you actually mean? One second you say the LS600 is faster than the 750 and the 760 but now you are saying that it isn't really that important?!

reply to this comment

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 4:29:58 PM

+14 Boost

Spellchecker, didn't you ever learn you're not supposed to start a sentence with "because"? If you're going to correct people, at least be correct yourself.

reply to this comment

TURACO - 2/26/2008 9:54:53 PM

+1 Boost

Spellchecker001,

You are hilarious!

reply to this comment

autopro - 2/26/2008 3:34:39 PMView My AgentSpace

-12 Boost

Its just like when the BABE lost the HR record to Hank Aaron,some people just can't stand to see their brand LOSE,sorry bmw and mercedes your glory days are gone.

reply to this comment

pushrod27 - 2/26/2008 3:44:51 PM

+11 Boost

how do you come to that analogy? anybody who knows anything about cars would prefer a 760Li, A8 W12, or an S600.

Only women and diehard Toyota customers are impressed by the LS600hL.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/26/2008 7:28:52 PMView My AgentSpace

+9 Boost

Spellchecker001

A8 W12

"A8L W12"

Bored - 2/26/2008 3:35:28 PM

+8 Boost

I'm surprised that the AutoBlog Green writer acknowledged that the additional cost of the hybrid is not worth it and would rather have a clean diesel V8, an engine that apparently is already available.
Nice car and I like the fact that they are offering an alternative with the hybrid. But to me, it's not enough especially at the cost of entry.

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JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 3:48:43 PM

+17 Boost

how about you give me all the luxury/refinement AND the power AND the fuel economy? Because that's what a diesel gives you. Case in point, the absolute spanking the Audi A8L diesel V8 gave the LS600h. You can put all those gizmos and gadgets and luxury tidbits into ANY car, it's not like having a diesel engine precludes them. When it came to performance the A8 blew the LS's doors off. And it got 50% better fuel economy. All for $30k less. And as an added bonus, Audi even throws in the 30% of your trunk that you lose with the LS600h. OUCH.

LexusKindaGuy12 - 2/26/2008 4:35:19 PM

-12 Boost

when was the last time refinement was in the same sentence as diesel?

when there was a "not" in between

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 5:44:51 PM

+11 Boost

spoken like someone who has obviously never driven or been in the new crop of diesels.

You're going to be in for a very rude awakening later this year when BMW, MB, and Audi bring over their newest diesels. When was the last time someone used "refined" and "diesel" in a sentence without the word "not" in between them? Why, that would be "every day for the past several years, including writeups from U.S. enthusiast magazines that got to test the cars we weren't getting". Wait and see my friend, there's a revolution coming.

Bored - 2/27/2008 6:08:43 AM

+4 Boost

@ XeroK00L,

What are you? 14?
Don't let "fanboyism" get in the way of logical thinking.

@ LexusKindaGuy12,

Quite often, just not in the U.S. -- yet.

1970toyotamarc - 2/26/2008 3:48:25 PM

-10 Boost

here we go again.....

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 2/26/2008 4:08:08 PMView My AgentSpace

+8 Boost

Ohh well... Here goes the Lexus fans with the

"but it is so much more than the 460"... NO! It is a leather dash, a few "hybrid"-badges and LED-headlights more... And that definitely not worth the +25k

"but it has the power of a V12"...That might very well be the case, but it has the performance of a V8 and IT IS STILL A V8! Still doesn't justify the +25k

"but it is a hybrid"... So? It still doesn't offer what it promised! The extra weight means that it doesn't actually deliver a better fuel economy than the LS460... Or better performance!

When will Lexus offer an ACTUAL V12 to compete with the other companies V12?! People buy these cars because of the prestige of a V12, not "the power of a V12". That is a bit like buying one of those fake iPods and saying "but it looks like an iPod"... So?!

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LexusKindaGuy12 - 2/26/2008 4:33:46 PM

-1 Boost

you fogot:

"its awd". have a comment for this one?

TheSailor - 2/26/2008 4:47:07 PMView My AgentSpace

+10 Boost

Nope... That is really the only thing it has going for it, but so does the A8...

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 5:47:55 PM

+11 Boost

the A8 is also AWD, and the diesel V8 version of the car destroyed the 600h in a comparison test. Absolutely killed it. $30k less, 30% larger trunk, quicker, better handling, and a ridiculous 50% better fuel economy.

Yeah, lots of downsides there. I can totally understand why someone would buy the hybrid over the diesel.

528i - 2/26/2008 4:20:56 PMView My AgentSpace

-14 Boost

Spellchecker001...hahahahahahah oh my bad. Hahahahahah

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theoptimisticpessimist - 2/26/2008 4:56:50 PM

-1 Boost

Kan WEe bahn spellchker.

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TheSailor - 2/26/2008 5:06:55 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

I guess he will grow tired of it eventually.

Spell check, please!

fuzion - 2/26/2008 5:09:06 PM

+5 Boost

I think this is the 3rd time an article like this has been posted, please find something else to post about. I think you post this article every few weeks to get the fan boys in an uproar and generate traffic. :(

me > *

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answer - 2/26/2008 5:09:31 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Dis ride be pure hotness yo! Dem dat hate kant preciate

(Just wanted to give the new autospies spellchecker something to do)

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answer - 2/26/2008 5:24:41 PMView My AgentSpace

-4 Boost

dizam

damikco - 2/26/2008 8:14:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2588

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 2/27/2008 2:21:37 AMView My AgentSpace

+8 Boost

If you read my response to Xero almost at the top of the page, you will know that the ONLY reason why it get the CO2 rating it does is because of a calculation! Since it doesn't live up to the EPA rating, it doesn't live up to it's CO2 rating!

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EL34 - 2/26/2008 11:09:34 PM

+6 Boost

You'd have to be completely nuts to pay one hundred thousand dollars for that piece of trash.

My goodness :-?

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huu76 - 2/26/2008 11:53:26 PM

-5 Boost

009,
???
Long review but fair overall, actually gives valid reasons for negative opinions.

The LShL is not clean compared to a Prius, but it's miles ahead of the Germn V8/V12s and diesels.

13mpg vs 19mpg in the city. Lower emissions, same speed as the V12s (except the S600) but with better mileage (city and highway). The Germans can't even approach SULEV, no matter what fuel they're burning.

The German diesels only stand a chance if you drive them strictly on the highway.

Look at this. It's a 2002 but I doubt much has changed in the 745i.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=66142/pageNumber=2

0-60 in 6 sec
19.9mpg observed (I assume that's combined).

The LS600hL is heavier, yet faster and more fuel efficient. Welcome to the 21st century!

They gotta bring that EV switch to N.A., especially when the plug-in Prius (and hopefully Camry hybrid) arrive. Just like turning off O/D in the city.

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Willis - 2/27/2008 5:42:06 AM

+9 Boost

Huu76 needs some serious help if the thinks the LS600h is actually cleaner and more fuel efficient than some German diesels.

The LS600h has been proven to have virtually ZERO environmental benefits. ZERO. NONE. Every review about the car questions its existence and slams it when it comes to performance and fuel economy.

There is nothing green or environmentally friendly about an LS600h. Nothing.

lexusis350 - 2/26/2008 11:54:07 PM

-6 Boost

Is it green enough? I would say so. It's cleaner and more efficient than the competition, but it's no Prius. Then again, I think that Lexus has hybrids for more power rather than efficiency.

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S4cabriofoxone - 2/27/2008 8:03:51 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

What competition? It's slower than the twelve-cylinder sedans and less efficient than the eight-cylinder sedans.

lexusis350 - 2/27/2008 2:03:16 PM

-3 Boost

The S-Class, BMW 760i, and the A8 are the competition. And the fact that it's slower isn't that important. Speed isn't everything. Plus, it's faster than those V8 cars.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/27/2008 10:02:50 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

It can only keep up with the S550, 750i and A8 4.2, as most sources haven't achieved Lexus's quoted time.

What are you talking about, speed isn't everything in the twelve-cylinder class? So what DOES it have if it's such a great competitor? A leather dash???

huu76 - 2/26/2008 11:55:22 PM

-6 Boost

I forgot to mention. Gotta love how the LS600hL's worst enemy continues to be the LS460.

The LS460 is probably the better financial deal overall, but if I had the money, I'd pay for the exlusivity of performance and being environmentally friendlier.

reply to this comment

Willis - 2/27/2008 5:39:37 AM

+9 Boost

If you had the brains, you'd figure out that driving an LS460 or LS600h has nothing to do with being environmentally friendly. That goes for all cars in this class.

StickShiftCamry - 2/27/2008 1:16:49 AM

-7 Boost

Wish it didn't have standard AWD and L wheel base, it would've been much faster.

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LexusKindaGuy12 - 2/27/2008 3:18:53 AM

-8 Boost

this is only on North America. you can get the 600H in short wheelbase in japan and other countries

enthusiastx11 - 2/27/2008 1:22:21 AM

+9 Boost

to answer the question: NO.

and anyone who argues that a 5,000 pound car that gets 20mpg is 'green' is operating at the height of moral relativism.

reply to this comment

enthusiastx11 - 2/29/2008 12:07:38 PM

+1 Boost

xyz and obama:

thanks for making my point! moral relativism...

Willis - 2/27/2008 5:38:39 AM

+3 Boost

This is aimed at XYZZ. A little discussion we had in the "Lexus Prius" thread...

"the 3.5 toyota v6, which puts of 268 hp. all the euro v6s have hp in just the 230 - 260 range, and have to resort to turbos or TWIN turbos to surpass this NATURALLY ASPIRATED high output toy v6."

You have got to be kidding me. You're highlighting the Toyota Camry V6 as "special" because it makes 268-horsepower and no European V6 can match it? That's some funny sh*t right there. Seriously how old are you?

Tell me something, is the Camry V6 even sold in Japan? Europe? No. It's sold in North America, the Middle East and Australia. These are places where there is a demand for powerful engines. Big deal. Toyota created this engine for those markets. The European V6 engines are primarily created for Europe and a global market which means they have to be balanced in terms of power output, emissions etc.

Bottom line, I couldn't care less about your Camry V6. If the Camry was really supposed to be a "normal family sedan" it wouldn't need an overpowered, gas-guzzling V6 engine anyway. Incredible how full of crap Toyota marketing is with their claims of being a "green company".

"yes and many are made by toyota and honda too. why did Lotus choose to install a TOYOTA 1.8 Four in the Elise. dumping the euro made 4 used previously?"

Maybe you should drive a BMW 1.8 4-cylinder? Or the new Mercedes 1.8-l Supercharged 4-cylinder with TwinPulse, because those are some of the finest, most refined 4-cylinders I have ever experienced. Heck, even the Peugeot 206cc I drove last summer in Europe had a wonderful 4-cylinder engine under the hood.

Honda in my book makes much better 4-cylinders than Toyota. In fact I sampled the current Camry in 4-cylinder form and I was not impressed with the refinement. The car wasn't slow but the refinement was terrible. It felt like a 4-cylinder engine from the '80s. I am not kidding. Toyota 4-cylinder engines are durable, but refienement wise they've been nothing to brag about. And I should know, because I've also owned quite a few Toyota's in the '80s and early '90s.

And who cares if Lotus picked the Toyota 1.8-l engine? Should I give a damn that Tatra in India uses Mercedes-Benz engines? Or Ssangyong? The Toyota 1.8-l engine was picked primarily because it was one of the few 4-cylinder engines that could fit in the Lotus Elise engine bay. Look it up.

"bottom line STILL remains: there are poseurs/cheapskate BADGE WHORES who like to bask in the "prestige" of certain brands but get the SMALLEST/CHEAPEST RUNNING engine offered in that "prestige brand." i wonder how many of these folk get passed by on the Autobahn by "mere" toyotas!? LOL!"

First of all, it is my understanding that Toyota doesn't even have any powerful engines in Europe (no V6's). The majority of their sales come from the Aygo, Yaris, Auris and possibly the Corolla with a few Avensis and a handful of SUV's or pickups. None of these cars, exce

reply to this comment

Rupert - 2/28/2008 5:02:43 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

As far as European non-turboed sixes with more than 268 hp - the 330i in Europe has 270 hp, the CLS 350CGI has 300 hp, as does the new SL350 and SLK350. The Passat 3.6 R36 has 300 hp, and the Cayenne 3.6 has 286 hp, Q7 3.6 has 278 hp, the Porsche Boxster S 3.4 has 295 hp, the 911 3.6 has 325 hp, the 3.8 has 355 hp.

Now shall we find the powerful 6 cylinders Toyota sells in Europe?
Well we have the GS350 with 300 hp, The RX350 with 270 hp, the IS250 with 204 hp, the Land Cruiser (Like the Lexus GX in the US) 4.0 V6 with 245 hp, the...ummmm....

M35MT - 2/27/2008 8:22:32 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

It's basically a 25k premium for AWD, fewer emissions and better stop-and-go city MPG.

If you like a cushy Lexus and want AWD and drive in a busy city.

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 2/27/2008 10:03:29 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

...You get a GS350 AWD.

huu76 - 2/29/2008 12:13:29 AM

0 Boost

Rupert,
HP = (torque x rpm)/5252
It's just an equation, easily changed.
Do you ever wonder why the sub 300hp Evo and STi can outperform basically everything from Europe eventhough they only have 4 cylinders and less hp?

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 2/29/2008 1:16:57 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Are you kidding? The new EVO can't keep up with a BMW 335i. I really like the looks, but it's a step backwards in performance.

Rupert - 2/29/2008 10:08:48 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Because they weigh less!

macker83 - 2/29/2008 11:22:45 PM

+2 Boost

The mitsubishi evo X wrc can keep up with any lambo youtube that and top gear!!!!and you'll see the result

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