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Are American Companies Simply Giving Away The Keys To Our Automotive Industry?
Evolution in the automotive world is an ongoing process.  Brands start up, fail and fall by the wayside, shuttered forever left only as a hollow name.  You may know many of them by the names:  Edsel, Packard, Tucker and Cord.  Even more recently brands such as Eagle, AMC, and Oldsmobile have become just distant memories and rusting hulks.

Back in the 70’s the big three were on top of the world in the U.S. market and scoffed at the very idea of imports eventually dominating the landscape.  But then came the 80’s and early 90’s, and a decade of poor management decisions, deteriorating quality, and shoddy designs and a whole generation was taught that American cars were simply unfit.  

As we round out the first decade of the 21st century, we see Detroit’s decisions may come back to haunt them, yet again.  This time, the very process that saves the bottom line today, may eventually lead to more hostile environment in the near future.  The sale of the Jaguar, Land Rover, and possibly the sale of at least one of GM’s brands may forever change the landscape as we know it.  

With the dire economic downturn of the major makers are not only revaluating brands, but now they are jettisoning of whole wings of the manufacturing process.  While the current practice of selling an unprofitable division may make economic sense.  I see a far more dangerous side of the equation.  

In the past brands were simply shuttered. The factories idled, and the infrastructure abandoned or stripped.  Today however, the sale of whole entities now allows these critical structures to remain in place.  An excellent case in point is the sale of Jaguar and Land Rover to the Indian firm of Tata.  Rather than creating the whole infrastructure over several years as relatively recent brands like Hyundai and Kia have done.  Tata now has an instant infrastructure of shipping, supply and even dealerships in place to continue with the sale of these luxury marques.  Talk about an instant presence in a market  that Tata couldn’t even break into a year ago. But how can this infrastructure be leveraged for new lines?  You would be naive to think not, Jaguar potentially could market a low cost Nano derivative similar to what Mercedes has done with SMART.  

Now let’s turn our attention to the Chinese. The sale of any of General Motors divisions will probably have to come from outside the U.S. and most likely from China.  China’s largest manufacturer, Chery has already expressed interest in HUMMER and rumors persist of an interest in other GM brands as well.  So for argument sake lets say GM decides to sell both HUMMER and Buick to Chery for a much influx in needed cash. Great news for GM in the short term, I guess.  

However, which is more valuable the actual vehicle lineup, or the distribution, and dealership network? The dealership network can be leveraged for and all out assault lower cost vehicles directly from China?  Think all of this speculation is ridiculous?  The Chinese simply can’t compete? Look no further than Hyundai my friends and you will see just how fast it can be turned around.  Once the brunt of jokes in the 80’s, in just a mere decade and a half Hyundai had become a respected manufacturer of high quality sensible cars.  I bet GM and Ford didn’t see that coming, now did they?  

Nor will they see the exact same thing from the when they compete directly against the very companies that gave them their foothold in this market?  With lower costs in almost every area the Chinese will dominate the pricing equation, and it will only be a matter of time before the quality is there as well.

So have we given the competition the keys to our own industry?


Are American Companies Simply Giving Away The Keys To Our Automotive Industry?



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silver1silver1 - 7/8/2008 11:42:59 AM
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YES!!! And we can't blame no one but ourselves...

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holmstarholmstar - 7/8/2008 3:14:43 PM
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That is a double-negative. Sorry, my wife teaches English. I couldn't help it.


AgentOrangeAgentOrange - 7/8/2008 11:52:39 AMView My AgentSpace
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The U.S. designs and builds the best weapon systems in the world.
Maybe if some of those creative resources and talent were allocated to the design and manufacture of consumer goods, then,,,,,,,,,,,
Naw, forget it, just dreaming...........


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ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 7/9/2008 3:11:33 AM
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good point!

i remember this very observation has been brought up before: the BEST science and engineering talent in the u.s. tend to go to the higher paying defense industries. detroit is lucky to get greaduates from the second or even third string teams. (electronics and IT also snare their shares of top talent.)

japan, germany and korea have NO parallel gov't subsidized industries cranking out products useful for NOTHING except during wars. so the top engineering talent in those countries, go to THEIR auto industries.
no wonder detroit has such a tuff time trying to be competitive.




kpaxxkpaxx - 7/8/2008 12:11:13 PM
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Unions.....unequaled trade...Government sponsorship for foreign manufacturers...

The recipe was there!


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cycocyco - 7/8/2008 5:12:37 PM
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Spot on, I couldn't agree more.

The US Gov has done much to stifle American companies while high-fiving foreign ones. Those same foreign ones are getting the competitive edge from their own governments back home. Then there's the albatros of unions.. They used to be for taking care of regular Joe Sixpack and making sure he gets treated fairly. Now they're no different from any other politically minded self-centered machine.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are not entirely without blame on this though. None of what I just said is exactly a secret.. They could've sucked it up and adapted, fought this crap in front of congress day in and day out while working on doing things better back at the factory.

Plenty of blame to go around on this..



damikcodamikco - 7/8/2008 10:02:43 PMView My AgentSpace
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No cant blame the Unions, they do take care of the average man. For the last decade the Unions have been working hand in hand with the big three in terms of labor cost and giving up benifits to help the big three, GM in my opinion makes great cars they just have a negative perception in the publics eye, have you test driven a Chevy Malibu or Pontiac G8 latley?


answeranswer - 7/8/2008 12:24:41 PMView My AgentSpace
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cdokecdoke - 7/8/2008 12:48:10 PMView My AgentSpace
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The whole scenario reminds me of that declension in "Whose Afraid of Virginia Woolf?":

Good, Better, Best, Bested.

Manufacturers cannot rest on their laurels as the saying goes. In addition, advanced economies are services driven for a reason- manufacturing jobs relative to developing countries are at a disadvantage. Do I believe that we are in the beginning of a domestic Renaissance? Yes, but they really need to get their house in order to even make it.

It is a legitimate point that we are giving away an infrastructure to competitos who can then produce that product cheaper. However, China in particular has MASSIVE Q.C. problems EVERYWHERE. Everything from Steel (I remember a professor telling us to NEVER buy Chinese pipe, because it has massive impurities in it and will fail before its cited yield strength) to drugs (The drug digitak was recently recalled due to substitution of componenents). It will take at least a few decades to sort out their problems.

Having said all of that, I would never buy a Chinese car anyway. I am sure that such an opinion may not remain popular in time, but I really don't care.


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Maverick2020Maverick2020 - 7/8/2008 12:54:58 PM
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I think it is the f*cked-up Detroit thinking that has doomed the domestic auto industry. It is about doing only what is necessary and sufficient--the very definition of mediocrity.

They have lost generations of buyers who would never consider their vehicles. I count myself among that group.

Ultimately GM and Ford will be the only two 'domestic' manufacturers standing in the nest few years. They will be much smaller, and hopefully, more focused than they are today. I think GM has made some good changes, but they need to go farther.

Sometimes industries go through huge change. This change has been brewing for decades and is now in full force. It's called Creative Destruction.



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damikcodamikco - 7/8/2008 10:03:41 PMView My AgentSpace
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steve27tsteve27t - 7/9/2008 4:03:30 AM
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I have a suspicion that Michael Taylor is no older than 16 !!!!

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steve27tsteve27t - 7/9/2008 4:03:36 AM
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I have a suspicion that Michael Taylor is no older than 16 !!!!

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bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/9/2008 3:44:46 PM
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If it wasnt for chrysler technology starting with the hemi head, gear reduction starters, unibody construction, high stall converters, torsion bars, long ram intakes skirted crossbolt block design....back in the late 50s.... I dont think toyota could have figured it out on there own.

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ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 7/16/2008 2:26:25 AM
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and what has chrysler contributed SINCE the 1950s???

and incidentally, chrysler was the LAST of the big 3 (and maybe ALL auto makers) to abandon flatheads for more modern ohv engines. you could still get a flathead 6 plymouth or dodge in 1959!

guess chrysler had ALL their engineers working on the Hemi and put none on updating the Six for a few decades. and while good for its day, it was a MARKETING FAILURE. cost too much to produce for the minimal advantage it offered.
and the current "Hemi" is not even a real hemi. just another obsolescent OHV type living off of PAST glory.

it is totally outclassed by japan's and germany's DOHC v6s and v8s.


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bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/23/2008 9:51:31 PM
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Chicane-Shooter... Yes the hemi was expensive and also to wide for future vehicles but lets see what did Chrysler do in the late 50s, How about Unibody construction, Progressive torsion bars and leif springs,fuel injection, an polysphere combustion design [swirl-port] and later long ram induction and cross ram induction, high stall converters, gear reduction starters electronic Ignition should I go on. And by the way the 5.7 and 6.1 are true hemis [Note; Hemi= half circle combustion chamber... thats it] And name me one V8 engine made that today can make close to 8 thousand HP from a design back in 1964? Answer: 426 Chrysler HEMI. By the way many cylinder heads from europe and japan are based on a Hemi design.

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Dr550Dr550 - 7/8/2008 1:53:01 PM
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Besides union issues, American auto companies lack the economy of scale that Japanese companies enjoy. Toyota/Honda/Nissan share componets across their respective brands worldwide. For example, European Accord is Acura TSX, Toyota 3.5 V6 used in Lexus, etc. Ford needs to bring European models to US ASAP.

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mpwrmpwr - 7/8/2008 2:12:16 PM
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the final result of spending your capital on marketing and not on engineering, the irony is that the gap in engineering and quality has narrowed. seems to me to little to late

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spydogocspydogoc - 7/8/2008 3:39:21 PM
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Good point about marketing vs engineering...

The US dominated the auto industry for so long we seem to have lost the vision and drive to keep it up.

I for one hope we wake up and dominate again!



damikcodamikco - 7/8/2008 10:07:31 PMView My AgentSpace
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Many pepole are responding to this without evan driving an American car. GM is just as good as Toyota i cant say the same for the other big 2.

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MercedesBenz00ZMercedesBenz00Z - 7/8/2008 10:52:28 PM
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ya right


bigTYMEbigTYME - 7/9/2008 12:22:03 AMView My AgentSpace
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I absolutely agree with what you are saying. Since 2002, I have had four different GM cars, all leased, and never had a problem throughout all the leases. Lately we have leased a few Chrysler products and I can see the difference in quality. I never understood why people bashed American cars until I got a Jeep. The cheap handbrake broke. The window buttons were messed up from day one. Every once in a while I get a weird sound at ignition. The CD loader has a mind of its own. There was a weird clicking sound coming from under the midsection after I hit some uneven pavement. All this from 0-15,000 miles. I would understand if it had 50,000+ miles, but the car is still under warranty. I mean it's not a bad car if they can fix these stupid quality issues. In fact I actually enjoy driving it. The handling and performance is pretty good for an SUV. But still I don't want anything from Chrysler again, not even with that lifetime powertrain warranty. God help Chrysler cause I don't see them alive in the next 5 years if they continue on this path. BTW the only time the GM cars went to the shop were for oil changes and tire rotations. I put about 36,000 miles on all of them. Not sure how they stood up past that, but they were flawless while I had them, unlike the Chrysler products. I was kind of skeptical at one point about buying an American car, but I'm happy to say I would not be afraid to buy something from GM, and maybe even Ford as of late.


bigTYMEbigTYME - 7/9/2008 12:27:16 AMView My AgentSpace
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...handling and performance *are* pretty good...


bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/9/2008 3:51:55 PM
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I agree, I have friends and family that drive Tahoes, Magnums, Chrysler 300, Fusions, chargers, pontiac G6 and receintly a malibu, all with good reviews. American cars have gotton way better, it will take a while to get consumer confidence back. I bought one of the last neons for my daughter and so far with @ 39K and 31 hwy.... neet little car


tkindredtkindred - 7/11/2008 12:27:49 AM
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I think GM has made a huge turn around in the quality of cars. Before they made garbage and relied on "buy American" too long. Now their cars are actually of quality but their reputation has been ruined. Also, they were too greedy trying to squeeze every last drop out of the SUV craze which provide them with huge profits off of truck chassis. They had nothing in the pipeline for more fuel conscious consumers. And how much do the CEO's get paid at these companies? Too much.


dumpstydumpsty - 7/8/2008 10:52:32 PM
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We all know GM is "thinking" about selling a brand or, at the least, licensing a brand to raise much-needed cash to fund their daily operations.

In this situation, the rumor may have become fact...b/c GM does need extra dough and they're cancelling many existing and future products left-and-right. GM is hurting, but any minor notion that a brand should be sold is pure act of desperation. Of course, it'll hard to do that with it's legacy brands such as Buick, Pontiac, & Hummer. OK, the Hummer brand hasn't been around long, but the Humvee has and the 8-slot grill has a deep history in the US and with the US military that's intertwined with the Jeep brand also. Heck, GM should be trying to purchase Jeep...that's a discussion for another day.

GM has brands that are successful in other countries and markets, to sell the wrong one may prove unwise if that were to happen. The worst scenario would be if GM were to sell a brand to some fairly unknown entity, and that entity then takes the brand/company private and starts to develop new products that are more creative and prestigious than they were under GM ownership...and then they end up turn fairly sizable profits w/n a few years and do well...while taking even more market share from GM's other brands.

That would hurt real bad.


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dumpstydumpsty - 7/8/2008 10:54:46 PM
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....and make the current GM management look like the dumbasses people already think they are now...


MercedesBenz00ZMercedesBenz00Z - 7/8/2008 10:53:28 PM
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Giving away? No. GM and Ford are trying their best but they just can't make cars. It's that simple.

When it comes to cars, it's gotta be either German or Japanese, always :)


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dumpstydumpsty - 7/8/2008 10:59:09 PM
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And I would like to add:

Look at Subaru. The Tribeca looks 100% better now that Toyota did some design changes...thank god! But the changes were so simple, why couldn't GM have done that to save the overall division? Maybe the wrong people have the most power at GM and they're decisions are costing the company too much. Where's Icahn? He needs to threaten hostile takeover to get the "best" creative juices flowing again.


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ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 7/9/2008 3:22:31 AM
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the BEST science and engineering talent in the u.s. tend to go to the higher paying defense industries. detroit is lucky to get greaduates from the second or even third string teams. (electronics and IT also snare their shares of top talent.)

japan, germany and korea have NO parallel gov't subsidized industries cranking out products useful for NOTHING except during wars. so the top engineering talent in those countries, go to THEIR auto industries.
no wonder detroit has such a tuff time trying to be competitive.

detroit is now PAYING THE PRICE for the american fascination for war and war toys.



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ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 7/9/2008 3:27:01 AM
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likewise, the Dollar is tanking vs. other currencies for much the same reason.

ONE TRILLION $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ has been pumped down the toilet for Dubya's wars.

while he irresponsibly CUTS TAXES for the rich. and his cronies the Big Oilys are totally unfettered as they raid the wallets of american consumers.




bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/9/2008 4:03:09 PM
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This is for Chicane Shooter. He cut taxes for the rich? My taxes were cut and I am definately not rich. And the Big Oil boys as you call them are owned by stock holders like 401K and the like. If they make money so does retirement accounts and share holders [ like you ] The top 5% wealthy folks pay 74% of all income takes. Some day you will figure it out



ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 7/11/2008 4:28:47 AM
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as a PERCENTAGE of your income, you pay MANY TIMES MORE than bush's buddies do.

you should also look at stats on how much of america the top 5% owns, vs. the rest of the population.

the super rich SHOULD pay more taxes. they BENEFIT MOST from all gov't services, and infrastructure. why do you think big rig trucks pay so much road taxes? do YOU earn thousands of dollars using our highways? does YOUR vehicle put as much wear and tear on our highways and bridges?

do YOU benefit from corporate welfare? factory farm subsidies? subsidies for EXPORTING JOBS?

ours IS NOT a "pay as you use" society. people like you and me pay a significant part of our income in taxes. the super rich get ALL the gov't benefits they can snag, FOR A PITTANCE if not for FREE (at OUR expense).

btw, the 'tax cut' you got from Dubya was just CRUMBS off the table compared to what his buddies got.




bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/11/2008 11:34:17 AM
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ChicaneShooter. Im Self employed. I take advantage of the tax structure just like the big boys. And get off the Bush Buddies... That dosent cut it with me. Did you ever think the the top 5% take the risk. As for corporations, I dont think there should be penalties for success. The opportunity in the united states is for everybody. Corporate welfare, subsidies [ thats liberalism] not free enterprise. The wealthy donate a good portion of there profitt to social needs like hospitals and the like. Im just tired of those that think our corporations are the bad guys. Ill say that a small protion of corps are creeps but a large majority are not. So you dont like Geroge Bush... I dont care about that. I do know that when the big corps do well, so do I.


steve27tsteve27t - 7/9/2008 4:26:41 AM
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The US auto industry is going in a similar direction to the way the much smaller UK auto industry went in the 70's and 80's in the face of Japanese competition. Lack of investment and foresight will continue to decimate the industry. GM and Ford have improved quality but where is the STYLE ! Ford have some stylish European models but continue to shoot themselves int he foot by Americanising these products for the US market. Do BMW, Audi etc bastardize their styling for the US consumer? What the hell are Ford thinking? People are saying how great GM cars are now but they look like sh-t.

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bestofallcadbestofallcad - 7/9/2008 4:58:13 PM
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MercedesBenz00Z AND AMINANBIMMER I ALWAYS SEE THESE TWO COMMENT SO BAD THAT AGAIN BOTH OF you make me sick...... With comments like go bankrupt GM No you ass go bankrupt Mercedes, because Mercedes is a German car, GM is a American car which suports AMERICAN PEOPLE, IT GIVES JOBS TO AMERICAN PEOPLE, IT PAYS TAXES TO AMERICA, WHICH HELPS SUPPORTS DIFFERENT PROGRAMS THAT SUPPORT, AMERICAN PEOPLE, AMERICAN BUSINESSES, AMERICAN JOBS WHICH ALL MEANS THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE.

DO YOU WANT THE NEXT DEPRESSION????, YOU DUMB A**, IF THE BIG 3 WENT UNDER WATCH OUT WE WILL BE SO CLOSE TO A DEPRESSION IF NOT A DEPRESSION. AND THIS TIME AROUND IT WILL BE MUCH HARDER AND TAKE A LOT MORE TIME TO RECOVER FROM THEN THE 1ST ONE SINCE AT THAT TIME AMERICA WAS THE WORLD LEADER, IN EVERYTHING, DEVELOPING PRODUCTS, INVENTING PRODUCTS, AND MANUFACTERING PRODUCTS. WELL TODAY AMERICAN MANUFACTERING IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE RARE, SO NOW TAKE THE CAR MANUFACTURING OUT WELL BAD TIMES WILL HIT.

Just think about this you dumb A**, IF THE BIG THREE WENT UNDER, WHAT EVER SMALL PROTION OF LEVERAGE WE HAVE WITH FORIEN AUTO MAKERS WOULD BE GONE, THEY THEN WOULD NOT EVEN HAVE TO HAVE PLANTS HERE which helps support some American jobs, SINCE WE WOULD HAVE TO BUY THEIR CARS they could pull their plants nothing would stop them from doing this, BECAUSE WE WOULD NOT HAVE CHOICE but to buy their cars since we would not be manufacturing American cars any longer. They also then could charge anything they wanted since America would not have a choice. Just look at Gas Prices we are relianent on forien oil and what are gas prices????

The big three are a Big part of Americas economy and do not forget that you Dumby!!!! Sorry I have stooped to their level however I have to defend American companys because I live here, make money here, and was So Lucky to be Born in The Greatest Nation in the world, so when I hear or see other people like these two and see these comments about my countrys company's it makes me sick to my stomach.

DO YOU LIKE YOUR MERCEDES, WELL I HOPE YOU DO SINCE YOU ARE AND WOULD BE TO BLAME, AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU FOR BAD ECONOMIC TIMES IN AMERICA. IF THE BIG THREE WENT OUT OF BUSINESS IT WOULD EFFECT AMERICA, MAYBE NOT FOR AWHILE BUT FOR DO YOU WANT YOUR KIDS TO HAVE THE SAME OPPROTUNITY'S IN THE FUTURE??? THEN YOU BETTER START TO SUPPORT OUR COUNTRY'S BUSINESSES AND YOU CAN START BY OR YOUR RUDE COMMENTS BY NOT PUTTING THEM DOWN AND WISHING THEY WOULD GO OUT OF BUSINESS.

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP OUR COUNTRY'S ECONOMY HEALTHY THEN SUPPORT AMERICAN COMPANY'S OR ATLEAST KEEP YOUR RUDE COMMENTS TO YOUR SELF. IF YOU CANNOT MAYBE YOU WANT TO MAKE THIS COUNTRY A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY??? IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE IT WHEN YOU DO NOT SUPPORT AMERICAN COMPANYS AND YOU EVEN GO FURTHER BY KNOCKING THEM.




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bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/9/2008 5:25:53 PM
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Couldn't have said it any better


mercuryguymercuryguy - 7/10/2008 5:19:44 PM
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Yes. Car companies are becoming marketing companies, trying to guess what will sell insted of building innovation.

Lincoln MKt is a great looking vehicle, but it needs the new Ford 4.4L Diesel to compete against the Audi Q5 wich already has a Diesel. Insted, Ford will water down its vehicle to a front drive v6 econobox. Didn't thy lern their lesson on the huge sales loss on the Ford Freestar v6 van? Yes, the V6 van was fuel efficient, but it was also junk. Going fuel efficient is not the only road to recovery. They need to make a sturdy vehicle that people will like.


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mercuryguymercuryguy - 7/10/2008 5:21:00 PM
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American Car companies are afraid to take a chance anymore. Wall Street and Marketing departments run these companies into the ground.

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mercuryguymercuryguy - 7/10/2008 5:37:04 PM
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Someone mentioned the Chrysler 300 had good reviews. I own one, and it is pure junk. It is underpowered and coughs going uphill in Pennsylvania. The dashboard is made of plastic and cardboard, the transmission is confused and bucks wildly. It always slams into 2ng gear with a bang that startles passengers. And this is a new car. There are so many sensors on the wheels, the car feels artificial in ride quality.

Chrysler should have considered a Diesel for the Imperial and 300. The 300 is not a very big car, but it is too heavy for a v6. The motor just constantly struggles. Chrysler says they are dropping planns for the Imperial. they believe they can't get that sized car to be efficient. Have thier engineers ever haerd of a guy named Rudolf Diesel? Why is it that Lexus can build a LS460 to be efficient. The LS460 is bigger than a Lincoln Town Car, but they put an 8-speed transmission in it. Why is it that American Car companies seem to be asleep at the wheel?


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bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/11/2008 11:36:54 AM
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The 300 was not junk. Sounds like you just want to bash Chrysler.


bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/11/2008 11:46:58 AM
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My neighbor has a v6 300 and i drove it. Runs good and they like it. I dont remember seeing any cardboard dash. Im more concerned about your credibility.


mercuryguymercuryguy - 7/10/2008 5:44:01 PM
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I'm simply amazed that Ford, GM and Chrysler have great looking concepts at the Detroit show, and then drop the ball on engines. They diply chrome-clad engines on stands everywhere, but they just seem to be clueless about real progress. Audi, VW, and Mercedes have terrific Diesels, BMW has very advanced motors. Ford has a great a great and very reliable transmission, but it was built for the 1970s as it only has 4 gears. Come on guys, get off the golf course! The Euro Diesel cars arcoming, and no one seems in management or engineering seems to notice or even care. If it was the 1950s, they would be scrambling to build secret test facilities and skunkworks.

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mercuryguymercuryguy - 7/11/2008 4:52:30 PM
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Cardboard and plastic underneath the dash. Nothing to tap a screw into to mount accessories. I know, most people here only look at aesthetics, does anyone ever pick up a screw driver? Try to do a robust mount to this dashboard, and then come back with your comments, if you even know how to.

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bfghemicudabfghemicuda - 7/23/2008 8:38:27 PM
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I have looked averywhere, can you be more clear on where exactly this so called cardboard is. I even used a screwdriver, still nothing.


EyecarehawaiiEyecarehawaii - 7/12/2008 1:07:59 AM
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The question is rhetorical - the keys are gone. The fault isn't entirely with the US car companies, however, as often a larger portion of their budget is programmed for worker benefits. They also have to contend with the tort happy US mentality and comply with government mandates in order to make their cars safer for irresponsible drivers. These changes often make the car less competitive in foreign markets.

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EyecarehawaiiEyecarehawaii - 7/12/2008 1:21:28 AM
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There was a comment above on paying taxes, and who should pay more (or less). I happen to think the fairest tax system is an across the bord tax on everything you buy at a fixed rate. No loopholes, no tax breaks, just one stabdard tax rate (say 19% like they have in Germany). If you're poor then you won't be buying high priced items so you'll pay less overall tax while if you're rich you'll probably be paying considerably more. Everyone pays the same rate. How much more fair can you get?
This brings me to a different topic based on the purported writings of Lord Woodhouselee (Alexander Tyler). How long do we have as a country if we continue with our mentality that our government is supposed to provide us more and more? He writes:

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier :

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship .'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'

During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;

2. from spiritual faith to great courage;

3. from courage to liberty;

4. from liberty to abundance;

5. from abundance to complacency;

6. from complacency to apathy;

7. from apathy to dependence;

8. from dependence back into bondage'


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ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 7/16/2008 2:53:15 AM
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it was i who commented on taxes. i do agree with you that a flat tax across the board is fairest. an acquaintance from russia says their system is a flat tax for everyone, at a mere 10% rate. and look at how fast their economy is growing!

on some of your other points, i beg to disagree.

"'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

"'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship .' "


don't overlook the fact that we are only an INdirect democracy, with a republican REPRESENTATIVE form of gov't.

AND, the ours is The Best Democracy that Money Can Buy. (see the book of that title.)

inevitably, the power goes to those willing to pump out the most money to BUY politicians who do them favors, at the expense of the general public.

this PURCHASE of influence happens both overtly, and covertly. how do you think the presidential elections were effectively STOLEN both in 2000 and 2004, with minimal protest?

since when was the Supreme Court empowered to "choose" a president? (to the GREAT DETRIMENT of the whole planet! imagine if Gore rather than Bush had been in charge since 2000? no war. decent energy policy that may've prevented our current outrageous energy and commodity prices. etc. etc.)

since when was the CEO of a corporation (Diebold) able to GUARANTEE an election of a certain candidate?)

further, in a society that gives corporations all the legal rights of REAL, living people, but only a fraction of the responsibilities, a few ruthless, IMMORTAL corporations will ultimately gain incredible wealth and power.

our foreign policies of the last century have largely been set to benefit multinational corporations. most especially, the Big Oilys and the "Defense" establishment. (wars are HIGHLY PROFITABLE! THINK ON THAT FOR AWHILE.)

if our auto industry is suffering, it is largely because the BIGGER FISH in the corporate world sees more and bigger profits elsewhere. and they don't give a damn if ALL industrial america is simply outsourced.





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