Are German Cars Off Their Prime?

He maybe correct cars are turning into commoditities especially now that china is in the game.

— kpaxx (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 2:13:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

i dont think german cars are slipping i just think they are on idle there needs to be improvement because the japs are catching up quickly

— vvelez (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 2:17:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

It depends on what aspects and terms you are discussing as 43LE mentioned. Design, performance: German. Value, reliability: Japanese. No flame war necessary. But also as he mentioned, the Japanese are catching up quick. Infiniti, notably, has made great strides in performance for example.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 2:52:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 11   

But apparently y'all think that anyone who purchase Lexuses would consider a Hyundai. Hmmmm, little double standard there, no?

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 3:26:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

I agree! There is a reason why Walmart exists and on that same note, a reason why people dont shop there...

— Threepoint1415926 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 4:01:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

bimmermike, you have a good point.

looking at the bigger picture, I think that there is a risk of seeing brands disapear in a near future, maybe even first domestic brands, here in the US. As far as europe, there is a much stronger resistance from each country to buy their homemade products. french buy french cars, german do the same. Lexus poor sales in europe is a prime example. As far as brands for "poor to average people", there is no doubt that their constant climb in quality, while keeping low pricing, especially the Koreans brands, are presenting a threat to Fiat, Peugeot, renault, even Volkswagen. Labor in Europe is costly, under Unions and such, which the Japanese and Korean can easily outproduce and undercost.
But I am more concern about that "drive by media" attitude. The "OMG the world is coming to an end" thing, like the global warming, the end of oil resources.etc...
This is it, the japanese have won over the world, the muslims are going to kill us all and the chinese are killing the planet... <sarcasm><truth>???

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 3:15:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

It's amazing that Kraut cars are still around. With Toyota and Lexus around I expected consumers to be smarter and dump these overpriced shitboxes.

— david989 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 3:29:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -15   

David989, you are making it so easy for me, i am going to post the exact same thing that I posted for lexusking, enjoy...

your ignorance leaves all of us speechless, I have the upmost respect for all car fans and enthusiasts, this is what makes this web site and so many others. To a certain extend I think this is why even car manufacturers push the envelop, for the cars nuts/gear heads. But you, alongside with Larry, and a couple of others "lexus fan" are just too much. Yes indeed you have the right to express your emotions, feelings and thoughts. But before you engage your fingers on the keyboard, please make sure your brain is in gear.

Or are you 15 years old and you like to start flame wars?
What is you point?
What do you know about Audi?
What do you know about Lexus?
Do you think Lexus is bettter because they sell more cars here in the US?
Or do you just consistently make things up?
Do you have any technician, engineering, even sales in the car industry, experience?
How many cars did you ever own?
What makes you and you other Lexus fan "compadres" such expert in bashing?

Have all of you a good day

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 3:38:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

houstoncutie
your "essay" is the truth nothing but the truth.
and you are making the perfect point, Lexus is not a automobile brand, it is the marketing branch of an automotive brand. The marketing base point of Lexus is the customer, this is extremely well done and this is definitively something that the german brands are trying to duplicate in their dealerships.
It does work extremely well in the US, i am not sure about everywhere else and will not have the pretention to make an assesment.

The debate would be; can the japanese brand increase their overall quality(driving dynamics, sportiness, true engineering innovations or inventions, substance, amongst other things) faster than the german can improve their reliability and customer service. If at all possible for both camps?

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 4:19:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Houstoncutie, please stop. You are a moron. Your comments are highly illustrative of why no serious car guy would even bother having a serious car conversation with a woman. You like Lexus, that's fine. But would you please die and go to hell already so that we can be spared of your all-caps typing, terrible spelling, and pre-school grammar.
If you think Lexus is so great, go ahead and drive a Lexus. We don't need you posting 3 page rants about how great Lexus is. Nobody cares what you think, but since you volunteered your opinion, you should know that what you think is stupid.
You keep talking about Lexus' and Toyota's revenue. This does not make Lexus cars prestigious. Your average person is a moron. You can't determine the quality of a product based on how many people buy it. The real measure is how much are people willing to pay for it. There is a reason why MB and BMW can get away with 'prestige pricing.' They admit to overcharging their customers, and still people buy the cars. Lexus could not pull this off, as the primary appeal of their product is value - not prestige. Lexus offers a very nice product for a reasonable price. The Germans offer what car guys really want - and they charge the hell out them for it.

Oh... you're a moron.

— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 5:13:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Houstoncutie2000 - Good points throughout this thread. Intelligent arguments delivered ina civil manner.
For autospies .. its a miracle indeed. Where are the usual mud slingers , trolls gone ???
Only "Sport" and "David989" so far ... :(
Agent009 .. i demand that this title be changed to something more incendiary...something more like ..
"BMW , Mercedes and VW are about to be made extinct by Chery and Hyundai" ..
Yup that sounds like a good start...

— izfuney (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 5:03:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

Germans are only leading the pack where it really matters, smart educated people who can afford and deserve to be in the cars that exude more than just luxury, but history and class - in cars that people want to buy, not just "need" to buy to have a mode of transport, cars like lexus and toyota are just cars that people will make due with, not cars that are envied. Classic marketing example, Lexus having to make the 600H to get its name out, once the genuine luxury brands Audi, BMW , Merc, Jaguar, promote this, that car will no longer be saught after to most. These historic brands will never fall out or be out of their game, They invented the game of luxury and sport class, and were the pioneers of the auto industry, Audi with one of the first Four wheel drive terains in a production car, Mercedes with its attention to detail in Luxury (its roots) and Bmw with its Road-race heritage. Please...

— EnvyofyouRS5 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 5:19:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

With a name like that are you a girl. If so I have respect for you, if not I pity you. On a serious note good arguments.

— mikeydred20 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 8:29:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

I had no idea Germany was such a strong exporter.
Bigger than China and the US!
That is a surprise.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 6:00:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Why do people talk about German Cars as if they are the be all and end all !!!!

I mean ITALIAN cars are the be all and end All.!!!! Ferrari !!, Lambo, Maserati, Lancia , Alfa Romeo...
They make sports cars that are gorgeous!!! and the best performers, not pretensious saloons.

And while we are at it lets here it for French cars, anybody who follows f1 / or WRC need to give it up for Renault , Citroen and Peugeout ( ok i know i spelt that wrong).

— izfuney (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:15:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

houstoncutie, why are you comparing Japan to ALL OF EUROPE? You don't think EUROPE has a bigger economy than Japan? LOL!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 9:33:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

houstoncutie2000: PLEASE DROP DEAD.

— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 6:27:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

You know... I'm sorry. Drop dead is too far. It's just that you're making me upset and i tend to get extreme when that happens. This is a car lover's forum, and i guess that good conversation and debate is what we're really here for. I take it back. Don't drop dead.

We get it: Lexus makes a fine car. But you have to admit that their whole process is rather sterile and artificial. This is what makes Lexus unappealing to car guys like me. At the German companies like BMW or Porsche, you have engineers who love driving and racing and building great cars. They get ideas for great cars and they build them. Lexus on the other hand watches to see what market segments are profitable, then they build a car to get in on the action. I personally don't want a car from a company like that. I'm a 'first adopter.' I want the genuine article.
As much as I bash Lexus, i must admit that i am considering buying a Lexus. But that is only because my budget is tight. What i really want is a BMW or Benz, but i know that i can't afford to repair those cars. Lexus is a good compromise for people who want the experience of the German cars for a more reasonable price. But let's not forget the fact: The German car is what i really want. If money were no object, I would not even consider Lexus. I will say it again: Lexus makes nice cars, but the main attraction is value, not prestige.
When you will pay more than what a car is actually worth for a less than perfectly reliable vehicle - that vehicle is prestigious. Despite the spotty reliability of severely overcomplicated German cars, people still value them above all others.

— pushrod27 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 6:48:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10   

well said pushrod27
and well said Sport

Why do people buy Ferraris?, they are extremely expensive to buy, maintain, repair. They rarely present high level of innovations, but are well engineered to drive amazingly and look beautiful...and expensive.
And people buy them, they could buy anything else, they migh even have a Lexus or a Prius in their garage, so why do they buy them?
The prestige, the history, the exclusivity, the heritage, the tradition.
Well to a CERTAIN extend it is the same for the german luxury cars. You don't need a M-B, a BMW or an Audi to go to work, you WANT it. Are they too expensive for what they are compared to the 3 japanese marketing branch? You bet they are. But people are still buying them. Are 100's of thousand people every year that dumb? Probably not, they want one of those german car because of heritage, history, passion.
Well besides the mooches that try to get into the luxury segment when they should not...

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:09:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Isn't Porsche the most profitable car company in the world. Ridiculous article.

— supermoto (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:25:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

Houstoncutie....Are you just searching "Lexus achievements" from google? Cause frankly the information you are providing are useless.

— Treeman888 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:28:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

Luxury to me, is not buying a rebadged Toyota Camry or Avalon (aka Lexus). It's nothing but a poor mans luxury car.

— CrunkieBrewster (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:30:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 9   

The Germans just need to get back to basics and stick to the priorities that got their cars notoriety around the world. They do that and all will be well.

They keep turning cars like BMW's that were once the Ultimate Driving Machines into drive by wire art projects with Playstation controls it will be over.

— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:34:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Lexus doesn't exist in the world of car enthusiasts. Period.

— Star (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:43:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Despite all this there is one thing wrong with this topic, a lack of coherence and accuracy of information. There are a lot of statements without sufficient information to really make any of it persuasive unless you cannot think for yourself and believe everything you read without some skepticism. This section bugs the piss out of me, “While Volkswagen closed its only factory in the US, Toyota’s Lexus became the best-selling luxury car there. BMW’s joint-venture partner, Brilliance China Automotive Holdings, is already challenging Volkswagen and Adam Opel, General Motors’ German unit, with its own Zhonghua brand. German newspapers have dubbed it the ‘Cheap BMW’ and ‘Mao Mercedes’.” I wonder what the writer meant “Toyota’s Lexus became the best-selling luxury car there”? Is he implying to the United States or China because the beginning part of the sentence he talks about Volkswagen closing a US factory but the next sentence goes into details with German/Chinese partnerships in, of course, the Chinese market.

Another problem is if the write is implying Lexus’ success in China, based on the information from the writer, why could Lexus succeed despite the supposed need of small, inexpensive and fuel efficient cars when the BMW is not too different? I thought Volkswagen was working on an inexpensive cars for the world market.

Supposedly Becker provides 'dense statistics and market analysis' but where is it? How can you state that but not provide any evidence? "Yes, the man told me that girl shot him. No, I myself did not see the girl shoot the man but I believe him. He's a priest for Godsakes! A man of his position never lies. She is guilty!" We all know too well Christian and Catholic priests and pastors can commit sins such as speaking lies.

Could Becker be a trusted source? I never heard of the guy. If there were other analysts who came to the same conclusion with credible resources then I may take it for what it is worth.

So German cars are too big, too costly and too polluting? Sounds like a generalization to me. Not all of Volkswagens and Porsche's offerings are big and too polluting. I thought the Porsche 911 Turbo is the cleanest super car on the market, period. Pricey, maybe, depending on whose perspective you ask for. I can see this big, costly, polluting argument more directly at Audi, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW but I doubt you have to be successful in the Chinese market where most of the cars that are sold there are cheap city cars and what gaps they will fill are just minor. Maybe Lexus does have a strong holding on the luxury market China but nothing lasts forever whether it is success and failure so there is always a chance for the German manufacturers to flourish.

For example, Lexus wasn’t exactly the hottest car on the market in 1989 unless you are a Lexus cornball who believes that once they started on the market they were instantly golden. If you’re honest with yourself, you know that Lexus did not light everyone’s fire

— richardp996 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:43:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

1evlaudi that was a gre

— Cpt72krk (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:53:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

1evlaudi that was a great post took the words right out of my mouth

Why do people buy Ferraris?, they are extremely expensive to buy, maintain, repair. They rarely present high level of innovations, but are well engineered to drive amazingly and look beautiful...and expensive.
And people buy them, they could buy anything else, they migh even have a Lexus or a Prius in their garage, so why do they buy them?
The prestige, the history, the exclusivity, the heritage, the tradition.
Well to a CERTAIN extend it is the same for the german luxury cars. You don't need a M-B, a BMW or an Audi to go to work, you WANT it. Are they too expensive for what they are compared to the 3 japanese marketing branch? You bet they are. But people are still buying them. Are 100's of thousand people every year that dumb? Probably not, they want one of those german car because of heritage, history, passion.
Well besides the mooches that try to get into the luxury segment when they should not...

— Cpt72krk (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 7:57:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

houstoncutie2000 all somebody needs to do is test drive a Lexus and then a BMW or Mercedes and everything becomes clear. Lexus is just not in the same league as the big boys.

— Star (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 8:37:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

houston.....we have a problem.
Autospies has been invaded by a Lexus virus, this is a spam alert. do not say anything bad about Lexus or the "cutie virus" will take over the content of your post and maybe the entire blog.
You will conceed and agree that Lexus is the best vehicle in the world or you will be submerged by awards and such until you puke on your keyboard.
<sarcasm>

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 8:39:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

May 9, 2007
INGOLSTADT, Germany - Audi has received the “Engine of the Year” crown for the third year in succession. A jury of more than 60 recognized trade journalists from 30 countries named the 2.0 TFSI engine the winner of the prestigious award.
The jury opined that this impressive four-cylinder unit is the dominant engine in its class, giving the verdict that it is “not only incredibly versatile and clever, but also remarkably powerful”. The 2.0 TFSI combines vigorous pulling power with particularly high everyday suitability. The jury also observed that Audi has demonstrated the best engine development in the 1.8-litre to 2.0-litre segment this year, too.
The 2.0 TFSI unit was initially fitted in the Audi A3 and now also features in the A4 and 2008 TT model lines. This Audi engine is available in output versions ranging from 200 hp to 265 hp, from the exceptionally fuel-efficient A3 and A4 2.0 TFSI to the particularly sporty Audi S3 (S3 not available in North America).

Apr 5, 2007
AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) today released the results of their latest study measuring the effectiveness of head restraint systems in a rear-end crash. Audi had three models rated as “good” by the IIHS; the A4, S4, and A6, and is one of only two manufacturers to have achieved this. Audi also is the only manufacturer to have three models rated “good” in head restraint tests as well as two “Top Safety Picks” from the IIHS in 2007.

In the test, the IIHS simulates a rear-end collision by a vehicle traveling 20 mph. The IIHS then rates the effectiveness of the head restraints in preventing whip-lash injuries.

“The geometry of a head restraint has to be adequate, and so do the stiffness characteristics of the vehicle seat,” said Institute president Adrian Lund. “Then the seat and head restraint have to work in concert to support an occupant’s neck and head.”

This is just the latest safety award for the A4 and A6 model line. The IIHS also rated the A4 and A6 models as “Top Safety Picks” in 2007 for their results in both frontal-offset and side collision tests.

Apr 5, 2007
At a press conference presented by the MIDWAY GROUP and hosted by the New York International Auto Show at the Jacob Javitz Centre in Manhattan, New York, the Audi TT was declared the 2007 World Car Design of the Year.

The Audi TT was chosen from an initial entry list of twenty-eight (28) contenders nominated by World Car jurors from 22 countries throughout the world.

Style sells. No matter how rational a buyer's approach to a new car purchase may be, the ultimate decision is typically based as much on emotion as on reason – perhaps more so. Nothing evokes that emotion more strongly than the vehicle's appearance, be it a sports car or a minivan or anything in between. Good design knows no boundaries or borders, which is why we established an award for the World Car Design of the Year in 2005.

The World Car Design of the Year cate

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 9:00:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8   

hey houston cutie! should I continue? cuz if I go all out of whack like you did, say back to 1989, I will flood this blog beyond your wildest imagination. If you kick the ants nest, expect them to crawl up...your know what

— 1evlaudi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 9:04:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

houston, your lips keep flapping but there is nothing of substance coming out...you sound like a corporate cheerleader for Toyota...is this the schpeel you give the factory workers every morning as they start their shift...your rantings bore me as much as their cars...

— ICON (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 9:35:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

to answer the question...nope.

german cars remain the choice of upper-income people the world over.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 9:36:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

PLEASE, houstoncutie, I beg of you, you're driving me insane. You must SHUT UP!

1. Your posts take up too much space, but nobody reads them, because nobody cares.

2. You argue everyone's points mercilessly, only to ignore them when they're right.

3. What are you in this for? Nobody argues like you do, posting dozens of quotes from around the web and unimpressive reliability achievements and all the things that make us think Lexus is even more clinical and uncreative. You're not selling us cars. We're not agreeing with you. WE buy the cars we buy for OUR OWN reasons. You do the same! Why can't you realize that? I can't even express the incredible anger I feel towards you right now, so I'm not going to. There would be too many exclamation points.

4. WE LIKE LEXUS, BUT YOU'RE MAKING US ALL HATE IT. We also hate you, in case you haven't realized. GO AWAY. Go to the Lexus forums and tell THEM how much you love those cars. And their wow, breath-taking awards that nobody cares about.

5. SHUT UP!!!! STFU!!!! GET OFF THIS WEBSITE!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 9:45:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

In 1989 Lexus completely copied Mercedes designs. They have no imagination where is Mercedes and BMW invent the trend of design. They just sit back and copycat. If they didn't have the quality no one would buy them, so that was their focus. They really have no history and are chromed up, high gloss painted Toyota's. Mercedes and BMW have a long history of major automotive accomplishments and innovations...

— Sedecrem (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2007 10:34:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Thank you Nicad for the warning of impending doom in the USA due to our "insane economical polisies". Always appreciate hearing from an econimcal expurt like you.

— dusty (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2007 12:01:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Spoken by someone that has no idea what he is talking about--talk cars not politics!

— gbrown1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2007 8:32:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

What about the Japanese and Toyota's recent quality concerns? Are the Japanese cars off there prime? I'm beginning to think this article was posted just stoke the fires and start a flame war.

— Auto_expert (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2007 10:06:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

Houstoncutie-- the guys at Lexus just called & said they decided to transfer you back over to the Scion division, that you were creating too much of a stir for their calm sedate brand.

— mscottc1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2007 5:03:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

Pardon me as I shoot myself in the head....bang.

— AntiHybrid (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2007 7:13:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

does houston have a job or a life? who has time to type this much blather?

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2007 8:39:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

LOL! Agent 009 pulled a fast one on everyone!

the threads hiliting german cars BARELY stir ANY interest, except from the euro fans. (OTHER euro brands stir even LESS)

the threads mentioning toyota and esp. lexus seem to get the BULK of the traffic, with as much or MORE euro fans as asian fans butting in.

here FINALLY, a thread mentioning german cars and we get the MOST posts ever!
good job, 009! title engineering with MAXIMUM effectiveness!

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2007 5:28:36 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

LOL. Houstoncutie, you're having way too much fun here! (You're gonna cause somebody to bust a vein.)

— dusty (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2007 10:36:09 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

nicad,
I hope so, because if the US market goes down, it's bringing the rest of the planet with it...and will open up opportunities for me to snap up some more real estate. China relies on N.America, Germany relies on N.America, Japan relies on N.America (although apparently Japan exports more to China now).

Anyway, it's good to hear another voice from Germany saying the answer is to burn LESS oil, as opposed to burning more, and that they can't rely on image alone.

xfire,
Americans suck so bad that Buick finished only behind Lexus in JD Powers (or one of those publications). Yeah, whatever.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/1/2007 3:53:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Wasn't this a monty python skit?
Mrs Smoker: Real men drive German cars!
Mrs Non-Smoker: Why did you buy a Korean car?
Mrs Smoker: IT WAS A BARGAIN!

Just buy the damn car or don't.
show it off to your "partner"/slaves/buddy/special lady/BFF. Tell them why it is so superior and why you are so superior for finding it in this world of cheap deceptive imitations of everything German.

What does snoring sound like in German?

— dodgedart (View Profile)

Posted on 9/2/2007 2:10:01 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lexus_Admirer,
Get some medication.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/5/2007 12:16:57 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0