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AutoSpies.com proves Saab XWD out guns Audi's Quattro and Porsche Turbo AWD?
During the press presentation this week of the 2008 Saab 9-3, they revealed their new Cross wheel drive system (XWD) that will be coming to your dealership in early 2008.

The presentation really got interesting when one of their product manager's (Andreas Andersson) who has extensive race and AWD experience, spewed out that the new system was more effective than Audi's quattro and beat a Porsche 911 Turbo through the cones, in the test runs!

He then showed us the final slides with the test data and then gave us all a taste on how the new system performs on a closed 'wet grass' course.

Saab XWD is a fully automatic, on-demand system capable of sending up to 100 percent of engine torque to the front or rear wheels. While offering sure-footed handling in low-grip conditions, its sophisticated operation also adds a further sporty dimension to the driving experience in all road conditions. Fine balancing of the drive torque between the front and rear axles raises the threshold at which ESP throttle and braking interventions are triggered, providing more scope for closer driver involvement.

The system is governed by its own electronic control unit, which functions in harmony with the engine, transmission and ABS/ESP control modules. The hardware consists of a Power Take-off Unit (PTU) in the front final-drive that transmits engine torque through a prop-shaft to the Rear Drive Module (RDM). This incorporates a Torque Transfer Device (TTD) and an optional electronically-controlled Limited Slip Differential (eLSD). Both are wet, multi-plate clutch units from Haldex.

At take-off, the TTD is initially activated when the clutch plates are forced together under hydraulic pressure, thereby engaging the RDM. This pre-emptive function is a valuable improvement in current technology, which requires the detection of wheel slip before the TTD is activated. For the driver, the enhanced functionality gives maximum traction immediately for smooth, strong acceleration from rest without hesitation.

On the open road, drive torque is seamlessly and continuously varied between the axles by the control of a valve in the TTD, which increases or reduces the pressure on the wet clutch plates. When cornering, Saab XWD rewards the driver by providing enhanced, more finely balanced chassis dynamics. Data from the vehicle’s ABS/ESP sensors – measuring wheel speed, yaw rate and steering angle – is utilized and careful programming of Saab XWD enables the application of rear drive to balance oversteer and understeer characteristics, improving stability and road-holding.

In highway cruising conditions, when traction or optimum grip is not an issue, only 5 percent to 10 percent of engine torque is typically transmitted to the rear wheels. This helps provide the driver with a measure of greater stability, while helping save fuel.

The “icing on the cake” with Saab XWD is the eLSD option. In this segment of the market, it is the first application of an electronically-controlled, multi-plate limited-slip differential in combination with all-wheel-drive. It is installed alongside the RDM and operates via pressurized clutch plates on a principle similar to the larger TTD. In icy or wet split-friction conditions, for example, it uses input from the rear-wheel speed sensors and can transfer up to 40 percent of torque between the drive shafts, sending it to the wheel that has more grip.

The eLSD also gives the driver enhanced control when cornering hard or completing a high speed maneuver, such as a lane change, by momentarily applying more or less torque to either of the wheels to help the rear of the car more closely follow the direction of the front wheels. In this way, the eLSD can keep the car better balanced and more tightly controlled without requiring “outside” intervention from electronic stability aides.

Installation of Saab XWD includes the fitment of a new rear sub-frame to carry the RDM, revised rear suspension geometry and new wheel hubs for the drive shafts. The three-piece prop-shaft runs through two bearings with constant velocity joints for smooth running with minimal “wind-up.” Wheelbase and rear track dimensions are unaltered from front-wheel-drive models.

Take a look at the slides for yourself and let us know if you believe, that what he said could be true and it has obsoleted Audi's famous Quattro system.


AutoSpies.com proves Saab XWD out guns Audi's Quattro and Porsche Turbo AWD?



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rg12345rg12345 - 9/3/2007 6:35:53 PM
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Autospies proves? Did u do the test yourself ?? Did you do anything at all to prove something?

Go out there and buy/rent 3 cars, test them on dry, wet, snow and come back with that title. Please.


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EnvyofyouRS5EnvyofyouRS5 - 9/3/2007 7:39:43 PM
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I dont know about outdoing a company that had almost near prefected the 4-wheel scene in the 80's with its 4 circled emblem, and outdoing PORSCHE the company who's rumored to have started Production AWD in the early 1900's. Subaru may have something here with its XWD system, in distributing torque to a specific wheel that uses more power, but it does not have the fun factor of driving Audi or Porsche in AWD conditions or NON AWD conditions.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/3/2007 11:15:06 PMView My AgentSpace
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This is Saab, not Subaru. Both otherwise I agree.


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 9/3/2007 9:40:39 PM
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stupid comments...

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/3/2007 11:16:53 PMView My AgentSpace
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Audi sells about 85% of the amount of cars BMW sells, if not more.

Both of BMW's models over $100K (of which they have the same amount as Audi- two) are considered limited edition and sell in very small numbers. However, none of them have ever been in as high demand as the R8.

If quattro is so terrible, Bimmer, please tell me where that leaves BMW's pathetic xDrive.


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1evlaudi1evlaudi - 9/4/2007 1:07:33 AMView My AgentSpace
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well well, it seems that some BMW fans are no better, or not older, than some Lexus fans. so Mr amazingBreakMy"W"allet, here it is, just for you and all other ignorants fools out there;

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=3280&page_number=9

And like I said before, before engaging your fingers on the keyboard, make sure that your brain is in gear.
Make sure that if you are going to throw a stone at somebody, you are stating a fact and not being disillusional. If not somebody is going to throw a bigger stone at you.

for good measure Iam going to post again this link, you tell me how good your BMW's are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zfKRdgoRo4&mode=related&search=

By the same token, after seeing the effectiveness of the quattro, I don't want people to think that the quattro can't be fun. Oh, mind you it's a diesel!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sghBnlInfIA


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EnnNorakEnnNorak - 9/3/2007 8:53:23 PM
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Nothing beats the instant response of the Torsen center differential used by Audi in the A4, A6 and A8. The Torsen is a purely mechanical device. The A3 has a cheaper AWD system without a Torsen differential yet Audi still calls it Quattro.

Electronically controlled wet clutches are OK and wet clutches last a lot longer than dry clutches, but they are still subject to some response time which is an issue where road conditions change from one millisecond to the next when driving at high speed through mountains with winter black ice for example.

Saab is just doing some marketing hype without disclosing response times. Saab is obviously too poor to buy the more expensive Torsen differential.

There is a better AWD system in the same price range as the top Saab 3 model and that is the Subaru WRX STI it's even better thatn Audi's Quattro because the driver can control the center differential and the rear diff is a Torsen and the front is some other kind of LSD (I forget which type).


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Agent001Agent001 - 9/3/2007 9:04:21 PMView My AgentSpace
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Their product managers told us this employs the most advanced new generation Haldex 4 system, which supposedly is the most sophisticated on the market.

001



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/3/2007 11:17:44 PMView My AgentSpace
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Agent001, don't be so impressionable. They're trying to sell you the thing!


Agent001Agent001 - 9/3/2007 11:30:50 PMView My AgentSpace
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Not impressionable...just reporting what they told us

We report, you decide.

001



ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 9/3/2007 9:40:08 PM
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I'll stick with my quattro. I didn't think that the saab guy would say its not as good. Imagine the response from the Saab if he said its not as good. As Hyundai would say... DUH!!!

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IhavearedS2000IhavearedS2000 - 9/3/2007 9:56:20 PM
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Sounds like SH-AWD but not as good...

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Matthew1Matthew1 - 9/4/2007 12:02:36 AM
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So the consensus here is really that it can't be any good, it's a SAAB.

The fact is, this is a BRAND NEW Haldex 4WD system, encompassing the latest technology. The new 9-3 is the first car to benefit from this system.

Your argument is flawed.

Basically you guys are saying Haldex can't cut it with the 'big boys', when in reality they too have working relationships with Haldex as suppliers of their drive-trains.

The 9-3 had a responsive chassis to begin with, this new 4WD system only increases its talents.

(Oh, and the history of SAAB comparing itself to Porsche is not new, I remember when the first-gen 9-3 Viggen came out, it was claimed that it could go from 80-120km/h quicker than a 911 Turbo).


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I95SPEEDINGTICKETSI95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 9/4/2007 12:21:30 AM
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Agent 001

Do you actually know ANYTHING about vehicles other than the Marketing Drivel you get from Press Launches ?


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Agent001Agent001 - 9/4/2007 12:28:50 AMView My AgentSpace
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Considering there is only one XWD Saab in the USA right now and I drove in it, how much more could anyone know about it than me?

001



I95SPEEDINGTICKETSI95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 9/4/2007 12:43:47 AM
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"Drove in it" or "Drove it"

Because there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE you see. Any vehicle with a Professional Test Driver with lots of time in it can easily convince an amateur Passenger that said vehicle is a dream to Pilot.


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1evlaudi1evlaudi - 9/4/2007 1:27:25 AMView My AgentSpace
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absolutely correct I95

couple of friends went to new Cayenne training in mexico a while back, were driven in it by race drivers, comparing it to BMW and Q7 and the likes, all came saying "oh this B.. is a piece of ..., the Q7 is worthless, blablabla." so I asked them, "what was the wheels size in the Q7?" they said 18'. I asked"what about the Cayenne?" answer: "oh man, it had those nice 20's on it, and the air suspension too".

Too easy, and total BS

so we will all wait to have a few car magazines drive IN IT, and run it through it's paces, and a few comparaisons with other AWD sedan, and then we will make our opinion and decision. But right now agent 001, no offense, you sound like propanganda.

good try though



SilverAeroSilverAero - 9/4/2007 1:28:44 AM
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Doesn't matter if its true. I'm gonna be laughing at somebody either way.

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1evlaudi1evlaudi - 9/4/2007 1:35:43 AMView My AgentSpace
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GUYS GUYS!!!

seriously you all have to check out this youtube video, if you like cars, any cars.
It's short but, man, looks fun, and I don't think the Saab can do this...LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDNwvsVxW4s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egermancarblog%2Ecom%2F


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cs4444cs4444 - 9/6/2007 10:55:56 AMView My AgentSpace
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every video you post is lame


528i528i - 9/4/2007 1:46:43 AMView My AgentSpace
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Ok so which one is better 4matic, Quattro or BMW's xdrive.

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xspalexspale - 9/4/2007 3:33:53 AM
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Just marketing! They need attention and here we go XWD. Sure.
If they can beat STI in slalom on slippery road I will cut my hands, lol.
Like recent riduculus AUDI campagne with rally car from 1984.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8wEysKpF5I



JUGNUJUGNU - 9/4/2007 8:24:13 AMView My AgentSpace
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Subaru's Symmetrical AWD is the Best.

JUGNU



gryphongryphon - 9/4/2007 7:00:08 AM
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Agent001,

Thanks for posting the update. Once the XWD 9-3 debuts officially and can be test-driven, people will be able to see that it outperforms the BMW xdrive and Audi quattro.

What I am really interested in now is the special order Turbo X. Come on Frankfurt!


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IhavearedS2000IhavearedS2000 - 9/4/2007 8:52:14 AM
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SH-AWD is the best, it's just in the wrong cars...

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dumpstydumpsty - 9/4/2007 9:21:43 AM
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Why would anybody even accept Saab's test results/claims anyway? If Audi, BMW, etc. did the same thing, we as avid enthusiasts, should not take "their" results as fact also. Each automakers results will be biased toward their own product.

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r_driver04r_driver04 - 9/4/2007 11:54:53 AM
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Subaru AWD is the best most reliable system out there. Hands down.

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motomoto - 9/4/2007 1:32:11 PM
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Let's get this straight:

- Honda's SH-AWD is a FWD system that electronically engages a clutch to drive the rear wheels AFTER slip is detected -- it provides superior efficiency, and hence better fuel economy for most driving.

- Haldex (used by transverse-engine VAG automobiles, Saab, etc), as well as AWD systems by BMW, Porsche, Subaru, and Mitubishi, are all variations of an electronically-controlled clutch system that always engages some torque to the rear wheels but must react electronically (with measurable lag time) to the wheel speed sensor data.

- Audi's Quattro system with Torsen differentials is a full-time AWD system that drives all wheels at all times, with no electronics necessary to re-apportion torque to any wheel. The advantage is stability and traction, the disadvantage is that it weighs a bit more than the electronic systems and fuel economy is impacted since the system is engaged even when it is not required.


So, I'm not sure what you all are arguing about - there is no "best" AWD system. Each has slightly different tuning to make it more appropriate for the vehicle, and each has advantages and disadvantages. The only major difference is that Audi gives you full-time AWD without reliance on electronics, which are the weak point of all other systems.

Some people don't need AWD at all, others do. If you seriously need AWD most of the time, then any of the electrically-controlled ones will work nicely. But most expert drivers agree that Audi's quattro system has proven to be a cut above. If you really need to go off-roading, then you should start reading truck magazines.


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ShredmoShredmo - 9/4/2007 3:04:26 PM
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Subaru uses Haldex in what vehicle? Their automatics use an electronically controlled AWD (non haldex), but the manuals are not electronically controlled.

Audi's A3 uses a Haldex system FYI, The A4 and up does not.



motomoto - 9/4/2007 10:47:21 PM
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Shredmo, I'm sorry i wasn't clear. Haldex is similar in concept to Subaru's and the rest of the other AWD systems -- but yes, very different in execution and packaging. Subaru does offer a very nice symmetric layout -- the horizontally opposed engine lends a nice low CG, at the expense of being very nose-heavy.

S2000, i probably should have lumped Honda's system in with the rest of the electronic center clutch-pack crowd, but my experience with early versions of the SH-AWD were less than impressive. Perhaps Honda has dialed in a lot more rear torque bias since the last one i tested. I don't believe for a minute that Honda's system is significantly better than the Haldex system. They are both fine for 99% of the on-road driving that anyone would do in the real world.

For those who don't know: full-time mechanical engagement is ALWAYS faster to adapt than an electronic system. It fundamentally must be so, even if you have an onboard Cray supercomputer calculating relative wheel slip for you. Whether that real-time torque application advantage matters in the driving you do is another question, and there are many other aspects to all the systems and automobiles to consider before making a choice. If you don't drive in wet or icy conditions every year, then you probably wouldn't notice the difference between one system and the next.

Thierry -- I cannot agree with you more about the degradation of this site. I used to just read the auto news, but I became so tired of reading trash on this site, all laden with opinions and short on facts, I actually started to post occasional insightful comments. It's no use -- it seems idiots outnumber objective auto enthusiasts 10 to 1. The shouting of shallow badge whores is getting pathetic. If this site wishes to remain relevant, it had better kill off some of the riff-raff here who post positive comments only about their favorite brand and attack everyone else without reason or logic.



IhavearedS2000IhavearedS2000 - 9/4/2007 2:27:10 PM
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Honda's SH-AWD does more than just engage after slip is detected, in fact it is proactive not reactive - among other things it drives the inside rear wheel when cornering - something much more efficient than braking...again the system has not had a chance to shine due to poor marketing and using the system on SUV's and luxury cars instead of sport sedans. Wait till it's offered across the Acura line (including the upcoming TSX and TL) and it will sure do better than SAAB.

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motomoto - 9/6/2007 6:02:27 PM
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impossible -- there is no such thing as a "proactive" AWD system. no system can anticipate wheel slip before it happens. Also, driving the inside wheel is pointless if there is not enough weight or traction at the inside wheel for it to transfer power to the road. This is precisely WHY SH-AWD is not deployed on sports cars like the S2000. It wouldn't benefit the S2000!


ThierryHenry14ThierryHenry14 - 9/4/2007 7:06:02 PM
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Now why does such a worthless article about a company's claims get Autospies to say it out guns quattro and Porsche AWD???

This site is getting less and less worthy, and more about stirring up arguements...


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IhavearedS2000IhavearedS2000 - 9/4/2007 11:12:48 PM
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I agree that SH-AWD is not used to it's true potential, but it's design and concept are elegant solutions to the 'boring' AWD understeer frequently complained about in Audis.

I believe and hope that when Acura chooses to use the next generation of SH-AWD that it will have more of a rear wheel bias, the 70% that can go to the rear is fine (of that 70% - 100% can go to either right or left rear wheel depending on driving circumstances). But like many Honda technological innovations, if you drive the car to the market - it's not gonna feel that special, only when you are at 10/10ths does it make sense. Unfortunately, the MDX, RDX, and RL just don't fit into that mode of driving very often.


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motomoto - 9/6/2007 6:19:42 PM
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no disageement here on SH-AWD not living up to its potential, but don't forget that Acura are all front-heavy understeering vehicles too -- and there's nothing SH-AWD can do that Quattro cannot. NO driver that I have ever encountered considers an Audi any more boring than an Acura. Both are excellent vehicles, neither are designed to be tail-happy sports cars. And that's OKAY! It is a very small percentage of the population that actually enjoys oversteer: drift racers, rally drivers, and pre-996 Porsche 911 drivers.

Note also that 70% torque to the rear wheels is pointless unless 70% of the vehicle's mass is back there. My guess is that the only road-legal Honda automobile that accelerated hard enough to transfer than much weight to the aft tires was the NSX.



8valvegrowl8valvegrowl - 9/5/2007 9:35:08 AM
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I agree that people should realize this is marketing, and marketing will claim their x, y, and z is superior to competitors a, b and c. Take it with a grain of salt.

That being said, I am a Saab nut and I'm pretty excited by this system. I'd say it's closest relatives are the Nissan ATTESA E-TS Pro system (ala Skyline GT-R R34) or the Mitsubishi S-AYC (Lancer Evo 7+). This is pretty groundbreaking stuff to be used on a 30K sport/luxury car. I think for most conditions this AWD system will prove to be very rewarding and stable.

I've driven plenty of Audi quattros, 1st gen through 4th gen (including Haldex based systems), the true quattros have great grip, but they steer like pigs. 1st gen Haldex (Volvo S60R, Audi TT/A3, VeeDub 4Motion/R32) isn't much better.

I haven't driven SH-AWD, but I've always like it's concept and I think it will be a great system if/when they put it on performance oriented cars.

I have a Subaru Legacy AWD, Subie AWD is great and is certainly tough and reliable. It is hardly sporty though. Yes I have driven WRX's....the power improves things, but they are about grip, not necessarily finesse.

Saab needs AWD...they make fantastic engines that are starting to be let down by the FWD layout (FWD was fine for their sub 200HP turbo fours of yore, but no more).

All AWD systems have benefits and disadvantages...I think the very best electronic AWD systems aim to add finesse and grip to the equation, which for someone who likes to drive is always a nice thing.

I can't wait to scare the car salesman on the test drive when they come out.


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