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BMW Leads The Way In Latest Brand Quality Survey-VW Takes Corporate Honors

Agent009 submitted on 5/28/2008 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 11:40:35 AM

86 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.msnbc.msn.com

Luxury brands once again dominated an annual U.

S. automobile quality survey by a California research company, but total quality dropped for the first time in four years, the company said.

BMW led all brands in the results released Wednesday by San Diego-based Strategic Vision Inc., followed closely by Hummer, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Land Rover, Cadillac, Lincoln and Volkswagen.

Volkswagen AG, which includes Audi, led all corporations with a total quality index score of 892 out of 1,000 possible points. General Motors Corp. finished second as a corporation at 867, followed by Ford Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co., which tied for third at 862. Toyota Motor Corp. finished fifth, at the industry average of 860.

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Weird that Hummer was that high on the list.

Good for them I guess.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 11:57:31 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

if hummers can drive across deserts and survive combat in wars, they must be pretty reliable.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:08:17 PM | | Votes: 1

That would be the original Hummer made by American General and sold for a short time as the H1. The H2 and H3 are actually based on GM platforms (Trailblazer and Canyon) and are nothing more than reskined variants.
— jeffy210 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:54:33 PM | | Votes: 4

MichaelTaylor - LOL! Funny. I agree. The need to bomb the toyota landcrusier just for the looks of it
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:59:26 PM | | Votes: 2

jeffy210,

The H2 is on a very modified GMT800 chassis and is assembled by American General in their factory using their workers, GM pretty much just owns the name. The H3 is more or less a GMT355 Colorado but with much more minor tweaks. The H2 is NOT just a gussied up Tahoe as some would have you believe.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 3:36:35 PM | | Votes: 2

91z4me, thank you. I thought something was a bit off when I typed that.
— jeffy210 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 6:12:43 PM | | Votes: 1

This is a very weird list. Always trust someone like J.D. Power and Consumer Reports
— silver1 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 8:16:53 PM | | Votes: 2

Just because Lexus isn't on-top silver1?
— Kinger (View Profile)

Posted on 5/30/2008 4:42:37 AM | | Votes: 0

Michael Taylor. I can't believe I'm doing this but I do agree. The landcruiser is a hell of a vehicle. When I was stationed in the dessert our squad had a new tahoe, 1 year old suburban, an old jeep cheroke ( the boxy smaller one) and an older land cruiser. the burban and tahoe were in the shop all of the time and the a/c didn't work. Also had electrical problems. the jeep didn't have a/c, but was fun because it was a 5 speed, but the land cruiser was the oldest and everything worked, ice cold A/C and cd player worked. we fought over the land cruiser all the time. the whole time I was there it never had to go to motor pool for any repairs.
— 85bmw745i (View Profile)

Posted on 5/30/2008 6:26:25 PM | | Votes: 2

And michael what the hell do you mean when you say or possibly a version of the lx570. the land cruiser and the lx are the same damn thing, so why the hell would the military need the couple of extra goodies on the lx570? luxury is not an option in the field of battle. I bet you honestly think the LX570 and the land cruiser are totally different don't you.
— 85bmw745i (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 8:40:23 AM | | Votes: 0

disregard my last post. Why would you say and cruiser or possibly the LX570. they are almost an exact carbon copy of eachother, except the LX probably has one or two extras along with a different grill. Thats all our gov't needs is to spend more unnecessary money, and for what? the thing would be stripped down for military use so then there would be no difference at all between the two, and luxury is not an option or a necessity in the field of battle. I served 7 years by the way.
— 85bmw745i (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 8:44:01 AM | | Votes: 1

And newer doesn't mean better Off Road. My 02 discovery series 2 would run circles (slow ones) around almost anything "newer". Yes the Land cruiser is very capable and much more reliable than any crap we have in the military, but don't act like it's the best thing in the world because it's not. I'd really like to see the unimog in our military. Problem is we gotta keep our vehicles American. If we went to war with japan, how would we get parts and vehicles from toyota then?
— 85bmw745i (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 8:47:22 AM | | Votes: 1

You can't add 2000lbs. of armor plate to a Toyota...just can't handle it.
— BostonBiosafety (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 9:26:37 PM | | Votes: 0

no surprise about bmw as a brand. haven't had a single problem with any of the 3 i've owned in the last 4 years.

and the s-class at the top of the luxury car model heap makes complete sense. and they should be there considering the average s-class rolls out at over $100k.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:05:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Hummer should not be that high. GM sucks the big one right now. Congratulations to BMW, but look at Audi already seeing the benefits of being owned by Volkswagen.

— GermanNut (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:06:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Already seeing the benefits? I beleive they have been owned by VW for quite some time. They are are starting to become more reliable, but that is not because of VW. VW will start seeing the benefits of Porsche.
— nicecars (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:13:00 PM | | Votes: 7

Audi has been more reliable than VW for years... In terms of quality and improvements, they are independent from one another... What are you even talking about, GermanNut?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 5:12:55 PM | | Votes: 1

the real surprise is toyota as a corporation coming in at the industry average. they've always been about quality cars for the masses and it's a shame to see it slipping. verification of all the recalls and problems that have been reported lately.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:07:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

it's unfortunate that you choose to blame "slacker american" (untrue) and the internet for toyota's quality problems.

actually, the cause is a more simple business error. over the last few years, toyota has sacrificed quality for growth. they've weren't able to scale their quality at such a high rate. common error in the corporate world that's hungry for short-term wall street approval.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:25:39 PM | | Votes: 5

enthusiastx11 - You nailed Toyota's issues right on the head.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:53:20 PM | | Votes: 4

I agree--this (Toyota's position) was the surprise of the list. Hopefully they are paying attention.

The one minor correction I would make to your point is that I don't think Toyota is obsessed with Wall Street, so much as they are about growth of market share. Their "sweet spot" of the market is cars as transportation, or, in other words, as a commodity...they need huge marketshare to maximize cost efficiencies. Yes, indirectly their financial performance is reflected in their stock price...but they aren't doing a lot of other things which are more directly related to stock price, they are trying to standardize and grow their market share, and they are doing it faster than their operations can keep up with...that's what's creating their quality issues.
— DW1968 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 10:20:01 PM | | Votes: 1

Again this is initial quality. Not as important as quality over the long haul.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:24:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

That's where the Japanese brands are even worse.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:51:21 PM | | Votes: -1

American brands are worst there.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:16:46 PM | | Votes: -4

that's true. how many old toyotas and lexus do you see driving around? not many. 30 year old mercedes, on the other hand, are common.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:27:16 PM | | Votes: -3

Dude, we know you hate Toyota, but to say there aren't a whole lot of old Toyotas driving around is stupid.

It's one thing to be biased, but at least keep your bias based in reality.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:48:53 PM | | Votes: 4

enthusiastx11 - You would be hard pressed to find a 30 year old Lexus, probably because they weren't out there yet.

However a 15-20 year old one is a rare bird indeed.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:57:52 PM | | Votes: 2

enthusiastx11, where are you looking? I dont see very many 30 year old anything on the road. But NC happens to have very strict inspection requirements so maybe that is the reason here. But I do see plenty of 15-20 yr old Lexus vehicles. I also see a lot of older toyotas and hondas. Typically when a company mentions the best very late model cars to own, toyota and hondas are at the top of the list. I do see quite a few late 80's and early 90's MB's and the mid 90's BMW 3 series.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:04:44 PM | | Votes: 8

Sorry, I was thinking 15 for Lexus. Agreed!
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:34:07 PM | | Votes: 1

Lexus fans sure are quiet.

LOL!!
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:47:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

hmm I guess that 1000hp Supra is pure stock right?
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:58:47 PM | | Votes: 7

LOL you kill me...

Toyota's racing heritage is pretty good, but pales in contrast to even Mazda, much less the Germans.

— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 4:01:37 PM | | Votes: 1

The stoutest stock motor may actually be the rotary.. drive and abuse it and you will see. Modded is even better.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 1:56:30 PM | | Votes: -1

Blah, blah, blah, blah. How about giving credit where credit is due? instead of discrediting BMW (for whatever reasons).

BMW has had the same maintenance plans for over 8 years and BMW have had lease programs from the beginning. The same conditions existed years ago when BMW didn't fair to well. The only thing that has changed during that time are the cars. I"m not sure what point you are trying to get across.

Admit it. BMW is more reliable than Toyota and Lexus according to their owners.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 12:58:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Lexsucks, what credit is due. Again this is initial quality. Anyone hsould be able to make a car fair up well in the first few months of ownership. Get off the I hate Lexus road for a minute. Its annoying.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:18:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

boss:

you're wrong again. leased cars tend to be beaten up by owners since they don't own them and don't care about the long term.

and, having leased bmws, i can tell you they are VERY lenient on wear and tear when you're trading in for another bmw.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:29:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

TheBoss,

The past is the past. Why dwell on it? The BMW vehicles that were not reliable are no longer being sold. What about Today’s cars? If that is all you have left to hold-on to then your argument is weak.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:15:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

0to60,

I can't get off the "I Hate Lexus Road" because I really do hate Lexus. Is anyone allowed to not like Lexus?
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:21:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

You can not like a brand and still not be overly biased and consistently regurgitate idiotic responses everywhere concerning them just because of that. I personally do not care much for Lexus but I at least respect that they are a brand and don't down them every chance I get just for the heck of it.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:38:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

It’s called balance. If someone is adamant about liking something, then is it perfectly OK for someone to be just as adamant about disliking it. It’s a 2-way street dude. Get used to it.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 4:08:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

So if I like someone we are all in agreement that it is ok to speak that but if I dislike them, I am suppose to go out of my way to make sure they know it over and over and over again!
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 5:53:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

LexSucks - here lets try that out...

I hate you!
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 5:58:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

LexSucks - your a son of a bitch!
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 5:59:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

LexSucks - your garbage!!! now how is this for being adamate for what I dont like!!!
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 6:01:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

get my drift?
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 6:01:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

"get my drift?"

- No. What you've desribed is unbalanced.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 4:02:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

"If I ever buy a BMW(probably an M3), I'd take out the motor/tranny and everything else and replace it with the 2jz-gte or 1uz from the Supra and LS400. I'd also get rid of the dumb looking M3 seats and put in a plush Lexus seats."

Way to ruin one of the best sports sedans ever built, putting an archaic and outdated motor and soft and un-supportive seats into an M3... nice!!
— Kinger (View Profile)

Posted on 5/30/2008 4:46:09 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Kudos to BMW, they are a quality brand, but it seems that you quickly forgot this study from JD power regarding long term dependability:

Buick 145
Lexus 145
Cadillac 162
Mercury 168
Honda 169
Toyota 178
BMW 182
Lincoln 182
Subaru 192
Oldsmobile 196
Jaguar 197
Acura 207
Mercedes-Benz 212
Infiniti 215
Industry Average 216

http://www.jdpower.com/reports/buick07/BuickSPR_0807.pdf
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:13:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Um JD Powers isnt long term either. It is initial quality and it is only for the first 3 months. Consumer reports is the only long term one I know of. It does it over 5 years I think.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:31:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Actually, the JP Power VDS study is for a length of three years. I think that you're mistaking this report for IQS study (initial quality study)
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:59:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

If I have said it once I have said it a millions times. No car bought in this day and age should tear up in 90 days. This is not 1970-90 I should be secure for at least four years doing nothing but getting preventive maintenance. I am not ignorant I know that not all cars are created equal but all should last long enough for me to get tired of the car before having to shell out big bucks to fix it or the warranty is shot to hell.
— NItePhire (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:06:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Correct, but many long term issues surface in the first 90 days too.

On our old RX350 the issues were in the first 10 days, and never stopped, until it was taken back.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:01:24 PM | | Votes: -1

These initial quality surveys indicate so little except brand perception and loyalty. Hummer near the top? Pleeease. Let's move on.
— SpicyMikey (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 1:39:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

I agree. Only the Surveys that have Toyota/Lexus on top are the valid ones.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:16:12 PM | | Votes: -2

I'm sure the hummer people are happy now that gas is 4.00 a gal.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:23:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Where is Acura on this list???
Acuras are very reliable & built strong.
— diddy_nyc (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 2:59:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

But VW is on the list. WTF? Not sure what to make of this survey
— SpicyMikey (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 3:38:59 PM | | Votes: 1

What are you confused about? VW is known as the leader in quality for non premium brands and the best seller in Europe. Only the dumb American car buyer can believe that the Japanese trash is better than the fabulous VW products. Wake up people!
— Star (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 6:38:40 PM | | Votes: -2

Maybe so, but their customers are too embarrassed by the giant cow-catcher grill to admit they own one on the survey.
— DW1968 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 10:31:17 PM | | Votes: 1

Michaeltaylor,
The G-wagon and the current GL are completely different animals.

This article doesn't add up.
VW won 1 segment, Toyota had 4 and had a lower % of customers who reported problems (VW and/or Audi didn't even place in the top 5).

GM should've been #1 since it won 1 category just like VW and did better in the % of reported problems. This had to have been weighted by sales volume as well.

Is loyality the same as stupidity?
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 7:18:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Excellent observations huu76.
— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 8:21:54 PM | | Votes: -3

Man Shut up! Dumb American car buyers? Just because we know what quality means doesnt make us dumb. My buddy drives a VW & I drive an Acura. When I drove his VW it felt like the worst produced vehicle i have ever driven. My old Accord had a better build quality. On the other hand, he's always talking about how bad my acura is.
— diddy_nyc (View Profile)

Posted on 5/28/2008 8:25:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Cudos to BMW. I have a 97' 740iL (197K miles) and a 2003 Z4 (83K miles). Bought the 740 used with 35K on it in 99' and the Z4 brand new in Nov of 02'.

HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH EITHER.

Change the oil/get it serviced every 15,000 miles and that's it.

Welcome to my BMW paradise. New X5 and M3 Conv are on my to do list over next 24 months.
— BMW740Z4 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 12:03:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

This survey is inaccurate, most (not all) BMWs are leased, original owners are not around the when the problems start rolling in :)
— sector (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 2:16:37 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Many of Lexus drivers lease their vehicles as well. I've talked with some Lexus salesman where I live and he said 75% of their customers lease. I think it's fair to say people lease for 3-5 years and either stay with the brand or switch to test something new. Same goes with BMW. I believe it was close to 80% of their consumers are leasing. Mercedes was in the low 70's I believe.

But it doesn't mean consumers for each company won't jump ship to the other. I think in this day and age, cars are so well built and look decent enough that they'll try out different models ever few years and find it hard to pick one they like because they're all so good.

That's why we argue which cars better. In the real world those few numerical differences isn't as obvious as we think they are.
— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 10:05:26 AM | | Votes: 1

There's a simple question there--is that a fact? Where's your percentage of how many BMWs are leased? I would say it's half.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/29/2008 11:49:09 AM | | Votes: 0

It's not a fact that can be said for everywhere in the world but in my city that's roughly where it's at.
— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/30/2008 9:47:15 AM | | Votes: 1

The survey was not really based on quality, as stated it more about expectations of equipment and the like. Lets get real BMW's , quality is rubbish.
— lovecars11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/30/2008 11:22:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Good point--I was going to say the same thing. Quality was only one part of the survey, a lot of other things were considered, and BMW is great at marketing.

I wouldn't go so far as to say BMW quality is rubbish, but it's certainly NOT top of the quality list, based on direct experience (I've had 3). I would say they're about average for German cars (I've also had experience with a couple of Audi A4s, and I know people with Mercedes-es). Not as good as some others, but they definitely are fun to drive.
— DW1968 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 10:26:11 PM | | Votes: 1

The research was sponsored by the German Business Association of California ??
— mpls (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 5:53:26 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Yeah right,i was a mule in my previous life,the research was done by Mr Ahnol, the terminator.I'll be
"bahck".BM,Hummer,vw are extremely reliable but but
faulty transmission,electrical problems,slow nav,front
weels shimmy,driven around with the check engine light on all the time that's great reliability,after all it's a bm.The germans are coming,close the barn
— wanga (View Profile)

Posted on 6/1/2008 9:42:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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BMW Leads The Way In Latest Brand Quality Survey-VW Takes Corporate Honors

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