25 Votes

Battle For The Greenest: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Knockdown

TurboSpyder submitted on 2/9/2009 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 9:54:23 AM

80 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.edmunds.com

Tag Links: Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Jetta TDI

We were locked in mortal combat, just as adrenaline-addled Leonidas and hubris-filled Xerxes met at the Battle of Thermopylae, when a relative handful of highly specialized Spartans held off a seemingly bottomless torque-pit of Persians for seven excruciating days.

Here we have the 2009 Toyota Prius gasoline-electric hybrid, embodying up-to-the-minute fuel-sipping methods and machinery intended to take us immaculately into a spotless future. In the other lane, the newly introduced 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI turbodiesel, a rolling relic of tried-and-true yester-tech locomotion (upon whose sooty breath the Industrial Revolution itself was built) that has been remastered, reengineered and reintroduced to be meaner, cleaner and more efficient than ever.

But the battle left us weary — done in by the struggle and tired of each other like Siamese twins on prom night.

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Battle For The Greenest: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Knockdown

About the Author

Bilstein "DampTronic" traitors! http://www.oobject.com/category/top-10-soviet-technology-ripoffs/
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

User Comments

I knew it! When I read this article early this morning on Edmunds I knew that Turbospyder would submit this. Anything with a negative view of Asian car manufacturers and a positive view of German ones has him salivating. This is too funny! I am interested to see how the 2010 model compares...although I would probably still buy the VW before the Prius.
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 3:49:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

"... although I would probably still buy the VW before the Prius." ___ Good job number 43! _____ http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/8610/maxwellsmart2lv9.jpg
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 3:54:50 PM | | Votes: 3

I'll take a camry hybrid over both these two cramp tin cans.
— Badgewhore (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 12:37:23 AM | | Votes: -2

Me to for safety and pratacality
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 7:34:17 AM | | Votes: -3

That's funny considering the Jetta earns the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's "Top Safety Pick" award and the Camry and Prius do not. ___ http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=30
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 10:51:49 AM | | Votes: 2

Some facts from the article: # The two-week fuel-economy average Edmunds got for the Prius was 39 mpg and 36 mpg for the Jetta. # The as-tested curb weight of the Jetta was 350 lbs more than the Prius. # The Jetta does 0 to 60 in 8.9s and the Prius in 10.6. --- Edmunds' Conclusion: "For our money and driving pleasure, we choose the 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI over the 2009 Toyota Prius Touring. Of course, all that could change in a month or so once we get our hands on a 2010 Toyota Prius which is said to be more powerful, more efficient and up-to-date in terms of infotainment."
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 4:03:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

the average mpg in the TDI seems a bit low.....independant tests have shown far better mpg than that
— RaulT (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 4:45:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

The mpg for Prius seem exceptionally low also.
— monkeyrun (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 5:07:51 PM | | Votes: -1

I bet if you went aftermarket and got rid of all the emissions equipment and allowed the car to breathe there would be a good jump in mpg and hp as well.
— veyron1001 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 5:31:31 PM | | Votes: 0

sailor, Sadly most people in USA are too stupid to understand the complexities of being responsible for their own actions. All they know is "the sticker said 30mpg hwy and Im upset because I drive 95mph on the hwy and get 23mpg". In any event, the people who test these cars routinely kick the crap out of them, and often times, there is no mileage on the test cars (so the engines are not broken in). A neighbor of mine was getting 37-38mpg on the hwy with a Saturn Vue -- only thing is, he parks the cruise control at 55mph and sits in the right lane (which is totally dangerous but still). As for your BMW 530d getting 47mpg (5 l/100km)..... damn.... thats awesome.
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 5:41:37 PM | | Votes: 1

Emissions regulations kill diesel sales here in USA. Also, the fact that our moronic govt doesn't tax gasoline at all (18 cents/gallon... cmon now) leads to higher diesel prices that people dont want to pay. Lets see here..... raise the gasoline tax to $0.50 a gallon and gas is slightly more than diesel. ...... hmmmm...

____ say sailor, aren't you in the netherlands? Isn't it late over there right now?
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 5:44:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

# The two-week fuel-economy average Edmunds got for the Prius was 39 mpg and 36 mpg for the Jetta. # The as-tested curb weight of the Jetta was 350 lbs more than the Prius. # The Jetta does 0 to 60 in 8.9s and the Prius in 10.6. ____ VW just needs to add a stop/start function to the Jetta to turn off the motor at red lights to match or beat the Prius' mileage.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 11:38:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

you're soooooooo stupid and ditsy. Get off the site already. If your profile pic is your real picture, then you're old enough to remember REAL pollution... of course Im sure you weren't paying attention to little things like that when you were in high school. Lord knows you had important "activities" to attend to.
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 6:42:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

diesel is slow? What planet are you on? What are you going to tell me next, GM & Ford are making cars no one wants to buy and if they built the Prius they would be in great shape right now? HA, just another bobblehead... we'd better be careful though, the mainstream media might get ahold of you and put you on TV.
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 6:46:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

LexusBeautyQueen, you are like soooooooooooo wrong! The Jetta is like infinity times better than the Toyota, simply because it's German, and thus fabulous!
— BMWGino (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 8:55:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

Only 3mpg more, yes, but diesel fuel is INFERIOR to petrol in a case of carbon dioxide emission, mpg is mistaking in that case:............Prius = 39mpg petrol = 6.02 litres per 100 kilometres = 138 grams of CO2 per 1 kilometre or 0.49 Ib of CO2 per mile------------- Jetta TDI = 36mpg diesel = 6.5 litres per 100 kilometres = 172 grams of CO2 per 1 kilometre or 0.61 Ib of CO2 per mile..................... Kilograms of CO2 emission per litre of burned diesel - 2.63 and petrol - 2.3 : [http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/business/envrp/pdf/envrpgas-annexes.pdf]...................So the Jetta TDI is emmiting a whopping 25% CO2 more than Prius and that's actually becouse it needs 25% more energy than Prius. And Jetta TDI is emitting more NOx, HC and particle matter which aren't healthy:"In fact, long-term exposure to diesel exhaust particles poses the highest cancer risk of any toxic air contaminant evaluated by OEHHA."........[http://www.oehha.org/public_info/facts/dieselfacts.html]
— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 6:19:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

no one cares about CO2, auto emissions account for 10-15% of all GHG emissions. Its estimated that deforestation of the rainforests account for 30%+ of the excess of GHG in the atmosphere. Auto emissions are just something that eco-nazis cling to b/c they hate people who like their cars and enjoy driving.
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 6:44:22 PM | | Votes: -1

Here are a couple of diesel vs. hybrid real world comparisons where the diesels emitted much less CO2 than the hybrids. # Mini Cooper Clubman Diesel Actual CO2 test output: 133g / km # Toyota Prius T Spirit: 157g / km. ____ http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_website/facts_and_figures.php?id=221616 . _____ Audi A8 4.2 TDI: 252 g/km CO2, Lexus LS600 hybrid: 285 g/km CO2. ____ http://www.autobild.de/artikel/hybrid-lexus-gegen-die-konkurrenz_435966.html
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 11:34:14 PM | | Votes: 1

TurboSpyder, in German car magazines diesels definitely emit less CO2, and ONLY THERE, autoexpress is subsidiary of autobild...........................................And here what scientist have to say about mileage of diesel cars compared to petrol:"When evaluating a diesel vehicle’s impact on oil dependence, consumers should adjust the listed fuel economy downward about 20 percent before comparing it with a gasoline vehicle."[http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/technologies_and_fuels/gasoline_and_diesel/the-diesel-dilemma-diesels.html]
— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 4:19:48 AM | | Votes: -1

43k USD Lexus RX450h: 0-90mph 13,5sec, passing 45-65mph 3,3sec, 23 MPG, 0.72 lb/mile CO2 ||| 51k USD BMW X5 xDrive 35d twin-turbo: 0-90mph 15,2sec, passing 45-65mpg 3,7sec, 22 MPG, 1.06 lb/mile ||| 49k USD Mercedes ML 320 CDI BlueTEC: 0-90mpg 18,5sec, passing 45-65mph 4,4sec, 21,6 MPG, 1.09 lb/mile CO2 ||| 42k USD Volkswagen Touareg TDI: 0-90mph 18,2sec, passing 45-65mph 4,4 sec, 20,5 MPG, 1.12 lb/mile CO2. ||| This brilliantly prove how pathetic diesels really are when compared to modern hybrids. Diesels are MUCH SLOWER, more dangerous (longer passing time), much less efficient (don't forget to divide diesel MPG by 1,12), much more polluting and unnecessary complicated (variable vane turbocharger, ultra-high pressure fuel injection, particulate filter, AdBlue injection, double-mass flywheel, heavy engine block, heavy drivetrain). Source: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0904_diesel_hybrid_suv_comparison/specs.html
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 7:45:00 AM | | Votes: -1

"TurboSpyder, in German car magazines diesels definitely emit less CO2, and ONLY THERE, autoexpress is subsidiary of autobild..." ____ abcd, as an EU citizen, have you filed any kind of complaints with EU agencies regarding these magazines' (alleged) deceptive practices of misreporting CO2 emissions?
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 10:14:01 AM | | Votes: 3

downtoearth, how do you explain that Edmunds chose the Jetta TDI as the winner against the Prius? Popular Mechanics also chose the Jetta TDI as the winner when they compared it to the Prius. ____ From an AutoExpress comparo of the Audi A8 4.2 TDI vs. Lexus LS600h: Lexus 0 to 60 mph: 7.0s, Audi 0 to 60: 6.3s. Lexus observed mpg (imperial): 19.4 mpg, Audi observed mpg: 31.5 mpg. _____ "This poor result, combined with the fact the Lexus costs so much, means the Audi A8 earns an easy victory here. Not only is it £20,000 cheaper, it’s also better designed from superior materials, just as fast and around 10mpg more efficient." ____ http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/211689/lexus_ls600h_vs_audi_a8.html
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 10:24:08 AM | | Votes: 3

French Automotive Researchers Published an Attack on Hybrid Cars __ Jean-Jacques Chanaron Research Director within the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) and Chief Scientific Advisor at the Grenoble School of Management and Julius Teske at Grenoble, question strongly whether the current acceptance of hybrid cars particularly in the USA, suggesting that they aren't a good sustainable way to save the planet and will prevent other technologies from developing. ___ "There is a general convergence of strategies towards promoting hybrid vehicles as the mid-term solution to very low-emission and high-mileage vehicles," the researchers assert, "this is largely due to Toyota’s strategy of learning the technology, while building up its own ‘quasi-standard’, thanks to its high-quality and reliability reputation and its high market share on the North American market." They add that, "Such a convergence is *based more on customer perception triggered by very clever marketing and communication campaigns than on pure rationale scientific arguments* and may result in the need for any manufacturer operating in the USA to have a hybrid electric vehicle in its model range in order to survive." ____ http://puregreencars.com/Green-Cars-News/Other-Green-Car-News/French-Researchers-Published-Attack-on-Hybrid-Cars.html
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 10:28:32 AM | | Votes: 4

Britain Wednesday 24 September 2008. Lexus ad banned over climate claims __ Lexus said that it did not claim that the vehicle caused "little or no harm" to the environment, just that it was more environmentally friendly than standard premium SUV vehicles.

But the ASA said the ad implied that the vehicle's emission rate was low in relation to all vehicles and that readers were likely to understand that "the car caused little or no harm to the environment".

The watchdog concluded that the ads were likely to mislead and banned the ads. ____
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 10:41:26 AM | | Votes: 4

June 19, 2008
Toyota ‘Zero Emissions’ Ad Ruled ‘Misleading’__

The Belgian advertising standards authority says an advertisement for the Toyota Prius in the European Voice newspaper was misleading, EUBusiness reports.

Friends of the Earth Europe’s car efficiency campaigner, Jeroen Verhoeven, who filed a complaint against the Prius advertisement that included the words “Zero emissions low,” said it was an example of a ‘misinformation campaign’ by carmakers.

“Car manufacturers are using ‘greenwash’ advertising to confuse consumers whilst at the same time blocking EU proposals for a target of 120g CO2/km by 2012. If Toyota is serious about reaching ‘zero emissions’ anytime soon then why are they blocking a 2012 target?” he said.

The advertisement violated a European labeling directive because it did not contain any CO2 emission or fuel consumption data. ____ http://www.environmentalleader.com/2008/06/19/toyota-zero-emissions-ad-ruled-misleading/

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 10:43:12 AM | | Votes: 4

"This brilliantly prove how pathetic diesels really are when compared to modern hybrids..." ____ downtoearth, the RX450h is also about 300 lbs lighter than the next lightest SUV you mention. And why didn't you point out these figures for people who want an SUV for something other than commuting? Towing capacity - Lexus RX 450h: 3500 lb, BMW X5 xDrive 35d : 6000 lb, Mercedes- Benz ML320 BlueTEC: 7200 lb, Volkswagen Touareg TDI: 7700 lb.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 12:16:24 PM | | Votes: 3

That Gov't site talks about the hazards of diesel particulates from old school busses. The Jetta TDI has a particulate filter, so that it, emits LESS particulates than the Prius, which generates (a small amount of) soot until it warms up like any vehicle burning liquid fuels without a particulate filter (due to poor atomization, etc. ... but you aren't interested in the facts anyway, so why bother).
And if you're putting the TDI because you're another Toyota fan-boy, then wakeup and realize that Toyota is one of the largest manufacturers of diesel vehicles in the world. I've been back from Asia for less than a week after spending 3 weeks chauffeured around in turbo-diesel Toyota limousines (which are Commuter Vans over there)
— DieselRules (View Profile)

Posted on 2/15/2009 9:11:23 PM | | Votes: 1

This article is unfortunate, unforunate in the fact I usually find Edmunds to be non biased.

Where'd they guys price their cars?

In Canada, a 2009 Prius comes loaded at $27,770 (everything on the VW checklist).
The comparable Jetta TDI with auto, sunroof and rear airbags ($3250 in options) comes in at just over $30,000.
On top of that, diesel is still about $0.15/L more expensive than gasoline.

What's really funny is if you buy the topline Jetta TDI that comes with leather and adding auto and rear airbags (still optional for some reason) sends the price to $33,000.

The guy's job title must be mispelled because he sounds more like a chump than a chief road tester.

Everybody still likes to ignore that fact diesel fuel requires 25% more oil to make versus an equivalent volume of gasoline. What advantage does diesel have over gasoline when it costs more in price and in imported oil? The Germans make more money off of diesel, plain and simle, that's why they refuse to drop their outdated cash cows.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 8:50:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

25% more? Can you document this? What are your sources? You make me laugh with your ridiculous conspiracy theories and made up chemical sciences. You do realize that only a certain amount of gasoline and a certain amount of diesel is extractable from a barrel of oil don't you? You cant change the ratios on a whim you know. Not only that, you can make diesel out of just about anything, making it a far more versatile fuel than gasoline (or its current alternatives --- ethanol ---).
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 9:47:49 PM | | Votes: 3

"Everybody still likes to ignore that fact diesel fuel requires 25% more oil to make versus an equivalent volume of gasoline."

According to Wikipedia "diesel is generally simpler to refine from petroleum than gasoline."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel#Fuel_value_and_price

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/11/2009 5:06:12 PM | | Votes: 0

Huu: comparing prices of a Prius to a VW with rear air bags?
Huh?
VW comes with safety features that aren't even available on the Toyota.
The rear air-bags are on option on the VW, but not available at all on the Toyota.
They bump the air-bags from 6 to 8, whereas the Toyota has 4.
The VW has 4-wheel independent suspension and 4-wheel disc brakes to help avoid accidents, ... neither of which is available on the Prius at any price.
When it comes to safety, a loaded Toyota usually matches a base-level VW. Not to mention that if you ditched the electric motor, batteries and controllers, the VW would be about 1000 pounds heavier than the Prius, and all that difference is thicker steel everywhere, saving your a$$ when you get T-boned by a gas-guzzling Toyota Sequoia ... another environmental disaster on wheels.
— DieselRules (View Profile)

Posted on 2/15/2009 9:19:17 PM | | Votes: 1

neutral,
The US gov't taxes gasoline and diesel at the same rate. Diesel used to be cheaper (about 1/2 price) until the oil companies figured they could hose the morons who fell for the diesel fad, now diesel costs more and there's nothing the dummy diesel idiots can do about it but pay, and pay they shall. VW screws you by increasing the price of diesel cars, then big oil comes in for sloppy seconds because your stuck with your retarded diesel car.
On the other hand, hybrid technology allows the smart ones to substantially increase their mileage on the same or less volume of fuel.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 8:57:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Federal Gas tax is 18.4 cents / gallon, federal diese tax is 24.4 cents / gallon. Your liberal, anti-big business, "theyre out to get us mann!!" attitude is quite funny. Toyota is INCREDIBLY good at marketing, the Prius has clogged the brains of the vast majority of the people in the USA. Kudos to Toyota, by not putting a small, efficient gasoline (direct injection) engine with a 6spd, they are able to convince the stupid that hybrids are the only way to get better fuel economy. What makes me laugh, is that the reason a diesel vehicle is so goddamn expensive is because liberal treehugging ecoterrorists demanded that their goddamn hitler-esque cronies legislate ultra, super duper, squeaky amazing clean emissions, instead of just really clean emissions. This means Particulate filters (very expensive), SCR systems, DOC's, decreased fuel economy, etc. So, thanks to over-regulation and abject retardation of eco-nazis, we (society) focus on the extremes instead of a methodical, logical solution (fix engine out emissions FIRST, then apply crazy aftertreatment).
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 9:45:01 PM | | Votes: 0

Hooey, here's a quote from the article: "In terms of cost, the 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI makes more sense than the Prius for at least the first eight years of ownership, and we didn't even mention its free scheduled maintenance for the first three years or 36,000 miles. The Jetta sedan is more of a real car, with more comfortable accommodations and familiar dynamics. It has as much or more content than the current Prius, plus its available hard-drive nav/music/iPod/DVD system makes the one in the Prius look so last year (with the glaring exception of the VW's shameful lack of Bluetooth capability)."
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 11:47:57 PM | | Votes: 2

Also, I hope everyone realizes how silly this whole diesel vs hybrid debate is. Eventually, Spark Ignition, Compression Ignition, & hybrid/electric are all going to be meshed into one system. An HCCI full parallel or even a Chevy Volt with an HCCI Range Extended is the future. Once the emissions systems of diesel and HCCI controls systems are perfected, we will all look back at these trivial comparisons the way Edison & Westinhouse battled out AC vs DC (which oddly enough is coming back to the forefront of the energy debate).
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/9/2009 9:52:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

From a barrel of crude oil 19,15 gallons of gasoline and 9,21 gallons of diesels are refined so it takes twice as much (100% more) crude oil to make the same amount of diesel (Source#1). ||| Diesel contains 1,12 times more energy then gasoline (Source#2). Mileage of the Jetta TDI has to be divided by 1,12 then to be comparable with the Prius. This yields 32 (normalized) MPG of the Jetta and 39 MPG of the Prius. ||| Prius has beaten EIGHT HUNDRED cars in the ADAC Ecotest, scoring #1 in harmful and cancerous emissions test and overall pollution + CO2 test. Diesels occupy the lower bottom end of the list. (Source#3) ||| Well-to-wheel entire greenhouse gas emissions for diesels and petrol engines are equal, there's no environmental benefit in using the diesel. (Source#4) Meanwhile, hybrids are 30% more efficient than standard petrol engines that were used as reference in this research. Conclude for yourself. ||| Lung cancer is the leading cancer killer, in 95% incurable and leads to painful and slow death. That's why California enforced strong emission regulations. Meanwhile idiots in Europe only just (in 2009) enforced particulate filters by introducing EURO 5 norm. ||| All the industry runs diesel. Buying diesel cars will cause price pressure on this fuel which will cause price increases. See the EU for details. Diesel is now on par with regular there. Diesels stopped making sense but people there can only look at the nominal fuel consumption, nothing else. |||||||| Source #1: http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/oil.html#Howused ||| Source#2: http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html#unitsexplained ||| Source#3: http://www.adac.de/Tests/Autotest/Ecotest/default.asp?Quereinstieg=EcoTest&TL=2 ||| Source#4: http://dataservice.eea.europa.eu/atlas/viewdata/viewpub.asp?id=2111
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 7:31:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

What to do with diesel? It's simple, leave it to the industry where it belongs. Every lorry, bus, coach, generator, construction equipment, diesel train runs diesel. You're from Europe so you know best how price pressure on it (partially due to enforced conversion at refineries) made diesel on par with regular gasoline now while a few years ago it was much cheaper, clearly showing there's no surplus of this fuel, rather deficit (BTW, such low diesel prices in the EU actually triggered diesel cars wave there). Companies are not charity institutions, they'll simply transfer additional fuel expenses on their customers (= you) which will result in serious price increase in virtually every sector. ||| I know what you mean by saying it takes more energy to refine gasoline but I'd argue with seeing it this way. It's one and the same process of refining. You can't stop it when getting diesel cause you'll then be left with useless unrefined remainder crude. Even if you wanted to gain more diesel from it, finishing the refining would most likely be necessary. That's why hybrids are so important. They allow consumption of petrol gained in a straightaway process in the most efficient and least harmful way, without disturbing economy-wide price balance. And they prepare ground for plug-in hybrids. ||| There's more. Diesels emit largest amounts of cancerous pollution in cities where population density easily surpasses > 1000 person per square km. Hybrids meanwhile minimize pollution there which means they minimize citizens' exposition to harmful substances. Why editors never mention this? Are they too mentally challenged to understand such ruthlessly simple basics? Someone bribes them to promote diesels? Or maybe those in Europe just hate hybrids (since these cars are mostly made in Asia) so they conceal hard facts suggesting such cars are the best option currently widely available? Anyway, I just hope Europeans will never pay the price of their shallow reasoning. EURO 5 (enforcing particulate filters) is valid just from now which is just ridiculous. EURO 6 (more or less equal to California emissions standards valid since a very long time) will be valid in FIVE years, in 2014. Clearly, European automotive industry dictates it, delaying stringent emission regulations as much as they can. Well, it helps them making more money. Who cares about public health?
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 8:51:47 AM | | Votes: -3

Ahh downtoearth, your ability to spin facts is quite amazing. Eitherway, maybe your name should be "headupass" instead of "downtoearth".
— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 9:16:52 PM | | Votes: 0

1. Your claim about gasoline engines emitting 25% of PM of unfiltered diesels is non-accurate and exaggerated. See this presentation, slide 3 where levels are actually measured:

http://www.aqmd.gov/tao/Ultrafine_Presentations/Session6_5_MattiMaricq.pdf

DPF diesels emit more PM in terms of mass and, worse though, in some cases more in terms of number of particles (which means they are smaller, hence pose more health risks) than port injection petrol engines.

The problem starts with direct injection petrol engines which in many cases double (not quadruple, as you claimed) PM emissions both in terms of mass and particle number. But hybrids have only port injection.

That's why Prius scored 50 out of 50 points in ADAC EcoTest for emissions (PM+NOx). Best diesels with DPF and AdBlue injection (BMW BluePerformance, MB BlueTEC) scored 46/50. Most popular in Europe the Passat 2.0 TDI DPF scored 41/50, the slightly retuned version of this engine in a Skoda Super 2.0 TDI DPF scored 43/50. Interestingly, some DI petrol engines scored 50/50 as well which may mean that PM emissions can be harnessed by means of proper engineering and programming. VW AG FSI were among these engines.

Whether petrol engines will be equipped with PF remains to be seen. For me, the more emission control equipment, the better.

2. NOx emissions are proven to be harmful, partially due to substances created when NOx are released into the environment:
http://www.epa.gov/airprogm/oar/urbanair/nox/hlth.html
http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/nox/noxfldr.pdf

3. Crude refining is a single process and splitting it after getting diesel makes no economical sense thus you can't say it takes more energy to refine petrol (and kerosene). If you stop the refinement after draining diesel, the unrefined remainder will be useless and its energy content will exceed those gained as diesel by more than three times and will be lost.

4. I'm all about swapping lorries for ships, especially in form of currently nearly dead intercontinental river shipping. This can be achieved by increasing fuel taxation/introducing carbon taxes though without the need of apparently wasteful, balance-disturbing and likely harmful for public health dieselification of passanger cars.

5. Despite scientifically proven benefits of using DPF (90%+ PM reductions are true), the leading European carmaker Volkswagen still feels happy offering cars without it. We have 11th of February 2009 today, the EURO 5 norm is soon to be valid and despite all that below are examples of today's offerings of Volkswagen cars in Germany and Denmark. Half of Polo diesels in Germany have no DPF:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7488/vwdeao3.png

and 3 out of 5 Golf Variant TDI have no DPF either:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9166/vwdkrp7.png

Both are small/compact cars which are likely to be used in cities: areas of highest population density. These diesels utilize pump-unit injectors (instead of a common rail
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/11/2009 11:31:33 AM | | Votes: 1

[...] which further increases pollution. ADAC EcoTest score for Polo TDI without DPF is 35/50 and Golf 1.9 TDI without DPF is 33/50 (diesels of this type were kicked out of the USA at least 5 years ago). Compare those to 50/50 for the Prius.

Well, at the end of the day these are just your lungs. Who cares.

More about PM matter in gasoline engines can be read here:
http://bznotes.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/soot-emissions-from-gasoline-direct-injectin-gdi-engines/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_14_5/ai_76908163
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/11/2009 11:32:19 AM | | Votes: 1

RE: "From a barrel of crude oil 19,15 gallons of gasoline and 9,21 gallons of diesels are refined so it takes twice as much (100% more) crude oil to make the same amount of diesel"

This is SO STUPID it is beyond comprehension.
Check this:
For every 100 pounds of flour that my baker buys, he uses 90% of it for bread, and only 10% for cakes.
Therefore, cake uses 9x as much raw flour to make as bread! Same completely idiotic argument!!
I'm surprised you can operate a computer.

How's this: For every yard of material used by a local seamstres, she makes over 100 shirts for every pair of panties. Therefore, panties use 100x as much material as shirts do!

Guess what, the diesel and gasoline aren't produced from the same material: Some is used for gas, some for diesel, in a ratio set by the oil-company based on what they want to sell, and related to the configuration of the refinery process.
But it takes brain cells to understand, so I won't waste my time with you Prius-hugging types.

Here's a fact: [b] the Guinness record for the vehicle using the least fuel to travel through the 48 contiguous states is ... a Prius, right?
Sorry, but a Prius will never hit the 70 miles-per-US-gallon achieved on some tanks by the bone-stock 2009 Jetta TDI that holds the record. [/b]
(It averaged over 58 MPG US, something that no other car sold in the US can match)
And if that Jetta was driven the 30k miles or so that it takes to break-in a VW engine, it would use between 3% and 5% LESS fuel to repeat the task.
(That figure taken the experience of dozens of TDI owners that I know ... it takes about 50,000 kms to hit max mileage in a TDI)

So PLEASE spend your time researching something useful, like the thousands of people contracting cancer and babies born with deformities yearly near the mines and smelters that produce the rare and toxic metals needed to produce a Prius that aren't needed in significant amounts in any other gas or diesel-powered car.
— DieselRules (View Profile)

Posted on 2/15/2009 10:34:46 PM | | Votes: 1

Crappy, the difference between you and I is that I don't like to see anyone lose...I pity you.
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 12:17:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Crappy, how am I anti-American? What proof do you have? Oh, that's right you just make things up and talk out of your ass. Listen, I've been on this site for quite a few years and have seen your type come and go. Many veterans here would back me up that I'm not Anti-American. I don't even recall the last negative comment I made about American cars. However, I do know that you're racist. Also, you are the type of person that thinks that if you like one thing, you can't like another at the same time. Try being more of an open person, it would make you a better human.
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 2:49:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

As a new Prius will be coming out in 2010, Volkswagen's victory might be short-lived.
— Audiphile (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 9:22:01 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Will never buy a diesel.
— truthpursuit (View Profile)

Posted on 2/10/2009 1:27:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

I guess you won't be buying a car in a few decades.
Because the future is serial-electric hybrids with tiny diesel-powered engines for charging the batteries.
Almost every car-maker on the planet has a program working on these for the "long-term" solution to maximizing mileage.

Desiel's only competition is natural gas (compressed) where its readily available. Gasoline is so last millennium!
— DieselRules (View Profile)

Posted on 2/15/2009 10:40:41 PM | | Votes: 1

turbospyder,
Being easy to make only reflects the lower price they should be charging for diesel, but the oil companies know these buttheads are stuck with their diesels and there aren't enough of them to matter so they happily gouge away.

There's a 5 cent difference in the national averages for diesel and gasoline taxes. Hardly a deal breaker.
http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/

neutral,
I posted this over 2 years ago and nobody yet has been able to disprove it.
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

downtoearth,
You forgot that even on a bad day when hybrid mileage is as low as a diesels best day, hybrids still get equal mileage but on atleast 30% less fuel. "More from less", not the "more from more" philosophy of the diesel engine.

sailor,
If 1/2 a barrel of oil maks gasoline while only 1/4 of it makes diesel, you have to import 2 barrels of oil to make the same volume of diesel compared to the amount of gasoline in 1 barrel of oil. By doubling the oil imports, you at best get 30% more mileage. Hybrids will do the same or better and you can actually import fewer barrels of oil.

Not sure why Europe can't comprehend this aside from the fact diesel are more profitable to sell due to their non-existent development costs. That reminds me, new age diesels merely hide emissions in filters, hybrids don't create emissions to begin with. If you don't make it, you don't need to spend money to hide it.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/11/2009 7:20:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

cappy,
Don't be pissed because we rule commerce, education and are making the move into athletics.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/11/2009 7:29:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

huu, being easier to make should mean that diesel requires less energy to make contradicting what downtoearth said.

The Prius averaged 3 mpg better than the Jetta TDI over two weeks but the Jetta is considerably quicker and weighs 350 lbs more. And remember, this is the second magazine that chose the Jetta TDI over the Prius because the Jetta is a "real car" without a bunch of compromises. VW just needs to add a stop/start function like many cars in Europe already have.

And decades back when the American population was considerably different from what it is now they were untouchable as the world's biggest creditor nation and had the best universities and the best research and development labs (e.g., Bell Labs) and dominated in the winning of Nobel Science prizes etc. etc. etc. but now, after all the changes, America is collapsing.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/12/2009 1:22:51 AM | | Votes: 0

"Great job LexusBeautyQueen" When was the last time anybody seen a VW hybrid commercial? Anyway, in this case it's what's in a name. WHO'S NUMBER ONE?
— lexworld (View Profile)

Posted on 2/12/2009 10:22:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

turbospyder,
Global news just had a show on some Asian researches (looked like college kids) creating a contraption that reads brain activity for quadralegics and the mentally handicapped to use computers and interact. That's just the latest example, want more?

Your last paragraph. So tell me somethign I don't know. The downward spiral can be stopped, but are Americans willing to do it?
Google "Rise and Fall of the roman empire" and you'll see lots of paraelles to America. Here are just 5.
1. Degradation of family structure, no respect for authority (single moms and wiggers come to mind too).
2. No sense of patriotism, the Romans outsourced their defense, more and more peopel are joing the US forces to get a free education but go AWOL when they have to do their duty.
3. Insurrection. Senators and the wealthy worked to better themselves at the expense of the empire. Senators and commerce are doing the same to hollow out American industry.
4. An increasing taste for violence. Think Gladiators vs the ever bloodier UFC type entertainment.
5. The Roman economy was based on conquest and stealing wealth. Modern economics is about creating false wealth through financing. The only thing that will replace the USD as a reserve currency is gold.

There are more examples.

As for the Jetta beating the Prius. Germany's latest technology can barely keep up (on a good day) to 5yo hybrid tech. Wait 3 months.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/12/2009 7:01:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

huu, Group A people win as many Nobel Science prizes in three years as the Group B people have won in total. As for the latest hybrid technology keeping up with German technology, please see here http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_website/facts_and_figures.php?id=221616 .
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/12/2009 11:23:16 PM | | Votes: 1

TurboSpyder, your recycling of one and the same rigged test where biased and jealous British journalists must have driven the Prius very hard (especially braking hard to diminish the recovery braking feature) to skew its fuel economy has started to be pathetic a long time ago. Let me crush your evidence once and forever.

AutoExpress claims Prius II returns 41.5 UK-MPG ~= 34.55 US-MPG

Meanwhile (as for today when sources were accessed):

582 Prius II drivers from Germany get on AVERAGE 5,23 l/100 ~= 45 US-MPG [1]

635 Prius II from the USA get on AVERAGE 46-48 US=MPG [2]

In all Edmunds tests of Prius II the car returned numbers withing 40-50 US-MPG [3]

So I have 1217 witnesses and four professional tests testifying (in a dead consistent manner, if you haven't noticed) that AutoExpress test is just a steaming pile of British jealous dung. 1221 against 1. Any questions?

And if you want to compare these figures with what diesels return, don't forget the energy-density normalization coefficient. It is somewhere between 1,09-1,12. And it works against diesels.

And stop claiming it takes more energy to refine petrol. It's a false statement. Read my comments above. It is one single process of refining crude which can't be split, only you get diesel fuel before you reach gasoline/kerosene/LPG fuels. If you stop when getting diesel only, at least three time more energy than you got in it will be wasted in the unrefined (thus useless) reminder which can't be used either in cars or in planes. Maybe in a wood-burning stove only it would work.

Regarding biofuels, it is indeed better to make biodiesel but Energy Return On Energy Invested (EROEI) indicator for biodiesel is 2. If you thing that's a lot, bear in mind that fuels from crude oil that started our civilization as we know it had once the EROEI of 100. Educate yourself about the topic using this article
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3810
and this table:
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Table_1.PNG

[1] http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebersicht/49-Toyota/439-Prius.html?constyear_s=2004&constyear_e=2008
[2] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList2&make=Toyota&model=Prius
[3] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/ViewModelDetail/make=Toyota/model=Prius
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 10:01:07 AM | | Votes: 1

Downtoearth, let me bring you back down to earth. In the Edmunds article that this thread is about, the Prius averaged 39 mpg over a two week period. The Jetta TDI that weighs 350 lbs more than the Prius and is considerably quicker than the Prius averaged only 3mpg behind the Prius over the same two week period. The BMW Clubman diesel in the AutoExpress test that got so much better mileage than the Prius has a regenerative braking function and stop-start function that the Jetta TDI in this test doesn't have. If the Jetta TDI here gets almost as good mileage as the Prius, then it stands to reason that the BMW Clubman diesel with its more advanced fuel saving functions and smaller diesel engine than the TDI would get much better mileage than the Prius - which is exactly what AutoExpress found.

Btw, we don't have to compensate for the fact that diesel fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline anymore than we have to compensate for the fact that carbon fiber is lighter yet stronger than steel. Higher energy density is just an inherent advantage that diesel fuel has over gasoline.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 11:32:21 AM | | Votes: 1

Oh, and the Clubman diesel in the Autoexpresss article also has a curb weight of 50 kg or 110 lbs less than the Prius so that's another factor that makes the AutoExpress results very plausible in light of how well the heavier Jetta TDI with a larger diesel engine did against the Prius.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 11:42:14 AM | | Votes: 1

1. If you claim Jetta is heavier and we need to compensate for this, it means you don't understand basic characteristics of engines. Diesels are always gonna be heavier than competing petrol cars, and apparently heavier than hybrids. It's a disadvantage diesels comes with as standard. You may not understand why nor accept it, but it doesn't matter. It's an indisputable fact.

2. AutoExpress test was rigged in the shittiest way possible. I proved it by providing 1217 examples testifying against it. You obviously didn't comment on that because this would prove how badly you lost.

3. What's more pathetic, AutoExpress compared the AUTOMATIC Prius with a MANUAL Clubman D. Clearly it proved how much they wanted to cheat their readers and how much credibility they lost.

4. What's not even pathetic but just turdy, AutoExpress compared cars of completely different sizes. Mini Clubman D wheelbase is 2547 mm while Prius is 2700 mm. Clubman length is 3945 mm while Prius is 4450 mm. It's almost like comparing Volkswagen Polo vs Volkswagen Passat, cars are two classes apart. Now we see why the Clubman is lighter than the Prius: it's just a midget's fart.

Since I can't find the test of an automatic Mini Clubman D, I'll use ECE numbers:

Toyota Prius II:
combined consumption: 4,3 l/100 km [1]
CO2-Emission: 104 g/km [1]
consumption in city traffic: 5 l/100 km [1]

Mini Clubman D automatic:
combined consumption: 5,1 l/100km [2]
CO2-Emission 136 g/km [2]
consumption in city traffic: 6,6 l/100 km [2]

So the smaller Mini Clubman D, despite being available with latest diesel fuel saving technology introduced by BMW in 2008, loses in EVERY WAY with the larger Toyota Prius hybrid, introduced in 2004. Moreover, it poses more health risk in town where population density is often higher than 1000 persons/km2.

And now the final hit proving Mini Clubman D is an epic failure of diesel "eco" technology. ADAC EcoTest awarded the 2004 Prius with 50 out of 50 points for minimizing health-risky, carcinogenic emissions. The 2008 Mini Clubman D scored 37 out of 50. [3] Any questions?

You can claim higher energy density is an inherent advantage of diesel over gasoline. But then I'll claim that it requires TWICE LESS crude oil to make a gallon/liter of gasoline than it takes to make the same volume of diesel. And that's an inherent advantage of gasoline over diesel.

By swapping Prii with Clubman Ds you'll increase your dependence on imported foreign oil TWICE.

To sum up - the Mini Clubman D automatic with start-stop and braking energy recovery is:
- much smaller than Prius
- despite that, much less economical
- much more carcinogenic, especially in cities where huge population is exposed at risk
- burns through fossil fuels twice as fast as the Prius
- as quick as Prius (0-100 in 10.9 sec) despite being so much smaller and lighter

The newest BMW diesel technology = epic failure.

Now it's clear why Germans are trying to catch up, introd
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 1:17:34 PM | | Votes: 1

1. If you claim Jetta is heavier and we need to compensate for this, it means you don't understand basic characteristics of engines.

I never said the extra weight needs to be compensated for.

2. AutoExpress test was rigged in the shittiest way possible. I proved it by providing 1217 examples testifying against it. You obviously didn't comment on that because this would prove how badly you lost.

B.S.

3. What's more pathetic, AutoExpress compared the AUTOMATIC Prius with a MANUAL Clubman D. Clearly it proved how much they wanted to cheat their readers and how much credibility they lost.

The Prius only comes with a CVT transmission to maximize fuel economy.

4. What's not even pathetic but just turdy, AutoExpress compared cars of completely different sizes. Mini Clubman D wheelbase is 2547 mm while Prius is 2700 mm. Clubman length is 3945 mm while Prius is 4450 mm. It's almost like comparing Volkswagen Polo vs Volkswagen Passat, cars are two classes apart. Now we see why the Clubman is lighter than the Prius: it's just a midget's fart.

When it comes to performance and fuel economy, power, weight and efficiency are what's important but a difference of 110 lbs is not a lot of big difference when you're talking about cars.

"The newest BMW diesel technology = epic failure. Now it's clear why Germans are trying to catch up."

Your thinking = epic failure.

"In our hands, the Clubman averaged 57mpg – the best on test. Yet its styling, driving enjoyment and performance are all first rate. As with the Cooper and Cooper S, it has precise steering, great body control and bags of character. The engine is refined and never has to be pushed hard, while the ride is superb. BMW has got the balance of efficiency and pace spot-on – the Cooper D proves it’s cool to be green."

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221670/mini_cooper_clubman_d.html

----

French Automotive Researchers Publish an Attack on Hybrid Cars
February 10, 2008

"Jean-Jacques Chanaron Research Director within the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) and Chief Scientific Advisor at the Grenoble School of Management and Julius Teske at Grenoble, question strongly whether the current acceptance of hybrid cars particularly in the USA, suggesting that they aren't a good sustainable way to save the planet and will prevent other technologies from developing.

"'There is a general convergence of strategies towards promoting hybrid vehicles as the mid-term solution to very low-emission and high-mileage vehicles,' the researchers assert, 'this is largely due to Toyota’s strategy of learning the technology, while building up its own ‘quasi-standard’, thanks to its high-quality and reliability reputation and its high market share on the North American market.' They add that, 'Such a convergence is *based more on customer perception triggered by very clever marketing and communication campaigns than on pure rationale sci
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 2:46:22 PM | | Votes: 1

cont.)

rationale scientific arguments* and may result in the need for any manufacturer operating in the USA to have a hybrid electric vehicle in its model range in order to survive."

http://puregreencars.com/Green-Cars-News/Other-Green-Car-News/French-Researchers-Published-Attack-on-Hybrid-Cars.html
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 2:48:38 PM | | Votes: 1

And another thing, the Jetta is an Insurance Institute for Highway Safety "Top Safety Pick" with "good" front, side and rear impact ratings. The 2009 Prius has the second poorest rating of "marginal" for rear crash protection.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 2:56:36 PM | | Votes: 1

VW Jetta Clean Diesel Wins 2009 Green Car of the Year

http://www.greencar.com/articles/vw-jetta-clean-diesel-wins-2009-green-car-year.php
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/13/2009 10:31:34 PM | | Votes: 1

Current prices locally in Vancouver, BC (20 minutes from the US border):
Regular gas: 97 cents/litre
Mid-grade: $1.03 /litre
Premium: $1.06
Diesel: 92 cents/litre (ultra-low sulphur or ULSD)
Taxes are identical on all of the above.

This is at CHEVRON or SHELL or wherever. The same companies, from the same gas as the stations across the border that are charging a premium for diesel.

The US is the ONLY country in the world charging more for diesel, and they've only done it for a couple of years out of a century of gas sales.
So, what has changed in the US that hasn't changed for the same companies selling the same product literally blocks away?????

And there have been no new refineries in the US since the 1970s, so the process hasn't changed at all.
Nobody has ever given a plausible explanation for why diesel that cost less than gas 5 years ago now costs more, other than the US companies are scared sh$$less that everyone will buy a more efficient diesel vehicle and their sales will drop.

Face it, the only things driving ridiculous diesel prices are "maximizing shareholder value" (profits) and price fixing.
— DieselRules (View Profile)

Posted on 2/15/2009 10:52:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

DieselRules,
Diesel is more expensive than gasoline in Ontario and both are taxed equally. On the federal level, gasoline is taxes 2.5 times higher than diesel yet diesel is more expensive. The oil companies have diesel buyers by the balls and they know it.
http://www.ontariogasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx

turbospyder,
Diesel has more energy which produces more torque, great for pulling, a complete waste pushing a sardine can around.

Brand new Jetta wins Green GOTY award. Did the 5yearold Prius even qualify since the other nominees were all brand new models? Its pretty easy to beat a car that wasn't even in the competition.

Look at this, we have proof, the Prius wasn't even allowed to compete because its not brand new.
http://jalopnik.com/5071095/2009-green-car-of-the-year-finalists-announced

Sorry to ruin your spin.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/16/2009 6:48:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

turbospyder,
That's some pretty good parroting of the IIHS. Care to explain what it all means?
The Prius and Jetta rated identical in Front and Side. In rear tests, there's two ratings, both cars rated 'G' for geometry (positioning of the head restraint).
The Prius lost in the Dynamic Test which tests the force of the impact to the head. They state that multiple angles and setups are tested, but not all setups were tested for all vehicles. How is it that two cars which scored identical on everything suddenly differ in this? Did Toyota fill the Prius' headrest with bricks?
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/head_restraint_info.html

Look at the Highlander, identical MY rated differently (one with adjustable head restrants, one without. The fixed head restraint did better which you'd think would cause more force to the back of the head).
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?toyota
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/16/2009 6:59:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Here's a VW examples. Two VW Beetles from the same year rated differently because one has an adjustable lumbar and the other doesn't.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?volkswagen

The car with the adjustable lumbar did better, which I would've figured the opposite since having the lumbar set out too far would change the angle of your head in an impact, providing a greater chance of whiplash.

What the hell do I know though, I'm not the IIHS and I think diesels passenger cars are a waste.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/16/2009 7:03:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

turbospyder,
Regarding Clubman vs Prius. The Prius has a midsize interior in a compact exterior, what's the Clubman got? Compact interior to match its compact exterior. Such amazing engineering, more mileage from a smaller car. They should try more mileage from a bigger car sometime.

The new Prius will now be classified as a midsize car (with an even bigger interior) but get better mileage than Europe's diesel tin cans.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/16/2009 7:06:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

huu, the 2009 Prius received the second worst rating of "marginal" for rear crash protection because according to the IIHS page below it did poorly in the "dynamic rating" category.

From IIHS:

"The dynamic ratings are derived from two seat design parameters (acceleration of the dummy's torso and time from impact initiation to head restraint contact with the dummy's head) plus tension and shear forces recorded on the dummy's neck."

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?toyota

The acceleration of the dummy's torso would also be related to how well the rear of the car absorbs impact energy. Perhaps Toyota sacrificed some rear energy absorption capability to save a little weight. Even the 2009 Lexus LS and GS get the second worst rating for rear crash protection.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=10

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/18/2009 2:05:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Disregard the comment about rear energy absorption - it looks like the IIHS only tests the seats/head restraints.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/18/2009 2:13:55 PM | | Votes: 1

I just read Winding Road magazine's long term update (issue #43) of their Jetta TDI and they're averaging 42 mpg.
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/20/2009 6:08:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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