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Believe It Or Not Diesels Still Can Equal Savings
With the price of diesel fuel pushing $5 a gallon, many Americans might not think this is the best time to buy a diesel car or sport-utility vehicle. But they'd be mistaken.

The fact of the matter is that even though the price of a gallon of diesel has climbed more than 20% in the past 12 months, diesel cars still offer better gas mileage—and savings—than regular cars. That's because diesel engines are much more efficient than gas engines, delivering up to 25% to 30% more miles per gallon.

That's good news for German import brands like Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen, who are launching a wave of new clean-diesel cars in the U.S. starting this fall and into 2009 and beyond. Domestic and Asian manufacturers also have plans to offer more diesels in the U.S. market.

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Believe It Or Not Diesels Still Can Equal Savings



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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 5/30/2008 3:39:32 PMView My AgentSpace
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I knew this article was bogus after I read the last sentence.

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ghosthunterghosthunter - 5/30/2008 3:47:38 PM
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you mean. diesels are 5.15 per gallon not 5 dollar per gallon?


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WhelanWhelan - 5/30/2008 4:13:50 PM
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Even if it was bogus, the perception now is that a Diesel is not worth the added cost of the car plus fuel.

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abcdabcd - 5/30/2008 5:10:23 PM
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in europe we have higher taxes on petrol than diesel to help Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen sell more cars with diesel engines

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SteedPubSteedPub - 5/30/2008 7:27:11 PM
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The "right" diesel is still a good bargain. It really is close. The price spread between gas and diesel is about the same as the increase in efficiency.

If the prices were closer together or upside down as they have been in the past, it is a no brainer.

Even at this time if the price spread makes the "cents per mile" a push, I still give weight to diesels because they last longer and you never know what fuel price fluctuations are going to do next month.

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damikcodamikco - 5/30/2008 7:33:21 PMView My AgentSpace
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ok do the math diesel can offer 25-30% savings in fuel consumption. But it also cost 25-30% more than gasoline, add this fact with the fact that repairing that diesel can be 50% more than a conventional gas engine = no savings.

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DieselRulesDieselRules - 5/31/2008 5:15:58 PM
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25-30% more.
WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
I paid $1100 more on a $22,000 VW 10 years ago.
That's 5%
That same car is worth $10,000 now because its diesel, but a gas-engine car with lower miles is $6,000

PURCHASE PRICE 5% more
RESALE PRICE > 50% more

The math is simple ... diesel costs a lot less to own.


huu76huu76 - 5/30/2008 10:25:22 PM
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Yup, still trying to sell the diesel pipedream. Diesel used to be $0.499/L before the diesel fad, now it costs $1.39/L and its only 5% of the market? Imgine, $2.60/L if diesel ever hits 10%.

Diesel only benefits the German automakers who make higher profits off of them.

Ironically, the higher gas prices go, the faster hybrids pay for themselves.

Steedpub,
Don't forget the emissions are still higher in diesels.

damikco,
Diesel also takes 30% more oil to make. Higher efficiency requires more imported oil. So much for reducing oil dependence.

Europe just doesn't get it.

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WillisWillis - 5/31/2008 6:04:56 AM
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"""Europe just doesn't get it."""


No, YOU don't get it, moron.


DieselRulesDieselRules - 5/31/2008 5:18:17 PM
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HUU
EMISSIONS ARE LOWER ON DIESELS PERIOD

Lets talk based on FACTS rather than personal misconceptions.


JRobUSCJRobUSC - 5/31/2008 10:42:47 AM
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I'm going to focus on high end cars here (Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc.).

Where I am premium gas is $4.19, diesel is $4.79. That's a 14.3% difference (though that is up from 8% a couple of weeks ago). Pretty much every test I've seen has shown a 30-40% fuel economy bump for diesels. Taking out the fuel cost then yields a 15.7-25.7% savings advantage for the diesel versus premium gas.

Now compare that to a hybrid. The hybrid will likely offer similar 15-25% savings, but the cost of the hybrid is $7-10k more than the gas version. The diesel is $2-3k more than the gas version, putting the hybrid $4-8k in the hole versus the diesel. You also don't lose half the trunk in a diesel the way you do with a hybrid.

Obviously I'd much rather see diesel cost the same or less than regular gas, but the numbers are still very favorable for diesels versus gas or hybrid. The ideal scenario, until electric or alternative fuel vehicles become feasible, would be a diesel hybrid. We don't have those either though. So we'll see how this plays out throughout the year, when the Germans bring all their new diesels over.

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I95SPEEDINGTICKETSI95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 5/31/2008 4:22:20 PM
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Thank You

First Sensible comment i have seen in a long time on this site.


EL44EL44 - 5/31/2008 5:08:21 PMView My AgentSpace
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Hybrids are selling more and more. Here in Germany München) i'm surprised to see much more frequently Hybrids comparing even a year ago.I was last week in Switzerland and saw lot of taxi TOYOTA prius.

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DieselRulesDieselRules - 5/31/2008 5:26:13 PM
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Here's some REALLY SIMPLE MATH:
DIESEL VEHICLE PRICE: roughly $2k higher (VW or Bemz)
Cost per mile is MUCH LOWER (you'll save from hundreds to thousands of $$$ per year on fuel)
Cost of maintenance: oil-changes and timing belts, but no tune-ups ... save money each year.
RESALE: Get back at least 2x what you paid for the diesel engine when you bought it.

EXAMPLE: (from Craigslist in Seattle)
2001 VW JETTAs with gas engine:
a half dozen cars, all for $10k or less
2001 VE JETTA TDI
a few cars, starting at $13k and up!

When that car was new, the TDI was about $1500 more than the non-turbo gas, and the same price (or less) than the turbo-gas.
But now its 30 - 50% higher in resale value.

PLEASE TRY TO ARGUE AGAINST THE FACTS: DIESEL IS INCREDIBLY CHEAPER THAN GAS TO OWN!

reply to this comment
DieselRulesDieselRules - 5/31/2008 5:28:41 PM
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PS: The fuel savings are greater in a luxury car, where the 6-cyl. diesel has the real-world performance of a V8 with the fuel consumption of a 4-cyl.

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steve27tsteve27t - 5/31/2008 6:23:56 PM
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The US exports some of its diesel production...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN1151397820080211

This article says that some of the price hike in diesel is due to the extra cost of refining it to the required standard for new high tech clean diesel engines. My understanding was that diesel was historically much cheaper to refine that gasoline, almost a by-product, but maybe the new regs. have changed this dynamic?

Seems a coincidence that on the eve of the launch of these high tech diesels from the Europeans that we have this unprecedented hike in price of diesel fuel?

If excess diesel is being exported then it is not domestic demand that is forcing higher prices. The scenario of diesel going even higher than gasoline in the USA should not happen.




reply to this comment
DieselRulesDieselRules - 5/31/2008 9:20:18 PM
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And the US imports the "surplus" gasoline from European refineries ... 1 of 5 gallons of US gas is from Europe.
The technical cause of the US diesel pricing is the refineries, which use a process optimized to generate the most gasoline possible, even though crude is burned to create the heat (its called "thermo cracking", I believe).
In Europe, they use a different process called "hydro-cracking" or something, which doesn't require as much energy and also produces more diesel.

But the ROOT CAUSE of the problem in the US is ultra-rich oil companies who won't crack their tight wallets open a crack to build new refineries to produce diesel.
They'd rather create an artificial shortage to drive the costs up to drive diesel sales down.
After all, if everyone bought diesels their sales would drop by 30% (or more), resulting in reduced revenue ... and they aren't stupid!
They are looking out for themselves and their shareholders.
Screw the environment and the public.


quizzquizz - 5/31/2008 11:41:29 PM
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Nope, Congress won't allow any more refineries to be built. The last refinery was built in the 70's, and it was by law that no other refineries were built since then.


DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/1/2008 6:44:50 PM
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Why would they block refinery creation?
What happens as the existing ones fall apart?
How much fuel is wasted running refineries pushing 1/2 century old when newer designs are surely more efficient?

The US Gov't seems to be fairly consistent in its apparent stupidity


huu76huu76 - 6/1/2008 1:04:01 AM
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dieselrules,
If Europe didn't subsidize diesel, there'd be no demand.

The Jetta TDI in Canada is $27,500. The Prius and Camry Hybrid are $29,500 and $30,500 respectively. With a $0.15/L spread, the difference is made up after 17,000km.

If Europe really cared about the environment, they'd mandate Bluetec on all diesel passenger cars and automakers would give us Bluetec in SUVs instead of the more profitable, dirtier CDIs.

North American diesel supplies were just fine before the Euros brainwashed some yuppies to think diesel was good for the env't.

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JRobUSCJRobUSC - 6/2/2008 1:46:09 PM
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here's a link to an article where a larger, more luxurious, less aerodymaic BMW 520d got better fuel economy than a Prius, despite beating the Prius in every performance measure (including a whopping 2.7 seconds 0-60). And that was with the testers adding 100 miles of city driving to the trip just to see if they could skew the figures to the advantage of the Prius. Didn't work, the Prius still averaged 40mpg, the 520d averaged 41.9mpg.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/17/toyota-prius-is-a-gas-guzzler-compared-to-the-bmw-520d/


huu76huu76 - 6/1/2008 1:16:14 AM
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JRRob,
If your high end diesels were so clean, they'd be here already. Instead, BMW etc are still trying to work out ways to hide the higher pollution levels before they get approved for N.A. MB is the only company who has so far, but they don't offer Bluetec in Europe because its not required and eats into the diesel premium/profit that they love so much.

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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/1/2008 7:12:13 AMView My AgentSpace
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"Instead, BMW etc are still trying to work out ways to hide the higher pollution levels before they get approved for N.A."

-

Oh those tricky Europeans. Unfortunately for you when AutoExpress tested three hybrids and five diesels they labeled two out of the three hybrids as environmental "gimmickry" but they said that four out of the five diesels were "green".


Honda Civic hybrid: gimmick

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221685/honda_civic.html


Lexus GS450h : gimmick

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221682/lexus.html


Toyota Prius: Green

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221679/toyota_prius.html

-

SEAT Ibiza Ecomotive diesel: Green

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221676/seat_ibiza_ecomotive.html


VW Polo Bluemotion: Green

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221673/vw_polo_bluemotion.html


Mini Cooper Clubman D: Green

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221670/mini_cooper_clubman_d.html


Skoda Fabia Greenline 1.4 Tdi: Gimmick

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221667/skoda_fabia_greenline.html


Ford Focus 1.6 TDCi ECOnetic: Green

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221655/ford_focus_16_tdci_econetic.html





abcdabcd - 6/1/2008 5:45:38 PM
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TurboSpyder:

you show me reliability index from US after I show you my from europe
so you should rather use test not from far europe but from US where is comparison between hybrid and diesel:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/126370/article.html

ps: that diesels have worser emissions than petrol it`s obvious , that`s why they have problems to pass california`s emission restrictions that petrols don`t have


DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/1/2008 5:45:53 PM
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The only hybrids that will last in the market will be diesel powered. They're coming soon.
Gasoline-powered cars are a technology that will disappear due to economy and emissions laws.

In fact, even planes are going diesel. The 100-octane fuel that most burn will be illegal if the EPA gets its way, and the new diesel airplane engines are both lower-cost to operate, but also lower-cost to maintain.

Don't mind huu ... he's the official "anti-diesel troll" on Autospies. Will always ignore the facts in favor of some large Japanese car-makers marketing BS.


DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/1/2008 6:00:06 PM
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TurboSpyder: Please consider that emmissions laws were designed to be passable by gas cars, with no consideration for diesels.
If the laws were designed for diesels (With their higher compression ratios -- more NOx, but lower fuel consumption -- lower CO, CO2, etc.) then gas-powered cars wouldn't be able to pass.
The fact is, new diesels can pass tests designed FOR Gas engines, and that is an amazing testament to how low their emissions are!


TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/1/2008 8:11:05 PMView My AgentSpace
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abcd, I have a hard time understanding your English but I think you're asking for a North American mileage comparison between hybrids and diesels - try this one:

"Our fuel station was offering up B20 biodiesel, 20 percent of which comes from vegetable oil, animal fats and other sources, meaning that from an environmentalist’s perspective the German diesel didn’t just beat the Japanese hybrids, it trounced them. Not only that, it had more than half of its 14.5-gallon tank left at the end—it could have made the same trip again without refueling! Our example was pretty much a stripper, absent even the usual VW trip computer, so we had no instant feedback loop on our performance. Maybe if we’d had that, we could have nudged the economy from 49.9 mpg into the 50-mpg range."


http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060424/FREE/60417021/1008

And the comparison that you pointed out pitted a three-year-old Jetta against new hybrids - if you use a modern diesel like the BMW 1-series in Europe which has a stop/start function and regenerative braking the results will be much different.



abcdabcd - 6/2/2008 6:41:15 AM
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until petrol and diesel are from petroleum , diesel and petrol cars will coexist becouse in rectification process of petroleum is produced some amount of petrol and diesel . in my opinion future for car engines with diesel cycle is gtl ( gas to liquid ) fuel produced from gas , gtl has length of carbon chains between normal diesel and petrol so it unite the best of petrol and diesel , it has been use by audi tdi in le mans . future for cars with petrol engines may be in VCR ( variable compression ratio ) , HCCI ( Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition ) , lean mixture - then they maybe will have energy effeciency of diesels or even better ( energy effeciency isn`t the same as milage - one galoon diesel has more energy than one galoon petrol by about 15% and of course about 15% more CO2 but CO2 emission isn`t great problem becouse cars produce only 4% of world`s CO2 emission ) .

"If the laws were designed for diesels (With their higher compression ratios -- more NOx, but lower fuel consumption -- lower CO, CO2, etc.) then gas-powered cars wouldn't be able to pass."

CO2 emission isn`t restricted becouse it depends from engine size and power , CO could be easy burn to CO2 . and diesels emit more HC and particulate matter ( PM ) but I know - now with all that catalizators they are california legal .



huu76huu76 - 6/1/2008 5:53:58 PM
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Except for the Focus, the other cars you listd are barely larger than the SMART.

Did you even read the links? It doesn't say its a gimmick, it just says Honda didn't do a very good job because the electric motor is too week, thereby requiring them to engineer it to run the gas engine full time. Everybody already knew this, hence SynergyDrive is the king of all hybrids.
You also left out that they mentioned teh FCX is available in California already (remember the 1st REAL hydrogen car, unlike the Hydrogen7 gimmick).

GS450h
"it’s pitched as a car with V8 performance and V6 efficiency – its claimed CO2 emissions are tough to beat."
"0-60mph sprint time of 5.9 seconds"
"The main problem the GS faces is its diesel rivals. They can’t match its pace, but produce similar emissions and much better economy."

If the Germans want speed, they get killed in mileage and emissions. If you want mileage, they get killed in speed. Lexus gives be best compromise and offers the largest interior room vs the 5, A6 and E.
Nowhere does it say gimmick.

If you're going to use a link and twist its words, expect me to read it, out you, and tell you what they actually say.

reply to this comment
DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/1/2008 6:06:06 PM
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HUU
The JETTA has the interior space of the Prius, but with a much larger trunk.
And if they depleted more of the earth's rare resources and built it all out of aluminum like the Prius, it would have won the test!
Fortunately for the environment's sake, Prius production is very small.

Please, come out of your cave, leave the house, and experience the real world!


TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/1/2008 8:27:49 PMView My AgentSpace
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huu76, click on each of those links and scroll down and next to the word "verdict" it's says gimmick for two out of the three hybrids (use the F3 function if you have to).

And the Lexus hyrids have nothing on the German diesels in terms of performance or CO2 emissions.

AutoExpress test of the Audi A8 diesel against the Lexus LS 600h

Acceleration times:

0-60/30-70mph

Lexus LS600h L: 7.0 / 5.6 secs
Audi A8L 4.2 TDI SE: 6.3 / 5.7 secs

Overall Verdict:

"This poor result, combined with the fact the Lexus costs so much, means the Audi A8 earns an *easy victory here*. Not only is it £20,000 cheaper, it’s also better designed from superior materials, just as fast and around *10mpg more efficient*."

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/211689/lexus_ls600h_vs_audi_a8.html#

---

Here are the CO2 test results of an Autobild hybrid vs. diesel comparison (where the Audi A8 had the best acceleration times):

Audi A8 4.2 TDI : 9.5 L/100km – 252 g/km CO2

BMW 745D: 9.7 L/100km - 256 g / km CO2

Lexus LS600 hybrid: 12.1 L/100km – 285 g/km CO2

Mercedes S420 CDI: 9.7 L/100km l - 255 g / km CO2





http://www.autobild.de/artikel/hybrid-lexus-gegen-die-konkurrenz_435966.html







JRobUSCJRobUSC - 6/2/2008 1:37:14 PM
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Huu, since you brought up the GS350h, here's some stats for you.

The 535d is just as quick as the GS450h, gets better fuel economy (the GS450h has gotten the same mileage in comparison tests as the better performing, gasoline 535i -- the 535d should better that by 30% or more), and as a bonus, you get to keep the entire trunk instead of the single golfbag-sized space you get with the GS450h. Oh, and it's only expected to cost $3k more than the 535i, instead of $10k more like the GS450h is versus the GS350.

Why don't you just start every post with "I hate German cars"? That way people won't have to bother reading through the rhetoric.


DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/1/2008 6:27:01 PM
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HUU: How can you be a Toyota Fan, an against diesel?
If Toyota stopped selling diesel vehicles, they'd lose over 1/2 their truck sales!

Read this (from a Toyota web-site)
Traditionally, diesel engines provide driving pleasure in a different way than petrol engines. What they lack in output, they make up for in torque. In today's busy traffic, that can be a benefit. However, most diesel engines have the additional handicap that the torque they provide is only available over a small rev-range. Toyota engineers have overcome both the lack of outright power output and the limited usable rev-range, with Toyota diesels producing power that is equivalent to that of many competitor petrol engines with similar displacements. As a result, a driver can hold a gear much longer, without experiencing the sudden drop in power once the ideal rev-range has been exceeded.

Then browse the forums on this site: http://www.toyotadiesel.com

I've owned Toyota diesels in Canada, and I've ridden in Toyota diesels from old beater 4x4 pickups to luxury limousine vans in other parts of the world.
Toyota is HUGE into diesel.

So go ahead and hate diesel as long as you understand that it means hating Toyota at the same time.

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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/1/2008 8:32:58 PMView My AgentSpace
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French Automotive Researchers Published an Attack on Hybrid Cars:

"There is a general convergence of strategies towards promoting hybrid vehicles as the mid-term solution to very low-emission and high-mileage vehicles," the researchers assert, "this is largely due to Toyota’s strategy of learning the technology, while building up its own ‘quasi-standard’, thanks to its high-quality and reliability reputation and its high market share on the North American market." They add that, "Such a convergence is based more on customer perception triggered by very clever marketing and communication campaigns than on pure rationale scientific arguments and may result in the need for any manufacturer operating in the USA to have a hybrid electric vehicle in its model range in order to survive."

http://puregreencars.com/Green-Cars-News/Other-Green-Car-News/French-Researchers-Published-Attack-on-Hybrid-Cars.html

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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/1/2008 8:44:45 PMView My AgentSpace
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Huu76 says:

[Quote]Nowhere does it say gimmick.

If you're going to use a link and twist its words, expect me to read it, out you, and tell you what they actually say.[/Quote]


Perhaps you need to take a course in reading comprehension. Use the F3 function key to search for the word gimmick in these links in the AutoExpress article (near the bottom right next to the word verdict).

Honda Civic hybrid: gimmick

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221685/honda_civic.html


Lexus GS450h : gimmick

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221682/lexus.html


Main body of article:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221616/the_clean_machines.html

reply to this comment
DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/2/2008 2:15:04 AM
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I had no problem spotting the work "gimmick".
But I just cleaned my glasses ;)


StickShiftCamryStickShiftCamry - 6/2/2008 12:44:20 AM
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Hmm, pop a VTECH in a Honda around @ around 7,000 rpms or barely see 3,000rpm in a diesel. Whether any1 likes it or not, acceleration and economy work like magic in a GS450H and its RWD and it's 5 Sec. club.

reply to this comment
DieselRulesDieselRules - 6/2/2008 2:21:30 AM
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I can't count the number of V-TECH Civics I've blown away off the line in my '98 Beetle TDI. After a while, humiliating rice-rockets becomes tedious.
They can't come close to the acceleration of a turbo-diesel launched correctly!
(its tricky though, because the diesels tend to spin the tires easily if you aren't careful ... tossing the stock Michelins in favor of sticky Yokohamas cured that problem, but resulted in stretched and broken motor-mount bolts due to the extreme stresses on the drive-train ... and I still averaged 53 MPG consistently)


abcdabcd - 6/2/2008 6:52:19 AM
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"They can't come close to the acceleration of a turbo-diesel launched correctly!"

and you must change to 2nd gear about 20mph . 60mph in 3rd or even 4th in some diesels .

torque isn`t important and really power matters - formula one engines have less torque than volkswagen 2.0 TDI diesel engine but many times more torque on the wheels becouse of higher revs - gear ratios may be lower . that`s why cars with similar power not torque have similar acceleration , max speed etc
that`s physics



huu76huu76 - 6/2/2008 10:31:24 PM
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JRob,
Prove the 535d is just as fast as the GSh. All the links I've seen have it a full second slower.
the 535d also has the benefit of government subsidies thanks to German bribes.

Dieselrules,
Toyota diesels are just fine in SUVs as long as they have no more than 6 cylinders (same goes for German suvs). 8, 10 and 12 cylinders is just an appendage enhancement for the lowly euros.

As for missing gimmick. Yes, I missed it on the GS450h, all hidden away down in the corner. As for the other link,
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/221616/the_clean_machines.html
GIMMICK is mentioned once in the heading. Very convincing :s

The Prius has a trunk, the rest of the diesel sardine cans barely have a rear seat.
2008 Jetta int.vol = 91cu.ft and trunk = 16cu.ft
2007 Prius int.vol = 96cu.ft and trunk = 16.1cu.ft
http://www.automotive.com/2008/12/volkswagen/jetta/specifications/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2007/toyota/prius/specifications/index.html
So what if the Prius is made of aluminum? Where do you think steel and iron on the Jetta comes from?

Autobilde is a joke. The only way they can get hybrids to perform so poorly is by loading the trunks with cement. Everybody else has no problems making hybrids shine.

So how come nobody replied to the fact that the Prius pays its premium off in under a year now that diesel costs so much more in N.A. because we don't subsidize the stuff?

reply to this comment
huu76huu76 - 6/2/2008 10:41:56 PM
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The Jetta also outweighs the Prius and its batteries by 300lbs, and is slower and dirtier.

reply to this comment
huu76huu76 - 6/2/2008 10:49:43 PM
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turbospyder,
Have you not noticed that biodiesels have pushed up the price of food? I'd rather eat than drive.

Of course France will defend diesels, they've invested too much money into diesel. Look at their hybrid concepts, they're still just that.

Dieselrob,
By the way, what do you think of the Hydrogen7's trunk?
As for the GS450h's gimmick hybrid system which boosts performance, apparently BMW is planning to use the same gimmick system on their Formula1 cars.

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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/3/2008 1:24:27 PMView My AgentSpace
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huu, I just want to point out again that the AutoExpress article also labeled the Honda Civic hybrid as a gimmick - so the Lexus GS450h AND the Civic hybrid were each labeled as gimmicks. And gasoline engines also burn ethanol don't they?


gregsfcgregsfc - 6/8/2008 6:17:07 PM
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Huu76 is picking his reading carefully to ensure he gets biased articles that are working to destroy the image of biofuels.

Biodiesel has a net energy balance of 3.5 units of output for every unit of input (highest of any transportation fuel), while most of the edible content of such plants are still used for human and animal consumption. Biodiesel reduces lifecycle CO2 emissions by 78% in cars that already emit fewer levels of CO, HCs, and VOCs than comparable gas cars without adding the high-energy renewable fuel that also does not reduce fuel economy, while simultaneously reducing the environmental impact. This leaves only PM and NOx emitted more by previous-edition diesels that had to be designed to run on dirty fuel (500 ppm diesel fuel). The new, cleaner diesels will reduce PM by over 90% and NOx by over 70%. Adding B20 to the mix reduces emissions for such diesels lower than comparable gas guzzlers in nearly every category and reduces petroleum consumption by 50% or more.

Just because recent diesel fuel prices run a premium is no reason to discount all the long-term benefits of bringing this technology to the states.

Not all European countries tax gasoline more than diesel fuel. The U.K. has always taxed the fuels equally, yet diesel, new car market penetration is over 40%.

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huu76huu76 - 6/10/2008 10:29:11 PM
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Hybrids burn 1/2 the gasoline as a normal car.
E85 burns more gasoline plus ethanol while actually returning poorer mileage.
Or to put it simply, if you don'tburn gasoline, you don't produce emissions. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?
.5L gasoline < emissions than .75L gasoline and .25L ethanol.

Gregory,
the E85 Sierra gets 25% less mileage than the regular gasoline version. Look it up.
www.fueleconomy.gov

Autoexpress is pseudo European, so of course they're going to favour diesels.
If Europeans knew their oil came from the middle east and its the Americans that provide it, they'd probably switch to hybrids so they wouldn't need to import so much of it. Of course, it'd be harder to hate the Americans if they accepted these facts.

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huu76huu76 - 6/10/2008 10:32:39 PM
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Greg,
the UK has no reason to tax diesel more, they don't have any car manufacturers that benefit from diesel premiums. However, the Germans would be bankrupt if they suddenly lost $2000 on each car.

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