50 Votes

Consumer Report Removes Toyota and Lexus Models From Coveted Recommend List

Agent009 submitted on 10/16/2007 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 2:12:48 PM

108 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: blogs.consumerreports.org

After years of sterling reliability, Toyota is showing cracks in its armor, according to data from Consumer Reports' 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey.

By contrast, Ford's domestic brands have made considerable improvements.

The V6 version of the company's top-selling Camry, and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup, both redesigned for 2007, now rate below average in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rating. (This rating does not apply to previous model years.) In addition, the all-wheel-drive version of the Lexus GS sedan also received a below average rating. Because Consumer Reports does not recommend models with below-average reliability, these models no longer make CR's "Recommended" list.

The four-cylinder and hybrid versions of the Camry and hybrid, rear-drive version of the GS scored above average in reliability and will continue to be Recommended. Despite these problems, Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind only Honda and Subaru. Still, because of these findings, CR will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice. Typically, CR will only recommend a vehicle if the magazine has at least one year of reliability data for that specific model.

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Consumer Report Removes Toyota and Lexus Models From Coveted Recommend List

About the Author

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
— Agent009 (View Profile)

User Comments

So we are all fair weather fans? This is a big ding for Toyota which placed it all of its apple in one cart.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:32:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

No, it show that CR was crap for giving Toyota good reviews.
— justacarfan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:34:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Could be true.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:43:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Toyota removed its endorsements and CR is now pissed off. We all knew they were being bought off
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:55:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

many of us did not say CR was crap, but simply that reliability is not our top criteria for car purchases.

but for lexus in particular, we have been told that it's a main reason for purchase. what happens when that reason slips?
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 8:12:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

It (CR) is still crap if it admits that it gave freebies to Toyota simply because of history. This turn of events has clearly proven that CR's approach is not only unethical but stupid.

What kind of scientific method do these people practice??? Have (some) people been buying Toyotas based on freebies?

This shows what caliber of an organization is Consumer Reports. If they do not live by an unbiased, scientific, relevant and logical method of comparing products then they are worthless (at least to those that are not brainwashed or used to follow the crowd).
— MeanVulcan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 10:16:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

CR was crap then, and it's crap now. nothing changed. it wasn't crap just because it wasn't telling me what i wanted to hear.
— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 10:58:10 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Toyota dropped to 5th overall in the rankings following Honda, Acura, Scion, Subaru.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:24:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

"Despite Toyota's problems, the automaker still ranks third overall in reliability, behind only Honda and Subaru, with 17 models in the best list. Honda has seven with a smaller model lineup."

This from Consumers car blog.
— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:42:00 PM | | Votes: -6

Go Fiat!
— henbmw (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 11:55:18 PM | | Votes: 2

Still very high ratings despite this small blip.
— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:31:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -12

Not easy being #1 :-P
— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:33:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

This is true. If you are number one you will get picked on, no matter who you are.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:33:47 PM | | Votes: 1

# 1 in what?
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:44:38 PM | | Votes: -1

Even removing every positive review, recommendation, etc. given to Lexus by Consumer Reports, the numerous JD Power awards are still proof Lexus is a pretty reliable brand overall.

Morons such as yourself will no doubt be able to pull something out of your rectum to try and knock Lexus, so don't worry.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:44:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -13

I was responding to a post by some jerk which is no longer here.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:30:32 PM | | Votes: -2

Answer,

Just a thought... Why cant you debate something with civility and refrain from using insults in the hopes to elevate your arguments of 5th grade mentality. Please grow up and teach yourself the respect your mother obviously didnt.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:27:57 PM | | Votes: 5

I appreciate that you are trying to use big words and sound intelligent, but that is not nearly enough to hide your bias and automotive ignorance.

I use insults only when they are appropriate and accurate, not to "elevate my arguments". I let my opnions and facts speak for themselves.

One more thing...

Jackass!

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 5:21:26 PM | | Votes: -5

"Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on CR's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi."

This is what buyers should be more concerned about.
— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:36:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Trying to divert attention, are we?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:49:45 PM | | Votes: 2

oh really? Some of those German brands and their buyers must be shaking in their boots:

"The Audi A3, A4, and A6 are now all above average or better, as are some or all versions of the BMW 3, 5, and 7 Series."

Where's 06GS300 at? I brought him some homemade crow to eat. It's deliicious.
— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 5:46:12 PM | | Votes: 2

CR is pro-Japanese so if they are saying Toyota has even a few models with lowered reliability then that is surprising. Especially 4x4 Tundra. Not shocking but surprising. Obviously Toyota did not write CR a check recently....j/k!
— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:38:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

CR is pro-good quality. They only are reporting what people who actually own these cars are experiencing.
— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:45:21 PM | | Votes: -5

What? Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model.
— justacarfan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:29:48 PM | | Votes: 2

justacarfan- Basically CR extended Toyota "Credit" for new models based on past history. Well now they are rescinding the "Credit" due to the reliability issues they have endured over the last 2 years. So no more free rides.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:03:56 PM | | Votes: 1

haha.... I question the integrity of CR. This drop is HUGE and sudden. We have to ask ourselves why? Are these toyotas that much worse than the ones from the year before? Or are there special interests behind CR?

— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:20:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Just look at the recalls over the last three years by Toyota. That should be all of the proof you need to show they are just like everyone else.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:40:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

ahem...

"The Audi A3, A4, and A6 are now all above average or better, as are some or all versions of the BMW 3, 5, and 7 Series."

"In addition, the all-wheel-drive version of the Lexus GS sedan also received a below average rating."

Golf clap? Golf clap.
— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 7:23:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Yes...

Even The Mighty Must Fall - Eventually
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:46:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

What mighty? Lexus was never recognized as a world class Luxury brand.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:55:44 PM | | Votes: -3

Listen, YOU obviously hate Lexus, but all your Anti-Lexus propaganda does nothing to diminish the fact that since its inception, LEXUS has been the benchmark in many, many ways for luxury car manufacturers.

They (along with Infiniti) raised the bar, and everyone else scampered to improve their products as a result.
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:10:12 PM | | Votes: 2

That sure does apply to America the largest car market in the world. I am not arguing pure fact. Just stating that it is NOT recognized globally. Why re you arguing with what I never said? Pathetic
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:59:13 PM | | Votes: -1

Well I know my 05 Matrix XR AWD still ranks very high on the list for all categories.
— Whelan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:54:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

They're only talking about brand new platforms. The new Tundra has been full of surprises and recalls. Give Toyota a few years and they'll debug, they always do.

A few bad apples won't tarnish Toyota's bunch. If VW can keep selling unreliable autos, why can't Toyota?
— r_driver04 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:02:24 PM | | Votes: 2

Well I am not one of these Yota rules all people, but I do love mine (see post above). I figured it was inevitable for them to slump a little bit. But also look at how many new models they came out with in terms of trucks and SUVs, the Highlander, FJ Cruiser, Rav 4, Sequioa (coming soon), Tundra. I have always been a believer that first year new models are bugged anyways.

That and the new Tundra is Toyota's first attempt at a full size. But I'm not trying to defend anything just giving my opinions.

Although I am proud to see GM moving up the ladder here. More than I can say for Ford who needs to start importing some of their Euro cars over here, heck I'd take a new Mondeo XR5 over some Fusion anyday of the week. My next car though seriously will be involving consideration of GM, namely Saturn.
— Whelan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:36:51 PM | | Votes: 4

The Matrix... I won't even start with that one.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:51:22 PM | | Votes: -3

What's there to start on, I already know it's slow. But I have several great items. For one it's a clean looking car with nice lines and I get people telling me how they like how it looks all over. The storage room is second to none for the size. I have more capacity than my fiance's Jeep Liberty Renegade. Without the seats folded I fit 4 adults, a folidng table, grill, food, two coolers, extra clothing into the hatch and tailgated at a Jets game. This is a great tailgater!

Moving on, with the seats folded down, I easily held a full size kitchen table and the 4 chairs it came with. The car has slide tracks with moveable tie downs and straps that came with the car for tying items down and securing them. A lifesarver when you don't want things spilling over in the back.

I also have storage underneath the hatch floor, a nice plastic molding around the spare tire has compartments for extra storage for my emergency road kit and first aid. Plus the two compartments on each side of the hatch.

Moving forward the controls are very easy to use, the red LED controls are very stylish and the seating position no matter front or back has been complimented on for it's comfort, especially on long trips.

You get that sitting up high feeling without being ten feet off the ground. A leather wrapped steering wheel, high bolstered seats, moonroof, 6 disc in dash CD changer, fog lamps, lip kit (on my XR stock), 16" alloys, the front wheel drive that through a viscous differential engages the rear wheels when slip is detected, and 25-30 miles to the gallon with a 12 gallon tank giving me 300-350+ miles to one tank of gas!

At first I wasn't into this car, but the more I drive it, the more I love it, and the more people want to use it for trips and cargo cause it easily holds tons of stuff! And being only 26 and about to get married with a 50 mile round trip commute, I couldn't ask for a better car to deal with my day to day and driving in the Northeast.
— Whelan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 10:10:20 AM | | Votes: 2

Oh almost forgot, I also fit an 8' ladder with the hatch closed and a 10' piece of conduit, my front passenger seat folds flat!

I'm assuming by your name that you drive an S4 convertible. Unfortunately I don't get that luxury based on my salary an where I live (i.e. living expenses are pricey here). That and I don't have 2-3 other cars to use at my disposal, so I get something that like most average car buyers fills multiple needs at once. I'm not interested in doing 90+ all over town, or racing the kiddies in their Civics, I needed practicality and this had it all with style.
— Whelan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 10:14:13 AM | | Votes: 2

It's a fine car, but it definitely needs a redesign. Toyota and Pontiac have dragged this platform on for too long. The Corolla is even more dismal.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2007 12:11:38 AM | | Votes: 0

what's dismal about the corolla when it continues to INCREASE in sales DESPITE its "old" platform?

and the original matrix is a beautiful, clean design. (they messed it up with the current generation, imo!)
it has a clean roofline UNIQUE among wagons/suvs that makes it look like its rocketing along even when its parked!
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 1:49:02 AM | | Votes: 1

HAHAHAHA. Finally people are realizing they are being ripped off. And this amongst a time when Lexus supposedly has the best models ever.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:54:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Would be interesting to know the subscriber demographics. I can guarantee it has an Asian majority. Here is a link for partial democgraphic.

http://www.crresearch.org/CR_Results/images-downloads/Consumer%20Reports%20summary%2012-16-04.pdf
Notice the users prefer Japanese truck for cover.

— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:54:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

Please provide proof of Consumer Reports subscribers being mostly Asian.

Otherwise, your theory is just more conspiracy crap.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:37:08 PM | | Votes: 3

I can see it now... This article will set an all time record for number of Autospies Posts.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 2:59:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

As long as there are weiners such as yourself, you might be correct.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:32:00 PM | | Votes: 3

Pftttt. We are all to blame and certainly there are those more guilty than others but if you want to find the "answer" you need to look no further than a mirror.
— w209w114 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:55:55 PM | | Votes: -2

Mass production will indubitably lead to the state of utter confusion or chaos.

Quote by EL34

CR calls them how they sees them!
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:01:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

...
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 1:30:03 AM | | Votes: -2

so, EVERY mfgr. who uses mass production is in a state of confusion and chaos??? LOL!

btw, toyota has TRANSCENDED mass production and uses a system called LEAN PRODUCTION.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 1:36:52 AM | | Votes: -1

But past performance is the best predictor of future behavior.

Elementary psychology, and simple logic as well.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:34:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

lastly this article:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/autos/cr_reliability/index.htm?postversion=2007101613

notice the end of article:
'Consumer Reports' reliability rankings differ significantly from those released recently by J.D. Power and Associates. In the J.D. Power most recent "Vehicle Dependability Survey," five of the top ten brands were domestic and Buick tied Lexus for first place.

One major reason for that difference: J.D. Power only surveys owners of three-year-old vehicles. But Consumer Reports surveys its subscribers about vehicles from all three of the most recent model years, unless the vehicle has changed significantly. If the vehicle has changed in that time, only vehicles built since the change are included.

Consumer Reports' rankings are based on survey responses from subscribers to the magazine and its Website. Responses included information on almost 1.3 million vehicles.

Over the past few years, both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power surveys have showed similar trends, however, with domestic car brands improving in quality with European brands generally lagging behind.'
— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:14:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Let me tell you most buyers don't pay any attention to this crap,their magazine is just like our opinions they just don't matter.Mercedes Benz hit rock bottom and their sales are up year to date.People will continue to buy Toyota products no matter what CR says.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:29:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Who cares. Anyone who values Consumer Reports car surveys is a fool.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:44:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

The main point that usually gets missed by everyone is that their model is not to pick the 'best' vehicles there are, it is to pick the 'best car for the money'

If you understand that, then it makes more sense.

001
— Agent001 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 3:56:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Your right agent 001 that's why Toyota sells the most,they have the best value.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:34:27 PM | | Votes: -3

No longer. I'd much sooner get a Mazda or Honda than a Toyota.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 6:03:07 PM | | Votes: 0

only PARTLY true.

CR also rates cars on their mechanical/performance attributes vs. others in the same category, assigning a numeric score.

the reliability ratings are a separate category in their ratings.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 1:44:20 AM | | Votes: 1

Look if you keep writing that chocolate ice cream is the best pretty soon nobody cares to read it anymore, so you say vaniila is gainning ground for reader interest, doesn't mean choclate ice cream is bad and taste terriable?
— chuck717 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 4:12:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Well, it's Toyota that's vanilla, not the other way around. I just had to.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 6:04:03 PM | | Votes: 1

A probem is a problem. GM is running 5.3L V8s through their front drive trannys producing high torque/hp with no problem, and you probably think those trannys are garbage.
— Shredmo (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 5:29:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

A probem is a problem. GM is running 5.3L V8s through their front drive trannys producing high torque/hp with no problem, and you probably think those trannys are garbage.
— Shredmo (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 5:29:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

"On the other hand, the 4cyl hybrids are above average while the badass V6 are below average."

LOL. Badass. Very.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 6:05:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

i personally dont believe much of cr, reviews before different reasons, ,like they make no sense alot of the times. but there ratings and recomendations are based on consumers, i completely believe for the most part their PERSONAL opinion on the cars, are bogus like comparison tests, and things of nature, but its hard to argue with ownership. this isnt a surprise look reviews of the new camry, it has lost to the aura. and not just that but most reviews mention cheap interior quality, or some interior quality issues, since when have you heard that about a camry.
— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 6:07:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I cant' believe anyone reads CR, what a bunch of cheap welfare bastards. I would much rather read Robb Report's take on which vehicles to buy.
— supermoto (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 7:01:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!

:(
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 7:52:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

this is embarrassing.

we've been lectured a thousand times on autospies about the supreme reliability of toyota and lexus products. and told even more times that this is what makes lexus so superior.

of course, reliability is only ONE factor in car purchasing. but when your reputation is predicated on it, it's a disaster for the brand.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 8:10:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

MOST toyota and lexus products ARE STILL at the top of the heap with respect to reliability.

if you actually read the article, it is only a FEW specific new models that fell below toyota's usual standards. which will no doubt be remedied soon.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 1:58:29 AM | | Votes: -1

GS:
don't put words in my mouth.

as stated above, i have never dismissed CR as having no credibility. however, i have dismissed reliability as a leading decision maker for car purchases. and i stand by that. other factors are more important to me than a bit more reliability.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 11:30:27 AM | | Votes: -1

reliability is one thing that has been consistent about lexus and toyota. it's what both brand are based on. having a few models fail miserably in this area is still a disaster for the brands.

another example: if bmw made several models that handled absolutely below average for their respective classes that would be a disaster because it's something that every bmw is expected to do very well.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 11:33:37 AM | | Votes: -1

"Still, because of these findings, CR will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice. "

They don't want to screw up again do they?
— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 9:28:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

That doesn't make any sense. All Camry's were recalled for the same parts, there were no engine recalls and yet the V6's reliability is worse than the fours? If anything, all the Camry's should have been removed.

Oh well, I'd take the hybrid first anyway.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2007 10:37:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

there is a difference bet'n recalls and OWNER REPORTED reliability issues.

people forget, the new camry 3.5 v6 cranks out 268 hp. toyota may have tweaked the engine considerably more than usual, leading to more reliability issues.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 2:10:18 AM | | Votes: 0

Then why don't the same problems apply to the Lexus IS350, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Highlander, Toyota Solara, Lexus ES350, Lexus RX350 or Lexus GS350?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2007 12:13:46 AM | | Votes: 1

There has to be some truth to all of these reliability reports i guess, they still don't really factor when i go to buy a car though. I prefer to do my own research by talking to actual owners on forum's for the car i am interested in and get a first hand account of the car.
— Kinger (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 4:51:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Thanks for telling us how you really feel.

While I disagree with your belief, I think yours is a popular opinon here on autospies, but most don't have the courage to admit it.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 11:36:30 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Do you know how many Lexuses 001 has had??? And how many articles he writes on how amazing they are???
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2007 12:14:37 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I don't really have an opinion on the content of this post, but I have to say that model in the pic is amazing. We need more of this on Autospies.
— Hantra (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 9:30:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Yeah, that was the main reason I clicked on this article too. :D
— Kinger (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 9:43:58 AM | | Votes: 2

I told you all ;)
— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 10:10:46 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

this is what i have been saying all these years... TOYOTA IS CRAP...!!!!
— c36amg (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 1:51:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Could not agree more...
— Star (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2007 10:07:11 PM | | Votes: 1

If toyota is crap Mercedes must be vomit.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2007 4:08:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

so all of 3 toyota/lexus models are no longer CR recommended.

from the 4/07 CR auto issue--

percentage of toyota/lexus models recommended: 85
percentage of mb models recommended: 0

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/20/2007 3:17:30 AM | | Votes: 1

I don't know what to make of CR. I've had a Mercedes CLS 500 for three years now and it has been to the dealer for an oil change since I drove it off the lot. And it was one of the very first in the US which typically would be rife with issues. I can understand the Porsche rating since I've had new Cayman S for 5 months now and again only an oil change. I autocross this car, too. The thing with Porsche is that they forgo lots of frilly electronics and stick with the necessary stuff for performance.
— TybeeZ4 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2007 7:30:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

...
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 1:55:51 AM | | Votes: 1

what you need to understand, is they are rating PERCENTAGES and PROBABILITIES.

the "bad marks" they assign, indicate that between 4 and 5% (1/2 black dot) or 5% or more (full black) of owners of any given model they rate, reported problems.
the good marks indicate that between 1 and 2% (half red dot) or LESS THAN 1% (full red) reported problems.

so the difference between a full red and a full black, is a 500+% greater CHANCE of a problem.

at the same time, EVEN WITH a full black, there is a high chance you'd be amongst the 95% who have NOT experienced a problem.

due to the fact that most all mfgrs have been improving their quality, CR recently had to raise their standards. it used to be, the cutoff points for red and black dots were respectively, less than 2% and more than 15%.

they still do give the CLS a lot of black dots, for a car so expensive and new. just consider yourself LUCKY to not be amongst the unfortunate 5-percenters who HAVE had problems.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 2:09:10 AM | | Votes: 1

I dont think Toyota is crap. Also dont think CR's ratings suggest that either. I do think that Toyota is much more average than they have been built up to be. Their reputation as the quality leader simply isnt deserved and it is finally starting to show. Using CR's rating system, the difference between an above average car and average car for reliability is really nominal. Such that, if you are basing your purchase decision simply on the reliabity data from CR, you are a moron.

— the_gamper (View Profile)

Posted on 10/19/2007 2:18:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Toyotas and Lexus's aren't crap, but neither are the domestics, at least not anymore. Whats bugs me is the discrepency between CR and JD Powers. JDP shows domestics scoring pretty high, and in reality, they should be. I've worked for domestics for almost 20 years, todays GM products are second to none. Chrysler still has some issues to work out, but they are making up for those issues via lifetime warranties. Ford, hmmm, great new products, not my preference, but the value of some of their new product is really good. The Taurus, Edge, MKX all good values.
Toyotas new Camry looks cool, I'm sure they'll stand behind any issues, so you'll have some warranty work done, maybe the dealer will wash the car for you, big deal. The point is this, I believe CR is biased, but JD Powers probably is too on the other end of the spectrum. Toyota made a mistake launching their truck and Camry with problems. Lets see how GM does launching their new Malibu, for GM's sake, it better be flawless. If you haven't seen the new one, you will, and if you like Camrys, you'll love the Malibu, more car for 2/3 the price. I think GM is finally trying to go head to head in the car segment.
— IowaMark (View Profile)

Posted on 10/19/2007 11:34:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

"I believe CR is biased, but JD Powers probably is too on the other end of the spectrum."

one of the differences, is that JDP puts a lot of emphasis on their "initial quality" reports, which covers only the 1et 90 days of ownership.

CR focuses on longer term periods, up to eight years. (even 10, altho' they only publish on out to 8 yr old models.)
what JDP considers long term, only comprises 3 years.

"Toyota made a mistake launching their truck and Camry with problems."

i have yet to see their report, as i am not a suscriber and will have to wait until general publication of newsstand issues.
nontheless, i very much doubt the "problems" all this brouhaha is about, extends beyond JUST 4 or 5% of all vehicles involved. see my response to TybeeZ4 above.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 2:26:44 AM | | Votes: 1

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Consumer Report Removes Toyota and Lexus Models From Coveted Recommend List

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