DETROIT AUTO SHOW EXCLUSIVE-The plot thickens as rumors of new Lexus IS-F and 2008 BMW M3 escalate

Agent001 submitted on 12/21/2006 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 2:16 AM
from: www.autospies.com

[114] user comments | category: Spy News

Tags: Detroit Auto Show, Lexus, IS-F, 2008 BMW M3

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Detroit Auto Show

Lexus

IS-F

2008 BMW M3

DETROIT AUTO SHOW EXCLUSIVE-The plot thickens as rumors of new Lexus IS-F and 2008 BMW M3 escalate

The problem with rumors is that they’re rumors.

Until the curtain drops, the final hand is never revealed.

But that won’t stop us because it’s all about the excitement and anticipation of finding out what COULD happen BEFORE it DOES happen.

Case in point, Lexus IS-F vs. 2008 BMW M3.

Just when everyone thinks they have it figured out there is a twist just like in a great movie.

Well, in the case of these two cars, it looks like there are TWO twists this time.

The first twist comes right after we posted yesterday’s article ‘DETROIT AUTO SHOW: New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details..’.

At an un-named location inside 001’s new Lexus GS450 hybrid review car, a call comes in through the Bluetooth interface about the new IS-F.

The dialogue goes something like this…

001…this is Thornbird.

I just read your top story about the IS-F and although it’s pretty accurate, I just heard from an internal Lexus mole that the IS-F will not come out of the gate with only 380HP. Hold on to your hats because my contact says they are ready to rock the auto world in one fell swoop with an IS carrying, check this…500HP!!!

When I hear this I go silent because the rumors about the 2008 BMW M3 are that it will have just under 400HP.

I think to myself could Lexus absolutely blow BMW out of the water with this upcoming announcement by over 100HP?

It would SEEM so on the surface, but then I remember a little info tidbit we reported on a few months ago when we met personally with THE man who is in charge of ALL BMW engine decisions in Munich on our X3 trip.

Even though the wonderful German beer was flowing hard that night, 001 remembered that he said the new turbo technology allows them to get AT LEAST 100HP per liter.

So I put two and two together like any good spy would and I think to myself…If Lexus is really getting ready to announce a 500HP IS, then that means they have reliable intelligence that the next M3 has to be just under or right at 500HP!!!

WOW!!! To good to be true?

It would make sense because they both need to respond to the Audi RS4 and upcoming Mercedes CL63.

One last food for thought item…If these babies get 500HP, where does that leave the M5? Could a 600-700+HP refreshed M5 be just around the corner as well?

2007 should be an interesting year in the car wars…remember where you heard it first…AutoSpies.com!

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chewy - 12/21/2006 2:34:18 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

Lexus: 4.6 won't get 500 hp as per liter numbers are the same as with the Ferrari Enzo.
Lexus: 5.0 V8, won't get 100 hp per liter as the cylinders are to big.

If Lexus pulls it off, more power to them, but I will wait untill January 7 to see what happens, and then some to see if that power (400 or hp) actually does anything, and to see by how much Lexus overestimated the 0-60 time.

BMW: 500 hp out of a 4 liter turbocharged engine will be hard as well.

The M3 "shouldn't" debut until Frankfurt or Geneva at the earliest.

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chewy - 12/21/2006 4:26:38 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

A 4.6 liter 500 hp Naturally Aspirated engine won't be an engine for a sedan, definately not for a Lexus. This is a flat out 8,000+ RPM engine. It will get bad fuel economy and barely pass emmisions. So I doubt Lexus will go that way. The 5.0 liter V8 is too big to get 500 hp with ease. Like the much more reasonable Lexus fan said, 450 hp out of 5.0 liter V8 is pushing it. We will find out. If anything, Toyota has thrown money at F1 and its engine blow up every other race, Ferrari in F1 has 1 engine failure per year, so no, money ain't everything and I am sure that Ferrari spends just as much money, or more for its road going engine that Lexus will for the IS-F.

chewy - 12/21/2006 4:28:10 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

PS. An engine that is basically not designed to run 100,000 miles, something that Lexus won't do I am sure.

GS450h - 12/21/2006 10:12:15 AM

+4 Boost

It could be possible for the Yamaha-tuned Lexus 2UR-FSE (5.0L V8) to produce 100hp/liter if it uses the same valvetrain technology as the 180hp 1.8 liter 2ZZ-GE engine in the Lotus Elise.

1995e34 - 12/21/2006 11:05:27 AM

0 Boost

how would they get 500hp to the wheels in that small of car? you get to a limit at some point, where more power doesn't help anymore. you need to be able to apply that power to the road in a manner that doesn't leave your car in the ditch on every corner.

GS450h - 12/21/2006 3:15:38 PM

+1 Boost

MDalle,

While I agree that it is more challenging to make a 5.0 liter 100 hp/liter engine, it is not impossible within the realms of a production engine. Honda already makes a 2.2L four that revs to 8000rpm and makes 120hp/liter. If two of these engines were hypothetically joined at the crank it would result in a 4.4L liter V8 with the same specific output. The high inertia in "rev-up" and "rev-down" times is a function of the stroke of the engine, so if you increase the bore instead and use light weight pistons you could easily end up with a 5.0L with over 500hp. Granted, the forged light alloy components wouldn't come cheap but were not talking F1 budget either.

The new M3 V8 is based on the V10 architecture and is not an all-new development. The reason they don't dump the S85 V10 into it is because there would be no incentive to buy an M5 if the M3 was just as powerful but lighter and faster.

Ohh, and BTW: BMW seems to be banking on turbos for their future performance engines.

chewy - 12/21/2006 4:05:25 PMView My AgentSpace

-7 Boost

If two of these engines were hypothetically joined at the crank it would result in a 4.4L liter V8 with the same specific output.

You said it yourself, hypothetically. Hypothetically we can travel at just about the speed of light.

GS450h - 12/22/2006 2:53:42 PM

+1 Boost

Mdalle, is your degree from Mickey Mouse U? You better review how much power you reliably extract from Toyota's production engines. For example..

In the late 90's Rod Millen built a streetable hot rod with a 430hp 4.0L Lexus V8. The Lexus Street Rod is based on a '32 roadster and was created to showcase a specially modified Lexus GS 400 V8. The Lexus Street Rod produces 430 horsepower at 8,200 rpm with stock compression. This is before VVTi.

http://www.millenworks.com/html/concept_vehicles.htm?&navItemIndex=18

And this is what Lexus V8s are ultimately capable of.

1000 horsepower @ 9000rpm

From Lexus of Australia

http://www.lexus.com.au/about/newsdetail.asp?view=news&page=2004&id=145

Come again? You don't think Lexus can get 500hp from a 5.0L?

Enough said.

SupraNeverBack - 12/21/2006 3:16:07 AM

+5 Boost

wow, 500hp!? 8500RPM 5.0L v8? I think 450hp will be more reasonable for fuel economy (20city/27hwy).

500hp IS-F, some no-sleep nights for some fans here. :)

Maybe BMW will throw their v10 into M3 because their v8 has no chance to output anything close to 450hp. ^0^

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chewy - 12/21/2006 3:25:12 AMView My AgentSpace

-4 Boost

450 out of 5.0 is more reasonable but is still pushing it, and it won't get 20/27, even on the current EPA test.

Heyhuub - 12/21/2006 6:43:44 AM

+1 Boost

450HP out of a 5.0 should be pretty easy.
And IF BMW is going to Turbocharge their 4.0 V8 then 500Hp is a walk in the park.
But i doubt the BMW will be getting that much HP, i still believe they will put out some 400-430HP

Rupert - 12/21/2006 8:44:48 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

the IS 250 gets 20 city 29 highway....how will a 4.6 or 5 litre get the same numbers?

AUTO_UNION - 12/21/2006 3:28:57 AM

+3 Boost

Let's wait and see.

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nutty_2006 - 12/21/2006 7:14:08 AM

-1 Boost

And if BMW is beaten on the engine power again, wait the following year BMW will retune and turbo their engines again, making the first year model's engine obsolete just like what happened to the 330i.

Did you guys think BMW really intended to bring the 2007 3-series coupe and the sedan as a "335" with turbo engine? Its kinda hard for an R&D cost perspective for them to work so hard on designing a magnesium/aluminum engine and just use it for 1 year model, and then discontinue it and replace it with a (tried and tested?) turbo engine (how long was the development on these new turbo engines? anyone know? hope it has longevity).

Well, at least on the bright side BMW is quick to make the change even if it cost them money to "rush" a new upgrade just so that they stay on top.

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1995e34 - 12/21/2006 11:08:09 AM

-2 Boost

you really don't think bmw has been testing turbos for decades?

cynic - 12/21/2006 8:44:51 AM

+3 Boost

Reading this article it like buying a lottery ticket, it lets you dream.

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1995e34 - 12/21/2006 11:11:48 AM

-1 Boost

even rumors like those might top this crap.

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tmoney1188mit - 12/22/2006 2:18:00 AM

+5 Boost

Mdalle,

I am a Mechanical Engineer, (Undergraduate Mechanical Engineering M.I.T. ; Ph.D. Mechanical Engineering M.I.T.) technically uzj100 is correct it is actually possible to fease the enigines at without breaking the bank, while still producing ample power.

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1995e34 - 12/22/2006 8:54:44 AM

+4 Boost

mdalle, master is 2-year graduate degree, and phd is 4-year graduate degree (all after 4 or 5 year undergraduate degree).

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1995e34 - 12/22/2006 8:57:41 AM

+3 Boost

tmoney1188mit, congratulations on having two badasss degrees from the best engineering school in the universe. much respect.

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mkk21 - 12/22/2006 1:44:04 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

I'm sorry MDalle...but what exactly is a "technical engineer"? Maybe the term is lost in translation but I've heard of mechanical, electrical, civil, and aerospace engineer but never heard of a technical engineer. Does it come with a PE status? I've heard that Europe especially is strict with the term "engineer" unless you have a degree and possibly pass an exam.

Being a civil engineer myself, I know the board of professional engineers here in the states do not like you using the term "engineer" at all unless you aquire a degree in engineering and pass your PE Exam. But unfortunately the courts didn't see it that way and allows anyone to use the term "engineer" but not allowed to use the term "professional engineer." But the board did win a judgement against microsoft to stop using the term "software engineer."

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mkk21 - 12/22/2006 2:07:18 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

I really hope when you do refer to "technical engineer" you are not speaking in regards to an engineering degree from a technical institute, like ITT tech or something similar. That is one of my biggest pet peeves when someone from those schools call themselves an engineer. It would be like calling your local mechanic a doctor and him having that same status as a medical doctor because he fixes and makes cars all better.

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1995e34 - 12/22/2006 11:07:08 PM

+1 Boost

if you get an engineering undergraduate degree in under 4 years in the united states, you've slept with someone very powerful

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AdmiralT20 - 12/21/2006 8:47:08 AM

-1 Boost

This is ridiculous.
Please post something intellectual- based on facts.

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sold2early - 12/21/2006 8:51:27 AM

+1 Boost

This is a good thing; I was afraid there was going to come a time when the Lexus and BMW guys would have nothing to argue about.

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TimE - 12/21/2006 8:54:14 AM

+1 Boost

To Nutty: development of N54 (bi-turbo with direct injection), and N53 (direct injection) started simultaneously with N52 (basic NA I6) engines - back in 2000, yet N53 & N54 needed longest development & testing time.

Btw, 328i, X3 3.0si, Z4 3.0i, Z4 3.0si, X5 3.0si still use N52 engine !!! - so the engine wasn't discontinued. Only 335i gets new N54 engine (and so will 535i in the Spring. And yes: decision to replace 330i with 335i (530i with 535i) in US market was a marketing decision - due strong competition. While in eg. Europe 330i still exists, and will get N53 engine with DI soon; 335i is just an additional model here in EU.

According ///M: M cars are not just about HP numbers - it's a whole package. Be reasonable. M3 will easily beat the competition due lower weight and thus better weight/power ratio. Also go and drive ///M or a competition. ///M is much more thrilling to drive & brings you more joy than similar cars from competition.

Also: ///M has more than 30-year old tradition, and a lot of know-how. It can't be beaten so easily. Look at Audi & MB - their are trying to do that for a long time with AMG & RS models but failed: therefore eg. AMG went different way - with more torque-heavy cars than pure racing machines.

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stone - 12/21/2006 9:22:26 AM

-5 Boost

The IS might come with 500 HP but it still has no room and only has two pedals, so no deal for me. I don't believe that BMW will try to one-up Lexus, at least not right now. I've read more than once that BMW tiers the performance of their M cars based on price meaning they will not make their entry level M car faster than the pricier M5 OR M6, and putting 500 HP in a lightweight M3 would do just that. That's the reason BMW will not make the M7 because it would be the new top of the line M car and it would need to be faster than the M5/M6. With the weight of the 7, that would take some serious HP. I'm just waiting to see what Infiniti comes up with for the G35, its still my favorite car in this class and I know Infiniti will not go out without a fight since big HP is one of their key selling points, I can't wait for the 3-way comparison, its a great time to be an enthusiast............

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GS450h - 12/21/2006 10:17:43 AM

-3 Boost

Magazines.. shMagazines...I can already see Car & Driver say that the Lexus IS-F took 304 feet to brake from 60 and that the steering is numb. Although it beats all the other contenders in the Vehicle category it gets 0s in the subjective scores. Yawn.

weaponX - 12/21/2006 9:28:41 AM

-1 Boost

500 HP on a little 3 --- I'm speechless!

If there's any truth to this, I think I'll hold off trying to negotiate with my BMW dealer for an M5. But, I doubt these rumors will come true. There’s really no point in having an M5 or M6 if there’s a 500 HP M3.

I don't understand why people are trying to compare the M3 to a Toyota on steroids. The M3 is much more than just massive HP numbers. Lateral agility is also very important, and like HP is just one part of an overall balanced package. Besides I don’t think Toyota can put a 4.6 V8 on an IS without killing the handling.

I guess one way to get attention on a new car is by trying to pit it against the benchmark, which looks like what Toyota is doing here.

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99gs400 - 12/21/2006 10:02:22 AM

+5 Boost

LETS WAIT AND SEE FOLKS , NO FLAME WARS !!!! The M5 V10 putting out 500HP NO WAY IN HELL a M3 gonna have 500HP for a cheaper price. My guess is 380HP-420HP tops, remember i work for BMW ? If Lexus IS-F can push close to 500HP in such a little car, more power to them
WAY TO GO LEXUS !!!!

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JRobUSC - 12/21/2006 10:15:43 AM

0 Boost

it wouldn't surprise me if BMW came out with 450hp+ in the new M3. I think they've been waiting to tweak the car based on the competition and that's probably a big reason why they haven't released any official figures on the car despite two years worth of the vehicle being "spied" everywhere. I am certain that BMW would like to one-up the 420hp Audi RS4, and if they're thinking ahead the new C63 AMG is expected to put out 475hp, the new Super CTS-V or whatever it's called is supposedly going to have 500, and who knows what the IS-F is really going to have. They might not care about having the MOST hp in class, but I doubt they're going to be content having the least on their brand new M3.

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Brembo - 12/21/2006 10:30:26 AM

-1 Boost

I don't know about you all but driving a 500-700hp doesn't seem to good. Head jerking eveytime you tap the pedal.

I'm happy at 300hp. I will never use up those kind of horses.

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AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 11:11:32 AM

-2 Boost

Everyone has been complaining about lack of feeling and the lexus IS lacking "soul." Well maybe 500 hp at the tip of the pedal will do the trick. A smack on the back of the head every time you accelerate and the violent rumbling of a 500hp v8 will numb your ass. No more complaints about how the car feels. Now to take care of the soul part...if only we could measure soul, maybe we should ask car and driver what baseline they used to measure "soul."

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Lexus - 12/21/2006 11:20:17 AM

0 Boost

Wow.. this is really crazy if Lexus could truly put 500 hp in the V8 IS-F. It would be even crazier if this is true, and still have the M3 or RS4 peformance at the same time. Guess we all have to wait and find out, I hope all of this, is true.

Lexus

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Lexus - 12/21/2006 11:25:42 AM

-2 Boost

AntiFanboy, that a good one bro:)

If this is true, you know all the German fanboy will complaint, oh how it just an over price Toyota. No it not, because if you says that, than I can say how the M3 is just an over price 335i, or the RS4 is an over price A4. No... we all know this is "NOT" true. The Lexus IS-F,M3, RS4, C-class AMG will have more hp and engineer put into it.

Lexus

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answer - 12/21/2006 11:26:40 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Funny how some people are already prepping themselves should the ISF be faster than the new M3 with that whole "prestige" thing again.

I wish everyone knew that using the Euro "prestige" defense is just as bad as constantly harking back to "reliability" when defending Lexus.

Drop it! These rumours are exciting no matter which brand you favor. Let's enjoy and not argue for once.

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EL34 - 12/21/2006 11:30:48 AM

-1 Boost

Now that the new Toyota Corolla has many of the design ques of the Lexus IS it seems the fire is cooling off on the more expensive Lexoid.

Drivers will choose the BMW over the IS, all day long.

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Loki123 - 12/21/2006 11:55:03 AM

-2 Boost

No clue why everyone is even entertaining a 500 hp M3 or IS-F...not gonna happen...

Let's talk BMW "heritage" and play the numbers game...

M3 numbers
------------------------
1986 E30 - 2.3L = 195hp
1995 US M3 - 3.0L = 240 hp
1996 E36 EVO - 3.2L = 321 hp
2001 E46 US - 3.2L = 333hp
2008 M3 - 400-420hp max!
:)

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Loki123 - 12/21/2006 1:36:01 PM

+1 Boost

Mdalle,

I'm not European so I speak in North American terms amigo.

matt635 - 12/21/2006 2:28:59 PM

+1 Boost

better get the crayons out then...

AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 12:15:19 PM

+1 Boost

Is that a fact? or are you purely stating your opinion on which car you would buy/drive/dream about driving?

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AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 12:16:53 PM

+1 Boost

that was a response to EL34's comment BTW

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AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 12:24:49 PM

0 Boost

I wonder if these vehicles will make an appearance at the D.C. autoshow?

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webguy - 12/21/2006 1:00:21 PM

+1 Boost

Given the lofty prediction of the article, I’ll make my own…

500hp is supercar territory. I have little doubt Lexus has been testing 500hp motors, but it will be reserved for the "LF-A" production car debut in Tokyo. For this round, both BMW and Lexus will put an emphasis on high redlines, and the availability of torque at low RPMs (Which, at this level, is more important than higher HP). Lexus will merely try to roughly match the RS4/M3 output, and claim "value" from being well over $10K less than either of them.

BMW’s trump card (beside the right to put "M3" on the back) will be their "everything by wire" system. Translating into an even greater kinetic control for the driver.

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Yonder7 - 12/21/2006 1:00:42 PM

0 Boost

Do not mix CL63 against M3, RS4, IS500F, they are completely diferent and the have a weight of almost 5000 pounds.

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AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 1:05:07 PM

+2 Boost

We have to ask ourselves in light of this 500 hp intel. Is there a possiblity of engine sharing between the Halo car LF-a and IS-F? The only difference being the LF-A will be much lighter, tighter, and limited to a higher top speed

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answer - 12/21/2006 2:32:23 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

That's why even though both of these cars are exciting, to me they aren't near as revolutionary as the all-electric Tesla sportscar is.

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matt635 - 12/21/2006 1:10:06 PM

0 Boost

Hartge just dropped a 550hp tuned version of the V10 into the E92 and it's slower than an M5... you have to wonder if there is any point to a 500hp M3.

I'd rather BMW didn't focus on playing the numbers game - it's a stupid one, and at the end of the day it doesnt mean a great deal to most people. The M V10 is a fantastic engine, and it serves a purpose within the range, but I don't think that's what the M3 is about (or ever has been).

If I was a gambling man my money would be on the new M3 being naurally aspirated with about 410-420hp, being marginally slower in a straight line than the RS4, but no-one (except germannut and s4cabriofoxone) actually caring because it will still be an absolutely stunning car to drive.

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AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 1:17:38 PM

0 Boost

I agree with you Matt. I believe the twin turbos on the 335 was just a hp "catch up" move on BMW's behalf. The next model M3 will once again set the benchmark for performance vehicles on that price level. One thing is certain, it will be a bloody battle between the m3 and is-f

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07mcs - 12/21/2006 3:27:22 PM

-4 Boost

you forget RS4

1970toyotamarc - 12/21/2006 2:17:22 PM

-1 Boost

I just love how scared all the German car fanboys are. It's hilarious.

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AntiFanboy - 12/21/2006 2:52:47 PM

0 Boost

I wouldn't say scared...more so threatened. Change is hard to cope with. It's competition folks, competition is good for the consumer.

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JUGNU - 12/21/2006 3:28:33 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

500BHP IS-F.Can we say M3 eater.Class leader.

On differnt note, Just imagine how fast will be the new LF-A.It will be in the Ferrari/Lambo territory.

Bring it soon Lexus.

JUGNU

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matt635 - 12/21/2006 3:53:32 PM

-3 Boost

JUGNU <- The GermanNut of the Lexus Brand

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M53R - 12/22/2006 12:21:44 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

haha nice1 man! I wonder where germannut is?

Terminal10 - 12/21/2006 3:58:44 PM

-1 Boost

I have read most of the comments here and lets say for the sake of arguement (for this crowd is there anything else) that 001's story and conclusions are correct are we just talking straight line acceleration? I mean Lexus is a nice car and everything but do they have what it takes to hang in the twistys with an "M"? I cannot say but I can say the M3 comes out at the end of BMW's car cycle for a reason so they have plenty of time to learn from their previous lineup and apply what works best for the car. Also remember in evenly matched power weight becomes a major player in who is faster.

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SupraNeverBack - 12/21/2006 4:36:57 PM

+1 Boost

How could you know IS-F will not handle as well as (or better than) the coming M3?

And what if IS-F weights less and has 50+ more hp than M3?

chewy - 12/21/2006 5:38:27 PMView My AgentSpace

-6 Boost

You know how much the IS-F weight and how much horsepower it has?

You know how much horsepower the new M3 has and how much horsepower it has?

You do know that Lexus vehicles usually handle horribly?

M53R - 12/22/2006 12:23:20 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

very sensible.....

S4cabriofoxone - 12/21/2006 6:47:53 PMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

This would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure you're a little Lexus-biased now that you drive a GS on a daily basis.

I'd just think that would be too much power for such a little sedan. 450hp sounds about right- after that, all the automakers could do would either be A) Increase power and make the cars heavier or B) Stagnate power and lower the weight. Makes sense to me. I'd think they would have to do A- not only because of the power war, but because of the constant flow of new luxuries into these cars.

I think you meant C63 AMG, not CL, by the way.

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huu76 - 12/21/2006 7:16:22 PM

-2 Boost

Hey Foxy,
I see Matt knocked America and claimed you guys write with crayons. How about defending your nation, or are you a Eurotrash sellout?

MDalle,
I see Europeans can only make high powered cars if pollution standards aren't a problem. Well, in N.America they are.

chewy,
You talk about high horsepower, then say the car won't handle well. All that power is only good for going in straight lines. In any case, I'll bet the Z06 Corvette will take either car to the cleaners and it only has 400hp. The numbers game is only to prove who has the least between their legs.

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chewy - 12/21/2006 7:39:51 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

What are you talking about. All high powered European cars will meet all US emmisions. I am just saying that a (Lexus or any brand) 4.6 liter V8 pushing 500 hp will be at the limit for emmisions and reliability.

The RS4 handles excellently because of its 4 wheel drive (it is a bit on the heavy side though) The RS4 is just about as fast as the Corvette with only 20 more hp and much more weight.

chewy - 12/21/2006 8:46:13 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

The Corvette Z06 has 500 horsepower.

S4cabriofoxone - 12/21/2006 9:36:28 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I didn't read any of the comments... I Just posted one myself!

Why are you suddenly picking on me? Did you have a bad day at work?!?

MunichRob - 12/21/2006 9:35:01 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Woah your getting me all worked up 001! I like your theory, it makes sence. This is like a repeat of the IS & 3-series release, with Lexus packing a then ridiculous amount of power under the hood in hopes to topple BMW.

Though the IS didn't topple the 3 by anymeans, it definitly won the horsepower war taking some shine away from the 3-series release. BMW isn't about to let that happen with one of their greatest jewels, the fan favourite M3.

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AmazingBimmer - 12/21/2006 11:45:38 PM

-10 Boost

haha... lexus vs. bMW.... no contest.. the Bimmer wins every class, every time. its liek little children against goliath.. like th epunky Rs4, which is worse than the lexus.

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S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 12:29:08 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Wow you never shut up! Gawd, you wake up every morning and think to yourself "I hate Audi, I hate Audi, I hate Audi! Audi sucks! I hate Audi! I am king and anyone who questions me is an idiot! I drive a BMW 118i, and I HATE AUDI!!!"

MunichRob - 12/22/2006 4:44:31 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

^^ ^^

Explains the late posting.

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AmazingBimmer - 12/22/2006 9:06:47 AM

-6 Boost

jmr.. i'll trust your crappy judgement in cars was because you were drunk... S4..whats your excuse? Stupidity.? and its a 550 sport, you numnuts!

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S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 11:26:35 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

Ha, everyone hates you.

Yeah, I'm an idiot.

OH NO I BOUGHT AN S4 INSTEAD OF AN M3!!! I'M AN IDIOT AND I CAN'T AFFORD A BMW!!! OH NO!!! MY EGO DOESN'T PURCHASE CARS FOR ME!!!

BM3W - 12/22/2006 11:57:20 AM

+1 Boost

There is no plot. In my opinion Toyota is throwing there money away. It's very unlikely the Lexus F will convert many M3 potential buyers. For example, I'm poised to trade my 2002 M3 in for the 2008 model as soon as it hits the show room floors. And you know what, I have not considered the Lexus F for one second. Everyone on the planet knows that the BMW M3 is the ultimate sport coupe. And soon to be the ultimate Sedan as well. It's just another desperate from Toyota to gain some fast cash buy imitating BMW's business model. BMW financier's should figure out a way to bill the Japanese for cribbing there business model

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AntiFanboy - 12/22/2006 1:13:55 PM

-1 Boost

In response to BM3W.

You speak as though your own ideals represent those of every other potential m3 buyer. The fact that you are basing this opinion on nothing gives me the right to say that you have little to zero understanding of what you're saying. So get a pen & pad, jot this down. "I BM3W, a devout BMW fanboy, would like those who have read my post to understand that I am highly biased. Also, my exclusion of any concrete data to justify my findings should encourage you to not take me seriously. thanks, BM3W"

GS450h - 12/22/2006 3:01:26 PM

+2 Boost

BMW should be paying American manufacturers for ripping off their idea of putting a powerful engine in a small sedan. It all started with the 1960's muscle cars.

answer - 12/22/2006 12:56:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Since we are arguing over which of these un-released models will be better, we might as well start the conversation on the 2013 versions.

I hear the 2013 ISF will have 700hp and include an optional sushi bar/glove box setup.

The 2013 M3 will have 750hp and have an auxillary jax to plug in an accordian.

Discuss.

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Rupert - 12/22/2006 5:02:07 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

an accordion eh....hmmmmm.
i feel this could be a good idea.

chewy - 12/22/2006 6:00:34 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

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