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DETROIT AUTO SHOW: New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details..

Agent001 submitted on 12/20/2006 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 2:32 PM
from: www.autospies.com

[252] user comments | category: Spy News

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Tags: Detroit Auto Show, Lexus, IS-F

Tag Links: Detroit Auto Show, Lexus, IS-F

DETROIT AUTO SHOW: New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details..

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KeyserSoze - 12/20/2006 3:01:05 PM

+5 Boost

let the games begin!

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silverarrow2 - 12/20/2006 4:35:17 PM

+8 Boost

Indeed.

justbrown - 12/20/2006 3:06:46 PM

+8 Boost

I think if Lexus is actually focusing on performance, they may have a chance to be a true performer in this field. Resources aren't a problem for them. If anything, it will just help the rivals to offer more performance without a huge increase in price for the next generation. Should be interesting none the less.

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silverarrow2 - 12/20/2006 4:38:10 PM

-1 Boost

Now if they can do something about the every-day look.

Not that the new Bimmers look that good, but at least they 3s look more manly than IS.

lexusis350 - 12/20/2006 6:32:28 PM

-2 Boost

What?!? The 3-Series design sucks next to the IS.

chewy - 12/20/2006 3:16:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

We will wait and see what it brings to the table. Judging by previous Lexuses it won't bring much in performance. But Iwill give them the benifit of the doubt until I see some performance tests.

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silverarrow2 - 12/20/2006 4:38:55 PM

+1 Boost

AGREE!!

AlexTx - 12/20/2006 3:25:29 PM

+3 Boost

It better have a 6 SPEED MANUAL if it even thinks of competing....that's what's hurting the C Class the most!

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Bill - 12/20/2006 8:52:45 PM

+4 Boost

The handling of AMG's is underrated. On a daily drive from A to B or on the track, the handling qualities of your typical AMG car are very good.

When you compare it to a BMW M product however, things change. AMG doesn't build cars for the purist driver, BMW M does. Both appeal to different target groups.

2JZSoarer - 12/20/2006 9:28:01 PM

-4 Boost

I bet "if" the IS-F out performs the M3 in acceleration and handling,you guy would still bash Lexus!!!
You guys say that Lexus does not have any racing heritage,then what about the Rolex Series,I always see the Lexus killing the BMWs in that series.
plus the engine will be tuned by Yamaha and they have tons of racing heritage(Note:Toyota owns part of Yamaha so that does not make the engine out sourced)!!This car will have good stopping power with the big Brembo brakes,and it will have a modified version of the LS 8 speed trans.I sure hope it comes with some nice BBS wheels!!!

Bill - 12/21/2006 7:38:58 AM

+6 Boost

You guys say that Lexus does not have any racing heritage,then what about the Rolex Series,I always see the Lexus killing the BMWs in that series.


Laughing out loud. You call that "racing heritage"? Don't even begin to compare Lexus' "racing heritage" to the racing heritage of Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Bentley, Porsche, Maserati, Alfa Romeo etc.

The truth is, Lexus has no racing heritage. Participation in this Rolex Series means nothing for Lexus. Racing heritage is built up through motorsport success, innovation etc. Read a book about the racing heritage of the European brands, then come back and say you're sorry for even claiming Lexus has a "racing heritage". They don't.

silverarrow2 - 12/20/2006 4:40:46 PM

-2 Boost

You right, but couldn't they have picked a better symbole or name than F**king "F"?

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Designer1 - 12/20/2006 3:26:55 PM

-9 Boost

This is very interesting UNLESS BMW goes with the V10 engine in the M3 then the cars won't be competitors anymore.

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1995e34 - 12/20/2006 3:30:16 PM

+6 Boost

a v-10 would destroy the balance of the m3. a v-8 is pushing it as it stands.

Wazz - 12/20/2006 4:35:37 PM

+2 Boost

BMW won't produce a car that has a lower series number that is faster than a model above it (ie. the M6 is faster than the M5 which is faster than the M3) besides the CSL, so i cant see BMW putting the V10 in the 3.

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 3:27:11 PM

+5 Boost

same damn post, same damn picture, same damn arguments...

agent001, i beg for some auto news. the cat fights are getting very old. i guess it must be a slow week.

we all know there's a powerful lexus coming.

i feel like bill murray in grondhog day



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mostafa - 12/20/2006 3:27:23 PM

+4 Boost

yeah, no.

bmw has become the pinnacle of automotive performance within the m3 segment. do you really think they are going to roll over and play dead just because some company that made fortune and fame by copying the old designs of it's competitors is coming out to challenge them?

i don't think so.

i have no doubt at all the the is-f will be an amazing car. it will definitely be something to behold once it comes out; but, if a rookie wants to play ball with an all-star pro, then the rookie is bound to get schooled. needless to say, the rookie has a few tricks it can show the pro in return.

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SSP350 - 12/20/2006 4:04:54 PM

+1 Boost

I think their first attempt will be a very good one. You see the difference with Lexus and German automakers is that they just don't reproduce vehicles if they don't it will change the market one way or another. Granted, they've tried and fail numerous times. Now, the M3 and RS4 were exclusive vehicles in their own right, but that's because there was really nothing else to compare it to. Of course, the IS-F will be a contender regardless, its a performance division, right? If its not, then whats the M Series from BMW and S from Audi is?
How good the car will be is really up to personal preference. Knowing Lexus, they're geared more toward luxury than anything else because thats what Luxury line is, regardless if its just the entry level luxury.

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vcowman - 12/20/2006 3:36:47 PM

+2 Boost

I would like to see them try.

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vladyxa - 12/20/2006 3:41:07 PM

-2 Boost

"... We also hear it will have close to 400HP and become a true challenger to the next BMW M3, for the first time in history..."

So what? Until it actually have close to 400HP all these is blah-blah-blaaaaaah.

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cynic - 12/20/2006 3:55:57 PM

+2 Boost

I seem to recall that back in 1989, people were saying that Lexus would not be a true challenger to the established marques when Lexus first appeared. I remember when all the magazines and reviewers were floored to see that Toyota had produced an automobile that had set new standars for the segment. For people to say that this will never happen with the M3 is the exact same thing that people said back in 1989. I guess that history does have a tendecy to repeat itself.

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silverarrow2 - 12/20/2006 4:43:53 PM

-3 Boost

The Germans (Benz) were the one making these claims.

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:08:31 PM

+2 Boost

lexusis250, officially the dumbest comment ever. read a book. benz deserves more respect than anyone in the industry by far, and they're not even my favorite make. nobody comes close.

as far as i'm concerned, they've produced one questionable model: 1st gen. ML

the rest of their cars are icons

Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:31:06 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

i agree 1995e34

lexusis350 - 12/20/2006 6:36:22 PM

+1 Boost

I think sexylexusdude finally got banned. All of his comments have been deleted.

S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 12:45:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

This is quite different, you must realize.

Lexus has always stood out as a no-hassle, LUXURY brand.

Toyota's magic wand will not simply create a perfect performance sedan.

In all sincerety, it takes a lot more precision (and practice) to create a perfect performance sedan than it does to take a perfect luxury sedan. Ask BMW, ask Audi. The RS4 and M3/M5 took years to perfect.

S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 12:47:05 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I must add- the A8L took only one generation to perfect!

webguy - 12/20/2006 4:01:33 PM

+8 Boost

Toyota does have a well deserved reputation of trying until they get it right. They’ve been deservedly laughed at during nearly every market entrance they’ve made (T100 anyone?), and have since quelled the critics just about every time... (who’s building their truck manufacturing in Texas now?)

However, they have yet to quell the laughter among the high-performance customers. It will no doubt compete with 0-60 and 60-0 numbers; but there’s more to it than that. ..

The transmission: I hear rumors it will use the 8-speed from the LS. I hope they don’t repeat their single most catastrophic mistake from the 350 by doing this. The “Performance car = Manual Control” equation has baffled even the brightest executives at Toyota to this day who can’t get their head around the fact that some people like driving; and even enjoy bringing their cars to the brink of sideways insanity. 8 speeds is too many gears to control manually… the availability of an “old school” 6-speed manual may be the single most make or break decision for this car.

At the limits: The current IS ride is best described as “compliant.” It listens well, but doesn’t laugh at you and ask “is that all you got?!” when you reach the limits like the German competition does.

Seats: Thigh support, bolstering adjustments?

The senses: With 400HP and 60K price tag, I’m not looking for sound-deadening sun visors… I don’t’ want anything deadening. I want road feel, engine rumble and the putrid yet satisfying smell of molten rubber.


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answer - 12/20/2006 4:31:52 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I think the time has finally come for Lexus to say "F that" to the M3 always staying in that number 1 spot.

This should be really nice!

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chewy - 12/20/2006 4:43:15 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Serioulsy how do you know. Lexus might very easily lay down a goose egg with its IS-F. How do you know? Lexus has no history of sporty vehicles. Absolutely none, zip, zero nada. Just like you Lexus fanboys (and Toyota) assume that some cars are unreliable because of some history, EVERYONE can assume that Lexus can't build a sporty vehicle because of their HISTORY. Treat others like you want to be treated. And I do have proof, take a look at the braking distances of the LS 460 and GS 450h, attrocious. Now, of course Lexus could have a very sporting vehicle with the IS-F, but so far they haven't shown anything in their history that they can build a sporty vehicle.

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mostafa - 12/20/2006 5:00:48 PM

+4 Boost

wow, okay.

(1) what does the m3 have that the lexus doesn't

heritage. bmw's m division knows what it's doing. it doesnt have to go and start from scratch.

(2) m3 is overrated, as are "ALL" german cars? have you driven an m3? please explain why german cars are overrated. pretty please?

(3) they had more time to develop it because they DEVELOPED it. now as for lexus doing it in a shorter amount of time: how long do you think it takes to take a developed product, slightly alter it, and add a dash of blandliness? yeah. it's like that.

i don't mean to be condescending. I am looking forward to the is-f; i think it will be a great vehicle. but please dont go and try to defame others before the product is in the market and proves itself.

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chewy - 12/20/2006 5:02:54 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Show me proof. Oh wait, you can't. NO ONE has ever tested the IS-F yet. Before it is tested, you can't pretend that it will handle, accelerate, and brake excellently. The Audi RS4 and BMW M3 and MB C 55 AMG class have all been tested and their performance measured. I am just saying that you folks are running ahead of the train, as like a player guaraneeing that his team will win the championship even before the season has started or even before he knows who his teammates are.

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1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:14:28 PM

+6 Boost

"What does the M3 have that the Lexus IS-F doesn't?"

hmmm... for starters, the IS-F doesn't even officially exist. it's a disguised testing mule. you don't even know if it's a v-8 or a v-6 hybrid.

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1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:20:52 PM

+4 Boost

his mom needs to reduce his sugar intake

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1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:34:42 PM

+5 Boost

last i heard, even hyundais were reliable these days.

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Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:35:20 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

quiet v8 performance engine.



the biggest oxymoron ever.
I DON'T WANT A QUIET ENGINE IN A PERFORAMANCE CAR!

have mercedes ever offered quality? yes. for 30 years mercedes benz made THE BEST CARS IN THE WORLD.
lexus should not aim this car at the m3 or rs4, but the c55/63. that is its true competetion.

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mostafa - 12/20/2006 5:43:20 PM

+5 Boost

reliability reliability reliability.

just ask around in this forum how many people that own german cars are actually displeased with them? they ARE reliable. maybe that's why we see so many old european cars on the road still?

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Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:45:45 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

mr lexus1s250, i'll quote from jd power, your bible.
lexus has on average 100-110 issues per 100 cars. bmw has 140-150.
smoking at the side of the road? i think that is what you've been doing.
btw you've turned this post into a flame war where everyone is against you.

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lexusis350 - 12/20/2006 6:39:18 PM

+3 Boost

LexusIS250-
They're calling you sexy lexus because there was a guy, who I think has been banned, who would get on this site and drive everyone crazy. So, what they're saying is you're just like him.

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lexusis350 - 12/20/2006 6:56:07 PM

+4 Boost

I've wondered that myself.

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ryaajus - 12/22/2006 11:46:53 AM

+2 Boost

they'll all get speeding tickets

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S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 12:56:12 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Oh, I totally agree.

Except for me it's the S4.

It has that unbelievable V8 sound that none can duplicate, the silky six-speed transmission, the beautiful feeling when you go all-out on the highway, the ability to have the wind-in-your-hair-at-130mph-experience. The car is everything I've always wanted in it, and for half the price of a comparable machine. It's indescribable, the connection between man and his performance car.

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S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 12:58:39 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

This comment was a reply to MDalle.

How did it get here? I clicked the reply button!

SupraNeverBack - 12/20/2006 4:44:21 PM

+3 Boost

I guess it will have close to 450HP/400+lb.ft, and weight around 3600lb.

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AUDBMLEXMRC - 12/20/2006 4:52:44 PM

+1 Boost

BMW is great in this segment. It's even the best with it's M. They've a huge experience on this kind of cars!
LEXUS has to realy work on it's F to be competive with the M of BMW. Knowing that LEXUS is quiet challeng oriented, i would realy like to see and try this car! It will be also in Geneva auto show in march!

Just let the game start!

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Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:36:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

reliable does not equal best.
and best in class> last time i checked only the IS was. gs, rx, sc and ls are not.

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:39:12 PM

+5 Boost

it's sad ... clinging to consumer reports like it's a bible. like it will protect from vampires, ghouls, goblins, werewolves, swampthing, zombies, and the dreaded german car enthusiast

Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:54:47 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

i'll say again:
mr lexus1s250, i'll quote from jd power, your bible.
lexus has on average 100-110 issues per 100 cars. bmw has 140-150. so bmw has .5 of an issue more per car than lexus. wow.

Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:56:46 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

and i'll say again too:
my german "unreliable" cars have NEVER FAILED to get me from A-B.

S4cabriofoxone - 12/22/2006 1:01:44 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Rupert, the IS isnt' the best in its class.

Where did you get that conclusion?

If he wants to discuss sales only, then the 3 Series, A4 and C-Class are all better- in that order.

EL34 - 12/20/2006 4:55:05 PM

+2 Boost

I'll bet 50 Quid the New Lexus F-Car brakes are not as good as the M3's nor the RS4's.

But I know, the Lexus will come with the Mark Levinson CD player.

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Flight152 - 12/20/2006 5:06:09 PM

+5 Boost

<<They both will handle well and be top in their class. >>
First of all, neither car is out so it is impossible to tell. Judging from the base sedans the 3-series most has the edge handline-wise, something you can't deny.

<<But the M3 will very likely not be as reliable as the Lexus, so that means the Lexus is the true winner in this class.>>

I disagree. In this league, performance and styling win sales, not being slightly more reliable. Not to mention the fact that BMW has free 4 year 50,000 mile maintnance which Lexus does not.

<<I think the M3 is overrated, like all German cars.>>

The new M3 is not out, so it cannot be rated or overrated.

<<Lexus has been around for around 20 years and look how much they achieved.>>

Yeah, your right. A sedan (LS460) which takes over 200 feet to stop from 70mph, pretty unimpressive. The case is hardly closed.



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1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:19:23 PM

+3 Boost

common misconception: because lexus is reliable, everyone else is not.

that's some amazing marketing, what do they have carl rove working for them?

"youre either with us or against us"

answer - 12/20/2006 5:26:59 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

It's not so much the strength of the Lexus marketing department as it is a testament to the inability for the German brands to create an equally reliable vehicle.

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:29:39 PM

+2 Boost

what german vehicle has been found so unreliabe?

i have owned several, and managed to dodge reliability issues. just luck?

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:43:54 PM

+1 Boost

what was made up?


youre dying here man, looking like michael richards explosion part 2.

Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:48:52 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

me too! i've never had less than 1 german car in the household and they've never let me down. only car that has broken down at the side of the road was a saab, and that was just a stuck thermostat so the engine overheated.

BM3W - 12/20/2006 5:15:48 PM

+2 Boost

If the Lexus F-car can lay down a 0-60 in 4.3 sec and handle like a pure racing machine; then yes it may have a chance. Otherwise, the Lexus F-car will not topple BMW M3's supremacy.



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chewy - 12/20/2006 5:19:41 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Or the current Audi RS4's that really holds the top position right now.

Flight152 - 12/20/2006 5:17:41 PM

+2 Boost

<<Buddy, the Lexus will be the best. Every standard Lexus is already the best in class.>>

Keep telling yourself this. If this was the case Lexus would sell more IS's then BMW sells 3-series; which obviously isn't the case.

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AlexTx - 12/20/2006 5:20:10 PM

+3 Boost

Yup....
BMW sold over 10K 3 series and even Audi was #2 with over 5,500 A4s. Lexus was last with barely more than 3,500 IS sold..not good for a car in its second year.
Looks like the "new car" thing has worn off.

AlexTx - 12/20/2006 5:18:10 PM

+6 Boost

Oh look....LexusIS250 is SexyLexusDude with the same lame comments.
This car goes against everything Lexus stands for...Soft, quiet, plush...
i don't think many of the current Lexus owners will be buying this car. But that Lexus IS-F will not be able to compete well for the simple reason that...it won't have a 6 Speed Manual. You can't get BMW and Audi enthusiasts into this car without a Manual.
The RS4 has place the bar way high in this category. It will be a great car no doubt, but don't think it will dethrone the kings (M3 and RS4).

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supermoto - 12/20/2006 5:21:29 PM

+2 Boost

No way is Lexus ever going to be able to beat an M3, ever! Dream on! Next someone is going to say something even more ridiculous like that they're going to challenge Porsche or Ferrari. Ha. Lexus should stick to what it does best, extremely reliable grandpa-movers.

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1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:27:20 PM

+3 Boost

"I hope I am not sounding like a fanboy, because I am trying to have a serious and objective discussion with you people."

WAAAAAAYYYY too late

Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:43:36 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

fun to drive?
i disagree...as does everybody else in the entire world.

and as for saying you're not a fanboy, you're about 50 posts too late.
you're not even trying to have a discussion, you're just laying down statements like "lexus is the best", "lexus will take down all german brands" and don't actually give any reasons. and then "lexus will take on porsche ion the future and win because they're so reliable and fun to drive". that is the biggest fanboy statement i've ever read.
a) you are making stuff up - we have no idea whether lexus will compete with porsche
b) we don't know who good it will be
c) lexi are not fun to drive, and do not handle as well as the bmw or audi counterpart
d) realiability has nothing to do with sports cars.
this is lexus' FIRST performance car EVER. i don't think it will beat the m3 or rs4. i don't think it will handle very well. this car goes completely against lexus' core philosophy.
seriously, listen to yourself, then decide whether you're a fanboy. you're more biased than amazing bimmer!

Rupert - 12/20/2006 5:51:22 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

yes lexus is reliable.
that is your only truth.
your doing the opposite of goebbels PR laws - you're doing 90% lie, 10% truth!

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:25:58 PM

+4 Boost

japan was a german ally in ww2, jackass.

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chewy - 12/20/2006 5:29:02 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

No need to bring that up, last time someone mentioned WW2 here the discussion went completely off topic. Just some facts, Japan was with Germany in WW2 and lost. And the German sure did just about take over half the world before they lost. But there is no need to even mention that as it has no relevance to production cars today.

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Bill - 12/20/2006 9:25:00 PM

+4 Boost

Mr Lexus IS250,

It is amazing that Germany held out for so long against the material and manpower might of the United States and the USSR and their allies. Germany's major military allies in Europe were of no use to her. Italy, Romania, Slovakia and Hungary all had poorly trained and outdated armies. It was the Germany Army which kept up the fight and they fought skillfully. The average German soldier and commander was a capable fighting machine.

In the words of Bryan Mark Riggs: "The German Army may have been outnumbered, but it was never outclassed."


Japan on the other hand...

They borrowed, bought and relied heavily on German technological aid. Germany shipped over some FW-190 fighter planes via submarine for technical evaluation, they shipped over the blueprints for the Messerschmidt ME-163B Rocket Fighter (and even shipped over a sample aircraft), they shipped over blueprints for the 30mm MK-108 aircraft cannon etc. etc. etc. Japan had some advanced technology during World War II, but the Germans were simply far more advanced and ahead of the Japanese.

Your bogus claims here are full of shit, excuse the language. You want to talk modern history? Then you talk to me, because I am a history professor (part time nowadays) and I know my history.

Instead of trolling on this site, read a book and learn something.

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XYZZ - 12/27/2006 12:55:20 AM

0 Boost

mr "history professor," how do you explain the ignominous defeat of the brits by the (far OUTNUMBERED) japanese in the malaya-singapore campaign?

yes, the germans were great fighters. and so were the japanese, with far less material resources.

it was largely just thru HUGE resource advantages that the allies won wwII.

EL34 - 12/20/2006 5:22:43 PM

+2 Boost

LexusIS250 is a collection of straight angles drawn by children with their plastic rulers and the BMW 3 Series is sculpted out of a single block of aircraft grade aluminum by master craftsmen.

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chewy - 12/20/2006 5:26:52 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

I don't know about that. I would take the IS over the 3 series any day based on design. In fact I would rate the IS as the best designed car in its class currently.

Flight152 - 12/20/2006 5:30:47 PM

+1 Boost

<<In fact I would rate the IS as the best designed car in its class currently.>>

Based on what, exactly?


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chewy - 12/20/2006 6:13:35 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Based on my own observations. The Audi A4 is nice of course, but you can see that it is a bit old in a few places. The redesign was very nice though. And the RS4 is still the best designed sports sedan. But I would have to give the Lexus IS an edge over the current A4, the next gen A4 I am sure will looks very excellent, but we will have to wait to see how it will look like. The C class is out of production, it looks old. The BMW 3 series is ok, but has nothing special. The tail lights are extra weak IMO. See Lexus fans, I don't hate Lexus, it just the fact that we HAVE to wait to see what the IS-F brings to the table before we proclaim it as best.

EL34 - 12/20/2006 5:35:59 PM

+1 Boost

The IS Series has the worst lookin' tail lights of almost any car on the road.

I mean, were they the last thing the designers thought about?

Where is the inspiration for those tail lights???

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mostafa - 12/20/2006 5:47:51 PM

+1 Boost

anime?

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:50:48 PM

+3 Boost

lexusis250 = 0 credibility

1995e34 - 12/20/2006 5:59:30 PM

+1 Boost

very creative

answer - 12/20/2006 5:49:21 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

You know what? The more I think about it I really hope this ISF pales in comparison to the new M3. I hope it brakes in long distances, has a 5 sec. plus 0-60 time, and handles like a Camry.

The more I read these posts it seems quite obvious that were the ISF beat out the new M3, some of you here would have a psychotic breakdown.

reply to this comment

EL34 - 12/20/2