	Agent001 Dis is your ninety eight vatchamacalit?
	View My AgentSpace

Detroit News reporter SLAMS the new Lexus ES350 in her review

Agent001 submitted on 06/14/2006 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 2:54 PM
from: www.autospies.com

[104] user comments | category: Report Cards

Print this Page |

Digg It |

del.icio.us

Detroit News reporter SLAMS the new Lexus ES350 in her review

In the past, I've glowingly compared the entry-level Lexus sedan to a little black dress. That is, a versatile, elegant workhorse that can take you from client meetings to a cocktail party with ease.

So I wasn't surprised when a Lexus executive took me aside at the March launch of the redesigned, fifth-generation 2007 Lexus ES 350 and asked if I could see "the kimono" outline in the instrument panel.

The instrument panel was created by one of Toyota's female designers and she apparently worked hard to achieve a crisscross effect in the cabin that mimics the folds in a traditional Japanese robe. The idea, I'm told, is to avoid the boring, symmetrical look of the instrument panels found in Buicks and Hyundai sedans.

AUTO SPIES PERSPECTIVE: We were at the same event and we'll just say two words about her review...SHE'S NUTS! The new ES350 is extremely handsome and will end up setting sales records for Lexus. For pure luxury oriented buyers in the 35k range, there is no better total solution.

Full review here

Comments:

Images hosted in your AgentSpace can now be posted in the comments section using the following syntax (case matters):
[img]IMAGE URL[/img]
Example: [img]http://agent004.myautospies.com/users/150/Sample-Gallery/sample1.JPG[/img]

PlanoA4 - 6/14/2006 3:24:15 PM

0 Boost

I have said it before and I say it again. Look out for the Koreans you Toyota/Lexus guys. They are beating Toyota and posed to take on Lexus in quality.

The public has figured out the shell game that cross badging creates. This reviewer is comparing the Lexus to the Toyota sister and drawing conclusions. That association draws her over to the Hyundai which Lexus never really should be compared to. (In theory) But this is what the typical consumer will do. (Isn’t GM dealing with this same issue right now?)

So a direct comparison is drawn and a $15K difference surfaces. And questions arises is the “Lexus/Avalon” worth the price.?

For Lexus’ sake, I hope the answer is yes.

reply to this comment

phantom330 - 6/14/2006 3:43:53 PM

+2 Boost

I think that car is about as bland as they come, looks like the Honda Accord before the refresh this year, then again the puke brown color doesn't do much for it either. I have always found these to be a little too close in looks to the Camry/Avalon. You can build a car on the same body (Accord/TL, for example) and still have one look much different than the other.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/14/2006 4:02:08 PM

+2 Boost

Sales does not equal quality in any regard. You keep gettin that confused. Honda sell more cars than Lexus, so are Hondas better?

Hyundai beat Toyota in the IQS scores you guys love to tout so much. I warned you guys of this a while back.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/14/2006 4:05:11 PM

+1 Boost

For the record, I do think the ES300 looks better in real life than in pics but still not my taste.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/14/2006 4:21:47 PM

0 Boost

If a reviewer is too critical she probably will get cut off from the pool of cars. So she is taking a risk. Some time they will buck the trend. While I don't agree with all of her comments, I can see her point.

Go sit in an Azera and you will see what I mean. Then factor in the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on top of that, and question will come to mind quickly. The build quality is there and the warranty is training a whole new generation of owners what commitment is all about.

reply to this comment

dblo7 - 6/14/2006 5:02:33 PM

0 Boost

I think the ES is a good entry level luxo car. A little sporty and contemporary. The interior take a little getting used to, but not bad. It does not stir any emotional need for it, but not too many cars do in the entry level. Yes I would prefer a CTS or BMW, but thats me.

Not a car for everyone, no car is, but it does its job and fills its role nicely.

reply to this comment

moto - 5/19/2007 5:05:31 AM

+1 Boost

well, you can say this about any new car, couldn't you?

wwww - 6/14/2006 5:17:38 PM

+1 Boost

First i wonder why Autospies is soo outraged at her general overview and mediocre stance. It seems as if Autospies is afraid of her comments and attitude against the ES. (i wonder who is paying for the ad fees)

Her message was simple, the new Es has more presence in terms of exterior styling (as compared to the last one), but overall the car is not ground breaking (maybe for the fuel consumption). At this price range there are a lot of choices, but the Es is not unique enough to steal sales or buyers from a wider spectrum of age group. At the horsepower range, similar offerings would be the G35 but it is a lot more athletic than the GS (quicker, better HP and torque and BMWesque handling). For luxury, it is made in japan as compared to the camry and materials are a bit better. As previously mentioned by another blogger u are going for the badge.

As for the business of Hyundai, Lets not forget how 20 yrs ago lexus was not as mainstream or popular as now. Hyundai IMO is a mirror reflection of lexus/Toyota 2 decades ago. I am not sure if anyone had been to Korea lately, but for a premium quality car, some Hyndai offerings are as well designed, reliable with quality materials in and out for their domestic market.

reply to this comment

wwww - 6/14/2006 5:20:31 PM

+1 Boost

G35 but it is a lot more athletic than the GS (quicker, better HP and torque and BMWesque handling), Should read ES not GS

reply to this comment

dblo7 - 6/14/2006 8:08:56 PM

+1 Boost

Hmmmm...I have a feeling German is better may be biased??? Just a thought. Hey German you can have this car...I am sure you like it:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/14/Autos/pricey_lemon/index.htm

:)

reply to this comment

three2four - 6/14/2006 9:12:10 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

she is right. the car really sucks.

reply to this comment

ContiRoane - 6/14/2006 9:34:21 PM

+2 Boost

But I think she's spot on.

The Lexus ES350 just plain sucks.

The car just screams 1996 to me.....not 2006.

Just buy a Camry and save yourself 15 grand.

reply to this comment

CarNut - 6/15/2006 6:29:59 AM

+1 Boost

I would never buy that car.

Companies of the world have to realize this:
this segment of cars has the elite and everything else. Elite is the german trio: Audi A6, BMW 5, and Mercedes E.

Lexus has tries to come into this elite, but (although to be honest I havent driven that car-yet) the Lexus was clearly last in comparisson with the trio.

I agreee with the review 100%

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 8:34:07 AM

+1 Boost

Yes the new Lexus models in real life do look much better than the pics indicate. But I keep thinking "Pokeman" when I see them with the slanted headlight and tail lights. Actually a BMW model or two do that to me too.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 9:10:01 AM

+1 Boost

You are bang on about Hyundai.. They are quickly coming around. Kinda scary actually. There are young and hungry and aggressive, while I see the Toyota line starting to become more generic and rental car in design.

Hyundai is a cross between Nissan and Toyota. The quality of Toyota (IQS and VDS are proving it) and the more aggressive styling of Nissan (without the quality issues). Actually a formidable combination when you consider it.

Funny as soon as you start getting to the top in sales bracket like GM and Ford, the companies tend to become more like them in design. Trying to hit a huge target with a small line. Too many compromises and a more generic flavor. I see that with Toyota more and more. Too many bean counters.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 11:48:52 AM

+1 Boost

Wecome aboard!

We have several here with stout convictions about what to drive. I assure you that most here will agree there is no one car for everyone. Keep on posting, but don't be suprised if someone disagrees with you. You made the right choice for you, and that is all that matters.

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/15/2006 12:08:42 PM

+1 Boost

that anybody would say that the Azera is really comparable to the ES 350. The ES 350 is miles ahead in the luxury department. Also, I cannot believe that that lady was given an assignment to review this car. The whole review screams "half-assed" in terms of her overall abilities. That lady is such a downer. Maybe she needs some meds because her writing and overall personality that comes through her writing is rather depressing.

Take a look for yourselves:

Looks kinda cheap to me...

These cars are in different categories. Of course the ES is not a mega-flashy luxury car, but it is very sedate, elegant, and smells of luxury, regardless of the absence of over-the-top design.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 1:07:00 PM

+1 Boost

Yes you can drive the Lexus for 15 years no problems I agree, but after the first 4 you are on your own.

The cheaper Hyundai goes for 5 and an additional 5 years and 40K on the power train....

And actually how many ES owners will own it 15 years? 5% maybe? The rest are on short-term notes or leases typical of most luxury brands.

The ONLY reason the Hyundai gets drawn into the mix IS because the Lexus is an Avalon simply reskinned, so by association it is being lowered to that level. That sisterhood hurts the reputation and brings in the question. Well if it really is JUST an Avalon, then can I get the same thing in a Hyundai?

Sharing down across lines is one thing, but sharing up is another. There have to be differences, which there are too few under the skin. This will dog the ES until they delineate it from the mainstream vehicle., it goes with the turf

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 2:19:16 PM

+1 Boost

The problem is the Lexus is touted as a luxury brand, but it offers little other than trim and body work over the Avalon. Also the warranty is less than the garden variety Hyundai. So again the question really is: is it worth $15k more?

Another way of saying it is does it show $15k more of an advantage over the Hyundai visually and comfort to a typical buyer. Most of readers of this board, I would venture can be classified as above typical (though I question that of some of you).

Most luxury cars are leased so they are turned in a the term. Resale to them is less of an issue. It all boils down to what you want. A look, a name, quality, reliability or TCO. TCO (total cost of ownership) is not a motivator of most luxury brands. Luxury brands have horrible depreciation compared to any investment. If you take the reliability ratings as a pure numeric value you learn real quickly that it typically is not an issue for most cars. So what do you want?

BTW the dash on the Azera looks a lot like the Rx300 dash a few years back

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/15/2006 2:38:05 PM

+1 Boost

The ES and Avalon are not directly related. The Camry is the Toyota equivalent of the Lexus ES. I will post the differences between the ES and Avalon later. Right now I am at work.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 2:59:41 PM

0 Boost

You are correct. I took the author comparison incorrectly. But actually that makes my case a bit stronger. So explain away when you get home.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/15/2006 3:39:49 PM

+1 Boost

Hmm started looking a bit at the Camry and the Es350 and this is what I see.

1. Wheelbase and track is the exact same.

2. Suspension is the exact same. Shocks and springs rates probably differ. But there is no upgraded multilink suspension on the ES.

3. Brakes are the same exactly, no difference.

4. Engine gains 4 more hp. but the rest is the same overall.

5. Tires and rims are the same size and profile.

From what I can see the ES is the Camry structurally underneath.

Now I know the ES will have the electronic gadgetry that the Camry will not have. But tangibly am I paying other than electronics, and trim. Help me see the light. From what I can tell it is the same apple cart underneath.

reply to this comment

TybeeZ4 - 6/15/2006 10:04:50 PM

+1 Boost

a friggin Camry. Just dressed up. Ever notice when you're behing one of these things how the exhaust pipe hangs down? They all look like the Midas guy had a few toddies at lunch. Sure, they are reliable, but they are just plain boring cars. And for the guy who considered a CLS but chose the ES, the CLS is so far out of the ES' league at $75k, he had to be pulling one over on the wife. Really, $34k he spent, not even half the CLS price. What "BS"!

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 8:49:43 AM

+1 Boost

I don't think Autospies is that outraged.

If you look at the number of posts here, you will typically find two camps.

The Euro Guys (German), and the Toyota/Lexus (Toylex). So if you throw out a headline to either group you get alot of traffic real quick.

Funny though Honda Nissan barely get a whisper when it come to posts from the members of the board around here. Be assured if it has Toyota/Lexus or a German car and it has a bold headline, you better hang on!

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 10:02:01 AM

+2 Boost

Just where does Lexus champion "sportiness"? That is their biggest problem. I have seen mop buckets with more pizzaz.

Lexus is tanking in Europe a well doumented fact.

Lexus is a luxury make but does not compete with premium cars on the world front. Sales prove it.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 10:54:51 AM

0 Boost

Have a hard time face the truth...eh?

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/16/2006 12:43:14 PM

+1 Boost

Camry & ES 350: BOTH CARS LOOK NOTHING ALIKE... THEY RIDE ON THE SAME PLATFORM!

They have similar engines and they are each differnet in their own way! It's like Infiniti & Nissan. You don't hear anyone cursing them about ther Altima/Maxima/G35!

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/16/2006 12:52:00 PM

+1 Boost

Look nothing alike!

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 2:13:24 PM

0 Boost

Badge Engineering in it self is not a bad thing if performed correctly. It saves the car maker cash on R&D and saves the consumer overall.

It is far easier to share down from a brand upper line to the lower line without too many issues if it follows several general rules.

(I will use Audi because I know them better)

Sharing Down:

In Audi’s case the S8 “shares” a v10 from Lamborghini. However. Key areas of the Audi version have been reengineered compared with the engine in the Lamborghini Gallardo. The bore has been increased from 82.5 to 84.5 mm; the stroke is 92.8 mm and the displacement 5204cc. An intermediate frame – reinforces the extremely compact crankcase, which is made from cast aluminium. There are significant changes in this sharing process and the transmissions and remaining drive train are different. The Audi has the heritage and basics of the Lamborghini but not the exclusive factor the Lamborghini has. Pretty straight forward, you get some of the goods, but the real deal is still unique to the Lamborghini.

Sharing Up:

In Audi’s case you see sharing up as well but this is the twist compared to Lexus. The current TT 2006 is a shared platform with the Golf. The front and rear suspension has been changed and modified and strengthened to the new task. Even the wheelbase has been altered to suit the new dynamics. The entire chassis has been cross-braced and strengthened to suit the new role. The TT for will have engines unique to Audi as well.

In the Lexus ES case, the wheelbase the suspension, the engine, the transmission, everything in the drive train is the same as in the Camry.

These are mechanical similarities that are easy to see and feel when driving. This is what she is talking about. The previous ES and the Camry drove the same. (I have not driven the newest ES). Since the new ES is mechanically the same drive train and chassis verbatim, it is logical to see that it will drive very similar.

Is this bad?

Not really unless you were expect to get something different and better than the lesser Camry.

So what are you expectations?

Get the same car but a slicker body and interior and pay $15k more, or have something better over all on all fronts uniquely designed for the task. This exact reason is why Lexus has trouble in Europe and even in Japan.

They are not as gullible as we are, and demand more for their money.

Why Lexus is tanking in Europe:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060614/AUTO02/606140398/1362

Why Lexus is tanking in Japan:
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060215_597701.htm

Both echo one word...Boring

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/16/2006 4:14:03 PM

0 Boost

...look, of course the ES 350 & Camry look alike! They both look almost like every other car on the road... you know why?

Because they both have two rear, lights two front lights, four tires, four wheels, four door handles, one engine, one steering wheel, two side mirrors, two bumpers, e.t.c.!

You get the idea.

IM NOT CHANGING MY OPINION! ES 350 IS A BEUTIFUL CAR AND IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THE CAMRY!

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/16/2006 4:21:51 PM

+1 Boost

I can't beleie anyone would compare this beutiful car to the HYUNDAI AZERA! Oh yeah DON'T buy Hyundai's did you know that as soon as you have an accident, you have no more warranty. They don't want to do ANYTHING with the car after it has been in an accident!

I mean who in their right mind would compare a HYUNDAI to a Lexus!

Oh yeah... I don't get it what is so special about the instrument cluster in the ES 350?

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 4:29:52 PM

+1 Boost

Looks prretty similar to the Es300 of old

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 4:30:24 PM

+1 Boost

As promised....

The following is a comparison between the features and price of the Hyundai Azera to the Lexus ES 350 (Yikes, I never thought it would come to this):

Like Features:

PERFORMANCE
- V6 DOHC Engine
- Front Wheel Drive
- 4-Wheel Disc Brakes
- Power Rack-and-Pinion Steering
- 17" Aluminum Alloy Wheels

SAFETY FEATURES
- ABS
- Traction Control System
- Vehicle Stability Control/Electronic Stability Control
- Anti-theft System
- Engine Immobilizer
- Keyless Entry
- Fog Lights
- 8 Standard Airbags

LUXURY FEATURES
- Leather Seating
- Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel/Gear Shift Knob
- Woodgrain Interior Trim
- Heated Seats
- Auto Air Conditioning with Dual Zone Control
- Dust, Pollen, Deodorizing Air Filter
- Rear Seat Heater Ducts
- In Dash 6-Disc CD Changer
- Power Tilt / Slide Sunroof with Sunshade
- Outside Temperature Display
- Cruise Control
- HomeLink Integrated Transceiver
- Automatic Light Control
- Power Remote Heated Mirrors
- Projector Style Halogen Headlamps

The following are what separates them:

Azera Has, ES 350 Does not have:

- Electric Rear Sun Screen (option on ES)
- 10 Speakers (ES has 8 standard)
- Rain Sensing Wipers (option on ES)

ES 350 Has, Azera Does not have:

- 6-Speed Automatic Super Electronically Controlled Transmission (Super ECT) Sequential Multi-Mode Shifter vs 5-speed Azera Trans.
- 3.5l 272 hp vs 3.8l 263
- Dual VVT-i Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence on both Intake and Exhaust Cams
- Direct Injection System (DIS)
- Electronic Throttle Control System with Intelligence (ETCS-i)
- Acoustic Control Induction System (ACIS)
- Power Assisted Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD)
- Brake Assist (BA)
- Power Telescopic Steering Wheel (Azera's is manually operated)
- Power Tilt Steering (Azera's is manually operated)
- Automatic Air Recirculation Control System (Detects Harmful Particulates and Automatically Changes the Circulation Mode)
- Audio Auxiliary Input Jack
- Automatic Sound Levelizer System (ASL)
- 10-way Power Adjustable Drivers/Passenger Seat (Azera is 6-way)
- Heated Driver/Passenger Seat with Ventilation Fan
- Lexus Driver Memory Seat System with Two Driver Memory Settings
- Optitron Electronic Analog Guages with Multifunction Display (Azera's is an ugly puke yellow display)

- Key Lockout Protection
- Door Courtesy Lamps
- Drivers Footwell Lamp
- LED Illumination System
- Wheel Locks (OPTION ON AZERA)
- High Solar Energy Absorbing Window Glass
- Chrome Finished Door Handles
- Electrochromic Side View Mirrors
- Driver and Passenger Knee Airbags
- Front Seatbelt Pre-Tensioners and Force Limiters
- Tire Pressure Monitoring System

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 4:32:45 PM

+1 Boost

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 4:37:12 PM

+1 Boost

generations ago plaino. You starting to sound like a broken record....

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 4:37:20 PM

+1 Boost

That is a nice list, but I am more concerned how the Camry and the Lexus differ since I was concerned about the premium I would pay for it over the Camry.

I expect the Lexus to have a more extensive list, (it better) however when I look at it I really only see a few extras worth noting as significant.

BTW I thought you were going to post the following: "I will post the differences between the ES and Avalon later. Right now I am at work. " I did correct my stance that actually the Camry not the Avalon should be the sister.

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 4:37:39 PM

+1 Boost

And done by an aftermarket company with no taste... hence the NYC Dashes...!

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 4:38:25 PM

+1 Boost

Yep 2 generations ago but still a Lexus.

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 4:46:33 PM

+1 Boost

Good thing you pointed that out. I just realized that I wasted all that time for something else. Well, I will just go ahead then and post the differences of the ES 350 and Avalon now. I will get cracking.

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 5:03:00 PM

+1 Boost

more like an "NYC" Dash.

Comparing the Avalon Limited ($33,965 USD) to the ES 350 base ($33,865), I have come to conclude that the Avalon is a better value, but, not by very much.

I would compile a list, but judging how the format is on the website, it would be too difficult.

This is the ES 350's dash at night:

However, in my opinion, the ES is the better looking of the two (avalon vs es)

It seems that some writing on this site have a deep-rooted grudge that can't be shaken, though. Meh.

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/16/2006 5:16:32 PM

+1 Boost

Yeah, yeah. Hyundai Azera may have all those fancy features... but the overall WORKMANSHIP of the vehicle is much less than the Lexus ES. A Hyundai Azera is filled with CHEAP plastic and crappy buttons! And about the speaker systems and other electronics. I'm 100% sure that the sound quality is better in the ES.

This is such a stupid argument. Hyundai's are cheap for a reason. Their interieors are made from cheap plastic! Lexus' aren't!

I've come to my conclusion. The workmanship in Hyunddai's are CRAP!

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 6:02:22 PM

+1 Boost

Infinity did the Azera's sound system. Infinity is a sister company of JBL and Mark Levinson under the Harman International brand. I cannot possibly see anybody really scratching their coconut over which looks better and more luxurious. Azera or ES 350? ES 350!!! The Azera looks just SO cheap. Ugh. The 2007 Toyota Camry easily looks better than the Azera interior.

Doesn't anybody else think that the Azera interior, especially the dash, looks cheap and as if no thought went into it?

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 6:05:55 PM

+1 Boost

if somebody is looking for a luxury car, then what do you suggest, buy a BMW? lol...

Dollar-for-dollar, Lexus seems to be the best alternative for somebody wanting a luxury car if that is what somebody is looking for. There is no alternative.

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/16/2006 7:26:45 PM

+1 Boost

Listen here MikeG -About the sound systems. Even if Mark Levinson, JBL, and Infinty are all devisions of Harman International. But out of the three brands listed above, which one is the most expensive and gives the best quality? Mark Levinson. Infinity is CHEAP! So look at that I have heard some Infinity sound systems and the quality sounds like garbage! When I rode in my friends Lexus... It sounded a million times better.

It's like the Toyota group: For instance lets focus on Lexus, Toyota, and Scion.

Scion would be the base hardcore. It just has the basics and a few extra gimmics and isn't the best - and in this case, doesn't have the best quality!

Toyota would be in between. Plush suttle and good. Not quite great, but good. It has everything the Scion has, but it is less harsh. (if you know waht i mean by harsh: Unfinished, incomplete, not complete).

And here is Lexus. The big bad boy who is rich and has everything both Scion, and Toyota has PLUS more. The qaulity in a Cadillac is much better than the quality in a Chevy.

Get the point.

Scion would be Infinity, Toyota would be JBL, and Lexus would be Mark Levension!

- So I know that the sound quality in a Mark Levenson is alot better than the sound quality in an Infinity. I've had experience!

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 10:08:30 PM

+1 Boost

How about you tell me something I don't already know.

I really appreciate your speech but you just wasted your time.

If you know anything about audio, though, you would know that Infinity has amazing home audio products. Their mainstream line is better than JBL's mainstream line, although, JBL's premium line is some of the best in the world. Read: Synthesis home theatre (+$100k systems) and the K2 models (+$10k loudspeakers).

Spare me those "if you know what I means", "get the points", "I've had the experiences", "so look at thats", and "listen heres"...

I don't know where you got the idea that I bashed the ES audio system (neither a ML or JBL system, but a Pioneer one; just the same as the one in the IS, which I almost bought a few months ago).

Same with crazyazndude... I don't know if he was arguing with me or not, but this confusion and frustration directed towards me is spurred on by illiterates who don't know how to read or write.

Now I know why the German Fanboys hate some of the people that represent the Lexus/Toyota group. It is because a couple poor souls are insecure and picking fights at any moment; it goes both ways though; there are many German Fanboys that do the same.

This is my response to crazyazndude (take it to your English tutor):

"mikeg - 6/16/2006 OFFICIAL BELL & ROSS TIMESTAMP: 6:02:22 PM EDT
Title: Yup, yup, maybe, and yup.
Comment: Infinity did the Azera's sound system. Infinity is a sister company of JBL and Mark Levinson under the Harman International brand. I cannot possibly see anybody really scratching their coconut over which looks better and more luxurious. Azera or ES 350? ES 350!!! The Azera looks just SO cheap. Ugh. The 2007 Toyota Camry easily looks better than the Azera interior."

All I said was that the Infinity system was not crap and I don't KNOW if it is better than the Pioneer system, which, in the IS 350 I was going to buy, was pretty damn good. I don't KNOW, that is why I said MAYBE. After I mentioned the Infinity system, I said that the Azera was ugly and cheap. Confused still?

Case closed?

Crazyazndude, the Azera only has 2 semi-useless features that the ES doesn't have and 1 that is semi-semi-useless (rear sunshade).

Other than that, the ES 350 has the style, feel of luxury, and many, many more features integrated into the car that make it command the premium it does over the Azera.

Are you guys confused still? I hope I didn't make you guys pop a blood vessel, because that wasn't intended.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 11:07:12 PM

+1 Boost

Choosing the Avalon over the Lexus proved my point. It takes more than a nameplate on a hood, fancy trim and some electronics for an informed buyer to shell out $15k extra. You basically came to the same conclusion, you questioned if the ES was a better value.

I can hear the Toytoa guys back in the later 90's talking now.

You see Yoshi, we take a Camry and put a new body on it and a new interior, and call it a....Lexus. We then mark it up $20K and put it in a fancy dealership with a coffee bar... The best thing it we change very little on the car and make lots of money. Those Americans will drink the coffee see the marble floors and love it!

And we did.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 11:27:08 PM

+1 Boost

I agree with you to a degree.

However I doubt you every looked closely at the Audi/VW relationship. Audi typically shares very little in the way of structure that is not significantly modified. Also in these cases the pan itself was used not the entire chassis and suspension. To prove it start looking at parts numbers and you will see. Typically VW will have simple Macpherson struts the Audis will use Multilink suspensions.

You of all people should know, that the pan itself is mearly a building block, than can be altered (ala Audi) or mearly transfered intact (ala Lexus) to the sister. These building blocks may be adjusted for the intended role if need be. To the less involved, if they are the same cars as you infer, then wheelbase, & track would be identical as in the Lexus case.

That is not to say that there are not common parts. The front suspension on the 1996 A4 Audi is the same as on the same genre Passat. However Audi came out with the A4 in 1996 and the Passat was released in 1998. The Passat is also a different chassis pan and wheelbase. This is an example of sharing down.

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/16/2006 11:33:04 PM

+1 Boost

minor corerection of the Altima/Maxima/G35 sisters. The G35 is not the same chassis. It is actually the Skyline chassis, with the same engine across all platforms with different tuning parameters.

reply to this comment

Hyundai - 6/16/2006 11:33:11 PM

+1 Boost

I don't know about that.

I have proved that the ES 350 is a better value than the Azera, and that is supposed to really be value-seller.

The main difference from the ES 350 and the Avalon other than the badge is the interior styling. I can see where you are coming from, but would I shell out just a couple extra thousand dollars for the Lexus? Yes I would. The reason being is that the materials and the design is more luxurious and "rich" inside the Lexus. It really does command a couple thousand premium. Essentially, if you pay just $2480 for the "premium plus package" (Leather-trimmed interior, Heated and ventilated front seats, Driver's seat power cushion extender, Lexus Memory System to control power driver's and front passenger's seats (except lumbar), outside mirrors and steering wheel, Electrochromic (auto-dimming) outside mirrors with tilt-down in reverse, Rain-sensing intermittent windshield wipers with mist cycle, Remote keyless entry-linked memory), which throws in a couple options that the Avalon doesn't have, you have a more desirable car.

The ES 350, really isn't the scam you make it out to be. You think that all of the people that bought the car (wealthy, intelligent people; don't kid yourself) are all teenagers without expensive university degrees and know nothing about the value of money?

reply to this comment

PlanoA4 - 6/17/2006 1:54:02 AM

+1 Boost

The ES350 is not a scam, but it is plain jane vehicle dressed up to be a luxury vehicle. The only problem I have is when these types of vehicles are compared to, or tried to be passed off as premium cars.

This is the same as the Azera compared to ES350 compared to the 5 series. All are different

1. Azera nice mainstream Car
2. ES300 nice Luxury Car
3. 5 Series nice Premium Car

None traditionally compete.

Right now by the purest definition of the Premium Segment, no Lexus can be classified as such. But they are very competent Luxury cars. People get this confused. The analysts know the segment quite well however the consumers do not.

reply to this comment

JCF110 - 6/17/2006 7:53:53 AM

+1 Boost

Oh yeah here is a typo sorry: When I said "And here is Lexus. The big bad boy who is rich and has everything both Scion, and Toyota has PLUS more. The qaulity in a Cadillac is much better than the quality in a Chevy."
<