26 Votes

Did Lack Of Critical Safety Features Play A Factor In Toyota Floormat Crashes?

Agent009 submitted on 10/16/2009 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 11:33:15 AM

40 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: blogs.consumerreports.org

Recent reports of stuck accelerator pedals causing crashes and Toyota’s enormous recall has caused many to question whether or not a vehicle’s brakes are powerful enough to overpower the engine to stop a vehicle, and what you should do if you are ever in that situation.

Most experts agree that a typical production car engine won’t overpower the car’s brakes from a stop. But what happens at speed is another question.

Our first two subjects were the Mercedes-Benz E350 and Volkswagen Jetta Wagon, German cars with so-called “smart-throttle” technology. Both will electronically ignore the throttle input if the brake pedal is depressed. With both, we accelerated to 60 mph and then hit the brakes with the throttle pedal still planted to simulate a condition where the floor mat might have stuck it in place. With both vehicles, we were able to safely slow to a stop despite the engine having been at wide-open throttle. After stopping, the engines idled even with the throttle pedal still floored.

Next up, we tried our Toyota Venza and Chevrolet HHR. Since these lacked smart-throttles, we proceeded more cautiously. So we decided to start this test by flooring the cars to 20 mph (instead of 60) and then slamming on the brakes.

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Did Lack Of Critical Safety Features Play A Factor In Toyota Floormat Crashes?

About the Author

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
— Agent009 (View Profile)

User Comments

It is the faulty pedal position sensors on Toyota, not the floormats.
There have been many failures reported on Toyota's pedal position sensors (sometimes freaky behaviours)
The plastic innocent floormats are taking the blame for something they didn't do.
A floormat does not put enough pressure on the pedal to cause vehicles to run at high speed. No drivers are that stupid. People can see (or feel) that the floormat is "on" the pedal.
Toyota is still in denial. The sooner they admits their use of lousy sensor, the better off for everyone, including Toyota itself.
— ceric (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 12:48:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Ceric, no one is suggesting the floormats themselves apply enough pressure, especially not through their weight. It's that they wedge themselves between the pedal and the floor after the pedal has been depressed and act like a door stop. If the pedal is depressed far enough there is no room to press it further to allow the mat to be pulled out. Pulling the mat while it's wedged will simply increase the door-stop effect.
— AlleVier (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 2:30:51 PM | | Votes: 3

"Our first two subjects were the Mercedes-Benz E350 and Volkswagen Jetta Wagon, German cars with so-called “smart-throttle” technology. Both will electronically ignore the throttle input if the brake pedal is depressed. With both, we accelerated to 60 mph and then hit the brakes with the throttle pedal still planted to simulate a condition where the floor mat might have stuck it in place. With both vehicles, we were able to safely slow to a stop despite the engine having been at wide-open throttle. After stopping, the engines idled even with the throttle pedal still floored.

"Verdict: The Mercedes and Volkswagen Smart-Throttle technology works."
— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 3:17:26 PM | | Votes: 3

And while there are possibly some serious design flaws here (causing the stuck accelerator), what prevents a driver from either killing the engine or, better yet, putting into neutral? I don't understand why that cop in San Diego didn't think of that, even though he had enough time to dial 911. Tragic accident, but I'm wondering if a cool head couldn't simply shut the engine off.
— 204E60 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 1:24:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

They panicked and the 911 Dispatcher also panicked by not realizing something as simple as putting the car in neutral would allow them to stop the vehicle. It will happen again because non of the news shows are saying anything about how to get out of the situation.
— LexSucks (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 5:34:10 PM | | Votes: 2

I want to see you try and be calm enough when your wife is hysterical next too you & your kids are in the back crying. You are out of your mind, if you think that you would be so calm as to think of all the correct actions to take. Talk about being an armchair quarterback.
— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 11:58:10 AM | | Votes: 2

The "Smart Throttle" technology is yet another example of good thoughtful engineering that is missing from Toyota products, including Lexus. I've heard so many comments about how Toyota/Lexus gives you the same level of luxury and refinement as their German counterparts, but I've always know that those attributes are only skin deep.
— JustaCar (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 1:47:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

you said a mouthful there... There is a reason German cars cost more other than the exchange rate. Actually in this case I was unaware of this feature but it goes to show that they are thinking of these type of things. I might have discounted such technology before the floor mat incidents, but now see their wisdom
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 2:44:48 PM | | Votes: 0

I've heard several mechanics mentioning that sometimes Toyotas and Hondas are simply better designed and more thoughtfully put together than their German counterparts. Sometimes even the Germans cut corners too. Just because it comes from Germany it doesn't mean that it is the ultimately engineered car.
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 6:01:20 PM | | Votes: 2

"Toyotas and Hondas are simply better designed and more thoughtfully put together than their German counterparts"

Here's another couterpoint I can give you. The automatic headlights on a typical Japanese car are controlled by a simple threshold sensor. So when you you're driving at dawn or dusk, in and out of tree-shaded areas, the lights keep going on and off. Not so on the typical German car. There is hysteresis built into the system that prevents this confusion.

Another example is the safety switch that disables the rear windows to prevent children from opening/closing them. On a typical Japanese car, when this switch is activated, it disables the rear windows completely. You can't even operate them from the driver's seat! In a typical German car, this safety switch only disables the window switches in the rear doors. The driver can still operate the rear windows.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is possible to believe that two vehicles are equal because they both have "the same features". But when you look at how these features are implemented, it becomes obvious that one implementation is well thought out and the other is just a check-in-the box.
— JustaCar (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 7:51:09 PM | | Votes: 3

Justacar:

No one is going to take his comment seriously. I own a honda odyssey and 2 german vehicles, while not in the same class, nearly, you can see the OBVIOUS meticulous thought that went into the german vehicle.

Only complaint I have with German cars is, at times, they may be too well-thought out where the inclusion of the design is out-trumped by the possible failure(electronic gremlins), cost and/or added weight.
— kablaam (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 6:09:10 AM | | Votes: 2

bmw was the first (and only for a long time) car maker to put 4-wheel disc ABS on their entire line... in 1986. there are still many cars today where this basic safety feature is extra.
— sstainba (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 3:00:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

smart throttle? how about smart driver? what is the use of such technology? did you check that one off on you uber-expensive german wanna-be sport car that's in reality a sedan? Seriously all the guy had to do was reach up where the steering wheel lever is and put the car in neutral. It's his fault he chose to drive a car he had no experience in. How he let the car reach those speeds without trying to depress the start stop button or switch to neutral or a lower D3 or D2 gear is beyond me. And this guy was an officer? I thought they trained them how to drive and save lives, not to take them. Of course this article was brought to you by none other than Agent009toyotahater. All BMW's and Mercedes' are perfect though.
— freshseth83 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 4:31:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

when your wife is crying and hysterical next to you & your kids are in the back seat upset and crying, you think of all the correct outs that you have at your disposal. How exactly are you going to do that? Then he panics & tries to compensate and avoid hitting the rail, but it is too late and the laws of physics take into place. You have been watching too many movies. Mr armchair quarterback!!
— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 12:03:05 PM | | Votes: 2

Anybody with a driver's licence and especially one with special training as that asshole CHiP guy who killed his entire family should have enough sense to know what each pedal and what each gear detent does. I don't blame Toyota one bit. I cannot believe that people are seeking instructions on how to disengage the engine from the driven wheels. LOTS more people died in events over the years because instead of thinking they were relying on others to think for them.
— tango (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 6:17:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Since this is another story dissing Toyota, can I just add this link here... Seems that this one got a lot of one sided press a couple days ago, and here's another side.

re:lawsuit against Toyota for destroying safety documents.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota-update-regarding-the-biller-111221.aspx
— thetruth01 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 7:47:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Oh god another article about the "evil" floor mats...why don't we ask the consumers whether or not they followed the directions when they were "installing" the floor mats. Did they put them over the factory carpet mats when it explicitly says DO NOT INSTALL OVER CARPET MATS. Then did the consumers use the supplied plastic clips that hook the mats and hold them into place?

This is another typical American consumer move where it is user error and they, the consumer, find a way to blame it on the manufacturer for something that would not have had a problem had the consumer READ THE INSTRUCTIONS when installing a factory accessory.
— KKO84 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 7:59:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, FU-K YEAH!!!!!

That rests my case.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 9:22:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Did Lack Of Critical Safety Features Play A Factor In Toyota Floormat Crashes? In Toyotas Defense (Yes you heard me right) IN TOYOTA'S DEFENSE.. What sort of safety features can you develope and implamint for this sort of oversight? There are none. This could have happend to any other Automaker ans I have heard of people using carpet as floor matts and having the same effect in other cars. Let it rest I am tired of the over done Toyota roast.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 10:23:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

You know UAW, if you guys Merged with Toyota; a scenario that looks inevitable in the future.

You would be the most dominant player on the Global Scene. Think about it. A Sports Sedan with Cadillac Floatiness, Lexus manuverablity, Chevy Volt Powertrain blown up to produce 4 times the power, It has a Lexus Silk look mixed with Cadillac Muscular Elegance.

You would be the number one brand and put your common Enemies Like Hyundai/KIA and Audi/VW to rest.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/16/2009 10:54:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

What many don't know is that has somewhat happened years ago Toyota sells a modest amount of cars designed by both companies in Japan. Only because their market is truly closed and the Japanese unlike Americans will buy mostly only Japanese products because the have what we lost decades ago a since of National pride and they work as a collective and we are a Nation of individuals and that right there my friend threatens this country's long term outlook. Look at the health care debate what it boils down to is the republicans losing a little bit of profit VS making our country better. You are a social worker I know you can relate to the struggles of the less fortunate.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 3:08:49 AM | | Votes: 4

I have a better idea, don't jam crap underneath the floormats. What engineering is there to prevent someone from driving with their eyes shut? I'm sure they'd fault Toyota for that one.
Better yet, to paraphrase Chris Rock, how about driving with your feet? I shouldn't but I can, and then I can blame the company for not putting in leg seatbelts.

According to this article, Toyota is developing this technology into their cars now. I guess the intelligence of some Toyota drivers has now dropped down to nearly the same level as the German drivers.

Hey ma, I can afford to be a retard becuase someone will just create technology to look after me. hyuk, hyuk, hyuk!
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 12:21:28 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

not the intelligence of toyota drivers but of drivers period. Laziness and incompetence. Foolishness and ignorance. That's what people like they guy who crashed his lexus RENTAL are.
— freshseth83 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 3:30:27 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

So, is everybody who's blaming the stupidity of the driver dismissing the value of the smart throttle technology? Is that it? Do they suppose the officer brought some floormats with him to incorrectly place in his rental car? Have they ruled out the possibility that other objects can find themselves under the accelerator pedal in other manners or that smart people can occasionally make dumb automotive mistakes (looking at my wife as I type that) ? Have they made themselves content in the idea that a technology that gives the brakes priority in a situation where the car is being driven at speed with the accelerator and brake pedal both depressed has deprived them of some useful function or decided that if their loved one (husband, wife, son, daughter, etc.) made an error in judgement they deserved to die for their stupidity, especially because it would raise the price of their beloved, relatively inexpensive Japanese car?

Fools, all of you. Enjoy your purchase.
— AlleVier (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 11:23:19 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I agree. It is pathetic for people to blame everything on the driver, but that is what happens when people don't take accountability for their own actions. The day after watching football or after their team loses, they become know it all's. The armchair quarterback.

German cars tend to cost more due to the active and passive technology. Better handling with a better suspension may have helped this guy? Better brakes or smart throttle technology? You get what you pay for. You want less expensive due to not being able to afford a expensive german car, but slam those cars due to you not being able to justify it. Here is a great example. Unfortunately, someone had to lose their life to see the flaw in design. But I know the people on here would rather blame the individual, cause it is easier & makes more sense. complete idiots on here.
— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 12:10:18 PM | | Votes: 1

Justacar,
Why is Lexus and Toyota still the only car company with knee airbags? Something the Germans overlooked or cheaped out on since it costs a bit more than writing a few lines of code for the car's computer.

I'll give you that Toyota is only putting in the code now.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 3:43:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

"Why is Lexus and Toyota still the only car company with knee airbags? "

They are not.
— JustaCar (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 4:29:55 PM | | Votes: 5

Knee air bags wont save your life and add wieght/cost to a car.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 4:40:18 PM | | Votes: 3

Knee airbags? Another means for Toyota/Lexus to market their "safety lead" to gullible consumers.
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 5:18:45 PM | | Votes: 5

You know, my 6 year-old BMW has knee airbags.
— SP2Hybrid (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 1:19:10 AM | | Votes: 2

1UAW you would be a large Mulitnational Japanese/American Company.

Though, I dont think the Japanese would go for Mexican Made Toyotas in the deal.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 7:06:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

We dont make many cars in Mexico we just got the Aveo back this year in talks with GM. It will be made in Michigan along side a new Buick starting next year. Mexico is becomeing to violent to do business in anymore with all the drugs and kidnapping.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 2:55:05 AM | | Votes: 2

justacar,
Okay, so the Mitsu Lancer has them, and the 2010 Porsche Panamera. So what now when Toyota implements the "smart throttle"? I don't see the mainstream German cars ponying up the money to install knee airbags. Some even have the gaul to charge $500 for rear curtain airbags.

Although, smart throttle won't matter if your brakes don't work.
2009 X5/X6 rear disc brake make "break" off. AutoLies and 009 are sure quiet on this recall.
http://www.ridelust.com/bmw-issues-massive-recall-for-2009-x5x6/

Apparently don't expect the airbags to help because they don't work either.
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/bmw/x5.htm

Here's VW's own brakeline defect.
http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/safety-recall-74-vw-passat-brake-wiper.htm

1uaw,
I forgot to mention that Toyota has developed a rear airbag and rear centre passenger airbag in the JDM, should arrive here in the next year or so.

Willis,
Toyota backs up their claim. How many accidents are caused due to stupidity vs Toyota floormats? I'd rather have extra airbags that will save my life and/or my ability to walk when SOMEONE ELSE hits me than some computer code that may never be needed (still nice to have though).
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/17/2009 11:18:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

"I forgot to mention that Toyota has developed a rear airbag and rear centre passenger airbag in the JDM, should arrive here in the next year or so."

its pointless... passengers in the rear seat wearing safty belts (which is the law in my state) most likely wont hit the front windshield or frony passenger seats if buckeld up correctly. This ceartinly is just another avenue for Toyota to make money by charging for this as an add-on.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 3:00:08 AM | | Votes: 2

Huu, if you want to bring up brakes, let's talk about Toyota brakes. Look at any test of a Toyota/Lexus product. Their braking performance is always dismal compared to the competition. They can put all these airbags in their cars for bragging rights (just like the self parking features that doesn't really work). The fact is that Toyota products are lacking when it comes to "active safety".
— JustaCar (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 7:26:50 AM | | Votes: 3

Justacar,
Do you mean the S550 vs the LS? Well, both stop in the same distance. I'll dig up the tests that prove it if you want.

Germans cars are apparently lacking in active "brakes".

UAW,
What? Front windshield? The rear airbag covers the back windshield so nothing hits you from the back. That rear airbag behind the front seats is a pretty good idea actually. You should patent it before Toyota does.

Both of you are awfully quiet about the centre airbag which prevents people from flying into on another or objects flying around in the cabin. Also, what about he rear disc brake that may or may not break off on the X5/X6?

I notice the NHTSA didn't advise BMW owner to remove and not use the rear brake discs that may break off. I wonder why that is? Seemed to be a good enough solution for Toyota's floormat.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/18/2009 4:29:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

TWO Problems:

1. Toyota has an issue with the floormat and / or the pedal position sensors

2. They don´t have somebody they could copy the solution from, that´s why they rely on this cheap plastic thing to solve the issue (hopefully)

(3. knee airbags won´t help in this situation)

But for now I think we can start to focus on other topics again, we had a good lough.
— agent507 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/19/2009 3:42:54 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

well why dont u buy a toyota and take it the floor mats?
— lambo98 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/19/2009 6:19:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Justacar,
Give me proof of your claims.

I remember when the LS first came out everybody was yapping at how poorly the pre-production model's braking performance was. Then when they updated the tires on the production models, it stopped in the same 124ft distance that the S550 took.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/19/2009 10:40:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

huu - You are such a fanboy. Find me a breaking comparison, actually find a couple, that have the Lexus products outbreaking a BMW. You mentioned how in 1, only 1 article at that, in which the LS was able to stop in the same distance as the S550. But breaking isnt that big of a deal, nor is how it handles, but gadgets and soft leather is. Hey, if you are not going to be the safest, you might as well be the most comfortable.

— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 10/19/2009 11:31:20 AM | | Votes: 3

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Did Lack Of Critical Safety Features Play A Factor In Toyota Floormat Crashes?

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