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Ever Wonder Why Detroit Gets A Bad Rap?

I was mulling an "all the forces seem to be conspiring against Detroit" case Thursday when I spied, in the parking lot, a silver-and-black Dodge Challenger SRT8 powered by a 6.1-liter Hemi.

Now? Amid record oil prices, $4-a-gallon gas, semi-hysterical consumers swapping Ford F-150 pickups for Focus compacts, congressional leaders and the presumptive presidential nominees of both parties pushing global climate change legislation that would make any French legislator proud, California vowing to write its own emissions rules and a prevailing public mood that essentially equates big-block V-8s with a pack of unfiltered Camels?

Can't imagine why Detroit gets a bad rap, whatever the arcana of its individual product cycle plans. Perception is reality to folks outside the automotive bubble -- you know, the people who actually buy the stuff -- and the perception is that Detroit is pushing the wrong new metal for the times and losing a lot of money doing it because, well, it is.

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Ever Wonder Why Detroit Gets A Bad Rap?



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sold2earlysold2early - 6/6/2008 2:47:01 PM
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vdivvdiv - 6/6/2008 2:58:31 PM
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Really sad. Making cars with solid rear axles, drum rear brakes, 4-speed auto trannies, and push-rod engines in the 21st century is what Detroit produces. And the reason why they are still alive, barely so, is because there are still people that buy their cars with obsolete technology.

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utahnkidutahnkid - 6/6/2008 3:28:37 PM
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Last time I saw a 4 speed in a car I was looking at the specs of a (not American) 08 Mitsubishi Eclipse. Doesn't sound like you actually know that much about cars..

Solid rear axles and drum rear brakes along with 4 speed trannies help manufactures create less expensive cars. Most people don't need something that fancy to get to work every day.

If you ever wonder why you never made it to the top of any car manufacturer, just look back at your comments.


Need4SpeedNeed4Speed - 6/6/2008 3:42:37 PM
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Drum rear brakes...ever looked at a Base Camry/Accord with a 4 cylinder engine lately?

Solid rear's...I guess all those people who bought the Toyota Yaris got gyped because Toyota seemed to have put a Torsion Beam in place of what should have been a fully independent rear.

Pushrod...hmmm...0 to 60 in under 4.5 and still returns 28MPG on the highway...old technology?...so what!

"...because there are still people that buy their cars with obsolete technology." -oh well I guess not everybody is hating on Detroit these days!



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 6/6/2008 3:59:05 PMView My AgentSpace
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Of course it isn't. That was his point. Perhaps the pushrod engine is, in a way, superior. It delivers great numbers and great fuel efficiency in the Corvette.


91z4me91z4me - 6/6/2008 4:00:13 PM
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TheBoss,

Why not it has a hydroformed spaceframe that provides incredible strength as well as being very lightweight? It has a rear mounted transmission and a very light, compact, and cheap to produce high powered V8.

How is that not high tech?


EnnNorakEnnNorak - 6/6/2008 8:53:52 PM
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utahnkid, solid rear axles and rear drum brakes are a safety issue. There is no point in driving to work if you get killed or seriously injured doing so. A car should handle and brake well in addition to getting you to work. The incremental cost of building a good car is quite small. Some companies are still trying to shave pennies off the cost at the expense of the consumer -- these companies will not survive as today's consumer is not the idiot of yesteryear.


damikcodamikco - 6/6/2008 10:09:55 PMView My AgentSpace
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You dont belong on this site if you belive cars are still largly produced this way. wake up and dont be so biased.


TheSailorTheSailor - 6/7/2008 8:25:46 AMView My AgentSpace
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The pushrod engine is just old-fashioned, not out-dated! The only reason why japanese and european manufacturers don't like it is because it isn't as good for high revs (though the vette makes it quite high on the rev scale). Actually, you have a more reliable engine (as long as you don't over-rev it) with fewer moving components. This means that you can get better efficiency since you have far less components for the engine to turn!
A modern V8(or 6 for that matter) from BMW, Audi or Lexus will have 4 camshafts driven by timing belts (or chains) and a lot of sprockets. If a single component fails, your engine will die a horrible death! And because of all that rotating mass, you have a lot of dead weight for the engine to pull (meaning less power from your gas = lower efficiency)! The LS2 has ONE camshaft driven by two gears (one on the cam and one on the crank) meaning far less components! IF a single pushrod should buckle, the valve will close and if you are lucky, nothing more will happen to your engine... This is not a valid senario for an OHC-engine! A broken timing belt will cause your valves to stick in the position they were, and when the piston comes up, the piston AND the valve will be toast - along with the header and probably the cam shaft as well! New isn't always better!
Modern ships still use push rod engines for the electric generators and those engines have an efficiency of more than 40%!

And as other people mentioned, while drum brakes and a solid rear axle does seem old-fashioned, it isn't necessarily a bad thing! If you are just looking for an econo-box to transport you from a to b and you are not a road warrior eating up tar mac, those components will do just fine, and they cost way less than modern components!


TheSailorTheSailor - 6/7/2008 9:06:47 AMView My AgentSpace
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EnnNorak,

Did you know that the rear brakes aren't loaded nearly as much as the front brakes? And that in snowy or rainy weather, a drum brake can actually be safer than a drum brake?
Normally a disc brake will be better, true, but that doesn't mean that rear drum brakes makes your car unsafe! And with all the old junkers on american roads, you have fr greater issues in taking care of those than somebody driving around in a car with drumbrakes at the rear!


vdivvdiv - 6/7/2008 4:32:44 PM
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OK, fine! Allegedly I may not know much about cars, but am certainly good at ruffling feathers :).

I stand behind my comments as general and as crude as they may be. American-designed and made cars (that includes many Honda and Toyota models) can be much more technologically advanced than they are. Whatever the reasons they are not, the lack of sophistication is responsible for the lack of competitiveness and ultimately the fate of their makers.


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 4:18:14 AMView My AgentSpace
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Sailor, I agree partially, but not all ohc engines die. Toyota engines are not zero tolerance. you can break a timing belt at 4000rpm like I did in my 92 celica back in the days, and not bend a valve because the piston will not collide with the valve, however most engines are not like this, and they will fail. We had to replace almost all of the valves on a 1.8t angine in a volkswagen bug.


TheSailorTheSailor - 6/10/2008 10:10:24 AMView My AgentSpace
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Okay, of cause there will always be an exception to the rule, however, most modern engines run with quite high compression ratios and this leaves very little gap for the valve when the piston is in TDC. Anyway, my point is that the timing belt and all the other gadgetry in an OHC-engine means that you are more likely to have a very serious breakdown should something give way!


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 3:33:25 PMView My AgentSpace
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I agree with you sailor. Thats why I'm glad BMW used timing chains, and an inline 6 will outlast any v engine because rather than having 1 bearing between every two rods, you have one between every rod in the inline 6. For example an inline 6 has 7 main bearings on the crank where a v8 only has 5. So an inline6 that is timing chain driven is ideal to me. But your point is very well taken, remember to old ford 300 cubic inch inline6. You couldn't kill it!


TheSailorTheSailor - 6/11/2008 11:58:30 AMView My AgentSpace
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I think that is actually a question of who you ask, because some experts will claim that due to the fact that an engine with only one row (An inline engine), only puts load on each main bearing once every two revolutions, the crank will flex putting uneven strain on bearings and journals. A V-engine will put equal strain on each journal during each revolution because there will be a combustion pr stroke pr journal... But I believe in your version, the other one is just something one of the instructors at maritime college put forth, however, other instructors believe more in the other version... But I guess that we can now conclude that the most reliable engine would be an inline engine with one camshaft driven directly by the crankshaft and with lots of room on top of the pistons... Well... I guess that would put us back to the 30's :D That's basically a Dusenberg!


blueshirts0819blueshirts0819 - 6/6/2008 3:14:07 PM
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Let gas go to $6 per gallon. I'm really enjoying watching these US automaker flop like a fish since all SUV and pickup truck are collecting dust at the dealership.

Why can't they produce any hybrid or diesel cars for the masses but instead offer "2.99 gas is all you pay" ads.

Instead of making a decent hybrid car to go against the prius they go and develop a hemi v8 challenger.

Let the US gov. bail them out in about 5 years.


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91z4me91z4me - 6/6/2008 3:56:52 PM
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blueshirts0819,
Why don't you just say "I know nothing and am just being a fanboy?" and save yourself a breath?

"I'm really enjoying watching these US automaker flop like a fish since all SUV and pickup truck are collecting dust at the dealership."
Are you enjoying watching Tundras and Sequoias collecting dust also. That is right Toyota is making some of the least fuel efficient trucks on the market right now, and they are a new market to them at that. Are you enjoying watching the Ridgeline rot on the lots as well? With as much mileage as a Silverado or Avalanche yet half the capability it was doomed to failure.

"Instead of making a decent hybrid car to go against the prius they go and develop a hemi v8 challenger. "

Chrysler is making a 2 door version of its LX large cars that are some of the best selling RWD cars on the market. It is appealing to enthusiests on a small scale (since very few will be produced). Much like a GS-F would be to the GS line. GM is testing the Volt which could make the Prius look like a start stop hybrid by comparison. It also has both the start/stop hybrid cars on the market and both FWD and RWD 2 mode systems. Ford is launching the Ecoboost engines on most of its models to save fuel across the board without sacrificing performance.

Do a little more reading on other forums and get some real world experience before you venture out of the kiddie pool.


ilmorilmor - 6/6/2008 6:57:17 PM
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So...what do YOU drive. I bet I could make fun of it!! Hey, and if you don't like US cars and trucks, then don't buy one, shut up and move to Iran!!


blueshirts0819blueshirts0819 - 6/6/2008 7:25:22 PM
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"ilmor" reading your comments makes me embarrassed being an American.

I guess incest do produce pea size brain such as youself.

sad soul.


Maverick2020Maverick2020 - 6/6/2008 3:18:07 PM
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Detroit is a sea of mediocrity.

Although GM has some nice product and has made a decent turnaround of some of its brands and some of its product portfolio, I have less hope for Ford and no hope whatsoever for Chrysler.

Time for a little creative destruction.

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EnnNorakEnnNorak - 6/6/2008 9:01:58 PM
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I agree fully Maverick 2020, I think that GM will be the only one of the original big 3 to survive. I can't believe all the trailer trash comments above from car-guy-wannabees who display a complete lack of understanding of the benefits of current automotive technology. Their defense of the American auto industry would be admirable without their silly comments.


t_bonet_bone - 6/6/2008 4:22:30 PM
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The evil goes back a long way. For starters, google "Great American Streetcar Scandal"

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Htay7500Htay7500 - 6/6/2008 5:06:31 PM
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I can see GM holding themselves with their new and back on top cars, but fords division mercury and lincoln, I dunno if theirs any hope for them. and I hope chrysler does something with their sebring to target accord and camry buyers. given their massive recalls, they need a fresh new start.

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85bmw745i85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 4:22:26 AMView My AgentSpace
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Yeah the sebring is so ugly and odd. I saw one up close at the dealer. Ever look at the c pillar how is has black paint trying to make it round out when it is really not rounded. Kinda makes it look like a lightly camouflaged test mule. The whole car looks so odd and like a styling gimmick.


bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 6/6/2008 5:30:59 PM
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another ignorrant article about American car companies.........Who created the misguided perception that only American car companies are making gas guzzlers its been like that for awhile...people say look at the Escalade well what about the LX570....or this article which mentions the SRT8 what about the S5...the Tundra gets as poor gas mileage as the F150 but never any mention of an import. The X6, or the new FX50 gas guzzlers, the new M3, RS4, and others. Not to mention the many 16-17mpg compact luxury sedans in a time where big horsepower is the hot button. Or the fact the Maxda CX9 only can muster the same gas mileage as an X6..15mpg or why does the 4cylinder RDX get 16mpg the same as the 6.2 liter Corvette.....So instead of trashing Detroit why not call out all offenders...not just the usual suspects...........you might see REALITY thats its probably alot more

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bmwdrvrbmwdrvr - 6/6/2008 5:34:38 PM
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so my point in a summary......they arent pushing the wrong new metal....they are fighting perception ignorrant perception....and that takes more than good product it also takes good product, time, and customers giving them a chance to prove it.....and perception is what they are having trouble fighting most of all no matter how wrong it often is


damikcodamikco - 6/6/2008 10:33:58 PMView My AgentSpace
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You are right it is a lowly perception that is fueld buy jumping on the bandwagon to attack American made cars when truly all makers have gas guzzelrs and not just the US. Its to easy to say American cars are poorley made when GM has one of the longest warranties in the industry, or all american cars are not fuel efficent when detroit is producing a sports car the can compete in terms of mpg with sedans. Im sick of hearing it


TheSailorTheSailor - 6/8/2008 8:56:30 AMView My AgentSpace
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Well... It is not the companies fault that people drive gas guzzlers, it is the peoples fault! The companies just build what they can produce. The reason why the american car industry has gotten a bad reputation is because they mainly produce gas guzzlers! The european and asian brands might produce some gas hungry cars, but most of their cars are small efficient cars which gives good mileage and are very clean. You just don't get that in the US as you mainly get the guzzlers!

But I agree, don't blame the companies! They are just trying to satisfy their shareholders... Though they are not doing a fantastic job!


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 4:26:14 AMView My AgentSpace
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I agree. America is going to produce what sells, and up till now the truck market has been their best selling market. It is not so much the automaker, they are only making what is in demand. Trucks have been our bes selling vehicles for a long time. look at F150 numbers, more than double their best selling car.


blueshirts0819blueshirts0819 - 6/6/2008 6:28:14 PM
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please "91z4me" before you even start typing or start an argument, use your brain before hand.


You realized all your argument are either "making or testing" about these car company???

WHERE IS THE PRODUCT???

I can tell you are probably an fanboy with your school bus SUV pissing and moaning at the pump.

Don't worry, is going to get worst before it gets better.



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I95SPEEDINGTICKETSI95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 6/6/2008 6:29:18 PM
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What you never seem to understand is that the more expensive vehicles will weather the storm better than the cheaper ones.

The Cheaper Offerings from GM/Chrysler/Ford were targeted at those who could not afford the More Expensive German Vehicles hence these are the same people who will be first hit by Rising Gas Prices.

The Average Range Rover, S5, S63 Buyer had Cheaper alternatives with similar power levels but went with the Best of the Best regardless of Cost, Hence they are more likely to stick with their Class of Vehicle.

As opposed to the guy who bought a Challenger with a Hemi so he could brag about his 0-60 times, when gas reaches $6 a gallon he is way less likely to buy another Gas Guzzler.

So you see. The time for offering Dressed up Junk at a slight Discount is gone. They need to have viable efficient Vehicles in the Showrooms now or else it will be a very painful 24 months.

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damikcodamikco - 6/6/2008 10:40:06 PMView My AgentSpace
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Get real man the guy that bought the charger will also own another daliy driver and drive his challenger or suv on the weekends just for enjoyment or camping (suv)


joesviperjoesviper - 6/6/2008 9:24:44 PM
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Go ahead bash the big 3 over and over...did you see the stock market today. No big three, no jobs, etc. and every American gets hurt.

After DR. Z and his friends ruined Chrysler (as he and his company are now pushing Hybrids and the SMART car) the only NEW Chrysler product left of any great news interest is the Challenger.

It is the only bright spot for this company at this time and they need to use it to their best possible advantage.

Funny no one wrote an article of how Mercedes Benz sucks because they are still producing the G55 in 2009 and that vehicle gets like 7mpg at best ?

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Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 6/6/2008 10:05:44 PM
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Bob Eaton and Jurgen Schremp ruined Chrysler. Dieter Zetche is certainly not the one to blame. He in fact brought us cars like the 300 and the LX platform on which the Challenger is built. Further, no one cares about the MPG of a vehicle like the G55, a car that makes up a smaller niche than the gas friendly Ferrari F430.


dodgedartdodgedart - 6/7/2008 1:35:23 AM
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RETRO-Tech will save domestic automotive industry. Dodge needs the next K car and a bail-out. I think I remember someone from chrysler's glh team quoted as saying they could engineer a better torsion beam rear axle than most import independent rear suspensions that were on the market. They should find that guy again. make old crap sound great!
People bought K cars, even if it was out of sympathy, or to keep workers busy. Drum brakes seem to work, as do solid rear axles. Maybe ford should bring back the twin i-beam suspension- that sounds really cool still. Call it retro- the marketing guys will make it sell real good. How about High Swirl Combustion? Fords answer to CVCC! Who is kidding anyone here? When you find your ford breaking at 36K miles they'll call that "classic" reliability. you'll be stuck with your "retro" warranty ending and feel good about knowing you are supporting a cause that's more than just a crappy domestic car. I have owned my share of domestic cars, I tried. They failed me- all before 60K miles.

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_43LE_43LE - 6/7/2008 10:20:49 PM
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I think that Detroit has historically made too many short term business decisions.

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neutralneutral - 6/8/2008 3:16:48 AM
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Detroit DOES get a bad rap, hands down. Americans really piss me off sometimes, we all love waving the flag and talking about "freedom" (which we really don't have much of these days) and then we jump into our Toyotas and Hondas not giving two rats' asses about our buying habits.

Yes, Detroit has made very very bad/stupid decisions, espeically in the 1970's through the mid 1990's. There is no debating this, and I don't want to have to list the myriad of mistakes we made, detroit just did dumb stuff. The competition came in from Japan, and detroit finally started to get its act together.

Whiny liberals (Barak Obama) always chastise detroit for making "big trucks that guzzle gas and pollute." Face it people, trucks are how business gets done and when businesses need trucks, they get a Ford/Dodge/GM. Businesses tend to buy the best product for the cheapest price, so the big 3 focused on making existing technologies cheaper and more reliable, something that has come to hurt detroit now with oil the way it is (4 speed transmissions!!). Either way, people need to stop blaming detroit for building trucks and SUV's and start blaming themselves for creating a demand for these vehicles. If detroit didn't make these vehicles back in the 90's and early 2000's, people would laugh at detroit for not capitalizing on an easy market.


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neutralneutral - 6/8/2008 3:22:20 AM
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Make a long story short, detroit screwed up royally in the past, but right now, things are a different story. Americans wonder why are economy is failing and the dollar is falling. Here's an idea, we're giving the Japanese billions and billions and billions of dollars every year that should stay in this country. American workers loose jobs and they don't spend money. Banks loose money because people go into forclosure b/c they have no jobs. Suppliers go out of business because Joe-Schmuck wants to pretend he's saving the world in his Camry. People are out of jobs, suppliers and other businesses loose out and the government collects tond less revenue for all sort of things like, oh I don't know, schools, roads, military, science, etc.

Make a long story short... If you are going to buy some everyday car (Camry/Accord/Malibu) and you don't even bother to check out what detroit is offering, you might as well join Americas enemies in other parts of the world.

In other words..... buying american helps america, buying foreign hurts america, especially when american companies woke up and started making good cars again.

for the record, Im just singling out the japanese because they are the biggest threat to american car companies (but hyundai is very, very impressive lately). Im not too worried about the Germans b/c they really don't compete with us too much.


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 10:04:32 PMView My AgentSpace
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Very well put Neutral
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