Farewell E320 Bluetec

huu76 submitted on 06/02/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 4:17 PM
from: money.cnn.com

[179] user comments | category: Spy Shots

Tags: Bluetec, diesel

Tag Links:

Bluetec

diesel

Farewell E320 Bluetec

This is shocking, even to me. However, the hypocrisy is even worse. The all mighty dollar speaks volumes, in any language.

It's apparent North America's emissions standards are too strict for diesels that Mercedes Benz, (and probably soon BMW and Audi) will only offer diesels in SUV form.

This paragraph sums up my disgust because of how blatant it is.

"Soon, it won't be available anywhere here. Mercedes-Benz will stop selling the E320 Bluetec in the U.S. as it begins selling new cleaner diesel SUVs that will be available in all 50 states. SUVs are held to lower emission standards that Mercedes-Benz was able to meet at a reasonable cost."

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/0706/gallery.kbb_fuel_savers/index.html Read Article

Comments:

Images hosted in your AgentSpace can now be posted in the comments section using the following syntax (case matters):
[img]IMAGE URL[/img]
Example: [img]http://agent004.myautospies.com/users/150/Sample-Gallery/sample1.JPG[/img]

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/2/2007 4:48:11 PM

-1 Boost

My god the hypocrisy! Only in America.

reply to this comment

528i - 6/2/2007 6:02:55 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

hahahahahaha who cares.?

reply to this comment

Rupert - 6/2/2007 6:13:22 PMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

OMG.
It's too expensive, and of course Mercedes should just stop making money to sell a few diesels.
I don't think it's shocking at all.
If Toyota lost money on the Prius it wouldn't sell it (so they made it expensive).

reply to this comment

SupraNeverBack - 6/3/2007 2:54:05 PM

+6 Boost

Cost and price should not be a problem for Mercedes because many people are still very happy to pay for overpriced Mercedes. If LS600h were in their hands, they could charge it for $200k. ^0^

huu76 - 6/2/2007 6:24:51 PM

0 Boost

If a $60,000 car that runs on 100 year old technology can't make a profit, Daimler-Benz has other issues.

As I've said, Bluetec is about nothing more than being able to sell diesels again in North America after we gave the TDI/CDI the boot.

Funny how the Europeans harp about us and our pickup trucks having a free pass on emissions, yet they're doing EXACTLY the same thing.

The first Prius did lose money, but they looked at it long term. Remember when the Insight was $30,000? Now the bigger Civic hybrid is only $26,000 and Honda can still make money. The current Prius is the same price, but you get more car for your money and Toyota has refined it enough to lower the cost. Did Bluetec even last a year over here?

You Europeans sure talk good, but when it's time to put up, you all run like France.

reply to this comment

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/3/2007 3:08:44 AM

+5 Boost

"You Europeans sure talk good, but when it's time to put up, you all run like France."

I definitely laughed at that one!

enp83 - 6/3/2007 9:03:57 AM

+1 Boost

The Insight was NEVER $30k, and the Civic Hybrid's MSRP is $23,195 ($3,090 more than an EX sedan automatic).

And yes Europeans love their subsidized diesel and heavily subsidized mass transit. However, if heavily subsidizing energy policies help them achieve better energy security than maybe we should consider doing the same. One problem with that is that the US is larger and more spread out than western Europe. If Germany was a US state, it would only be the 5th largest state. The EU is less than half the size of the US but has almost 2/3s more people.

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 4:09:01 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Are we still doing the subsidized thing here? I thought we were over that issue!

Fuel taxes in europe (except the UK) are actually quite a bit more sensible than the american ones since the fuel is taxed according to BTU/liter number... And since diesel packs more BTUs pr liter, it is taxed less.

EnnNorak - 6/2/2007 6:39:55 PM

+4 Boost

I would not be surprised if the Prius is still losing money -- but who knows -- there are all sorts of tricky ways accountants can present this. As for the demise of the Bluetec, I suspect it is only temporary as MB can only produce a limited number of these engines anyway. We are probably not being told the whole story; I would not be surprised if MB marketing folk have discovered consumer resistance to having to see the dealer to get the Bluetec's chemical tank refilled in order to keep the Bluetec system operating cleanly. Apparently the engine will not start at some point if you are on a long trip and your special chemical tank runs dry. I have said before that the 72-degree angle between cylinder banks on the newest E-class V6 diesel makes me suspect that a V10 version is coming. A V10 may be in response to Audi's magnificent 500 h.p. V12 diesel engine. Anyway, I'm still hoping to see a nice 4-banger diesel in a more reasonably priced C-Class -- I need the range for long distance vacation drives.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 6/2/2007 6:49:31 PM

-2 Boost

Enn,
Shouldn't they have loads of these engines since Europe likes diesels so much?
The heart of Bluetec is ULSD. If you put the old stuff in it, all the filters and pumps and magic tricks only reduces emissions by 10%.

The only real way to reduce emissions is to burn less oil, not hide it.
Case in point, the Prius uses approx 6.2 barrels of oil a year, the Jetta TDI used to burn 10.9 barrels.

They're making a consciuos choice, they're picking one form of green over another form of green.

I remember when some smear comparison tried to make the base E320 Bluetec to be only $1000 over the regular gas one, and said how greate it was over a fully loaded GS450h. All smoke and mirrors?

I just realized, basically MB is ceding the entire alternative fuel/powertrain market to Toyota/Honda/GM/Ford etc. They never had a economic competitor, now they don't have a luxury market one.

Wouldn't surprise me if they backtracked on Bluetec altogether and just sold regular diesels since ULSD takes care of most of the emissions anyway.

Your best bet is to wait for VW, maybe they'll show enough decency to accept breaking even.

reply to this comment

chewy - 6/2/2007 9:04:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

The heart of Bluetec is not ULSD. ULSD is necessary to keep the particulate filter clean. That's all.

IamEvilHomer - 6/3/2007 1:44:41 AM

0 Boost

the is a lie
shw me one person that gets the 60mpg that the prius clames and i will dance in a dress

chewy - 6/2/2007 7:12:19 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Guess what buddy. How do you like your hypocrisy served. Many companies make PZEV vehicles (as clean as it gets) but they only sell them in the 5 states. This get a 9 clean rating by the EPA. BUT, the same automakers sell dirtier (7 or worse) vehicles in all of the other states. Toyota does this with its hybrids. What dirty little hypocrites you shold say. Why doesn't Toyota sell its clean PZEV cars in ALL states instead of only 5??? MONEY. I guess they want to save money also. Get it???

Plus the 2008 Jetta TDI will be for sale in all 50 states very soon. It will be cleaner than the first PRIUS.

reply to this comment

chewy - 6/2/2007 7:23:59 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

But this is a nice reminder that it is time for the EPA to stop giving "light trucks" freebies.

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 6/3/2007 11:25:03 AM

+2 Boost

absolutely. i think everyone has missed that point.

mbz350 - 6/2/2007 7:35:44 PM

+2 Boost

This will not be taking place anytime soon. As a dealer you can still order and configure an 08 E320 Bluetec.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 6/2/2007 7:37:47 PM

-1 Boost

There's a difference Chewy. MB isn't losing money, they're just not making as much as they want. That's what really irks me the most.

The Prius' in the 45 states is still far and away cleaner than anything else.

PZEV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_zero-emissions_vehicle
Pretty much all hybrids already meet SULEV (what PZEV is) standards, even SULEVII. I believe the best Bluetec\Bluetmotion only meets Tier2 Bin 5.

I just remembered that VW cancelled the Lupo 3L because it couldn't make money. However, the new Jetta TDI will be going up against the current Prius and Prius 3, not the first Prius.

reply to this comment

Rupert - 6/2/2007 8:10:23 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

I'm sure part of this is the strong euro and weak dollar. It's making it very hard for European makers to make any money in the US.

reply to this comment

Matthew1 - 6/2/2007 8:22:46 PM

+3 Boost

Maybe the US should standardize ULSD to see the best results from the new Diesel technology.

Huu, you say "The heart of Bluetec is ULSD" like that's a bad thing. A push for better quality and higher-octane fuels have a positive effect on the environment, with reduced emissions and better economy regardless of engine type.

I mean 91 octane (premium!?!) is a utter joke.

Your '100 year old technology' comment is ignorant but then I wouldn't expect anything else from you. As manufacturers across the board strive to reduce emissions and increase economy with the latest technology (Bluetec) your predictable ramblings are becoming even more irrelevant, if you weren't in the first place.

Because you are a keyboard-whore and not someone who actually makes decisions based on real-world experience and knowledge, you fail to see that clean diesel technology suits many drivers better than Hybrids. The increase in driver satisfaction is enough for many and outweighs any 10 grams of C02 difference between its nearest dull-driving competitor.

YOU are the biggest hypocrite of all. Spouting on about Europe's ignorance when you are sitting on your arse in a country where 80% of vehicles are big and thirsty.

Visit Europe and you will only see small, economic, and fun, most with the latest diesel technology. Canada may be large, but its cars don't have to be.

Again, you are a keyboard-whore and nothing more. Your posts are scarcely as insightful as you think they are, and your failure to report both sides of the story marks you out as nothing more than an irrelevant, biased and dare I say ethnocentric fool.

reply to this comment

Rupert - 6/2/2007 8:41:37 PMView My AgentSpace

+8 Boost

I laugh at American gas, we don't even sell 91 in Europe.
The lowest it goes is 95, and in poorer countries I think 93.

Huu does talk crap, continually ranting about how Europeans are lazy, stupid, slow, stuck in the dark ages, not promoting new technology, addicted to diesel, whores to America and pathetic.
This coming from a Jeep owner, a car so useless for (I'm guessing a single) man like huu it's ridiculous. A gas guzzler to the extreme, an old tech engine, from a company that refuses to adopt new technology, a car that apparently has a 47% chance of mechanical failure.
huu is the hypocrite (europeans are lazy, yet he drives a jeep), huu is the ignoramus (bluetec is apparently 100 years old, but obviously petrol engines aren't, and apparently one can drive from one side of Europe to the other in 2 hours), huu is biased (run like France? And talking of the old Jetta tdi with old diesel tech)) and above all huu is useless and contributes nothing car based at all to this site, only rants about Europe and America.
Why can't Americans have small cars? Why do they need giant V8s? Why does he think Europeans are anti-hybrid? Why huu, why?

chewy - 6/2/2007 9:03:41 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Rupert, different octane ratings in US than in Europe.

91 here is 95 in Europe. And max here is 93, but not on the West coast. But you are correct on the other points.

sewingmachine - 6/2/2007 9:04:19 PM

0 Boost

i swear every post matty makes, he's so angry.

Matthew1 - 6/2/2007 9:23:27 PM

+1 Boost

Angry? Or fustrated?

Huu76 has that effect on people.

huu76 - 6/2/2007 10:44:02 PM

-3 Boost

My Jeep is quite good at pulling firewood, supplies to do home renovations, sod and numerous other things you guys have no idea about. We even have things called boats and recreational vehicles. Believe it or not, owning multiple properties is actually achievable here w/o being royalty.

So yes, it's quite useful for a single fella like me.

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/3/2007 3:11:40 AM

+2 Boost

I totally agree with you Matthew!

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/3/2007 3:15:24 AM

+1 Boost

For the record, the highest octane fuel we get here is 102 octane BP. Shell V-power, Total excellium all have 100 octane.

M53R - 6/3/2007 9:29:40 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Rupert

Best comment I have ever heard on Autospies.
You deserve a reward buddy....

Rupert - 6/3/2007 9:59:29 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Single and with a 4.0 Jeep...I don't understand.
Pulling firewood? How many times a year?
Supplies for home renovations? Again, how often? And also my tiny little car can carry plenty of stuff.

S4cabriofoxone - 6/3/2007 11:36:51 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I got about twenty huge pieces of plywood into my little 2.0T A3. On the way home, it still got 26mpg. There's proof that you can lug wood and still be green.

izfuney - 6/2/2007 10:31:33 PM

-6 Boost

Mercedes doesent need America ??? Well if we removed the US from the equation all the German manufacturers would go straight to the toilet.

And dude! you may not like Toyota or even its products but it speak miles about your miserable inferiority complex when you call it trash and the millions of american who prefer it over the anything made in EU as retarded.
It may be a foriegn concept to you . But out here we call it "choice"...
Take a moment and reflect on that.

reply to this comment

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/3/2007 3:17:43 AM

+2 Boost

Mercedes DOES NOT need America to sell diesels. Other than that the USA is one of the most important markets.

reply to this comment

Carboy - 6/2/2007 10:01:49 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to this comment

izfuney - 6/2/2007 10:26:26 PM

-2 Boost

While you may not agree with Huu76, you are entitled to vent against him. Leave the US out of it. And leave the JEEP out of it.
You may not like or even understand it. But the Jeep Wrangler is the best damn offroader there is. Yes and that includes Cayenne. Period ..

As for V8's in the US every common man can have a rumbling v8 monster as opposed to the EU where you have to fork out 100k+ to have one.

Which leaves the Hybrid / Diesel debate. Which is a good one . Me - I prefer hybrids as they embrace the next level of technology about burning less fossil fuels. Diesels too have their proponents.

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 6/3/2007 11:37:59 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

He doesn't have a Jeep Wrangler. He has a big, ugly, clumsy, thirsty Jeep GC.

huu76 - 6/2/2007 10:35:37 PM

-6 Boost

Do your research Rupert,
My Jeep is no dirtier than the V6 Touareg. 20yrs later and VW still can't do any better than Jeeps I6. Similiar mileage too. And Germans think their engineering is good, what a crock.
Bluetec is a diesel engine with soupcans bolted on, and some nasal spray for the exhaust. If not for ULSD, Bluetec wouldn't even work.
We do have small cars, you're just too busy focusing on the pickup trucks. I have a better question, why is Europe incapable of selling a SULEV vehicle, and making it affordable?

Like it matters, but Canada gets 94 octane. Do you even know what octane is? What's funny is that Europeans can't admit they only like diesel because they're tightwads.

Mathew,
Having ULSD do all the work isn't bad, I was pointing out that most of the reduced emissions isn't because of the engine, but the fuel. It means you really don't need Bluetec to get most of the benefits from ULSD.
This basically says Bluetec is dependent on ULSD, not vice versa.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=118927
Straight from MB USA, so nothing bad to say. Basically says clean diesel relies on 3 things, and has to be all 3. Hybrids just need 1, and it doens't care what gas gets put into it.
http://www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alternative-fuels/index.do
Formula,
That's alright, N.America doesn't need Europe or anything in it. Europe is the only place diesels sell, that is until 2014 when gas/diesel taxes are finally the same.
Must be a lot of retards in Europe as well, as Toyota is doing pretty good there too.

Europe better learn to reduce oil consumption real quick. The US isn't going to be your provider forever.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/01/news/international/russia_bp/index.htm?postversion=2007060118
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/news/0705/gallery.oil_bad_boys/index.html

You're all just pissed I've outed Europe as being a continent of cheap hypocrites. "We're better than America even when all our actions prove we're worse". "Diesel is better because it's subsidized". This little tidbit article is just another in a long line of smoking guns.

So anyone have anything relevant to say? You should all know insults don't phase me.

reply to this comment

chewy - 6/2/2007 11:55:06 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Silly kid, take the VW range. Rabbit/Jetta both have a very affordable (15k) PZEV engine. JUST AS CLEAN AS THE PRIUS. Silly.

IamEvilHomer - 6/3/2007 1:48:49 AM

+2 Boost

huu you will believe any marketing

Rupert - 6/3/2007 10:05:23 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Your I6 Jeep emits 40g more Co2, has 100 less hp than a touareg, gets worse MPG and is 2 seconds slower. And the Touareg does this while being bigger and 600 kg heavier. So as too VW not being able to improve engines, you're talking about as much crap as usual.

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/4/2007 12:54:45 PM

0 Boost

I would love to see his reply on your comment Rupert! This is starting to get hilarious!

huu76 - 6/2/2007 10:40:54 PM

-2 Boost

Mathew,
btw, only 55% of vehicles in N.A. are considered "thirsty". According to GMC anyway.

reply to this comment

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/3/2007 3:21:26 AM

+3 Boost

GMC as in gas-guzzling pick-ups and commercial vehicles that still use engineering from 60 years ago? Gotta love that pushrod V8 or that 4-speed auto. How about leaf-springs?

1995e34 - 6/3/2007 11:32:31 AM

+2 Boost

ONLY 55%!!!???

huu76 - 6/2/2007 10:50:16 PM

-1 Boost

This one's for you Chewy, since you seem to think Bluetec doesn't need ULSD.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/06/first_drive_in_.html

"The new engine is the foundation of Mercedes' Bluetec system, which promises record-low emissions when operated on low-sulfur fuel"

reply to this comment

chewy - 6/2/2007 11:53:38 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Cause the dirty fuel clogs up the particulate filter.

huu76 - 6/3/2007 1:02:16 AM

0 Boost

Okay, last one for tonight.

So basically you're repeating what I just said. ULSD is mandatory. No ULSD, no real emissions benefit.

chewy - 6/3/2007 1:19:53 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

That's like saying that a gasoline car is dirty on leaded fuel (cause the catalitic converter gets ruined because of the lead)

huu76 - 6/2/2007 10:51:14 PM

-3 Boost

Wow, 15 minutes and I rebuked every single one of you. You guys don't really put up much of a challenge for ppl who are always sure they're right.

reply to this comment

Matthew1 - 6/2/2007 10:53:18 PM

+1 Boost

One size does not fit all.

That's why there are different cars for different markets -different values, different opinions, different needs.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 6/2/2007 11:22:00 PM

-1 Boost

Today's been a good day for stumbling onto new information. The EPA's 2008 ratings are out, a lot of cars are missing but it's interesting to compare the LS600hL vs the 528i vs the Touareg V10 TDI.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2005findacarf.jsp

Diesel actually took a bigger hit in ratings than the gasoline versions. Wonder if anyone saw that one coming?

reply to this comment

huu76 - 6/3/2007 12:40:17 AM

0 Boost

Chewy,
If only it were that easy feature writer. Like ULSD, PZEV requires the right fuel. Hybrids, again, don't care what gas you put into them.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4024642#quick

"The PZEV's limited availability is not a result of sales volume, marketing or any other political force; it's all about fuel quality. The reformulated fuel available in what's called the California Emission States—California, Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine—make PZEV possible."

You can think about that one. 'night.

reply to this comment

chewy - 6/3/2007 1:02:06 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Good for you.

" fact, PZEVs can burn cleaner than some hybrids when the hybrids' gasoline engine does not meet SULEV standards."

This is what I am doing with my PZEV. The earth is thanking me one mile at a time. Probably like 20 billion times cleaner than your Jeep.

huu76 - 6/3/2007 1:05:02 AM

-1 Boost

Yeah, like the Vue Greenline maybe.

Yes, and 20 billion times cleaner than the brand spanking new German engineered Touerag.

Rupert - 6/3/2007 10:18:27 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

ULSD is like unleaded petrol, just because the US is behind everyone else does not make USLD a specialist fuel, it's regular stuff in Europe. USLD will become standard in the US, I'm sure.
Your Jeep is in no way cleaner than a V6 Touareg, and that's before we get to the diesel V6 version...
Tell you what, we'll make it fair. We'll compare the new GC with the new Touareg.
Right then. With the 4.7 V8 (smallest petrol engine in Europe), it has 230 hp, does 0-60 in 8.5, gets 19 UK mpg and emits 352 g/km CO2.
The Touareg with a 3.6 V6, has 276 hp, does 0-60 in 8.4, gets 20 UK mpg and emits 324 g/km CO2.
The Touareg does this while weighing 184 kilos more (about 400 pounds), and can tow equal amounts to the GC.
Why are Jeeps better again? And when a 4.7 can only get 230...a 12 year old Bimmer can get 280 out of a 4.4.
What's also fun is that a 5.7 HEMI gets only 14 hp more than a 5.0tdi, despite having a whole .7 litre more displacement, and despite the fact that diesels are apparently slow and inefficient.

huu76 - 6/3/2007 1:00:28 AM

-1 Boost

I lied.

Not seeing the Fit, Yaris etc on the list was bothering me. PZEV was intended for hybrids, turns out SULEV is basically PZEV but with longer warranties.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11297_7-6729563-6.html
http://www.dupontelastomers.com/autofocus/a1/af1.asp?article=regulations

All the missing cars are already basically PZEV, so there, Toyota/Honda and other cars are already clean enough they don't need PZEV extras.

Now I'm done. See ya.

reply to this comment

chewy - 6/3/2007 1:06:26 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Nope, not exactly. PZEV has 0 evaporative emmissions. From your own article.

But there is also a secondary form of emissions: evaporative emissions that escape into the air in the form of fumes. This kind of emission usually occurs during fill-up at the gas station, but also takes place by way of venting from the fuel tank—vaporization of the fuel when the engine is running and heat soak after the car is parked. Depending on the vehicle, evaporative emissions can rival that of tailpipe emissions on hot days when the evaporation threshold is lowered.

A PZEV vehicle is cleaner because it has 0 evaporative emmisions. A SULEV could still be emmiting emmisions after it's turned off.

1995e34 - 6/3/2007 2:50:16 AM

+1 Boost

well, time to stop buying suvs. but i think everyone hear is that smart anyhow.

reply to this comment

528i - 6/3/2007 2:55:51 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

huu76 owned everyone here..

reply to this comment

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/3/2007 3:24:32 AM

+3 Boost

He did?

M53R - 6/3/2007 9:34:35 AMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Actually, Rupert owned huu. Nice one! :)

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/4/2007 12:57:20 PM

0 Boost

Go Rupert!

S4cabriofoxone - 6/3/2007 11:42:21 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

And you fail to recognize the people who did such a good job combating him. Your Lexus bias shines through...

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 12:26:49 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

You mean like "My 20 year old Jeep is just as clean as the Touareg V6"?

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 11:28:52 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Hey huuey... How can a piece of technology piss you off so much? Or is it the fact that it is a german car and that you hate anything german (or european for that matter) that makes you be so resentful?!

The otto-engine is an even older and far inferior piece of technology! The only way they can make it competeable with a diesel engine is by fitting electric motors (hybrid technology is an old german invention also BTW)... That is not innovation, but a band aid solution! And soon, Mercedes will come out with their version of hybrids sporting an efficient diesel engine instead of that inferior engine used by Toyota (the atckinson cycle engine is just as inferior as the Otto)... How will you defend those ridiculously heavy and not any more efficient (than a regular diesel engine) gasoline hybrids then? Even without hybrid motors, the new 272 hp GASOLINE BMW 530i Efficient dynamics will give you similar performance and efficiency as the GS450h... I've even got the numbers to support that statement ready for you now:

http://www.autospies.com/news/BMW-530i-get-power-and-efficiency-boost-15581/

My post showing the numbers

http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=13706

main article:

http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=13706

Autobild test of the GS450h showing a fuel economy only marginally better than the BMW (1,2 mpg better) and that the GS450h is only 0,2 seconds faster than the 530i... Remember to look at the one saying "Testverbrauch"

http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=14088&artikel_seite=1

And did I mention that the 530i, FULLY loaded, is still 2500€ cheaper than the standard GS450h which doesn't even include sat nav (the package including sat nav is 8000+€)!

As to the Mercedes, it is a sound buisness decision to take a car off the market if you don't think you earn enough on it! How can that piss you off? And how dare you, the biggest hypocrate of them all, call anything or anybody hypocrates for doing a sound buisness move?

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 11:42:51 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

BTW: Do you even know what BlueTec is? or what it does? It doesn't have anything to do with the fuel! A urea style "scrubber" (it isn't a filter, it's a catalyst) like this one doesn't care what fuel you use! The system converts NOx into substances which breakdown in sunlight turning it into water and nitrogen... And the NOx is produced by high temperatures "fusing" nitrogen and oxygen together, and doesn't have anything to do with the fuel itself. The fuel might contain some nitrogen but it isn't anything compared to the amounts of nitrogen in the atmosphere!

The reason why the car won't do well (it will drive on it though) on the old dirty stuff is, as others have pointed out, because the highly efficient particulate filters (which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the NOx system) won't work properly with all that particulate producing sulfur in the fuel... And if you care about the environment, you won't buy the dirty stuff anyway...

reply to this comment

SupraNeverBack - 6/3/2007 2:48:31 PM

0 Boost

haha... I told you so long time ago, "Clean Diesel in 2009" is just a propaganda used by German 3s to try to stir things up before they could catch up on hybrids.

BTW, R&T got only 24mpg from E3320 Bluetec in their real world driving, 26mpg for GS450h, and 37mpg for Camry Hybrid.

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 2:55:34 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Apples and Oranges!

A car which is a whole class smaller and has far fewer ponies should be more fuel efficient. The 177 hp BMW 320d will absolutely kill the Camry Hybrid in a direct comparison. So will the A4 2.0TDI and the C220CDI... The BMW is both faster and more efficient...

SupraNeverBack - 6/3/2007 3:01:58 PM

-1 Boost

GS450h and Camry hybrid are not in the class with E320 Bluetec? GS450h is 200lbs heavier too and almost 2s faster. Camry hybrid is like 0.5~1sec slower but far more fuel efficient.

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 3:14:19 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

The Camry is definately not in the same class as the GS and the E... That is for certain! Only a blind die-hard fanboy would claim otherwise!

SupraNeverBack - 6/3/2007 3:34:03 PM

-1 Boost

Sport

It is in the July issue of R&T on E320 Bluetec update. C&D number was from almost all highway driving.

Sailor

How saving fuel has anything to do with the price of the car but not with its size?

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 4:02:09 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

WHAT?!?! That sentence makes no sence!

Are you talking about how to save the most fuel? Easy... Buy a compact! Don't come here and give that bull! Are you seriously suggesting that anybody buying a GS or an E-class would consider a Camry instead? SURE! The reason why people buy these cars, is because they want a luxury car, but want to look like they care about the environment... And they hate paying all that money for fuel!

SupraNeverBack - 6/3/2007 8:58:02 PM

+1 Boost

You think people buying dirty diesels do not care about environment? But I think they only care about their money.

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 6/4/2007 1:00:48 PM

0 Boost

I completely agree!

reply to this comment

huu76 - 6/3/2007 5:39:23 PM

0 Boost

Man, go to bed and the comments double. Anyway, everyone take a number, I'll get around to you.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 6/3/2007 5:42:26 PM

0 Boost

1. Sailor,
The only band-aid solution is Bluetec. Hybrids solve te pollution problem by not burning oil to begin with. Bluetec requires the fuel to be refined further, which is fine, but all the filters and exhaust treatments really don't do anything because the refining process already removed most of the carbon etc.

To answer you European diesel-hybrid.
First, the Germans won't make it affordable, so it won't make a difference.
Second. North America will have early hydrogen and PEVs by the time the Europeans can get a diesel-hybrid to market.

Let me know if I missed something and I'll refute it too.

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 6/3/2007 6:15:12 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

You missed the part showing that you have any idea what you talk about...

"but all the filters and exhaust treatments really don't do anything because the refining process already removed most of the carbon etc."

Already removed most of the carbons etc.?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Are you doing this on purpose or just plain dumb? Carbo-groups (and therefore carbon) is what you burn to get power, if you removed carbon you'd end up with a lesser product with less power (actually, you'd end up with gasoline)! The only thing which is removed to make fuel ULSD is sulfur in the oil! If you look at industrial grade gas oil and diesel, you can actually see the difference in that the diesel oil is way clearer because of the lack of sulfur particles. Carbon isn't even part of the equation here!

Didn't you read my full post? BlueTec urea based catalysts ONLY, and i can not emphasize this enough ONLY, deals with NOx. And NOx is NOT produced from burning the diesel but the combustion temperatures (which are higher and part of the reason for the higher efficiency of a diesel).

And as to the diesel hybrid, even if Mercedes doesn't make it affordable, PSA (yes those irritating french people) have promised that the Citroen C4 sucessor will be introduced with a diesel hybrid with a pricetag close to their present diesels... Meaning those will be both cheaper and more efficient than any gas-hyb car.

Last but not least,

"North America will have early hydrogen and PEVs by the time the Europeans can get a diesel-hybrid to market"

I'd like to see that before I believe it! Sure, Honda is ready with the FCX, but do you have any idea of the issues involved with hydrogen cars?

- The tanks vent off the hydrogen,

- hydrogen is only available 97 places in all of the USA, a proper infrastructure is years if not decades away,

- hydrogen is expensive and dirty to produce (since most of it is made from natural gas