Farewell E320 Bluetec

My god the hypocrisy! Only in America.

— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 4:48:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

hahahahahaha who cares.?

— 528i (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 6:02:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

OMG.
It's too expensive, and of course Mercedes should just stop making money to sell a few diesels.
I don't think it's shocking at all.
If Toyota lost money on the Prius it wouldn't sell it (so they made it expensive).

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 6:13:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

If a $60,000 car that runs on 100 year old technology can't make a profit, Daimler-Benz has other issues.

As I've said, Bluetec is about nothing more than being able to sell diesels again in North America after we gave the TDI/CDI the boot.

Funny how the Europeans harp about us and our pickup trucks having a free pass on emissions, yet they're doing EXACTLY the same thing.

The first Prius did lose money, but they looked at it long term. Remember when the Insight was $30,000? Now the bigger Civic hybrid is only $26,000 and Honda can still make money. The current Prius is the same price, but you get more car for your money and Toyota has refined it enough to lower the cost. Did Bluetec even last a year over here?

You Europeans sure talk good, but when it's time to put up, you all run like France.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 6:24:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I would not be surprised if the Prius is still losing money -- but who knows -- there are all sorts of tricky ways accountants can present this. As for the demise of the Bluetec, I suspect it is only temporary as MB can only produce a limited number of these engines anyway. We are probably not being told the whole story; I would not be surprised if MB marketing folk have discovered consumer resistance to having to see the dealer to get the Bluetec's chemical tank refilled in order to keep the Bluetec system operating cleanly. Apparently the engine will not start at some point if you are on a long trip and your special chemical tank runs dry. I have said before that the 72-degree angle between cylinder banks on the newest E-class V6 diesel makes me suspect that a V10 version is coming. A V10 may be in response to Audi's magnificent 500 h.p. V12 diesel engine. Anyway, I'm still hoping to see a nice 4-banger diesel in a more reasonably priced C-Class -- I need the range for long distance vacation drives.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 6:39:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Enn,
Shouldn't they have loads of these engines since Europe likes diesels so much?
The heart of Bluetec is ULSD. If you put the old stuff in it, all the filters and pumps and magic tricks only reduces emissions by 10%.

The only real way to reduce emissions is to burn less oil, not hide it.
Case in point, the Prius uses approx 6.2 barrels of oil a year, the Jetta TDI used to burn 10.9 barrels.

They're making a consciuos choice, they're picking one form of green over another form of green.

I remember when some smear comparison tried to make the base E320 Bluetec to be only $1000 over the regular gas one, and said how greate it was over a fully loaded GS450h. All smoke and mirrors?

I just realized, basically MB is ceding the entire alternative fuel/powertrain market to Toyota/Honda/GM/Ford etc. They never had a economic competitor, now they don't have a luxury market one.

Wouldn't surprise me if they backtracked on Bluetec altogether and just sold regular diesels since ULSD takes care of most of the emissions anyway.

Your best bet is to wait for VW, maybe they'll show enough decency to accept breaking even.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 6:49:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Guess what buddy. How do you like your hypocrisy served. Many companies make PZEV vehicles (as clean as it gets) but they only sell them in the 5 states. This get a 9 clean rating by the EPA. BUT, the same automakers sell dirtier (7 or worse) vehicles in all of the other states. Toyota does this with its hybrids. What dirty little hypocrites you shold say. Why doesn't Toyota sell its clean PZEV cars in ALL states instead of only 5??? MONEY. I guess they want to save money also. Get it???

Plus the 2008 Jetta TDI will be for sale in all 50 states very soon. It will be cleaner than the first PRIUS.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 7:12:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

But this is a nice reminder that it is time for the EPA to stop giving "light trucks" freebies.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 7:23:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

This will not be taking place anytime soon. As a dealer you can still order and configure an 08 E320 Bluetec.

— mbz350 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 7:35:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

There's a difference Chewy. MB isn't losing money, they're just not making as much as they want. That's what really irks me the most.

The Prius' in the 45 states is still far and away cleaner than anything else.

PZEV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_zero-emissions_vehicle
Pretty much all hybrids already meet SULEV (what PZEV is) standards, even SULEVII. I believe the best Bluetec\Bluetmotion only meets Tier2 Bin 5.

I just remembered that VW cancelled the Lupo 3L because it couldn't make money. However, the new Jetta TDI will be going up against the current Prius and Prius 3, not the first Prius.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 7:37:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

I'm sure part of this is the strong euro and weak dollar. It's making it very hard for European makers to make any money in the US.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 8:10:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

Maybe the US should standardize ULSD to see the best results from the new Diesel technology.

Huu, you say "The heart of Bluetec is ULSD" like that's a bad thing. A push for better quality and higher-octane fuels have a positive effect on the environment, with reduced emissions and better economy regardless of engine type.

I mean 91 octane (premium!?!) is a utter joke.

Your '100 year old technology' comment is ignorant but then I wouldn't expect anything else from you. As manufacturers across the board strive to reduce emissions and increase economy with the latest technology (Bluetec) your predictable ramblings are becoming even more irrelevant, if you weren't in the first place.

Because you are a keyboard-whore and not someone who actually makes decisions based on real-world experience and knowledge, you fail to see that clean diesel technology suits many drivers better than Hybrids. The increase in driver satisfaction is enough for many and outweighs any 10 grams of C02 difference between its nearest dull-driving competitor.

YOU are the biggest hypocrite of all. Spouting on about Europe's ignorance when you are sitting on your arse in a country where 80% of vehicles are big and thirsty.

Visit Europe and you will only see small, economic, and fun, most with the latest diesel technology. Canada may be large, but its cars don't have to be.

Again, you are a keyboard-whore and nothing more. Your posts are scarcely as insightful as you think they are, and your failure to report both sides of the story marks you out as nothing more than an irrelevant, biased and dare I say ethnocentric fool.

— Matthew1 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 8:22:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Mercedes doesent need America ??? Well if we removed the US from the equation all the German manufacturers would go straight to the toilet.

And dude! you may not like Toyota or even its products but it speak miles about your miserable inferiority complex when you call it trash and the millions of american who prefer it over the anything made in EU as retarded.
It may be a foriegn concept to you . But out here we call it "choice"...
Take a moment and reflect on that.

— izfuney (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:31:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6   

Mercedes DOES NOT need America to sell diesels. Other than that the USA is one of the most important markets.

— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 3:17:43 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

— Carboy (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:01:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

While you may not agree with Huu76, you are entitled to vent against him. Leave the US out of it. And leave the JEEP out of it.
You may not like or even understand it. But the Jeep Wrangler is the best damn offroader there is. Yes and that includes Cayenne. Period ..

As for V8's in the US every common man can have a rumbling v8 monster as opposed to the EU where you have to fork out 100k+ to have one.

Which leaves the Hybrid / Diesel debate. Which is a good one . Me - I prefer hybrids as they embrace the next level of technology about burning less fossil fuels. Diesels too have their proponents.

— izfuney (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:26:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Do your research Rupert,
My Jeep is no dirtier than the V6 Touareg. 20yrs later and VW still can't do any better than Jeeps I6. Similiar mileage too. And Germans think their engineering is good, what a crock.
Bluetec is a diesel engine with soupcans bolted on, and some nasal spray for the exhaust. If not for ULSD, Bluetec wouldn't even work.
We do have small cars, you're just too busy focusing on the pickup trucks. I have a better question, why is Europe incapable of selling a SULEV vehicle, and making it affordable?

Like it matters, but Canada gets 94 octane. Do you even know what octane is? What's funny is that Europeans can't admit they only like diesel because they're tightwads.

Mathew,
Having ULSD do all the work isn't bad, I was pointing out that most of the reduced emissions isn't because of the engine, but the fuel. It means you really don't need Bluetec to get most of the benefits from ULSD.
This basically says Bluetec is dependent on ULSD, not vice versa.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=118927
Straight from MB USA, so nothing bad to say. Basically says clean diesel relies on 3 things, and has to be all 3. Hybrids just need 1, and it doens't care what gas gets put into it.
http://www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alternative-fuels/index.do
Formula,
That's alright, N.America doesn't need Europe or anything in it. Europe is the only place diesels sell, that is until 2014 when gas/diesel taxes are finally the same.
Must be a lot of retards in Europe as well, as Toyota is doing pretty good there too.

Europe better learn to reduce oil consumption real quick. The US isn't going to be your provider forever.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/01/news/international/russia_bp/index.htm?postversion=2007060118
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/news/0705/gallery.oil_bad_boys/index.html

You're all just pissed I've outed Europe as being a continent of cheap hypocrites. "We're better than America even when all our actions prove we're worse". "Diesel is better because it's subsidized". This little tidbit article is just another in a long line of smoking guns.

So anyone have anything relevant to say? You should all know insults don't phase me.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:35:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6   

Mathew,
btw, only 55% of vehicles in N.A. are considered "thirsty". According to GMC anyway.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:40:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

This one's for you Chewy, since you seem to think Bluetec doesn't need ULSD.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/06/first_drive_in_.html

"The new engine is the foundation of Mercedes' Bluetec system, which promises record-low emissions when operated on low-sulfur fuel"

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:50:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Wow, 15 minutes and I rebuked every single one of you. You guys don't really put up much of a challenge for ppl who are always sure they're right.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:51:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

One size does not fit all.

That's why there are different cars for different markets -different values, different opinions, different needs.

— Matthew1 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 10:53:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Today's been a good day for stumbling onto new information. The EPA's 2008 ratings are out, a lot of cars are missing but it's interesting to compare the LS600hL vs the 528i vs the Touareg V10 TDI.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2005findacarf.jsp

Diesel actually took a bigger hit in ratings than the gasoline versions. Wonder if anyone saw that one coming?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/2/2007 11:22:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Chewy,
If only it were that easy feature writer. Like ULSD, PZEV requires the right fuel. Hybrids, again, don't care what gas you put into them.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4024642#quick

"The PZEV's limited availability is not a result of sales volume, marketing or any other political force; it's all about fuel quality. The reformulated fuel available in what's called the California Emission States—California, Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine—make PZEV possible."

You can think about that one. 'night.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 12:40:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I lied.

Not seeing the Fit, Yaris etc on the list was bothering me. PZEV was intended for hybrids, turns out SULEV is basically PZEV but with longer warranties.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11297_7-6729563-6.html
http://www.dupontelastomers.com/autofocus/a1/af1.asp?article=regulations

All the missing cars are already basically PZEV, so there, Toyota/Honda and other cars are already clean enough they don't need PZEV extras.

Now I'm done. See ya.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 1:00:28 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

well, time to stop buying suvs. but i think everyone hear is that smart anyhow.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 2:50:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu76 owned everyone here..

— 528i (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 2:55:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

And you fail to recognize the people who did such a good job combating him. Your Lexus bias shines through...

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 11:42:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

haha... I told you so long time ago, "Clean Diesel in 2009" is just a propaganda used by German 3s to try to stir things up before they could catch up on hybrids.

BTW, R&T got only 24mpg from E3320 Bluetec in their real world driving, 26mpg for GS450h, and 37mpg for Camry Hybrid.

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 2:48:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I completely agree!

— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 1:00:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Man, go to bed and the comments double. Anyway, everyone take a number, I'll get around to you.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:39:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

1. Sailor,
The only band-aid solution is Bluetec. Hybrids solve te pollution problem by not burning oil to begin with. Bluetec requires the fuel to be refined further, which is fine, but all the filters and exhaust treatments really don't do anything because the refining process already removed most of the carbon etc.

To answer you European diesel-hybrid.
First, the Germans won't make it affordable, so it won't make a difference.
Second. North America will have early hydrogen and PEVs by the time the Europeans can get a diesel-hybrid to market.

Let me know if I missed something and I'll refute it too.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:42:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Sporto,
All the European makers only have compacts, subcompacts and subsubcompacts. Their biggest vehicles are the size of small mini-vans. Toyota fields a full lineup, from micro-cars to SUVS. Where do BMW and MB show up on your list? Take out the SUVs and Toyota would be in the top 5 I'm sure.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:44:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Rupert, by UK friend.
2007 Touareg w/ V6 gas.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2007&make=Volkswagen&model=Touareg&hiddenField=Findacar
2004 Jeep GC I6
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2004&make=Jeep&model=Grand%20Cherokee%204WD&hiddenField=Findacar
Just for fun, 2007 Jeep GC 3.7L V6 gas.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2007&make=Jeep&model=Grand%20Cherokee%204WD&hiddenField=Findacar

You'll see that all 3 engines have the same mileage, all 3 engines require roughly the same amount of oil. The VW and I6 engines spit out the same amount of CO2 per year, approx 11 tons.
The Touareg and 2007 Jeep GC have better emissions scores, but the 2004 Jeep is 50 state (it doesn't say if the 2007 Jeep is). You'll notice the Diesel Jeep coughs 25% more CO2 per year and it's mileage isn't all that great for a V6 diesel (approx 2mpg better combined).

Why bring up European standards when we already know N.A.'s are higher (and we're talking about N.A. standards and how some companies are cheaping out by not meeting them).

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:51:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Rupert,
Several times a year when you own several properties.

Foxy,
Wow, plywood? Try 20+ patio stones or a 4x8ft trailer worth of firewood or brush because your property has trees that need to be cut down. I've found out trees are a lot bigger once their on the ground.
I'd like to see how your glorified Wabbit does in 2 1/2ft of snow.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:56:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Sailor,
How come hybrids don't have issues with particulate filters and what grade fuel is going into them?

To anyone I missed.
I can pull up just as many road tests to counter your Euro tests that show diesels are no better, usually crappier when it comes to real world mileage.

Just let me know.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:59:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Damn, 18 minutes, that took longer than I wanted.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 5:59:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Oh, I forgot. I hate Europeans because their attitudes are basically "it's European, that's all you need to know".

When something better comes out, the usually reply is "but it's not European".

Hope that answered everyone's questions.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:00:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Oops, almost snuck on by me Kalimba,
Sure. You must be one of the stupid Americans that the Europeans keep on telling me about.
Everyone knows that gasoline in Europe is taxed usually twice as high as diesel, except in the UK. This will all change in 2014, then we'll see how much Europeans love diesel.

Laws that favour gasoline? How so, by taxing them equally? By letting diesel slip by the emissions regulations for so long? Gas is cheaper even though it costs more to refine.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:05:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

btw, since everyone I'm sure was too afraid to check out the 2008 EPA ratings, I'll give you a cole notes version.

1. LS600hL is SULEV, and it's real world mileage matches that of the new EPA standards. Check C&D and I think it was R&T.
2. SULEV means the LS is already 50 state legal and is technically PZEV.
3. The LShL and 528i use the same amount of oil per year.
4. Both vehicles spit out 8.7 tons of CO2 per year.
5. Fuel costs per year for both vehicles are the same.
The V10 TDI Touareg is the only diesel tested, and believe me, you don't want to know it's emissions ratings.

Yeah, time to start complaing the 5 isn't in the same price class as the LS. Whatever, the fact is a full size vehicle with 2x the power and performance is just as clean as some ugly 5.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:13:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Sailor,
You knew what I meant. ULSD, meaning much less S after further refining. I had carbon on the brain from all these CO2 comments.
btw, ULSD gives you about 2% less mileage than the old stuff.

I may not be able to buy a hydrogen vehicle yet like the ppl on the West Coast, but they can actually use them once the FCX and GM versions come out.
Toronto has 3 hydrogen stations, but they're still a bit too far for me to go to make it worthwhile.

Oh yes, and the European attitude of "just talk and make it sound like your doing something" is oh so much better. Difference is, not doing something and admitting it is not as bad as the old "do as I say, not as I do" routine that Europe has perfected so well.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:32:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Hey Rupert, my cousines in London has 2 properties, both townhouses which I assume is a big deal over there.

Your whole family has mutliple properties. Me, myself and I have multiple properties. I don't own acreage yet, but the standards lots where I live are 99ft by 150ft. It's great to live in a big country that has everything :)

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:34:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

For Kalimba,
I really need to save my good link, but this will have to do. Look at the tax rates between the gas and diesel, and guess who it gets pass along to.
Good news is, it should be a little closer now and will be equal in 2014.
http://www.rec.org/REC/Programs/SofiaInitiatives/EcoInstruments/GreenBudget/GreenBudget6/carbon.html

Kind of funny seeing Japan tax gas higher yet they hate diesel, and the UK is the opposite.

Rupert or whoever said that thing about the Citroen hybrid being affordable.
When I see it, I'll believe it. Hope nobody mistakens it for a Prius though, get my drift?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:42:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Rupert,
The E320CDI is so great it isn't allowed to be sold in N.America. Yeah, damn those emission standards.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 6:43:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

You didn't know that was a joke for winning an Award but not qualified at the beginning? The damn thing is not even 50 state legal!

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 8:46:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Very good article that compares the E320 and GS450h.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061109/BLOG06/61108001/-1/mmstoryfull

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 7:55:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Rupert,
I just know her houses are in London, I don't keep in touch with her that much. You should know the property values for each area, so make your own judgements.

Toronto sits on the banks of Lake Ontario, which is about the size of Belgium. The weather is generally calm, and sunny.

I used the 2008 tests which are supposed to replicate real driving conditions, the one that everyone was announcing would drop hybrid mileage like a rock.
We don't list g/km here, I was using the websites tones of CO2 emitted per year. All the stats are here, please have a look for yourself, it's all there.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2005findacarf.jsp

Sport,
Toyota is in the top 10, doesn't seem so bad. Especially considering it blew away MB and BMW. Honda is a surprise, must be all those diesels screwing up their emissions.

Chewy,
Bluetec is already available. It doesn't matter if/when it's 50 state, MB is discontinuing it for passenger cars because they can't "make" enough money on it (they're not even losing money).

Here's that bs comparison using a base E vs a loaded GSh.
http://www.autospies.com/images/users/Agent001/SP32-20060915-170332.jpg

Not a full comparison, but here. The E only beats the the GSh by 2.4mpg and it has a smaller displacement diesel engine, but in performance the GS literally destroys the E, nearly 1.5 seconds faster.
The GSh is heavier yet it has better braking.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109609/pageNumber=1?synpartner=edmunds&pageurl=www.edmunds.com/new/2007/lexus/gs450h/100700963/roadtestarticle.html&articleId=109609
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=118927/pageNumber=1

Sailor,
No, because subsidizing a dirtier fuel is absurd. It's just VW/BMW/MB claim they can't survive if they can't sell diesels in Europe. Put gasoline and diesel on a level playing field won't affect ppl's decisions when it comes to picking the greener fuel.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/3/2007 10:02:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

huu76 is my hero! =D

— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 1:16:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

oh and, bye bye bluetec! we only knew ya for so little a time...

— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 1:20:40 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I can't believe people are replying to Huu76. I figured out a long time ago that this guy is a moron. Ignore him.

— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 6:59:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Why does EVERY SINGLE diesel and/or hybrid thread become a gigantic "rag on huu76 extravaganza?" I must say, taking on an angry bunch of you is a challenge even for me, but huu76 does it brilliantly without losing his cool, moreso than any German fan I've seen.

I commend him.

It's like watching Rosie O'Donnell in a celebrity deathmatch against all of Fox News and Elizabeth Hasselbeck.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 9:28:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

The proposed 2013+ Diesel NOx Euro 6 emission standard will be still 100% higher than 2007 US bin 5 standard (the maximum for 50 states), let alone the current Euro 4 and the coming Euro 5 in 2009.

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 7:25:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

It hasn't even been 24hrs yet Sailor.

The West Coast is capable of running on hydrogen right now, limited, but it's a reality.

LShL outperforms 528i in all categories, including those it shouldn't.

The Prius is 2x bigger and performs like a sports car compared to the Lupo 3L. What good is the Lupo 3L if VW doesn't sell it? Prius guzzles and obscene 4.3L/100km. Canada rates it at 4.1L/100km. You can go to toyota.ca and co.uk

Diesel and hybrid sales are currently nearly equal.

Rupert,
Since when are opinions lies? I'm not crazy about Europeans and their "holier than thou even when we're not" attitudes. That's the truth.

Thanks for proving my point.
"Anybody who makes an S class sized car will do poorly on this test". Lancruiser and Amazon are pretty darn close to the S-class.

Even the top 5's "big car" are considered wanting by normal standards.

Bill,
You can't even outwit me when I'm wrong. Remember the infrared tank/sniper scope argument?

You can keep on calling me whatever, I don't really care. Fact remains, hybrids always have better emissions and overall performance, Europe just can't see past all the $$$ signs.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 8:06:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Your quote from way, way up there.
"As to the Mercedes, it is a sound buisness decision to take a car off the market if you don't think you earn enough on it! How can that piss you off? And how dare you, the biggest hypocrate of them all, call anything or anybody hypocrates for doing a sound business move?"

Hmmm, MB taking bluetec off the market so they can sell cheaper, dirtier, more profitable diesels at our expense (both N.A. and Europe since I'm not sure if you even have Bluetec) yet it's hybrids that are worse for the env't (especially when Toyota accepted a loss on it to get it going). Okay. MB can't stand 1 yr of lowered profits but Toyota can put up with nearly a decade of selling at a loss to show the world they're leaders in green car technology (not snake oil smoke & mirror diesel pushers).

Wow, your European logic never ceases to make me laugh.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 8:15:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

diesels make the air go black =(

— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/4/2007 9:30:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Sailor,
Prove the 530i outperforms the LShL.

This is ours vs your emission standards. N.A.'s 2001 standards are way higher than your 2005+ standards.
N.A. Page 11. (g/mi) so divide by 2 for km and x10 for mg.
http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/global/downloads/NZConf/03.pdf
Europe (mg/km)
http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/euro-5-emissions-standards-cars/article-133325

PM
U.S. TierIIBin5 (2001) = 5mg/km (or 0.01g/mi)
Euro5(2009) = 5mg/km (diesel and gas)

NOx
US TierIIBin5(2001) = 25mg/km (or 0.05g/mi)
Euro6 (2014) = 80mg/km diesel, 70mg/km gasoline.

HC
US TierIIBin5 (2001) = 7.5mg/km (or 0.015g/mi)
Euro4 (2005) = 0mg/km diesel, 100mg/km

No CO2/CO stats for the Europeans.

This is interesting, Canada and California have similiar standards, which riles automakers. Our cuts are 25% and 30%.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/04/06/MNGSCC3SCA1.DTL
Contrast that with the EU backtracking on their failed 25% reduction target, now it's 18%.
"The European Commission said it was watering down plans to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from cars in the face of intense pressure from car manufacturers."

"The Commission has proposed to weaken an 11-year-old climate target for new cars just five days after the global scientific community warned policymakers to take serious and urgent action on climate change."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/08/weu08.xml

Producing hydrogen from renewable sources like this? (which Canada has done since 2004) You should check out their website. Note their use of naturally occuring methane from landfills etc. reduces the energy required for production by 30-40%. So the FCX could drop to 60g/km.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/

If buying a hydrogen car and being able to fill it up whenever you want isn't a reality, then what is? The West has the fuel, now they just need the affordable car.

How many people live on this Norwegian island? Like the Lupo 3L, it's no good if nobody uses it.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/5/2007 9:03:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

btw, my comparison of emission standards up above doesn't even take into account SULEV. The best you can do is TierII Bin5.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/5/2007 9:05:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Good job huu76!

— spiceace (View Profile)

Posted on 6/6/2007 12:32:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Emissions mean nothing? Why is Europe so adamant about having them then? It only means nothing because once again, I've proven Europe is all talk.

Here's another method of producing hydrogen, and it can occur right in the vehicle.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070522210922.htm

The first half of your post.
The US consumes so much, because they can. Canada produces 2x the energy than what we need. Hence Canada's CO2 levels are inflated, while Europe's true levels are misrepresented. (look at my very last paragraph)

You don't take into account our standards of living are higher too (hint, compare your teeth to yours, seriously). We don't use everything we make. We can afford to consume a lot.
http://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/eedrb/

Compare the US and Germany. Both have the same fraction of CO2 emissoins from oil (47%) and from coal (37%). Canada is 45%/24%.
We also produce much more energy than you, esp considering the pop'n difference.
Total energy production, CAN = 19.9EJ, Germany = 5.58EJ. USA = 74EJ, Russia = 51EJ. Canada and Germany both have 17 nuke plants.
Electricity prod, CAN = 567Twh, Germany 606Twh.
Net dependency on external energy supplies.
CAN = -55%, USA = 27.5%, Germany = 60%, Luxembourg = 99%, France (#1 nuclear) = 55.1%, Russia = -66%.

The US has the largest coal reserves on the planet, so it's still cheap unfortunately. However, their CO2 sins are no worse than Germany's in relative output terms.

It's easy to have low CO2 emissions when half, if not more, of the energy you use is produced somewhere else (i.e. Russia). In fact, Russia has nearly the same CO2 per capita level as Germany 11 vs 10.1 tons yet produce 9x the energy, 51% of which is derived from natural gas), you telling me they have the same standard of living as Germans? Yeah, so your whole argument pretty much went up in CO2 smoke, you believe the liberal hype too easily.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/6/2007 7:51:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

To sum up.
We're richer, so we spend and consumer more.
Most of the energy we use is produced domestically, so the emissions hit us. The energy Europe uses is made elsewhere, so the emissions aren't factored into their totals.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/6/2007 7:54:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

btw Sailor,
Oil-energy equivalent is just that, equivalent. Electricity from a hydro-electric damn equivalent to 100 barrels of oil does NOT create the same CO2.

The fact the US consumes so much yet their reliance on coal is the same as Germany is actually quite good. The US could easily go back past 50% coal if it was all about saving $$$.
I'd take Russia's 51% power production from natural gas over Canada's 25% from coal.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/6/2007 11:01:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu76, for some reason I am unable to use the "reply to this comment" function so I'll try and answer at the end of all these comments:

It is precicely due to the fact that Europe is gobbling up all the 4-cylinder Mercedes diesel production that is delaying its introduction to North America. Nobody has unlimited production capacity. I agreee that the sure way to reduce emissions is to burn less fuel and I am sure that the Mercedes 4-banger diesel uses a lot less fuel than the V6 diesel it currently has in North America. I would love to see a big fuel tank and a miserly engine for long driving range.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 6/7/2007 5:56:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Aloha,Perhaps I missed the post.But the CNN article has been corrected."Correction: An earlier version of this gallery said the E320 would no longer be sold in the U.S. after this year. In fact, it will continue to be sold in the 45 states in which it is now available. We regret the error" Never Mind?

— Aloha (View Profile)

Posted on 6/7/2007 6:39:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Aloha,
That's good news, every little bit helps. Doesn't change the fact Europe's finest can barely meet our standards.

Sailor,
Look at my link, it breaks up everything into nice little categories.
Energy producing countries emit CO2 to extract and refine oil and when we use gas/coal for electricity. We get double hit when we consume it. Our emission levels are more accurate than countries who import energy that's produced somewhere else. Net importers only get hit once. It's common sense.

I get 4 weeks of paid holidays, 2 full weeks, 2 broken up. Not has generous as Europe, but we're also not in over our heads in debt to pay for it either. Canada also has universal healthcare, childcare and our minimum wage is $7 too, except we nerly have parity w/ the greenback. Unlike you though, we live within our means.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html

Country/population (millions)/net external debt
CAN 33.3 684 billion
USA 300 10 trillion
Japan 127 1.5 trillion
Australia 20 585.1 billion
Denmark 5.4 400 billion
Germany 82.4 3.9 trillion
UK 60.7 8.28 trillion
France 63.7 3.4 trillion
Poland 38.5 147 billion
Italy 58 1.95 trillion
Sweden 9 598 billion
EU 490 You do the math
As you can see, even in Europe, nothing is free. You have higher taxes and still your debts are sickening.

Hah, corruption? Did you even read what it means?
Definition from your link: keyword "perception"
"A CPI Score relates to perceptions of the degree of corruption as seen by business people and country analysts..."
Deceiving ppl into thinking this or that is a Euro specialty (i.e. emissions). We have more transparancy over here, that's why it's "perceived" to be worse here. The US also has the bad habit of suing anything that moves.

Satisfaction? Happiness. It's just a survey.
"Taking all things together, would you say you are: very happy, quite happy, not very happy, or not at all happy?".
Face it, N.A. has higher standards and expectations. Someone in Africa can be perfectly happy poor, a rich person can be perfectly miserable. Both can feel that way regardless of what their gov'ts do.

So continue on, since you're on a role.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/7/2007 10:38:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Wow, Canada's even more generous than I thought. Each province has a different min.wage but ours is currently $7.45 going up to $7.75.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/hr/hrbulletin38.htm

Enn,
Diesels are so popular in Europe and barely make a difference over here, so they should be able to send excess capacity if they think they can sell them, especially since Europe's (for sure Germany's) car market is shrinking.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/7/2007 10:44:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sailor,
Here's my energy link again.
http://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/eedrb/
It doesn't get simpler than this. Pick a country, then pick a category, then read.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/7/2007 10:45:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

hint: Go to "Energy related CO2 emissions from oil/coal" and "Total Energy Production" and "Total Energy Consumption".

True, there's no arguing we consume more energy, but we also make a lot more too. We also have something called land that we like to drive around on.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/7/2007 10:51:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

THIS ARTICLE WAS RETRACTED AND CORRECTED. IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE SOLD IN THE STATES. Good thing. I own one and think it's awesome!

— 993Turbo (View Profile)

Posted on 6/8/2007 6:53:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

why would anyone buy a Mercedes diesel anyway???? if you drive a Mercedes what do you care about MPG? diesel fuel is very nasty stinky stuff - I'd hate to get that shit on my hands or clothes (I have before).
Oh and did I mention the exhaust is a known carcinogen?

— bagwell (View Profile)

Posted on 6/8/2007 8:58:31 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

dude chill....think xanax

— bagwell (View Profile)

Posted on 6/8/2007 10:05:10 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

From an updated page on the Money site:

Correction: An earlier version of this gallery said the E320 would no longer be sold in the U.S. after this year. In fact, it will continue to be sold in the 45 states in which it is now available. We regret the error.

— jjfrey (View Profile)

Posted on 6/8/2007 3:21:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sailor,
Public debt = what the gov't owes (for Canada, mostly bonds and t-bills).
Net External debt = what everyone (citizens, gov't and companies) owe to foreigners, only payable by reserves which will affect your currency. We borrow from ourselves, you borrow from outside.

Peaceful I would assume refers to the gov't, not the people. It's easy for other gov'ts to claim peace when they know the US will do the fighting for them to ensure their security.

Your GDP may be a bit higher, but that's probably due to all the gov't make work projects (also implies you're more reliant on FDI). Doesn't seem to mean much if you ask me and look here.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-quality-of-life-map.html
Are we looking at the same HDI index? In the top 30, Canada ranks 6th, the US 8th. Only the Nordic super welfare countries beat us. Canada's been #1 10 of the last 25years. From the CIAfactbook, you can see how they finance it.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/8/2007 11:18:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

btw, Canada's net ext debt per capita is $21,000, Denmarks is $80,000. US is $33,000. Germany $48,700.

So apparently Canada and the US have some of the highest standards of living yet we do it within our means.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/8/2007 11:24:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Peace index? Whatever. Did you even look at the numbers for each country? 1 being most peaceful, Denmark's willingness to fight is 3, the US = 2.
Your "non-UN depoyments" number is higher than Canada's, LOL, you barbarians! Canada is fighting a war right now and we're ahead of most of Europe. Japan has the world's 4th largest military budget and they're only 2 positions behind you. So tell me again what this index is supposed to say?

The stupid index is weighted against countries willing to spend money on the military and security. Russia is worse than the US and they're not fighting 2 wars right now and the US spends about 20x as much on the military.

Did you realize that all the "peaceful" countries listed that are from Europe or Asia generally have American forces there to protect them?

Okay, what sort of influence then? Tell me professor. I can only think of negative influences.

Back to the topic. Eventhough the E is still alive, why does MB refuse to offer Bluetec on their SUVS, instead opting for the dirtier CDI? IF they cared about the env't, should they not offer the cleanest diesels they have on all their vehicles?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/9/2007 9:20:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

What does "standard of living" have to do with "peace" in a country?

Countries willing to protect themselves can't be passive. Ones leaving their independence to the USA can sing about peace all day.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/9/2007 9:22:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sailor,
Anyone wanting Denmark has to get through Rammstein, which probably has more firepower than Denmark.
Do your forces do any fighting, or are they simply observers? The French and Germans are in Afghanistan, but their gov't has restricted them to hiding in the back where it's safe. It's true, only the US and Canada (probably the UK too) are doing the hard work.

It's pretty easy to compare the US to yourselves. Why did you ignore my Russian comparison?
There's no doubt access to weapons contributes to the US violence rate. However, China, if you believe the media, is nothing but peace (try owning a weapon there) yet they're way down there as well.

Europe has its fair share of gun crime, it's just more sensational to report and point fingers at the U.S.
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2499298.ec
e

The 2nd ammendment has lots to do with the US murder rate, they're an anomaly.
Compare this list, the UK which has a gun ban is nearly as violent as Canada, which, for the most part, it's quite easy to own a gun here. Then you have France ahead of us both.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Look at where Russia is compared to the US.

If you go back to my original posting, it says the fact that bothers me most is not that they've stopped selling Bluetec, but the reason being it wasn't as profitable as using CDI. They were never losing money. That's pretty sleazy. Although it's been retracted, it still holds true with their SUVs since they could offer Bluetec but they don't.

Other companies that offer hybrid don't have "levels" of hybrid, they offer their best system on all their hybrid models. Every hybrid is SULEV or better depending on the engine size and if it's "mild" or HSD.

I'm curious to know if VW will be offering Bluemotion on the Touareg, or if they'll be sticking to TDI.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/10/2007 11:16:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

You're right, I'll jump at any opportunity to point out the ugly truth, that Europeans talk the talk, but generally don't do any walking. I'll keep on doing too as long as Europeans keep on thinking they're the best when it's so obvious you're not.

You must not be able to remember past 2 months. I've agreed with Chewy that the US should tax trucks and SUVs, unfortunately GM and Ford are just like the Europeans on emissions when it comes to trucks. Canada has done that with SUVs (a $4000 tax on Jeeps is the one that stands out, 10x the gas guzzler tax that I paid).

But Toyota has said they've sold hybrids at a loss, and are working to lower the price of the parts. Higher volume helps to achieve that.

Just like Honda dropping a diesel into their Hybrid Accord, although I don't like it, makes sense since Honda's hybrid system isn't as efficient because the V6 is always running. Should've just offered a hybrid 4 banger Accord.

Again, the story may be innaccurate, but the principle is still the same. SUVs don't have Bluetec because MB makes more money by polluting with the CDI. As long as most are sold in Europe, who cares, it's your health.

We weren't talking about France, but they are European, and they along with Finland and some other Europeans are more violent than us. I look at the facts, I also analyze them too. You should try it sometime.

Bluemotion is cleaner, but may not be required for the Touareg, we will see what VW does.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/11/2007 10:55:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

My apologies to your gov't, they have bigger balls than the French and Germans.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/11/2007 11:06:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1