Forget the EPA- These are the Real World Fuel-Economy Champions!

I keep telling everyone here that hybrids "cheat" the EPA test and get rated way above their actual "real world" fuel economy. This only makes my argument stronger. For example: the Jetta TDI was THE BEST in all of the test, it got 40.1 mpg average while it is rated 36/41. On the other hand the Camry Hybrid rated @ 40/38 (slightly better combined EPA than the Jetta TDI) ONLY GOT A REAL WORLD AVERAGE OF 31.2. I rest my case. Come and get it hybrid fans.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 12:48:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Nevermind, I should payed more attention, the Prius got the best fuel economy 45.2. That is great, however, it is WAY BELOW THE EPA RATING of 60 city and 51 highway. Is my argument getting stronger by the minute?

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 1:08:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I am not surprised

— G35Lover (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 1:26:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Chewy- The hybrid guys just want to believe in great fairy tales and never, neverland stories. Just let them drink the hot cocoa and sleep with pixie dust.

We choose to live in the real world.

— PlanoA4 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 1:36:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

First of all, who the hell cares about the Jetta. And for people who are looking to buy Hybrid cars for fuel efficiency, look at cars like the Honda Insight, Toyota Prius. Lexus and other models incorporates Hybrid drives for performance, whoever is looking in this segment doesn't really care much for fuel enonomy, anyway. Why did Lexus put Hybrid technology into the LS600H? It's really simple, because it gets the fuel economy of a V8 with a power of a 6.0 V12. So why not, right? And quite honestly, if you buy a Hybrid and do most of your driving on the highways, you won't get "Hybrid" mileage. These cars are meant for city driving where the average speed limit is 25-35MPH. This will be my first and last post so don't expect a response .....because I know this will end up being a flame war.

— SSP350 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 2:15:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

bla bla bla hybrid, lexus, so typical...

— vcowman (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 2:19:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I truly hope the EPA gets it's $hit together. Japanese auto makers have been getting away with murder on their EPA claims and selling numerous cars on those estimates. Not as blatant are most other makers as well.

— dblo7 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 2:37:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Hybrid fans are weak. They can't stand up to real data. It isn't that I hate hybrids, but they are obviously running on inflated EPA estimates as proven in this article. I mean look at the hard cold facts. The Jetta TDI rated @ 36/41 got 40.1 mpg in mixed driving, the Civic Hybrid rated @ 49/51 (insanely overinflated numbers) only averaged 38.0 mpg in mixed driving. Take a look at that hybrid fans. How do you explain (or counter) the truth.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 4:25:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Note these tests are realistic because they have multiple sample of each car.

Hybrids
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

vs.

Diesels
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/all-nonhybrids.html


Honda Insight managed almost 65 mpg.

Honda Metropolitan managed 101 mpg.

— sedaine (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 5:24:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

sedaine

Trusting "user" data isn't a very good idea.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 5:51:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Notice that the Camry hybrid is larger than the Jetta and has almost 100 more hp than the TDI.

What most people aren't understanding is that hybrids are not all about fuel efficiency. They are much cleaner than diesels too as they release less CO2 emmissions. Wasn't that the reason of why the Jetta TDI isn't sold here anymore?

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 6:23:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

How do you explain the Civic Hybrid? BTW, the diesel in the Jetta is very old, in Germany you can get 170 hp and 253 lb-ft. of torque. Diesels emit very little CO2 emmissions, they emit less C02 than gasoline engines. (them emit more with equal consumption, but as they have much less consumption they therefore emit less CO2) Particulate filters will remove all of particulates and Nox will be dealt with as well.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 6:37:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I believe Toyota makes better hybrids than Honda, so I can't explain why the Civic hybrid gas mileage figures are what they are. However as you yourself said the article points out that they averaged 45.2 mpg in the Prius.

The 06 Jetta TDI has a 1.9 liter engine that produces 100 hp. The Camry hybrid is less fuel efficient because it is larger and much more powerful.

Diesels release much more CO2 emmissions than a normal petrol car, much less a hybrid vehicle. VW could not sell any of its diesel vehicles in the US because it could not meet new emmission standards for 2007. To my knowledge no gas powered car has been discontinued for 2007 because of the new regulations.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 7:06:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

** I meant diesels release much more CO2 emmissions than a hybrid vehicle. ***

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 7:07:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

The Jetta got 40.1 while rated @ 36/41 (overdelivering=good) The Prius only 45.2 (overpromising [60/51 EPA]=dissapointing) Also, the MB E320 CDI (the Blutec could be even better) and the Lexus GS450h both emmit the EXACT same amount of CO2.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 7:41:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

The Civic only has 110 hp (combined) and only 123 lb-ft of torque, compared with 170 for the Jetta. Also, in Germany you can get a Passat TDI (same size as the Camry) with 170 hp and 253 lb-ft of torque, that compares very well with the Camry Hybrid with 192 hp and only 199 lb-ft of torque. I bet the Passat TDI would get better fuel economy than the Camry. Also take a look at the Honda Accord (4 cylinder) it is rated @ 26/34 but got almost identical fuel economy (while the EPA rating is much much higher for the Camry), it also got 3.1 mpg better than its Hybrid version while there is only .5 mpg difference in the EPA test. What does this mean? This means that the EPA currently overinflates the Hybrid's fuel economy, this also means that the EPA's amount of climate change gasses for hybrids is much lower than it is in the real world.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:04:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Look, it's only common sense that a smaller less powerful car will get better real world mpg than a larger more powerful car.

"Also, the MB E320 CDI (the Blutec could be even better) and the Lexus GS450h both emmit the EXACT same amount of CO2."

Highly doubtful, Mercedes has no plans in the US for a CDI E Class in 2007. The CDI also failed to meet new regulations for 2007.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:07:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

ORLY, check this out.

http://www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alternative-fuels/index.do

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:10:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

The article was referring to the US spec Jetta with 100 hp. The Civic, Prius, and Camry are all more powerful than the Jetta TDI. If they tested the Euro TDI it would have rated lower than 40 mpg. The difference would be that much smaller with the Camry Hybrid.

Since this test did not include the Passat TDI we can't assume anything. However, seeing that the 100 hp Jetta rates at 40 mpg, the TDI Passat with the same larger Euro Jetta TDI engine in a heavier car would most likely score in the low to mid 30's range in mpg.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:17:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Not really, look up the A6 TDI article. That large car with the much more powerful 3 liter V6 engine with 230 hp and 370 lb-ft averaged about 35 mpg.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:22:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Which A6 article? Apparently not this one.

BTW I did some research, the Audi A6 3.0 TDI CO2 rating is 229g/km while the GS450h is 186g/km. Hybrids are cleaner than diesels.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:30:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

The E320 CDI is 194g/km

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:37:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Funny how the best car (Prius) gets disqualified because it's too big to be a compact and they think the price is too high. In Canada, the Civic Hybrid and Prius are the same price.

This article is too bias, and I'd like to know what the city/highway balance is. In reality, it's like 75% city, 25% highway. They probably did 50/50 or slanted it towards highway as usual.

Also, load up a Jetta TDI and it hits about $32K.

Aside: The E320 diesel has 400lbs torque right? Well, that could probably pull 10,000lbs. Can the chassis even handle towing something that big, or would it get ripped in half?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 9:06:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

huu76

They drive the cars normally. The results come from 150,000 miles of driving. The E320 isn't designed to pull 10,000 pounds. Why would you tow 10,000 with your 50,000 car?

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 9:42:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Wait a second. 150,000 miles of driving of all the cars tested combined? Or 150,000 miles per car? Considering that it takes an average person 10 years to put 150,000 miles on a car I think they meant of all cars combined.

If the results are of the combined mileage of all the cars, then they only drove an average of 3,000 miles per car (50 cars total tested including the Prius divided by 150,000 miles in case you were wondering).

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 12:37:36 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Chewy,
Then why the 400lbs of torque then? Seems to me the bluetec should be used in deliver trucks more so than passenger cars. All that wasted energy/oil (torque) could be used to make gas instead.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 1:04:52 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

00JT

That is all of the driving that the editors of that web site did in that year combined. That is distributed over more than 50 cars. Still, that would be plenty of distance to get a good grip of fuel economy.

huu76

Have you heard of the following equation: HP = rpm X Torque/5,252. This means that in all cars @ 5,252 rpm the torque and hp are equal. Because diesel cars usually only spin to about 4,000 they will always make more torque than horsepower. That is not wasted energy, the diesel engine is much more efficient than any gasoline engine.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 2:26:04 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

"Diesels release much more CO2 emmissions than a normal petrol car, much less a hybrid vehicle. VW could not sell any of its diesel vehicles in the US because it could not meet new emmission standards for 2007."

00JT
Cars consume energy (chemical energy), they do not consume matter. The same amount of carbon that goes in, also has to come out. Between a diesel and a hybrid, the amount of carbon that goes in is roughly the same, assuming equal mileage (the carbon is bound in the hydrocarbons that make the diesel or gasoline). The amount of carbon cannot change unless nuclear fusion or fission occurs in the process (I guess we can agree that neither happens in any vehicle). The carbon output resulting from combustion is mostly CO2 and a to a much smaller extent other hydrocarbons, the latter being far less desirable then CO2. It is physically impossible for a diesel to put out more CO2 then an equal mpg hybrid, unless the hybrid spews out a lot of either unburned hydrocarbons or plain ash (neither are the case).
Hence there is no way a Civic Hybrid puts out less CO2 than a Jetta TDI for example.
Emission standards have very little to do with CO2, anyway as CO2 is a non-toxic and rather neutral gas.

— Sachsi2 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 3:43:00 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Sachse,
So a Prius/RX400h starting in traffic sends out just as much C02 as a diesel? I don't think so. They start on electric power only. Gas kicks in when they're on the highway or need more boost to merge into traffic. Gallon for gallon, diesels contain and expel more carbon.

Chewy,
But not more efficient than a gas/hybrid.

Hence diesels should stick w/ cube fans and trucks. All that torque is best put to use pulling things, no carrying some guy around town to p/u milk.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 2:06:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

why not diesel hybrid? weight seems to be an issue, but why not?
mega mpg with super performance.
hybrids are, in general, cleaner than most cras, simply because the engine seems to be turned off a lot (hence high town mpg).
diesels emit less CO2 than petrols (golbal warming). diesels emit more particles (soot) and i believe more NO2 (golbal warming). how ever, we are forgetting tuners who stick NO2 in their cars, which increase performance and kills the planet more.
a diesel hybrid seems to be the next step. plug in diesel after, then we'll have hydrogen fuelled piston engines, then fuel cells.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 6:14:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

also huu, when i was on my bike next to a new-fangled rx400h, it accelerated pretty normally and the gas engine kicked in immediatley.
the main saving is the fact that the engine is off when halted.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 6:54:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

That person must have been gunning it, because I've stood beside one at an intersection and all you hear is the whirrr of the electric motor when it starts to move out.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 7:38:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Chewy,

3,000 miles on average hardly resembles typical driving for the lifespan of the car

Sachse,

How's about engine size instead of mpg? I don't know exactly how the EPA conducts those tests, you'd have to ask them. However I highly doubt that all those figures they claim are lies. The EPA knows what they are doing.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 3:03:13 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

OOJT

As I said before, they drove enough to get a good read on the fuel economy of the vehicle. It is true, some engines gain more power/increase their fuel economy after several thousand miles, but the gain isn't very big. Also, the current EPA test is so flawed with hybrids, as proven by this article.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 4:11:27 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

chewy: "Nevermind, I should payed more attention, the Prius got the best fuel economy 45.2. That is great, however, it is WAY BELOW THE EPA RATING of 60 city and 51 highway. Is my argument getting stronger by the minute?"

the EPA figures are obtained by running cars thru a PROGRAMMED course. all vehicles go thru the same program, which simulates a "normal" commute.

it's been said some makers optimize their cars to maximize their epa results. so what? ANY mgfr can do this, not just the japanese. for instance, the corvette 6-sp manual LOCKS OUT gears 2 and 3 under light to moderate throttle.

net result: FEW people ever get the epa mileages in real world driving. so why all the fuss?

on the flip side, some people actually EXCEED the epa ratings. i do myself. there is nothing 'sacred' about epa ratings. nor is it 'cheating' by anyone if the average driver fails to get those ratings.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 4:23:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

- I think the claimed EPA value is always higher, becuase of the way people drive. They calculated their EPA based on the "ideal" driving.. which none of us can acheive..

- As for disel and gasoline comparison, disel is more efficient. It's a general knowledge that disel enginee is more efficient because of the lack of ignition system(fuel gets ignited by compression, pus it's a 2-stroke engine) That's how disel engine canhave good gas mileage. However, it is not ideal for cars becuase of its power output being low. That's why gasoline engine took over.

- As for emission, disel engine was dirty and unrefine becuase engineer stopped developing it and focused on gasoline. But using today's bio-disel, disel engine is way cleaner than gasoline engine.

- However, having to say so much good things about disel engine, I still prefer gasoline engine because of the hp it offers. It's more fun to drive a car with more power output =D

- As for hybrid, I'm pretty sure that hybrid is more efficient. Simply because of the "copper convertor"(I'm not sure about its name, but it's basically a Buck Convertor with dbi-directional power flow) It recycles the energy and therefore makes it more efficient. Now you might think if the efficient of disel engine be better than those from hybrid. Well, if the hybrid is build for power, with a 3.0L engine like the acord hybrid, obviously disel is more efficient. But, if hte hybrid is build for fuel economy like the civic or puris, then the hybrid is clearly more efficient.

- All those figures only tell you the gas mileage of the car, but it's not a controlled experiment and the comparisons are not even fair. Considering that they have different weight, transmission, different setup, different fuel, there's no way to conclude whether disel or gasoline or hybrid is better.

— icen (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 5:35:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Icen,

However, having to say so much good things about disel engine, I still prefer gasoline engine because of the hp it offers. It's more fun to drive a car with more power output.
----------------------------------------

Horsepower = top speeds

Torque = acceleration

Give me a diesel please. ;)

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 7:34:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

ApexAlex

I know, but hybrids fall below the EPA ratings MUCH MUCH MUCH more than normal cars. If you look at the article, you will see it. The Civic Hybrid that is rated much higher than the Jetta TDI in the EPA rating actually got a lower real world driving. That is the point. And about emmissions, the new MB Blutec WILL BE CLEANER THAN THE FIRST GENERATION TOYOTA PRIUS AND HONDA INSIGHT. Thinik about that for a minute. Most gasoline cars more than 3 years old will be DIRTIER AND PRODUCE MORE EMMISIONS than the new MB Blutec.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 2:59:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

BMW,

Horsepower = top speeds
Torque = acceleration
-----------------------------------
- you can say that, but i think that is becuase of the logorithmic curve of acceleration V.S. speed plot.
Think about hp as the amount of energy the engine can output per second. The acceleration in a certain period of time depend on how much kinetic energy can be added to the car in that time frame. So I believe that hp determines acceleration.
- The point that why "high low-rpm-torque" car accelerate faster than "high high-rpm-hp" car is because usually "high high-rpm-hp" car have little low-end-hp, where "high low-rpm-torque" car has a lot of "low-rpm-hp".

hhaah anyway, this is getting off topic, but it's fun talking about these stuffs.
But yup, hp = top speed
but hp = acceleration too..
The hp that determine the top speed will be the hp of the rpm the engine runs at while traveling at its top speed.
The hp that determine the acceleration would be the low rpm spectrum, where the hp the car uses to accelerate.
That hp rating of a car is just the hp outputof 1 rpm.. which to me, doens't tell me much about the power curves.

Does it make sense to you??

— icen (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 3:06:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

if cars didn't have gears, hp = top speed and torque = acceleration.

but cars do have gears, so both have an effect.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 6:05:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Chewy,

Hybirds perform better on city streets, not highways. That being said, this article is not clear on exactly how many miles were driven on both highway and city. However 3,000 miles is still not an accurate depiction of what the actual mpg is of the car throughout its lifetime.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 7:19:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I think it is accurate enough, the same way that only about 1,000 people are needed for a survey such as who will be the next president, it is all about sample size and this article had a good sample size. They said that the vehicles shown had a real life balance of city/highway driving. If anything, hybrid milage could go down as the batteries go weaker over time. Also to show how fuel efficient diesels are, the new Audi Q7 V12 TDI is said to average 20 mpg. This would be about 18/22 in EPA ratings in the current format. That would make it not only the most powerful large SUV but also the most fuel efficient.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 10:01:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Also only 5 would ever be sold in a year.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 10:07:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sure huu76. Keep wishing. Do the facts scare you once again? Are you afraid that the 500 hp and 720 lb-ft of torque Q7 will still get 20 mpg? The GS450h isn't sold in any big numbers either. IIRC less than Bentlyes.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 11:38:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Guys,

I'm just not feeling the love.

— Matthew1 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/11/2006 5:45:12 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

The numbers are impressive, if you ignore why the Europeans supposedly love diesels so much. All these new diesels are far from affordable, and will never sell in volume enough to make a difference in the environment. Then again, I'm sure the GS outperforms this, even if they slapped on another 24 cylinders.

Looks like Europe was being hypocritical as usual claiming hybrids are just a marketing gimmick while they were preparing their own gimmick. Why don't people just buy transports then?

"Screw the planet, there's money to be had"

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/12/2006 6:55:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1