Geneva 2008: Volkswagen Golf Hybrid comes with 83.1 MPG

better in every dimension than the prius...

— chris760 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/20/2008 11:51:17 PM | | Votes: 10   

ok lexus, i'll generously assume your sources are correct. (doubtful)

so take 20% off the golf's mileage of 83mpg to account for additional oil that goes into diesel production and you get...66MPG. STILL better than the prius. and it'll be a ton of fun to drive while the prius has the driving dynamics of a box.

golf WINS for anyone who likes to drive.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 6:40:41 PM | | Votes: 0   

"substantially better emissions and MPG than a prius. and more importantly, it will actually be FUN TO DRIVE."
marginally better emissions...but it's still a concept.
estimated better mpg...but it's still a concept.
fun to drive...but it's still a Golf.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 6:56:58 PM | | Votes: -1   

"fun to drive...but it's still a Golf"

yes, and it's fun to drive. a prius (still a toyota) drive like a box.

car and driver said it best: "a snooze to drive" and
"Corollas are fireballs next to this machine. With skinny tires, numb steering, and a soft suspension, the Prius is about economy."

http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_guide/toyota/prius/2008_toyota_prius

so like i said, if you like to drive the golf is the obvious choice.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:06:23 PM | | Votes: 0   

If, I had a choice between this thing which is still only a concept and Toyota Prius...I'ld honestly take Prius. Come on folks..be real..this is only a concept for now. If they do so decide to build it, fine. But my question is this: how gullable are some of you people? Go get some fresh air for god's sakes!!!!!

— Homer008 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 8:04:12 PM | | Votes: 0   

Did you expect emissions/mpg to get worse as time went on?

I don't get it.

P.S.: The '86 Accord just got PWNED by the '08 Accord, it's unbelievable!

— kablaam (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 4:21:11 PM | | Votes: 4   

PWNED (how old are you?) by a concept? I think not.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 6:57:52 PM | | Votes: -1   

Ok, that makes more sense. I was trying to figure out how those mileage claims were possible.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/20/2008 11:47:15 PM | | Votes: 5   

it's just a concept.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 6:54:13 PM | | Votes: -3   

Concept close to reality

— atomicbri (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2008 8:53:22 AM | | Votes: 1   

I'm quite sure it will have BlueMotion technology.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 2/20/2008 11:44:22 PM | | Votes: 9   

Particulate filters reduce particles to below petrol engine levels.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 12:48:52 PM | | Votes: 2   

Everyone is a scientist now huh.
Diesel is not as clean as everyone asumes and it is not the way to go in the future.

— zorbeeze (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 1:45:19 PM | | Votes: 4   

Paticulate matter may not matter much in the atmosphere, but it sure matters in the air above the cities. (matter matters, sometimes i crack myself up)

That being said, I am sure this is one of those cleaner diesels, but we don't know, since it's just a CONCEPT.

If and when this car comes out, all the technology it will need-cleaner diesel (bluemotion or whatever), hybrid, turbos-will make it prohibitively expensive. If a car can get the mpg and emissions this one claims, it will do so at a hefty premium. Not to mention cost of diesel fuel, small packaging, 0-60 times. The way y'all are talking, this thing sounds like a $20,000 Tesla. Sign me up.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:03:25 PM | | Votes: 1   

The Prius being more expensive in Denmark has more to do with supply/demand and exchange rate issues than the cost of the vehicle. So for all our problems in the US, I'll just be happy that at least a Prius comes in at a reasonable price here. I cant argue with that variable, I'm not going to even try. Once Toyota decides they want to sell Priuses en masse in Europe, the price will come down, and that argument will be moot.

The rest of your argument is just conjecture. Let's see...
"The 1.9TDI which most probably being used is actually cheaper (yes CHEAPER) than the comparable 1.6 gasoline version."
Probably, hmmm hard to tell considering this car doesnt exist, right? But a cleaner diesel engine will definitely be more expensive. The technology is not cheap.

"If they can keep the production costs of the hybrid drive below 2000€"
Yet for some reason, everyone thinks that Toyota hybrid engines are so expensive. Let's see Volkswagen come up with a reasonably priced hybrid engine on their first try.

"WHEN THEY DO EIGHTY MILES TO THE GALLON! I'd love to see a Prius do that!"
By the time (if ever) this VW concept comes out, you just may, as Toyota is about 18 months from delivering the next gen Prius.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:45:24 PM | | Votes: 1   

your data is because diesel has more energy than gasoline, therefore it has more oil per gallon and more carbon per gallon, that's why the Europeans give you the real C02 figures, and 89 grams is LESS than 105, that's becaus the diesel engine is more fuel efficient. Get it?

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 9:27:40 PM | | Votes: 1   

Another nice thing that we can count on with EL34 (and thus laugh at) is his lack of writing skills ;-\

— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 2/20/2008 11:34:41 PM | | Votes: 3   

35...yeah keep deluding yourself

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:03:59 PM | | Votes: -1   

ok then, you go drive a prius around california, with the A/C turned on or a window down while listening to the radio. THEN tell me you got 35mpg+

— EvoAudi (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2008 11:29:32 PM | | Votes: 1   

Diesel Hybrids are very expensive to manufacture. Diesel technology adds about $4000 to the production cost of a vehicle and the Hybrid technology is right below that. That's a lot of money for a power train. I agree, this is the best all around, no comprimise solution, it's just expensive to do.

— Neverfollow (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 9:33:28 AM | | Votes: 2   

Mercedes sell the 320cdi and 350 models for about the same price in Europe - and even Kia sells the Ce'd or whatever it's called diesel for the same price as the petrol.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2008 12:45:01 PM | | Votes: 1   

Please people. The manufacturing cost of producing a diesel VS gas engine isn't completely passed on to the buying public so you don't usually see a $4000US difference in what the MSRP of the two. Usually it's around $1500-$2000 premium at retail. These vehicles are built for entirely different reasons right now. They help the manufacturers reach certain CAFE standards in the US and other countries that have them throughout the world thus lowering fines and taxes which help offset the cost.

The general buying public is not usually privy to manufacturing costs and expenses so I was simply trying to pass along info that is usually hard to find or come by. If you don't want to believe me, no worries.

— Neverfollow (View Profile)

Posted on 2/29/2008 11:32:38 AM | | Votes: 1   

"The Toyota Prius can easily get 90 mpg if driven properly. Fact.

Please show your proof.

— IVANURI97 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 9:01:50 AM | | Votes: 2   

You live in a little fantasy world, don't you?

Toyota won't be the "leader" forever. Fact.

There are seven other companies threatening to take the top spot. Fact. BMW, Metcedes-Benz, VW Group, Honda, Nissan, GM and Ford.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 10:15:32 AM | | Votes: 3   

"Thanks to Toyota"

WRONG. it's government policy NOT toyota that is driving diesels and hybrid development.

thank you to the European Union for implementing very stringent new emissions and MPG requirement for all EU automakers. these will take effect in the next two years.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 10:57:53 AM | | Votes: 2   

furthermore designer, toyota is already shooting itself in the foot with BAD HYBRID PRODUCT STRATEGY.

the three much touted lexus hybrids gets below average mileage and don't even qualify for PZEV emissions (even a standard 3-series can do that).

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 10:59:56 AM | | Votes: 1   

There is no way a Prius can get 90+mpg. I am happy to say I am wrong if you can show me where you get this fact from.

— IVANURI97 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 11:02:42 AM | | Votes: 5   

enthusiast, i have let you get away with your PZEV rant way too many times. You apparently know nothing about PZEVs. From a pollution standpoint, there is very little difference between a PZEV and an SULEV. "In order to qualify as a PZEV, a vehicle must meet the SULEV standard and, in addition, have zero evaporative emissions from its fuel system plus an extended (15-year/150,000-mile) warranty on its emission-control components" Every mfr needs to market a certain number of PZEVS in order to do business in California and CA emissions states. BMW chose to put the PZEV on its best selling car, the base 3 (328? 330? I cant keep track). Lexus doesnt have PZEVS because of the hundreds of thousands sold by Toyota- 4 cylinders Camrys and Priuses. The PZEV and of course SULEV contribution by Toyota is exponentially greater than that by BMW, so stop trotting it out as a comparison to Lexus every time. Counting PZEVs (tho important) is only one part of the emissions equation. The fact that all the Lexus hybrids are SULEV and they have plenty other models at ULEV speaks volumes about their environmental commitment.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 4:03:58 PM | | Votes: -1   

toyota:

PZEV > SULEV > ULEV

therefore the BMW 3-series (PZEV like the prius) offers a better emissions rating than the lexus "hybrids" (SULEV).

it's really not a debate.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:02:15 PM | | Votes: 1   

It's a straw man argument. You cannot compare the PZEVs of the 328 to the SULEVs of Lexus if you don't look at the bigger picture.

This is the same as saying that this Golf concept beats the Prius. Even if it came in at a higher mpg and lower CO2, would it be as fast, as large, as inexpensive, and emit as few smog forming pollutants? There are too many variables.

You love to break arguments down to one point and argue it like it is the only issue. I dont begrudge the 3 its PZEV rating, tho it only gets it in California. PZEVs require extra features that mfrs dont like to add to their cars because of the prohibitive cost. Thus most mfrs who offer it only do so in CA emissions states. It is generally not perceived by the consumer to be worth the cost, which is why unless mandated you generally cant buy PZEVs anywhere else. BMW only makes its CA 3 series PZEV worthy because it has to, in order to meet CA's CARB requirements.

This info is way too important to leave off the table when throwing out comments about BMW being green because they sell PZEVs. But your arguments always get lost in the details.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:36:49 PM | | Votes: 0   

PZEV gets rid of all evaporative emissions. Evaporative emissions are just as bad as regular tailpipe emissions. SULEV cars are already super clean from the tailpipe, but can still have evaporative emissions, PZEV results in almost no emissions.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 9:32:38 PM | | Votes: 3   

My point is not to dismiss the PZEV technology (though it really has little technology behind it.) It would be great if all cars had it. But it needs to be put in perspective. When someone says how green BMW is because they offer one model (and only with one engine choice) as a PZEV, they are completely missing the boat. Audi is not the evil polluting monster becasue they offer no PZEVs. They offer no PZEVs because Volkswagen offers them. You need to look at the bigger picture. Sadly, arguments against hybrids, especially when compared to concept cars always get reduced to one or two points, when the beauty of the Toy/Lex hybrids is their ability to encompass a number of qualities-mpg/emissions/style/luxury/perfromance/features, with few compromises.
If you really want to see how green BMW or any mfr is, look up
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do;jsessionid=82309cb802e9797d4523
These are real cars, not concepts, and it show differences for CA cars and the cars the rest of the world gets. (BTW, PZEVs sure make CA look good)

No one green technology is going to power the vehicle needs of everyone. There is room for many. I support any green technology, even diesel hybrids. What I do not support is fanboys saying how great something new is when it has yet to be tested in the real world, while simultaneously dismissing vehicles that have proven themselves to be excellent, especially when the only real rationale for their argument is that one is Euro vs the other Japanese.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2008 11:52:31 AM | | Votes: 0   

Well, seeing as the least powerfull diesel in the Golf is already allot more powerfull then the engine in the Prius i wouldn't worry about that.

— Heyhuub (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 10:11:44 AM | | Votes: 2   

guaranteed better performance than a prius. won't have the prius' huge body roll, numb steering and lack of agility.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 11:01:29 AM | | Votes: 2   

guaranteed, huh? U driven one?

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:47:15 PM | | Votes: -3   

you drive a prius right? a corolla looks like an M3 next to it.

have you driven a golf? they're quite a lot of fun!

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2008 2:47:24 AM | | Votes: 3   

toyota:

the german manufacturers typically who a car very close to the time it's fully produced. ex. X6 a few months ago, coming into production momentarily. and the golf is near-production.

of course, it's a double standard when it comes to your precious toylex. the LF-A for example has been a concept for 4 YEARS and it's not even approved for production. lol.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:13:52 PM | | Votes: 1   

toyota:

the german manufacturers typically who a car very close to the time it's fully produced. ex. X6 a few months ago, coming into production momentarily. and the golf is near-production.

of course, it's a double standard when it comes to your precious toylex. the LF-A for example has been a concept for 4 YEARS and it's not even approved for production. lol.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/21/2008 7:13:55 PM | | Votes: 1   

It's not THAT small!

And a beach buggy...I'll give it a straight-through exhaust, remove the roof and paint it bright green too...actually it sounds quite fun!

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2008 12:47:17 PM | | Votes: 1   

Wow - even with my absolutely zero understanding of Danish, I can see that is an amazing and groundbreaking vehicle, which bears no resemblance to the failure that was the Sinclair C5. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5)
It looks very cool. :S
I'll buy it off you! Wait, I might regret that...

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2008 7:24:17 PM | | Votes: 1   

agreed.

SOOO many prius drivers are pompous poseurs who want to drive a political statement. meanwhile, they live in huge houses, leave lights on, etc. etc. while they preach to the rest of us how horrible we are. far too many hypocrites driving those cars.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2008 2:51:16 AM | | Votes: 2   

you nailed it sailor.

plug-in cars make sense in countries like france that generate the majority of their electricity from nuclear sources.

given all the environment concerns over nuclear (a rich irony) the US is saddled with mostly coal-fired power plants that would render a plug-in car the height of hypocrisy.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2008 10:52:29 PM | | Votes: 1