18 Votes

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories already are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp.

1UAW submitted on 12/13/2008 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 3:42:06 AM

44 user comments | Category: Spy Shots | Source: | SOURCE: news.moneycentral.msn.com

at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota — generally viewed as the main competitor of the Detroit Three — says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

The union, GM and Chrysler have contended that the companies have restructured and the UAW has granted concessions that would make them competitive in 2010, but the economy went south this year and forced them into trouble. A third Detroit automaker, Ford Motor Co., asked for loans in case of emergency but says it has enough cash to make it through 2009.

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— 1UAW (View Profile)

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Santa, take the UAW and put it thru a meat grinder is all I want for Christmas :->
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 11:39:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

agreed! In reading an article in USA today, the only people who are not agreeing to any bailout is the UAW! they are worthless.
— 2ndbimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 11:42:33 AM | | Votes: 6

We all are totally confused as the Union leader keeps talking about hourly wages of some $30 per hour and the car companies keep complaining about labor costs of some $75 per hour. Let's have a complete breakdown of direct wages and benefits as well as all the overheads applied to those figures to arrive at total cost to the manufacturer. Until we get that complete breakdown we might as well be talking about apples and oranges when comparing cost structures of the Detroit 3 and the foreign transplants.

Accountants can do all sorts of tricks by allocating overheads in whatever way best suits company interests.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 12/16/2008 12:21:38 PM | | Votes: 1

of course, bad management over the years helped them in to this hole
— 2ndbimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 11:42:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8

Yes.. If only they had been run as efficiently and effectively as those in the Financial and Public sectors..
— AgentOrange (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 12:11:20 PM | | Votes: 1

Do not even talk about the mess the financial sector as done to this country, they are the crooks that are responsible for the decline of the auto industry and the reason for any US automaker loans
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 1:05:16 PM | | Votes: -5

Jonathan Cutler asked an interesting question in a recent oped piece in the LA Times. Why has the UAW been unable to organize any of the transplants? The first transplants were in the midwest, not in the south. Cutler points out that the union leadership has failed its now dramatically reduced membership by not organizing these plants,allowing a large competitive force to develop. If that force were organized it would be contributing to supporting the huge mass of retirees which represent $15 out of the $73 we keep reading about. Of course it then would have to contend with an an even larger international labor force making autos.

Question for 1UAW. Why don't the workers in the transplants see the UAW as a benefit to them? It is pretty clear that they do not.
— NorthstarSRX (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 12:40:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

NorthstarSRX .... First of all I find your logical question filled with facts and not just the usual "I hate unions" or " The unions are greedy" quite refreshing.

1. Fact is over the years we have tried to organize the south, many of the workers have been very receptive. Until mid 2007 the pay gap was very wide between Toyota and Gm.

2. A company like Toyota loves the so called "Right to work" states. In these states the average worker has far fewer rights then most other states. You could be fired for no reason, it is hard to file a complaint about something you feel is wrong about your job ,or safety when working in "right to work" state. Toyota is known to have "Temporary workers " working for years without being hired permanently. This dose not help our economy "Temps" do not buy houses or cars because they do not have a stable source of income.

3. Just to utter the word union in a Toyota plant and one could be let go for no reason.This makes it very difficult to unionize a Toyota plant. I work for GM, and not everyone wants to be represented by the UAW and we have CHOICE if we would like to or not.

4. Toyota has a union in Japan and just last year they won higher wages and today enjoys their free health care provided by Japan. Here in the U.S in the 50's they put plants in the south because they could pay the population less because there where few jobs and the average person was happy just to be working.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/14/uaw-says-union-fever-rising-at-toyotas-kentucky-plant/
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 1:35:44 PM | | Votes: -5

NorthstarSRX.... Thanks for an actual discussion instead of the usual "MySpace" type chatter ive been getting
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 1:37:53 PM | | Votes: -1

1UAW Going back to my question to you. The point is that while the UAW tried to organize the transplants they were unable to. Not all the transplants are in right to work states. Plus there are unions in the right to work states; look at the service and government unions there.

The issue that the UAW faces is that the people in the transplants do not want to be part of the UAW. As you say they appear to be happy to have a good job and reasonable benefits and most seem to like their companies. Management and workers seem to have established a better working relationship in those facilities. The problem is that the transplant model wage and benefit package is now the dominant model in the USA as these plants have captured over half the market. The Detroit based companies have to match that package to be viable. So in a sense the UAW leadership has shot itself in the foot by not organizing those plants much like GM management has shot itself with failing to design and build cars people want to buy. (there are some great exceptions to the latter point.) The gist of the article I referenced points this out.

Back when Chrysler first got federal aid Iococca went to the UAW and said he had no jobs at $23/hr (read bankruptcy) but he had a lot at jobs at $17/hr. They worked a deal and most workers kept their jobs. It seems the question is on the table again.

A couple of notes on Japanese unions. Did you know that when they are on strike they keep on working? They wear black armbands to show they are on strike in support of their leadership that is negotiating whatever issue needs to be resolved. Also the Japanese make large use of temps and small subcontractors as a part of their "lifetime employment" practice. In order to keep the lifers constantly productive they move temps and work in and out as demand goes up and down. That way they keep their costs under control and their stockholders happy. Of course the temps do have government healthcare so temping is better there in that regard. Interestingly, in the USA union worker pension funds are major stockholders in American companies and they like it that firms in the electronics, software, pharmaceutical, and other businesses use temps and subcontractors in the same manner. Those pension funds need high stock prices in order to pay out benefits.
— NorthstarSRX (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 12:23:26 AM | | Votes: 2

If so, why is the UAW so adamant at not dropping wages as the GOP senators demanded? According to this article, they'd actually make a few cents more on average.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 3:19:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

The media is a nightmare foe us. They love to overstate our wages and benefits. It makes for a good read and it sells newspapers, ad time and anything else, just like all negative news. People like 009, several I even offered him a copy of our last UAW national agreement that gave GM many large concessions, at a time when GM was healthy in 2007.
I have received no response what so ever. I put much thought into why and realized that he had already knew of our concessions to GM, but since he is the guy that runs the site. What better way to keep traffic up on Autospies, and keep posters posting? Negative news, and lots of it.

To specifically answer your question huu.. We gave so much to GM in 07' Mr.. Gettlefinger would be hard press to find more to give. When we gave major "give backs" in 07' it barley made national news no one cared of our sacrifice, truth is since 07' we do make what Toyota makes in the US. Where Toyota has the Advantage is when they can ship cars from Japan where the labor hours is cheaper because Japan takes care of the health care, and before the credit crunch the Yen was valued lower then the dollar. So not only are Japanese cars cheaper but Toyota was getting back a higher value currency the dollar. Making Toyota's number selling car the Corolla a huge cash cow.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 4:16:22 PM | | Votes: -5

huu .....If you are trying to imply that toyota workers are happy making the wage that they are making now and do not want more money you are seriuosly mistaken. They are no different then you or me, evryone wants to work and see thier wages rise. Even the kid at Burgerking, there is no magic in the non-union plants.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 10:53:50 AM | | Votes: 0

I'll say this again, this has nothing to do with uaw. republicans hate organized labor because they are the party that represents big business, not the hard working people. if it was up to them the average citizen would work 3 jobs just to feed his family.

this is not about salaries, its about benefits and health care. and if republicans want to blame someone for it they better look in the mirror. who killed the health reform hillary clinton proposed back in 90's? who has done everything to keep the health care in this country a 'big business' institution?

go look in the mirror stupid repubilcans, not at uaw
— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 5:48:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Who was going to pay for the health care dummy? You?
— 993Turbo (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 9:17:19 PM | | Votes: 1

all of us, like in every other developed country.

but we have to bring down costs. USA health care system costs $6,100 per person, ranked #37 in the world. France has a health care system that costs $3,500 per person, ranked #1 in the world.

Can't argue against it. i don't care how big of a right wing moron you are.
— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 12/16/2008 12:44:09 PM | | Votes: 1

Nice try..."big business" doesn't "run" healthcare. The reason it is so f'd up is because of the same reasons housing/mortgages are in the shitter now too...gov't rules/mandates. Almost everything an insurance company, healthcare company, hospital etc does is based off of, take a guess....Medicare/Medicaid rules set up by the lovely idiots in Washington, both Dem and Repub.

Hillarycare would be an even bigger disaster and I really could give two $*@& what other countries do. Government run anything, especially at the Federal level, has done nothing but F things up for 40 years or so. I'm just amazed people keep coming back and asking for the "Feds" to do something when their track record is so f-ing terrible. It's like investing in the same ol stock that keeps going down, down, down. No thanks...
— cktoo (View Profile)

Posted on 12/19/2008 9:09:35 PM | | Votes: 1

As you can see from the hate my post get deboosted all the time with no logical reply. If someone disagrees with me they should be man enough to leave a reply.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 7:56:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

1UAW,
I doubt Japan's wages are any lower than here. Currently the Yen is also at about 97 vs the USD instead of the 117 from 6months back. If anything, the big 3 have the advantage now in regards to currency fluxuation.

Canada has universal healthcare, we also have an overall tax rate of about 45% (all levels). Nearly half of my home province's annual budget goes into healthcare.

Personally, if the UAW wants to make themselves useful, instead of going on strike the first chance the get, why don't they boycott anything that isn't manufactured in a developed country (i.e. saw labour laws, basically same cost of doing business). I know Wal-Mart doesn't sell wipers with 'Made in USA' anymore, instead now its Mexico, China or Korea.
Instead, everyone's wants the absolute lowest prices possible.

As for cars, I'd rather buy something built here even if the net profits go to another country. GM making money by importing rebadged cars from Korea or parts from China does no ordinary person any good. Toyota building cars with 80% N.A. content helps a lot of people here.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/american.cars/index.html

DinamoR,
Do you think President Jesus' universal health insurance will be any better? More people will have insurance so more people will have to fight with the insurance companies inorder to get them to meet their obligations. Universal health insurance is NOT universal healthcare.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 9:06:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

huu... "I doubt Japan's wages are any lower than here"

You would be right, but do nor forget toyota dose not have to pay for health care in Japan.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 9:36:17 PM | | Votes: -1

huu you live in north America buying a car becuse UP TO 80% of its content is made in the US still dose not help our economy. There are American made cars that to have UP TO 80% of thier content made in north America and 100% of the profit returning to North America unlike imports.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 9:40:12 PM | | Votes: 0

Not counting todays value of the dollar vs the yen, but for the last decades the yen has been under valued against the dollar. This is another way Japan supports it industries.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 10:57:21 PM | | Votes: 0

yeah, NOT having health care is just so much better than having it! I mean, all that time and stress saved from not having to argue with insurance companies, right?
— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 12/16/2008 12:45:02 PM | | Votes: 1

regarding above, it should read "same labour laws".

Big business will understand to move jobs back if nobody buys any of their slave labour goods. I'd love to see Wal-mart go bankrupt.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 9:08:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

The UAW dose not support Walmart at all, but you have to look at like this. As much as people love Toyota and how they pay thier workers they are no different than Walmart, both companys pay the less they can and workers do not have rights all.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2008 9:42:50 PM | | Votes: 0

The largest employer in the country? They would get a bailout first.
— 993Turbo (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 9:21:31 PM | | Votes: 0

Also one of the lowest paying, no one working at walmart can afford to buy a home and a car, besides management and there are not many of those.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 10:55:08 PM | | Votes: -1

1UAW

You are just pulling small parts from the context of this and other articles.

And as far as helping US economy, I think that foreign manufacturers might be helping this country more than Big 3.
— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 12:11:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

I just played the same game as oo9 has been doing,but I did not make up my own headline of the article. It consists of a true statement in the body of the article to prove a valid point and not just how I personally feel. And no the imports do not help our economy more if all the profit goes over seas it does not matter how many people they employ, they are taking money OUT of the country.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 3:46:00 AM | | Votes: -1

For starters, all foreign manufacturers are paying income taxes, while Big 3 don't. Why they don't? Because they, unlike foreign car makers, are running losses for last few years.

While you might argue they are paying property taxes and payroll taxes, but so do foreign companies.

So, at the end of the day/month/year foreign car makers are pumping more $$$ into US than Big 3.
— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 12:13:38 PM | | Votes: 0

vladyxa ....

"For starters, all foreign manufacturers are paying income taxes, while Big 3 don't."

---- You could not be any more wrong. Actualy import makers pay less and they have the luxuary of having a bidding war between states in the form of which state will give them the biggest tax break.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 5:00:23 PM | | Votes: 0

The biggest tax break to build a new plant between the states that is.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 5:01:46 PM | | Votes: 0

1UAW

Thank you for proving again that you are just blah-blah-blah, and have no idea what you are talking about.

And thank you, I had good laugh at what you said that "Actualy import makers pay less" income taxes. Please amuse me more, and tell me how are they paying more income taxes when they have no profit, but only losses.
— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 10:37:00 PM | | Votes: 0

vladyxa... I geuss this is real funny, you know its only YOUR tax dollars helping a forign company.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/28/ap/business/mainD8IHDPS06.shtml

If you dont have time to read the whole story.

Indiana offered $141.5 million in incentives to the company, which included tax credits and abatements, training assistance and a promise to expedite the long-sought interchange upgrade at U.S. 421 onto I-74, state officials said
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 11:33:58 PM | | Votes: 0

You just dont get it. OMG.

First you blame media, then you take our a number out of content of the article. At the same time you have no idea what you are talking about.

Anyway, the state would give an incentive to any manufacturer who would decide to build a plant, not just foreing carmaker. Thus, your point is - you have no point.

At the end it comes down to - who makes money, and who doesn't. Big 3 don't make money - don't pay income taxes. Foreign manufacturers make money - they DO PAY income taxes.
— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 12/16/2008 2:51:06 PM | | Votes: 1

Have you noticed that UAW1 is usually the only blogger who always takes up for the worthless union. He has an answer for everything on why it's not the UAW fault (not to mention his negative blogging numbers). Let's see Pontiac Aztec, Ford Pinto, AMC Gemlin, Buick RoadMaster Station Wagon, Ford AeroStar need there be anything else said.
— gkearns56 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 9:44:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

It also seams like I am one of the few people here with facts, and have something to contribute to the topics. Instead of the usual bashing on this site. The fact is the media dose not trll the entire truth, and leaves a negative light on the the UAW. You guys think all we do is strike and sit around, well it is far from the truth.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 10:36:59 AM | | Votes: 0

Your comment is worthless! The hourly wages are in line with other long established foreign car plants in the US as has been pointed out factually time and again (oh and cost of living is a bit more in Michigan than Alabama). I don't agree with all the Unions do, however I do understand why the total $ costs are higher per employee at the big 3. They have hundreds of thousands of retirees that are factored into overall cost/hr due to the US having huge car companies since the 50s! The cars you mention were not designed by the Union BTW. Oh and take a look at the new cars coming from these manufacturers they are starting to be pretty darn nice! I admit that I was not interested in any GM car in 2000 when I bought a BMW M5, but when I get ready to update I think the CTS-V will be a very serious candidate. That is not the only example, quality surveys show the domestic automakers in the game, most magazine reviews have a lot of the big 3 cars very competitive. If some stupid politicians want the last large scale US major manufacturing business go down the drain... I hope we remember who they were in 2 or 4 years.

— valhallakey (View Profile)

Posted on 12/15/2008 3:33:58 AM | | Votes: 1

993Turbo,
The largest minimum wage employer maybe.

Wal-Mart probably is also indirectly China's largest employer as well.

1UAW,
You say the big 3 have 80% N.A. content because its the law. What about Toyota's 80% N.A. content which I assume is not mandatory (hence why you mentioned it).

Truthfully though, Japanese carmakers have more models I'd consider buying. Aside from CTS, Tahoe, Malibu and Crown Vic, there really aren't many Big 3 vehicles I'd seriously consider buying (new Jeeps aren't real Jeeps).

Japan may have gov't funded healthcare, but according to this site, they pay for it through taxes just like Canada (even higher than us at 50%). I'm sure there are loopholes for some.
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/japan/japan_tax.asp

Anyway, I'm indifferent regarding healthcare, if you happen to get it, then don't complain if taxes are higher.

Just to give you an idea of how out of touch unions are. The Canadian Postal service currently has their support workers union on strike (it started about a month ago) and nobody in Canada has noticed (I only found out today and I follow the news). Sorry, but anytime Canada Post or any monopoly/public union goes on strike, Canadians generally don't care because we usually realize we can do without them (and the strike is in the unions best interests, not their customers or students in the case of education).
As for private unions (i.e. CAW), if they get greedy, they're more than welcome to strike themselves into bankruptcy.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 10:12:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

huu Just as countries, Unions are different they have thier own goals and thier own rules. You can not compare my Union to the CAW or your governments postal service.

And if you would consider buying a crown vic i know you are out of touch with American cars.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 12/14/2008 11:03:07 PM | | Votes: 0

I'm a little confused. If a company folds, does the Union still exist?
— 100tnega (View Profile)

Posted on 12/16/2008 6:36:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

UAW,
You insult me because of my preference of American car. I think I'll definitely buy an import next time.

There's a reason why the police use Crown Vics aside from the fact that's what their original purpose was for, it's also built a lot better than some Mexican Fusion.

Sorry but unions have served their purpose and anything they do now is purely for greed and self-interest.

100,
"Bankruptcy before pay cuts" means UAW = Unemployed Autoworkers.
Decades of outrageous demands are coming back to haunt the UAW/CAW in the form of no public sympathy. It's easier to demand CEO blood when the blue collar workforce shows they're willing to sacrifice a little more of their salaries which are 3 or 5x greater than minimum wage.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/16/2008 6:55:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

At various points in time Unions have been useful. However most manufacturers now realize that their employees are one of thier most valuable assets and need to pay competitive wages, benefits and provide safe working conditions - All without union involvement.

Many unions (UAW included) have devolved into quasi-socialist operations that provide little incentive for hard work and continuing education to allow growth for individuals in the unionized world. Unions are SUPPOSED to provide a competent and trained workforce that management schedules to work. Unions are SUPPOSED to provide leadership to monitor management adherance to contractual obligations. Unions are SUPPOSED to represent workers when contractual obligations are violated using a greivance process. What unions have devolved to is a group of power-hungry patriarchs who ensure money is collected to support the union outings to Las Vegas for annual whoopla sessions, and who waste time with bringing grievances that are not supported by contract or labor law to the table for workers who THINK they have been mistreated.

The UAW are misrepresenting the wages and benefits discussed in this article. In order to get an accurate picture of what is actually paid you need to consider the wage and benefits, which include many contractual obligations such as partial wage payments for time not worked that supplements unemployment; medical benefits; pension and 401k contributions from the employer, vacation and holiday wages and overtime pay. Many of these topics are strangely missing from the article.

I am not anti-union. There are many useful unions today, particularly among tradesmen. The IBEW comes to mind, where they provide a well trained workforce that has documented skills, trade rankings (apprentice, journeyman etc) and they work with management groups to provide them a well respected workforce.

Until the UAW actually sits down and negotiates fair wages and benefits, removes featherbedding clauses, and reduces their wasteful expenditures of union members monies, they are nothing more than an impediment to the growth of the US automotive industry.
— irloyal (View Profile)

Posted on 12/19/2008 11:51:52 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories already are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp.

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