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Tags: Mercedes, Lexus, Chevrolet

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How do Mercedes BlueTec SUVs stand up to Lexus RX and Chevy Tahoe Hybrid?
Even though diesel is topping $5 a gallon in some areas of the U.S., Mercedes-Benz believes that its new line of 50-state clean-diesel Blutec vehicles will account for 15 percent of SUV and crossover sales. Ready to go on sale this October, Mercedes-Benz will debut the new R 320 BlueTec, ML 320 BlueTec and GL 320 BlueTec.

All are powered by a 3.0L V6 BlueTec diesel engine that produces 211-hp with a peak torque of 398 lb-ft. All models are 20 to 33 percent more fuel-efficient than their gasoline counterparts. Not to mention the payback period is two years faster than that of a hybrid SUV. Flaunting some figures, Mercedes-Benz says that the ML 320 BlueTec can travel up 600 miles on a single fill, while the GL 320 BlueTec can average a combined fuel-economy of 24mpg and the RL 320 BlueTec improves fuel-economy by 20 percent compared to its gasoline brother.

Mercedes-Benz says that it will charge a premium of about $1,000 for its new diesel SUVs and crossovers, said Stephen Cannon, vice president of marketing for Mercedes-Benz USA.

That’s nice, but if you take a look at the ML 320 BlueTec and the GL 320 BlueTec and compare it to their closest rivals, say the Lexus RX for the ML and the Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid for the GL, things don’t seem too bright for Mercedes-Benz.

The RX400h all-wheel-drive starts... Read Article
How do Mercedes BlueTec SUVs stand up to Lexus RX and Chevy Tahoe Hybrid?



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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 6/30/2008 2:14:24 PMView My AgentSpace
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From this article:

"Fuel-economy wise, the EPA rates the Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid at 21/22mpg (city/highway) and Mercedes-Benz says the GL 320 BlueTec will get 17/23."


From a recent Edmunds comparison of the Mercedes GL 320CDI against the Tahoe hybrid:

"The diesel GL also handles and stops better, while offering superior seat comfort and utility. And with its combined fuel-economy average of 23.9 mpg offering a substantial margin over the Tahoe's 20.9 mpg, the Benz easily wins our fuel-economy test, too."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=125645


I'd be surprised if the Bluetec got poorer mileage than the CDI.

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Threepoint1415926Threepoint1415926 - 6/30/2008 3:22:06 PM
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EPA estimates are always really low for Diesels for some reason. Edmunds actually drove the vehicle so they were able to calculate mileage themselves instead of relying on the EPA testing cycle.


BoredBored - 6/30/2008 4:07:50 PM
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@ Turbo,

Did you notice that the eGM article used the EPA estimates for the 2WD Tahoe Hybrid instead of the 4WD in comparison to the GL320 CDI? What a sloppy job on eGM's part on reporting! It would have been nice if they had reported on overall driving range on a full tank of fuel: 490 miles in the Tahoe, 447 miles in RX (CITY DRIVING ONLY, 413 miles hwy), approx. 602 for the ML, and 634 for the GL (715 miles if you add the reserve tank into the equation).
Towing is an embarrassment for the RX, only 3500 lbs.! It's 6200 lbs. for the Tahoe, 7200 lbs. for the ML, and 7500 lbs. for the GL.

And all of these specs were pulled from the respective manufactures' websites, not eGM.


ghosthunterghosthunter - 6/30/2008 4:08:29 PM
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EPA uses emitted CO2 content to calculate MPG. They don't actually burn a gallon of gas to come up with the number. I hope they used the right table for diesel cars.

However, EPA number is use to simulate the average users. I can get higher than EPA number (even the old EPA rating) on virtually all the vehicles I had. But, I am also well acknowledged not everyone drives the way I do, and I can get better or worse MPG (10 or 30) depending on my mood. Just like most of my co-works’ prius get 50 mpg+ while top gear get their prius rated at 17 mpg.

And I agree 23.9 mpg is a substantial boost from 20.9mpg (19% better). However, when you factor in the price difference between diesel ($5.19) and 87 gas ($4.59) (13% more expensive), your net saving is less than 3 cents per mile. or less than 300 per year if you drive 10k/year. A Regular service for diesel vehicle can easily off set that price.



damikcodamikco - 7/1/2008 12:51:38 AMView My AgentSpace
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To the above statemnts add the fact that diesel cost about 30% more than gasoline that makes the Chevy a better bargin.


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 7/1/2008 5:27:59 AMView My AgentSpace
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How? the chevy cost over $50k


WhelanWhelan - 6/30/2008 2:18:09 PM
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How did the other agents let this get posted, blasphemy! I call Shinanigans! LOL, ok now that I had my fun. I am not shocked about this at all. Diesel where I live is passed $5 at this point. Approximately $5.16 last I check two weeks ago, could be higher now. Image is a huge perception tool with Americans, it's a given with a lot of people worldwide actually.

So when someone drives by a station and sees gas at $4.20 and diesel at $5.16 then they cruise by the dealership and notice diesel versions of cars are even more pricey than their gas counterparts, you are not going your job of reeling them in.

If I was at a dealer looking at a Jetta for example. I can get the eco 4 banger which gets probably 30mpg or a tad over. The 6cyl which probably gets 24-26mpg maybe, and the diesel which gets close to 40 mpg. All of these are average guesstimates btw, which is what the average consumer would think of off the top of their head without research.

So moving on, I go to the dealer and see the 4 cyl Jetta starts at 16 or 17k. The 6cyl starts at 19-20 and the diesel starts at 21-22. That is 5-6k higher than the 4 cylinder. I'm not looking for power, or this hot performance car, I just want something simple that gets good mileage. Well 40 does sound good, but 30 is no scoff. And gas is still cheaper than diesel, so because I don't wanna crunch numbers I call the 4 cylinder the better buy.

Two negatives with higher prices on the cars, higher prices with diesel, and the fact that diesel pumps are not exactly as available as gas ones, not every gas station has diesel, and with the cost of fuel goin up so much, some have stopped carrying it because they cannot afford it and get a negative return.

Sum that all up and the fact that in the US, diesels are still mainly seen as for trucks and busses and smelly and smokey. I know they are not, but you need to think of the average consumers POV. Maybe they can change that and kudos to them for trying, but I don't see it being a HUGE a shift as they claim. 15% of your sales is a lot.

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BoredBored - 6/30/2008 3:36:18 PM
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@ Whelan,

Actually, the Jetta base engine is a 2.5L 5 cyl, not a 4. But I like the point you made! I struggle with that same argument with my best friend. We went to college together and I'm baffled when he has such a simplistic view of the world and doesn't take the time to try to analyze all of the facts and perspectives. He runs his own business and is in need of a new truck. I say go diesel for resale value, cost per mile and extended driving distances. His response is that he doesn't need all that torque.
Ah, the debate continues....


Agent63Agent63 - 6/30/2008 2:19:06 PMView My AgentSpace
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I personally think the RX shouldn't even be compared to the ML. Reason behing it's bigger and priced a little more. Compare top ML model to top RX model and you'll see the major difference. I always saw ML and X5 as the primary competition. RX will go against the X3 and GLK better. Lexus GX should be a little better for the ML to go against.

My two cents.

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ghosthunterghosthunter - 6/30/2008 3:36:26 PM
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they are comparable size-wise.

and i doubt anyone would cross-shop a X3 to a RX.
just like no one would cross-shop a 135 to a GS350.


BoredBored - 6/30/2008 3:40:00 PM
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You're so right, Agent63. The GX would be a much better competitor. Too bad it's not available with a hybrid engine, which would make the Toyota trolls happy.


LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/30/2008 5:54:56 PM
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i dont know how to put this, but you're wrong. lol

the RX competes head to head with the ML350.


Agent63Agent63 - 7/2/2008 11:20:46 AMView My AgentSpace
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Then that's as far it goes. It doesn't compete anywhere close to an ML550 or an ML63.


MichaelTaylorMichaelTaylor - 6/30/2008 2:49:09 PM
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Here we go again. Must I repeat what is already well known?

RX vs ML

Design: RX
Performance: RX
Fuel economy: RX
Green factor: RX
Quality: RX
Interior: RX
Reliability: RX
Fun to drive: RX
Better AWD system: RX
Badge: ML

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MichaelTaylorMichaelTaylor - 6/30/2008 2:49:45 PM
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So basically an easy victory for the RX. This car doesn't beat the ML in comparisons for nothing.


BillBill - 6/30/2008 3:07:20 PM
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One word, no, two...

ULTRA BIASED

Incredible.


BoredBored - 6/30/2008 4:26:48 PM
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@ the troll MT,

Hey idiot, why don't you provide us with actual comparisons that have been documented by a legitimate source?

And why don't you grow some cojones and stop repeating everything your Daddy and other people say.


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 6/30/2008 6:17:44 PMView My AgentSpace
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Better AWD system!!! Better performance!!! You are on crack MT the camry based rx couldn't dream of performing like the ml. for one the engine in the rx is mounted the wrong way, its a frontwheel drive setup for cryin out loud. and fun to drive??? come on the ml would outperform the rx. the rx drives like a wet sponge. As far as design, well that is in the eye of the beholder. I'll give the rx the reliability and green factor but thats about it.


RupertRupert - 6/30/2008 7:53:38 PMView My AgentSpace
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The RX400h doesn't even have proper AWD - the rear wheels are electric only! It can't go off road at all!


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 7/1/2008 5:27:12 AMView My AgentSpace
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thanks for mentioning that rupert. I had forgotten about that. Wonder what happens when you go through a dep puddle of water lol.


mmeeccmmeecc - 6/30/2008 4:22:35 PM
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Hey Michael,

You forgot to mention that you can go 14,000 miles on a single tank of gas in a Lexus RX.

Ahhhhhhh, aren't Lexus' dreamy? They're the "bestest" cars in the whole wide world..... :) :) :) :)

I can't wait to grow up and be just like my idol Michael Taylor..... yay!!!!

Please tell us more Mr. Lexus Man.....

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BoredBored - 6/30/2008 4:37:10 PM
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ROFL, mmeecc!


MZautoMZauto - 6/30/2008 4:52:21 PM
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There is a brand new RX coming out at the end of year, right?

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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/30/2008 5:56:01 PM
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yes, will be unveiled this fall/winter at the paris autoshow and available Q1 of 2009


dwatsondwatson - 6/30/2008 7:25:05 PMView My AgentSpace
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ok here's the deal.

If you do a lot of highway driving diesel is the better alternative.

If you are stuck in traffic crawling about town most of the day hybrid is the way to go.

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huu76huu76 - 6/30/2008 8:26:24 PM
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bored,
The ML320CDI has a 25 gallon fuel tank, the RX400h has a 14.1 gallon tank.
The RX wins in city and overall mpg and they both tie on the hwy. Fact is, the RX is more fuel efficient and much, much cleaner. The size of the gas tank doesn't really matter in actuality.

Bluetec will have a little lower fuel economy as low sulphur diesel loses about 3% mileage vs the old dirty stuff. Bluetec needs LSD to work, the old stuff just clogs up the filters and makes the system all but useless (big oil did most of the work, Bluetec just cleans up whats left).
If you want an idea of what sort of mileage the next RXh will have, checkout the new Highlander hybrid, it beats the RXh by 2mpg.

Rupert,
The RXh will do about as much offroading as a Range Rover, X5 or ML, basically a little snow and rain on pavement.
Granted its only rated for 3500lbs, but if someone absolutely needs more power, they'll buy something else. Doesn't seem to bother the RX's customers.
Not bad though, its based off the Camry but is rated 2500lbs more than the E320 Bluetec's tow rating.

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Bmw8terBmw8ter - 6/30/2008 11:03:58 PM
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LSD is illegal in some vehicles and will cause you to fail some emissions tests depending on the vehicle, and possibly damage the engine to some extent; not that ULSD is helping matters.

The majority of diesel outlets are starting to switchover to supplying ULSD, which is what is required on all new diesels engines in the U.S.

What isn't stated are the problems that is faced by owners of the Mercedes 3.0 CRD engine that is used in these vehicles. ULSD has less energy because of the emission regulations, thus leading to lowered fuel economy and possible engine problems; and ULSD costs more than LSD. Blutec isn't going to help matters. There are some computer updates to the 3.0 engine that reduces the efficiency of the engine even further than ULSD, and numerous computer problems.

To sum up my point, it doesn't matter what diesel vehicle you buy in the U.S., after 2007, they're all made strictly for ULSD, and there's a chance you're going to encounter some problems early on.

Despite these issues, I still want a diesel, however.



BoredBored - 7/1/2008 2:01:30 AM
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@ huu,

You're slipping a little. I know you are trying to make a point but of what I am not sure.
If you look at my 1st post (to TurboSpyder), you'll notice that the RXh falls short of the ML on the hwy by 189 miles, and drive almost 7 miles further only on city streets (granted, that's not that big of a difference). And that completely excludes the 3.4 gal reserve tank. According to Lexus' website, the RXh has a 17.2 gal fuel tank and EPA est. of 26 city(447 mi.)/24 hwy (413 mi.).

And why in the world would you try to compare the Camry-based RXh tow capacity of 3500 lbs. to an E320 Bluetec Sedan, especially when that same engine handles 7200 lbs in the ML and 7500 lbs in the GL? I don't get it.


85bmw745i85bmw745i - 7/1/2008 5:31:42 AMView My AgentSpace
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Are you smoking what michael taylor smokes! Yeah the X5 and ML aren't off road beast, but the range rover is a BEAST off road. heres a hint go on youtube and look up camel trophy. You obviously have no knowledge of automobiles or you would have never said that about range rover.


TheSailorTheSailor - 7/1/2008 6:57:14 AMView My AgentSpace
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Huuey... I think you should try and take a land rover off-road... ANd then an RXh afterwards... Better keep the land rover close by! Range Rovers are still quite capable of going ofroad... They might not be as capable as a "real" offroader, but if you need something for the farm to get around the fields, it is quite capable. Even the RRS. The RX is basically a Camry with a bit of extra ground clearance! You do NOT want to go offroad in one of those. Even the X3 or the ML will do far better offroad than the RX!


MonkMonk - 7/1/2008 3:41:40 AMView My AgentSpace
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Ok, for the record, I'm loving my GL diesel.

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TheSailorTheSailor - 7/1/2008 6:47:17 AMView My AgentSpace
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I know I've mentioned this several times, but I'm going to do it again anyway: The EPA ratings for hybrids are scewed because they are made on a basis of a fully charged battery... This means that the car will get an inflated mileage because you don't have to spend as much engine power to charge the batteries.

The thing about hybrids is that the only real gain you'll see is the regen brakes, and as BMW showed, you don't need a heavy hybrid drive to utilize that! The generator gain is negligible during normal driving conditions as you will only gain anything from the generator during standstill. And as several manufacturers have shown in several production cars, it is just as sensible to use an engine cut out system which just shuts down the engine during standstill.
And I haven't even begun to touch the issues of total life cycle outlet! Don't forget just how harmful those nickel batteries are to produce!

I would really love to see what would happen if you took a Prius and just yanked out all the hybrid nonsence so you weust left with the engine and the regen brakes! I'm pretty damn sure the mileage would be the same if not better! And the car would be a helluvalot cheaper!

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huu76huu76 - 7/1/2008 1:22:23 PM
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bored,
www.lexus.ca The RXh has a 65L or 14.3gallon tank.

My point is that you can have all the torque in the world and it'd be useless if you chassis can't handle it. All the diesel lovers like to brag about 400ft.lb torque on a sedan chassis that can't use it.

To the rest.
Did I say the Range Rover wasn't offroad capable? I said it sees about as much offroad as a sedan.
If you go hardcore offroading, I'll put my money on a Jeep (GC or YJ) over a Range Rover anyday. I'll bet you the Range Rover breaks first. Fewer moving parts means fewer broken parts. On image, then the Range Rover wins easily.

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85bmw745i85bmw745i - 7/1/2008 7:04:16 PMView My AgentSpace
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Cherokee? I don't think so. Maybe a jeep wrangler rubicon would beat a land rover, but the cherokee, I don't think so. Not saying the cherokee sucks, but it doesn't have the active terrain response and adjustable ride height that the land rover, range rover or range rover sport has. I agree it would beat the lr2 (freelander) though.


huu76huu76 - 7/1/2008 1:25:58 PM
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btw Sailor, I recall a comparison test, the last X5 couldn't climb a hill that the RX could.

Engine start/stop was on the first Prius 10 years ago. The only way a BMW will run in the city without gas is if you got out and pushed. So synergy drive is a little bit more than regenerative braking.

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TheSailorTheSailor - 7/2/2008 6:22:27 PMView My AgentSpace
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Synergy drive is nothing more than regenerative braking, because without gas, the Prius will get nowhere fast as well! It needs the engine to recharge the batteries. And to recharge the battery, you will use exactly the same energy as for driving the wheels minus drive train loss plus inverter and generator loss.

Inverter efficiency is roughly 90% and generator loss is generally about 5%. So this means that you loose 15% of your energy in your generator drive!

And you see, this is where my main issue with hybrid drive is! Because as a marine engineer and Powerplant technician, I can't wrap my head around how Toyota have solved an issue that the entire engineering community have been trying to solve for the last 120 years... How do they suddenly get a higher efficiency from an engine by using it as a prime mover for a generator which is then in turns used to power electric motors (again introducing at least 5% loss) instead of an engine for wheels!?

The way the laws of physics work, the output equals input minus losses... The loss in an average drive train is roughly 15-20% (from the crankshaft to the tarmac), the minimal loss in a generator-inverter-motor setup is AT LEAST 20%... And this is why I am wondering what would happen if you yanked out all the extra weight from the HSD!? You would then have the further advantage that the engine doesn't have to pull the generator during normal "down time" meaning less energy consumption and therefore lower fuel consumption. If using an engine for a generator is really so much more efficient, why aren't ships doing it (yes yes, I know that modern cruise liners have diesel electric drives, but that isn't because of the efficiency)?! My company can account 50% of their operational costs to fuel...

What all this mumbo-jumbo boils down to is, the car can only possibly recover whatever is generated during engine down time (i.e. waiting at a stop light) or from using other energy producing systems (like the brakes). And why not eliminate this down time by shutting the engine down all together? Some cars can even do this when costing down a hill or braking! An EfficientDynamics BMW doesn't consume ANY fuel while braking. Instead, it cuts of fuel supply meaning that if not declutched, the engine will actually help in stopping the car. As soon as you let go of the brake or touch accelerator (not entirely sure which) the engine cuts back in instantly without you noticing anything at all. That is why an Efficient dynamics 1-series can easily outperform and outeconomize the Prius on the road!

Uhh... And V-Dub had stop and go on the Lupo ten years ago as well...


mmeeccmmeecc - 7/8/2008 11:51:25 AM
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Good post sailor!

I can hardly believe it, it actually seems like there is some sort of informative debate going on here, not too much useless bickering, rants and Micheal Taylors. I'm shocked.

I only hope there will be more threads like this.

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