37 Votes

If Washington Let US Vote, Would We Choose To Bailout Detroit?

Agent001 submitted on 11/15/2008 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 4:07:57 PM

74 user comments | Category: Spy Shots | Source: | SOURCE: online.wsj.com

Given the abysmal performance by Detroit's Big Three, it would be better to send each employee a check than to waste it on a bailout, says David Yermack.

That's just a snippet of a really good article in the weekend journal that got me thinking...

If Washington let the people VOTE whether or not to bailout Detroit, what would the outcome be?

And is it time to let the PEOPLE speak whenever there is an issue as important as this that WE will have to pay for?

No matter WHAT side you're on or in the middle, we are at a time where you have to be OUT OF YOUR MIND to trust ANY of these people we have elected.

I say we have one more level of checks and balances for these type of issues...The Politicians should recommend solutions in tough times but when this kind of dough is on the line I say you let US make the final decision.

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If Washington Let US Vote, Would We Choose To Bailout Detroit?

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— Agent001 (View Profile)

User Comments

Absolutely, yes. I'm not in favor of the Big Three producing so many ridiculous SUVs, etc., but at the same time if either GM or Ford were to collapse, the ramifications of that would be enormously detrimental to the US economy. We don't need things to get worse than they are now. In return for a bailout, I would like to see the domestic manufacturers produce more responsible vehicles. While I personally don't buy American, I think some of the domestics are getting better, e.g., Malibu, the 2010 Fusion and the Volt. The compensation packages for top executivs, also, are insane; that needs to be adjusted.
— 204E60 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 4:30:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Absolutely NO. Its blackmail. They say "give us money so we can go deeper in the hole or we we go under and hurt the economy". The answer is to let them all merge into a single U.S. car company, or let them sell all their assets to a foreign manufacturer who will use the otherwise idle factories to produce good cars in North America, or simply nationalize the whole industry and hope this does not lead to rampant socialism. With all the management knowhow that America is famous for, I see no reason why one of these three options is not feasible.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 7:35:55 PM | | Votes: 6

get rid of the UAW, and save the company.
seriously, UAW had its time (and i give full credit to it), but now it is nothing but a cancer.
— ghosthunter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 8:04:06 PM | | Votes: 9

Hey EnnNorak: what's wrong with Socialism? Might do the USA a lot of good. Lord knows that capitalism hasn't succeeded too well. Anyway, it's already a fascist state.
— 204E60 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 9:18:33 PM | | Votes: -4

No, No, No! This is getting ridiculous! No! F*&K THEM! F*&k those labor unions, executives. Put them out of their misery.

If those companies have any future, let those executives invest in the company they supposed to believe in. Othervise, f*&k em.
— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 11:25:29 AM | | Votes: 1

"If the government wants to spend $25 billion to protect auto workers, it would do better to transfer the money to them directly (perhaps by cutting each worker a check for $10,000) rather than by keeping their unproductive employer in business."

Read the whole article before commenting...

001
— Agent001 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 4:39:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

exactly how long is that 10g's suppose to last anyway? For most of them it wouldnt pay off their credit cars.
— NItePhire (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 8:17:47 PM | | Votes: 2

For most of them would be enough to pay 2-3 months mortgage. The question should be, do you want to save the country or the companies? I choose the country, and cleanse from such corrupted companies who destroyed the American product name and pocketed billions of dollars and now they're whining for more and people actually believe them! Unbelievable!!!
— Designer1 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 7:22:23 AM | | Votes: 2

Yes, but there should be regulations on how the money can be spent!
— kpaxx (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 4:46:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

I say let them go down. The employees will either go work for other car companies or will be re-employed in "green" jobs. This country is seriously hurting for basic infrastructure investment in things such as light rail and busses. Somebody has to build them.

The employees could migrate north and work for Bombardier (light rail) or across lake Michigan and work for Oskosh (busses).

Then there will also be jobs in things such as rebuilding our electrical grid or build concentrated solar thermal power plants.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler were are horribly run companies plagued by group think. They failed to "stay on their feet" and instead became lazy and complacent. The unions didn't help...
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 6:09:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

You don't realize how many people you are talking about putting out of a job. It is plainly obvious, we are talking around 3 MILLION people between Chrysler, GM, Ford, and all the suppliers who are dependent on them to stay in business. The transplant manufacturers may employ US workers but they don't employ nearly that many NOR are they planning on opening enough jobs to employ them.

You are talking about literally overnight raising the unemployment rate in the US by over 1% (remember it is between 8-9% nationally right now). That is HUGE. Not only that but these are good paying jobs with nice health benefits and retirement options, not something that most jobs offer right now.

When you add in the retirees to the mix the situation becomes even more dire.

Think before you write something so idiotic next time.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 6:19:05 PM | | Votes: 2

your ideas for reemployment sound good. let me ask you one question. where is the money going to come from for these new jobs?
i will say though, you need buyers for cars.
the financial, real estate, and health care expense are all factors in the auto industry problems.
— olscuul (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 6:56:48 PM | | Votes: 4

91z4me, it does not matter how many jobs are lost. Ever-increasing automation will eventually shorten the work week to the point where we only have to work a few days per week to achieve the same production levels as having everyone work a full 5 days per week. I'm sure the union mentality is to oppose automation for fear that jobs will be lost in the process. Similarly we have to get out of labor-intensive manufacturing and the use of relatively unskilled labor and get into commercial activities with a high content of intellectual capital and exotic technology.

I love the fact that the F-35 fighter program will cost a trillion dollars which is more than the cost of the Viet Nam and Korean wars combined. The value of technological spinoffs to the private sector will ultimately prove that the F-35 fighter program is a great investment.

Worry about short-term job losses is a waste of time and should not interfere with the achievement of longer-term higher goals. My vision is a fully automated society with practical limits to population growth. The greenies should agree with me as overpopulation makes for an unsustainable planet with excessive pollution and conflicts arising from competition for ever-scarcer resources.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 7:54:27 PM | | Votes: -2

Instead of offering $50 billion to the big three, offer it to other companies in the form of low interest, long maturity government loans with a contingency that the companies locate in the operating area of the Big 3. Companies would include:

1. A123: Batteries
2. Toshiba: Batteries
3. GE: Electric Motors
4. Siemens: Electric Motors
5. Ricardo: Advanced gasoline engines
6. Mahle: Advanced gasoline engines
7. Toray: Carbon fiber chasis
8. SGL Group: Carbon fiber chasis
9. Eaton Corporation: hydraulic hybrid drives
10. Bombardier: Light Rail
11. Tesla Motors: Electric Vehicles
12. Aptera Motors: Electric and PHEV Vehicles

This would be rewarding well run companies that have a future while punishing poorly run companies (Big 3) that have no future. $50 Billion wouldn't be the end of it, trust me.

If the above companies were LITERALLY HANDED MONEY TO BUILD NEW FACILITIES and had to do so in the area of existing Big 3 facilities, do you really think that they would pass up the opportunity? Do you think that people fired from Big 3 plants would remain unemployed? If so, where would these (above) companies get their employees since they are being forced to locate in a specific area?
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:05:31 PM | | Votes: 0

WOW, I am amazed how many people can't see the forest for the trees. I am not talking about losing production from job loss, I am not talking about unions vs non-unions!

I am talking about MILLIONS of men and women losing their jobs instantly! I am talking about tens of millions of families instantly losing their ability to earn a living. Those families won't be able to buy anything more than what is needed to survive because they won't have the money.

That means the economy comes to even more of a halt than it is in now. Money not being spent on consumer goods and services also means less tax dollars for local, state, and federal governments. And with a few million more people out of work you need that tax revenue to pay for the unemployment they will be drawing.

What you guys are failing to realize is that the $25 Billion in no interest LOANS that is being requested by the Big 3 (more so GM than anyone else) would cost the taxpayers and consumers less than paying for the negative effects that the Big 3 collapsing would.

Perhaps people are letting their contempt for these companies products in the 70s and 80s cloud their judgment as for what is best for the country as a whole.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:40:25 PM | | Votes: 5

GreenPlease,

FYI I think A123 was purchased outright by GM roughly a year ago.

Also I don't think you could pay GE enough money to open a plant in the states, they are moving plants overseas and operating more outside the US than inside it.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:42:44 PM | | Votes: 2

Negative 91z4me. GM has a minimal interest. GE is the largest stakeholder in A123, holding a ~9% stake with about $50,000,000 all in.

The vast majority of GM's fleet from the last decade consists of gas guzzling SUVs. Fact. So I'm not buying into "hype" here. I'm buying into reality.
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:59:08 PM | | Votes: -1

GreenPlease,

Do you not also realize that EVERY automaker was rushing to either start building SUVs or to produce more over the same period simply because that is what the consumers wanted?

GM simply had some of the best on the market and dominated that segment (that is why they sold so many).
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 3:46:36 PM | | Votes: 3

Yep. Bail the idiots out. Their executives are crap, and, by the way, so are their vehicles. But there are too many jobs at stake, not to mention that we need an automotive industry here in the States.
— Maxim (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 6:16:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Why not build a new automotive industry with new technologies and new leadership?
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:06:35 PM | | Votes: -3

What kind of 'new' automotive industry do you mean? If you look at some of the most revolutionary new technology coming out much of it is from the Big 3 (Ford's new hybrid system, GM's FWD and RWD 2 mode hybrid systems, GM's Volt powertrain).

I think you are buying a little to much of the 'the Big 3 only build gas guzzling SUVs that destroy the planet hype'.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:46:00 PM | | Votes: 1

I say let them fail now rather than later which is what I think will happen if we bail them out now. Okay, realistically, we could bail the company out, but get rid of the union, all upper level management and start conducting business like the Japanese plants in the southeast are doing (workers make about $28/hour as opposed to GM workers making $58/hour, there are no unions, and no lifetime healthcare) That may sound harsh, but it is a business.
— BlakuraTLS (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 6:16:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Ya, the Japanese have a medical program . It is a one way program . You get sick or hurt on the job, you will get fixed up and you are out the door . American workers in a Japanese factory is like a pnuematic air wrench . It gets tossed out and a new one is in it's place . Japan is not going to give an American any money to take care of a medical injury that developed from a repetitive injury . Any future problems that are related to an previous injury are up to you to get public assistance because you won't have a job anyway . ..... Yes My vote goes for the AmericN
— toolatetorace (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:21:51 PM | | Votes: 2

likewise..... Also lets not forget it is a LOAN.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:25:20 PM | | Votes: 3

1UAW,

What are you doing bringing facts into it this?!

Finally someone who actually reads far enough into things to understand that the 'bailout' is a loan much like Chrysler got in the 70s.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:48:39 PM | | Votes: 3

Georgemia .... The UAW wage scale has been reduced about two years ago along with our health care all new hires entering the unions make just under $15/HR, and a huge amount of origainal employees have taken an early retirement. The basic public knowledge of the inner workings of the UAW and GM is about 20 years old.Currently GM has a longer warranty than most imports and has more cars that get over 30mpg than anyone. Many people in the south and tha west dont take the time out to notice this becuse imports are a fashion or fad to them like those little dogs in their purses.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 12:26:18 PM | | Votes: 2

1UAW, of course GM has more cars getting 30mpg or more than any other carmaker, they have more brand names under the GM umbrella than any other carmaker. GMC needs to be dissolved, Buick needs to go, and significantly reduce the Pontiac and Caddy offerings.
— Veeracer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2008 4:51:12 PM | | Votes: 1

I read the ariticle, is this the same Genuis that told the US to stop makeing TV's and VCR's? Nice to read another point of view but to suggest that the US should have stopped selling cars years ago and just bought in to the Japenese is..well..I dont even have words for it.
— NItePhire (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 8:16:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

The other question we and they should be asking is will we manufacture anything in large quantities ever again in the USA.

Our entire system and mentality has been to let someone else do it for nothing.

How can we possibly build it back?

The majority of people here don't even WANT a job or are training for one in our schools.

Any bailout of anything that revolves around manufacturing seems destined to fail to me...but what the heck do I know?

I truly hope I'm wrong and we can have a major turnaround.

001
— Agent001 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 9:14:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

001... You may well be right that major production won't ever take place in the States again. The attitude in the USA is one of anger and entitlement. Those attributes don't even exist in China and thus you see people working like maniacs for very little because they have a different attitude. Perhaps Obama can well instill a new and more positive tone for the country. If so, it couldn't come a moment too soon.
— 204E60 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 9:22:01 PM | | Votes: 3

Its this easy manufacturing equals jobs! And if we can bring in universal health care with a nice tax on imports to make them cost more and to help pay for the health care, American manufacturing can once again bring jobs and be profitable
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 12:31:13 PM | | Votes: 1

24E60 The problem with Obama is he is all for entitlement " Share the wealth"
— bfghemicuda (View Profile)

Posted on 11/24/2008 9:30:57 AM | | Votes: 1

Considering the majority vote for Obama, the U.S. won't let it's auto unions fail. The big problem will be telling them they need to take pay/benefit cuts which everyone knows the UAW will piss and moan over, even though they're overpaid.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 9:24:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

We already gave major cuts to our compensation 2 years ago our health care is not the same and all new hires make only $15 an hour.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 10:50:21 AM | | Votes: 1

Major auto maker like Fiat and VW should just buy out gm, ford and chrysler and all the workers just work for them.
— veyron1001 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 9:36:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

and call them Scab's Are Us
— toolatetorace (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:23:27 PM | | Votes: -1

I'd like to add that just because a job pays well doesn't mean it should exist. Wake up call time for Americans:

1. The market will seek the most efficient mode possible. Its means for seeking this mode will not necessarily be orderly (as we interfere) nor do they have to be pleasant.
2. No body, no government, is bigger than the market.
3. In the market, you move forward by doing more with less. There are a lot of technologies on the horizon that will lead to job destruction. That doesn't mean that they are a bad thing. Imagine if we had to solder all of our computer parts by hand? More people would be employed but would we be better off? No.
4. Globalization is generally perceived as a "good" thing in that it will allow everyone to specialize and therefore produce and consume more. The key word is "everyone." Do Americans work harder than the Chinese or Japanese? No. In order for us to maintain our quality of life we have to innovate and work "smarter" than them. All in all, however, our standard of living here in the U.S. will fall as the rest of the world rises until a parity is reached that truly reflect work ethic and intellectual capability.

An assembly line job that pays $58/hour? Seriously? Is that sustainable? No!!!
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:15:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

There is NO assembly job that pays $58 an hour.

Half of GM"s work force makes $15 an hour.\

The UAW has made many cuts to help GM' two years ago one being a lower wage for ALL new hires, also they have much less health care then the previous workforce. Stop believing what the news says or the people around the coffe pot becuase it is just untrue.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 10:23:10 PM | | Votes: 1

Outright pay is ~$15 an hour. The figure of $58/hour includes healthcare and retirement benefits.
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 12:00:39 AM | | Votes: 2

This is telling us that health care in this nation is to expensive, how long will we let rise until NO ONE can afford it?
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 12:36:31 PM | | Votes: 2

Yep, everyone will buy American cars after the Depression hits, and hits everyone hard. It needs to become a trend before people to really want to embrace it. Kind of how we all gave blood, put the flag bumper stickers on our cars and shopped after 911.
— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:25:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

but then again, no one will be able to afford a car by then.
— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:26:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

I'll bet the AIG jobs payed more than the GM blue collar jobs.

We shouldn't have bailed out AIG since we obviously can't afford to do so.
— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:28:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Stop just spamming.

If you have something to say just put it together and post it all at once. Also if you are replying to someone else's topic then hit the reply to this comment link before adding your comment.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/15/2008 11:58:27 PM | | Votes: -1

i have mixed feelings about this.

on the one hand, people forget that Capitalism is basically darwinian: survival of the fittest. there are often SHAKEOUTS when there are too many producers. the weakest companies fail and disappear. the survivors get lean too, and eventually get stronger.

this is AS NATURAL in pure capitlilism, as in the natural world and all the individual niches.

when a horse breaks a leg, out of MERCY, you shoot him. why PROLONG THE AGONY?

life goes on.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 4:36:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

we mite study the decline of the british motor industy. the strongest brands did not completely shrivel up and disappear; parent companies may've, but they got 'adopted' by stronger companies and survived.

the weaker players were consolidated into one larger company, which rationalized operations.

detroit may have to follow in these tracks, like it or not.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 4:40:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

the mixed feelings part: yes, jobs will be lost. but thats happened before in other industries.

uaw folks should be glad they got AS LONG A RUN as they did, with wages FAR in excess of their education and skills compared to factory workers in any other industry!
and while currently shrinking, the pool of BUYERS of new cars won't disappear overnite just because detroit folds its tents. when they end up buying more korean and japanese cars, THOSE plants will have to expand and HIRE more workers.

and as mentioned, there is NO LACK of potential jobs in this country. aside from new bridges and highways and other long neglected infrastructure needing work, there are thousands of potential new jobs in the green industries. the gov't, and ALL taxpayers, would be FAR BETTER OFF investing in these needs, rather than trying to keep a wounded, dying hoss on life support!
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 4:48:10 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

It dosnt matter if you like the BIG3 or not thier demise would cost you more than the loan.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 12:40:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Man I wish I could boost you +5. The words you speak were never more true.
— NItePhire (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 1:30:20 PM | | Votes: 0

Thank you i am here to educate people about the UAW, like i said before 2-3 years ago we gave up a lot of health care, and all new hires get what the import workers make which is about $15 an hour. So you cant blame th union. We are not in this problem becuse people didnt buy our cars the big three combine for about 40 -50% of US sales we are in trouble becuse of things like health care and unfair trade polices, and now the credit freeze, even most of the imports are at a down turn.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 10:57:22 AM | | Votes: 1

If they were bailed out they should include a provision that forced all of the big three executives to take a pay cut and absolutely no bonuses for there failure! It makes me sick to hear that some executives are getting bonuses.
— truckman (View Profile)

Posted on 11/16/2008 2:01:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

agreed.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 10:58:31 AM | | Votes: 2

I manufacture product in Asia, so I see the difference between Asian workers and US workers. Many US workers are lazy and feel they are entitled to benefits instead of working for them. Why do you think the airline and auto industry is in such shambles? Compared to the Asia factories I work with, the workers there work their butts off to better their lives. It's not a mystery why the Big 3 are where they are now
— Spider99 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 12:59:57 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

again from a Darwinian perspective, the asians and germans are proving to be far more adaptable, and WILL end up among the survivors of this shakeout.

even if a bailout by the gov't keeps detroit afloat (and there is NO guarantee it will), what happens DURING a PROLONGED recession/Depression? and after the NEXT recession? (assuming survival thru this one)

WHY the furriners are more likely to survive and later thrive, using capitalist darwinian metrics:

they have better GENES (workers), stronger BODIES (newer plants), and more SMARTS directing the muscles (better designers and managers).

AND, their companies are NOT AFFLICTED by PARASITES (overdemanding uaw contracts, and way OVERPAID CEOs who get inflated bonuses whether there's profits OR LOSSES!)
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 5:11:48 AM | | Votes: -1

I wish i could invite all you guys into my plant and let you be me just for an hour or two to actualy put YOUR eyes onto what goes on in a plant instead of just hear say and all of the assumptions that has spreaded over the past decades or so.

BTW most autoworkers are not fat, many of us all are races and nationalaties and look just like the working next to you.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 11:03:43 AM | | Votes: 3

Like I said, I know the diff between American and Asian plants. I've been in both.

Even the regular Joe can see the difference if they fly domestics versus European/Asian airlines. European/Asian airline employees fall head over heels to service you, the customer. Domestics? They treat you like animals in a traveling circus. Why? Cuz they know they can't get fired... unions baby!!!
— Spider99 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 12:06:23 PM | | Votes: 1

If there is ultimately a bailout there should be some conditions.But I have to say this primarily applies to GM and Chrysler but the conditions are different for each of them.
GM-The following changes must take place.
1)Rick Wagoner resigns
2)GM's most profitable car divisions are most likely
Cheverolet,Cadillac,Buick,and perhaps Saturn. The rest need to be either sold or scrapped. That includes Hummer,GMC,Saab,Pontiac.
3)GM needs to have diesel cars up and running and for sale within 2 yrs with all trucks ONLY available in diesels or hybrid diesels.
Chrysler-Chrysler only makes decent cars in their fullsize range. They need to jointly produce a mid size and small car with another foreign car maker. This needs to happen within 15 months. The Caliber,Avenger,Sebring needs to be scrapped or else completely new high quality interiors and serious suspension mods need to take place until the replacement of these cars come on line.Chrysler needs to offer diesel cars within 12 months as well as hybrids.Further the sebring and Avenger should have a restyling buck all ready to go in order to make the car appealing.
Ford-There is not much to say about them. They seem to be bringing in new cars from Europe(smart move)to sell here.However again diesels and hybrids are vital to come onto the market now.The Crown Vic and Town car have to go. The Mustang needs IRS.
Finally-The Big 3 must make sure that the unions understand that their pay scale is now the same as the average foreign competitors doing business in the US immediately. No exceptions.
— mini22 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 12:13:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Just to correct something. GMC is either the #1 or #2 most profitable divisions in GM, it is #2 or 3 in sales and basically sells rebadged Chevy trucks at inflated prices. They are a profit center. Getting rid of them would be a HUGE mistake.

Likely the profitability/investment order is GMC, Caddy, Buick, Chevrolet.

And to get rid of Pontiac (the #2 volume car division) would be a bad mistake as the volume drop wouldn't make up for the decreased engineering/marketing costs.
— 91z4me (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 11:51:43 PM | | Votes: 2

I think everyone is missing a pretty big point brought up in a Motor Trend article from Dec.2008: These are LOANS not gifts. The government gave 700 billion cash to the investment companies not too long ago and everyone is throwing up holy hell about loaning 25 billion to an industry that built america into the world power it is today. This makes no sense. As outlined in said article, the cost saving new union contracts and business plans for GM don't start taking effect until 2010, so GM need to hold on till then.
And all you immature posters saying "F@#$ em" need to go talk to your economics teacher and ask what losing 3 million jobs and one of the worlds largest companies would do to a world market. 3 million people don't just find jobs, especially jobs that will allow them to stay at their current living level. All those unemployed people will create a bunch of effects:
1: Housing market will tank further and go into a freefall the likes of which we may never recover from
2: Skilled jobs will begin to pay less. With a glut on the market, employers won't need to pay higher salaries to get the best workers. More people will make less.
3: Taxes will increase, especially with the democratic government. Everyone will be screaming for the government to help them and provide unemployment, benefits, medical, etc. Ironic because they screamed for the government to not help the company that employed them.
4: All of the support companies for the auto industry will begin to collapse. With one of the major players not ordering their products, they will be forced to cut staff or file for bankruptcy themselves creating more lost jobs.
5: Other auto companies will falter or die. Look at what is happening now with our economy. Bad economy means large items like cars don't get replaced. People will just keep the car. Everyone is hurting right now, even mighty toyota. If a major us company dies then there will be even less money, a worse economy, and less car buying. More companies could go out of business furthering this effect in America or starting the dominos in another part of the world.

This isn't just Mom and Pop's Grocery that goes out of business because Safeway has lower produce prices. This is a world company that has major ramifications. Give them the loans to allow them to make it until the new cost saving plans come into play. If these new contracts and cost savings don't help...well....we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
— komododave (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 2:08:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

They must bail em out, if they dont our economy will collapse, the ripple effect would hit every single part of our economy. Incresing unemployment, slowing down productivity... no good
— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 11/17/2008 6:56:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

It is the lessor of two evils!
The $700b for the banks that is now being used to buy assets was a waste of my dollars. That could have been given back to us and we all could have given the economy, and said banks, a big boost.
— toyfan (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 2:54:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

a comment to someone that said GM has more cars that get over 30 mpg. i own 2 cars that i GUARANTEE ave well over 40 on the interstate. I dont have an argument with someone making a decent wage, however, i feel that a person with a masters degree that taught school for over 25 years that has NEVER made any where close to what these people working on the line have been making. Some of these "workers" dont even have an high school diploma. And you want me to help bail these people out. When they quit making HYBRIDS that get 21 MPG and cost over 70,000, MAYBE i'll think about it. why cant FORD bring over some good cars from europe. same for gm, bring some of opel over. start building cars that do not fall apart before 100,000 miles
— sgtron (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 7:29:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I can't believe what some of you are saying!!

Do you really think that 25 billion will save the BIG 3? It's gonna cost a helluva lot more than that to save them. They're losing billions "monthly", so where will we be at 6m months from now? It'll be another 25 billion, if not more!!!

And what's with the whole "loan" argument. With the way they run their business, they're is NO WAY the government will be seeing ANY of that money back. They'll owe so much money to everyone, that the government will be luck if it gets a few cents on the dollar. Even if they're first in line to get paid, they'll have to fork over more cash to honor union contracts and health care contracts, etc...

This is a "DEAD END STREET". Some of you need to come to grips wit the inevitable. Swallow a big pill now instead of a huge one later....
— mmeecc (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 8:09:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Get it over with.

Rather than save the Big 3, give the money to pay unemployment and retraining to the Workers until they can move on.

No Bail Out
— rubenkincaid (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 9:44:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Considering the size of the workforce that the Big 3 employ, I hate to say it but we need to provide them the loans to re-structure AS LONG AS some points are adhered to. First of all, cap the pay on all high level executives and no bonuses....period. Secondly, get rid of the unions. They had their use prior to the EEOC, OSHA, and any other government agency that deals with ensuring a safe working environment void of any discrimination. Third, the plants need to run leaner and produce smaller inventories so that they don't have to cash flow so much unsold inventory.
This is a rough time for almost every sector but if we work smart and re-organize with a goal in mind, the Big 3 might make it through to 2010.
— Veeracer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2008 5:12:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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If Washington Let US Vote, Would We Choose To Bailout Detroit?

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