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Indian firms buying Jaguar and Land Rover doesn't make sense

rybo submitted on 11/20/2007 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 6:25:23 AM

37 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.motorauthority.com

With the sale of Jaguar and Land Rover drawing to a close two of the remaining three bidders have come under fire recently because of fears they could be mismatched with the British luxury labels.

The two companies are India’s Tata Motors and Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M), manufacturers of econo-cars and utilities.

A partner from former bidder Ripplewood Holdings, Thomas Stallkamp, has even gone so far as to question the logic of either of these Indian firms purchasing Jaguar or Land Rover. During a recent interview with Reuters, Stallkamp said “I don’t understand how a company that’s going to make cars for $2,000 can sell cars for $120,000,” in reference to Tata and its upcoming minicar.

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Indian firms buying Jaguar and Land Rover doesn't make sense

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— rybo (View Profile)

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I agree fully, Jag and Rover will be in even more trouble at the hands of some weird, horribly built cars from some weird Indian manufacturers. The Tata is horrible, my friend from India told me they are pieces of crap designed for people to at least be able to have something motorized to get them around. It is really weird....
— atomicbri (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 10:10:08 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Companies like Tata and Mahindra can't do any worse than Ford. The Jaguar product is overpriced and suffers from design flaws like too much shiny plastic "wood" on the dash which causes glare in the driver's eyes. I am disappointed that Jaguar brochures do not fully disclose the technical details of the AWD system used in the X-type. As for the Land Rover, l, like 2ndbimmer, lament the demise of the Defender 90.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 11:13:11 AM | | Votes: -4

Have you ever thought that they are bad because of the cost of the cars themselves? The cars that Tata produces are cheaper in the Indian market than the imported brands. Do you really expect Toyota quality from a car that costs less than $10,000.00 or one that will cost $3000.00, when the Toyota Corolla sells for more than $25,000? There is a huge gap in price there, and the difference is reflected in the cars, simple as that.

On the part of buying, I don't know whether buying Jaguar and Land Rover is a good idea. The reason is because Jaguar and Land Rover are on the stumbling blocks and turning them will take a lot of effort. It is a way for diversification, but Jaguar's and Land Rovers aren't what they used to be years ago. These companies will take significant investment and patience to get them to restore their former glory.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 12:14:37 PM | | Votes: 2

kart1, I think Land Rovers are excellent, and as long as they start selling diesels in the States, they are in a good position.

Jaguar is the one that needs help. They have a confused design direction (XF), not much individuality in interiors/engines and continue to struggle in major world markets. I love the XJ and XK, but there are not enough people with the money to buy those cars.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 6:01:14 PM | | Votes: 2

Okay Land Rover is not as bad as Jaguar at this moment, they do have an appeal among many.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 12:08:59 AM | | Votes: 2

ENNNORAK,

JAGUAR DOES NOT USE SHINY PLASTIC.

IT’S REAL WOOD WITH MANY COATS OF LACQUER.
— EuroCar (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 1:42:28 AM | | Votes: 5

EuroCar, if it is real wood like in the Audi A6, then why is Jaguar selling itself short by not stating so in its brochures. In any event, real or fake, the surface should not be so shiny as to make it unsafe to drive because of glare. Given the financial pressures that Ford is under, I doubt that Jag's "wood" is real. It sure does not look real.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 4:30:17 PM | | Votes: 3

EnnNorak, it is fairly implicit that if you're buying a freaking $70K JAGUAR sedan, known for their gorgeous WOOD, then you're getting REAL WOOD.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/22/2007 1:56:36 AM | | Votes: 0

Agreed. I was thinking about buying Land Rover and Jaguar so I can build the Defender 90!
— 2ndbimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 10:31:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Both were in the hands of Ford, a not very premium maker by any standard, and they mishandled the two companies' name and line up.

Imagine it in Tata's hands...
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 10:42:34 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

While its true India makes horrendously crappy cars, its also true that it has legions of incredibly skilled craftsmen and engineers, who make several products with outstanding craftsmanship. For those who don't know- the first Aston Martin AM-V8 prototype and show car (world premiere 2005) was crafted at Bombay- its coachwork hand-beaten from metal panels by skilled metal workers who have built the most exquisite items over the years. The Brits couldn't believe their eyes when they finally saw it. And that's the show car model that won the world over.
It's highly possible that Indians will bring a level of passion and craftsmanship that Ford has never been capable of. There's 8,000 years of metal working histroy in India. Maybe it'll shine again.
For those who don't believe me- go check out Tata's wing that assembles Mercedes cars from scratch. BTW- Tata also build a third of all Mercedes Truck diesels- that find their way into its trucks sold worldwide- including the brand Freightliner here.
It's a strange paradox- for though India does come off on the surface as third world chaotic- there are literally uncountable pockets of absolutely amazing craftsmanship and engineering quality there too. Maybe that why it has a $300 Billion trade surplus right now and we have a $1500 Billion deficit. As for our own manufacturing quality- don't even get me started.
— Lyall (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 10:57:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

so by your logic, Buicks built in mexico should NOT be better put together than many gm products assembled stateside, even though IN FACT THEY ARE?

DITTO many ford and chrysler products.

and what about some of the foreign plants in the u.s., where the workers' literacy level was such that PICTURES had to be drawn to teach proper assembly?
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 9:25:15 AM | | Votes: -1

It doesn't make sense for anybody to buy those brands.
— sold2early (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 11:12:30 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

NO, let them support each other and do whatever they need to do as independent, profitable companies (BMW).
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 6:02:41 PM | | Votes: 1

The fact is India is a poor uneducated developing 3rd world country with a growing population of 1.2 billion people in perspective, that’s larger then all of Europe, US, Canada and Australia combined, with such a large population and the west investing billions in cheap labor. It’s easy to find an Indian company that can afford a struggling company like Jaguar or Rover, Tata won’t have a problem finding elite Indian engineers amongst 1.2 billion people who will do a second-rate job compared to an average British engineer. Also Tata can easily exploit the 98% of their population for cheap labor. They’ll do the same job as the average Joe would in the west for a fraction of the pay. I cannot think of a single Indian product made in India that was not copied or derived in the west. I hope this sale dose not go through.

— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 5:27:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

"Tata won’t have a problem finding elite Indian engineers amongst 1.2 billion people who will do a second-rate job compared to an average British engineer." -
Considering that most of the high end enginering in the West is done by Indian Engineers that is a stupid statement. As for the term British engineers .. thats like saying "steam engines" . An extinct construct from an era when competition was severly limited.

Tata simply dosent have the brand recognition in the West for people to contemplate what they will do . To amke it simple ...here is an analogy : GoldStar - I am sure most of you dont even remeber its name or phooed phooed it if people said buy its electronics ... despite the fact that it assembled most of the stuff for other brand name manufacturers. Fast forward to today and see if you recognize the new name it goes under - LG.
— izfuney (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 5:59:47 PM | | Votes: -1

A little known fact: India puts out over a million college level graduates a year. Thats a very sizable amount of educated people.
— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 10:23:59 PM | | Votes: 5

But compare it to the amount of people who live in India, and it's nothing at all.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2007 10:29:33 PM | | Votes: 0

so i find it funny that indian students represent less than 1% of california's student population but represent about 10% of all medical students.
— CLK63BlackSeries (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 12:26:05 AM | | Votes: 2

yep. some IGNORANTLY assume ALL indians are inferior just because there are large masses in teeming poverty.

the numbers alone, just about GUARANTEE there are many highly intelligent and skilled Indians.

based on its population China has at least 1000 people as brilliant and successful as Bill Gates.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 9:21:20 AM | | Votes: -1

How about the concept of "Zero", algebra, and most of the mathematics upon which modern engineering is based? Or those Bose speakers? Or the electronics upon which most computers are based (creator of Pentium chip was Indian)? Simple web-search revealed all this. The reason the country of India has not contributed as much to the automotive industry is because the majority of the population cannot afford to drive a vehicle; without demand there is no reason to supply. The majority of vehicles supplied must be cost-effective, and thus cannot support the large R&D expenditures that other world manufacturers utilize to drive sales (where R&D/technology may be a differentiator, as opposed to competition purely based on price).
— Cynical (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 6:37:27 PM | | Votes: 2

Lets face it, nobody is in the running to buy Jag and LR. India's two conglomerqates are interested and I think they can maintain the prestige of the 2 brands and might improve quality at the same time. Ford just mismanaged these brands, otherwise they should be highly competitive. With regards to labor, India has the most number of highly educated graduates working for various corporations around the world. Labor will not be a problem as long as they are trained properly. But I think production will still be maintained in the UK for now. I think.
— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 8:15:46 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Being a Jewish American I consider myself American. I don’t understand why Indians are bragging about their elite 0.5 % of the population educated and living in the west we are talking about Indians in India not California. Even in California for every Indian doctor you still will get 10000 cab drivers and convenience store clears but no construction workers because that’s too physical.

— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 10:03:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Being an Indian American, I consider you a fool. I firmly believe that the massive brain drain going on in India (whereby the engineers/doctors come to the US)is caused by the lack of opportunity domestically (in India). If opportunity is created in the country, then some of the talent may just stay back in India to work there. And, having lived in the Bay Area & Southern California for most of my life (save a few years in NY) I have not seen the cab driver imbalance that you speak of - and most people who are in less esteemed positions may be there because they just need to make money like anyone else. I would like to see how many Jewish Americans are involved in the construction industry, because it's too physical.

Now, over the racism from this affected individual, I think that the Western perception of India as a continuously 3rd world country will severely affect sales. Having worked in the auto industry for a few years, I believe that manufacturing origin has a lot to do with the perceived quality behind a brand, and to be honest, I do not think that the Indian manufacturers have proved themselves as manufacturers of reliable vehicles to overcome the fundamental reliability issues that have plagued Land Rover/Jaguar historically.
— Cynical (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 2:55:10 PM | | Votes: 4

Actually, you fool, Indians living in and educated in India are usually smarter than Indians living in and educated in the west. Every person I know that has taken the USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Exam) and scored uber high went to med school in India. For example, I know some one who practicalled scored a 99% on the exam, compared to friends from here that have scored 75-85. Us Americans just have it way to EZ... Indians in India know what dedication really is, and I can bet they know it a heck of a lot better than any Jewish person on the face of this earth...
— CLK63BlackSeries (View Profile)

Posted on 11/22/2007 1:58:13 AM | | Votes: 1

Oh and btw... my dad used to own and drive ice cream trucks. Now he drives $150k+ cars...
— CLK63BlackSeries (View Profile)

Posted on 11/22/2007 1:59:23 AM | | Votes: 0

practically*
— CLK63BlackSeries (View Profile)

Posted on 11/22/2007 2:00:42 AM | | Votes: 1

There is no need for racist comments here.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/25/2007 2:37:43 AM | | Votes: 1

You can't be form India if you think its only perception that India is a 3rd world country its a fact. I have nothing against Indians as a race but I'm just stating facts about India as a country.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 4:37:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

No - you misunderstood (and I admit that my comment was poorly worded). I believe that the perception is that 3rd world country = poor reliability.
— Cynical (View Profile)

Posted on 11/21/2007 6:28:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Cynical you just proved my point if Indians did discover all you mentioned those discoveries were all done in America NOT INDIA except the concept of "Zero”, which other countries also clam they discovered. Let’s say if Ford was discovered by an Indian American educated in America like the founder of Bose it would not make Ford an Indian company. The smartest and most successful Jews also lived and studied abroad. I have nothing against Jag and Rover being bought by and Indian living in the west but I don't like this idea of Tata buying the manufacturers to bolster it image at the expense of Jag and Rover.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 11/23/2007 2:44:42 AM | | Votes: 1

it doesnt make sense at all for a indian car company that makes the cheapest car ever to buy these prestigious luxury brand at all. imagine the world associating land rover to... TATA. how odd can that be? and if mahindra wants technology of land rover for their SUV..guess what..their car cant handle the technology of land rover. and besides making presence using jag and lR wont help the image of their indian cars.
— arcy (View Profile)

Posted on 11/22/2007 6:37:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Hey everyone. Just for the record. I have been fighting the good fight against ENN Norak for over a year. He says the dumbest most uneducated things. In fact he is by far the stupidest person on AutoSpies. Thats saying a lot I know.

From now on I am just going to save my breath. He is a completely uninformed boob.

Just ignore him and he will go away. I will. Who will join me?
— Jagexpert2 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/23/2007 5:15:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

It seems like a few Westerners are still grappling with the realities of living in a global economy, one they created. It makes no sense for any company, American, European, or Indian, to pay five times the wages for the same talent. So this process is going to continue. It's tough for the engineer that can't re-tool themselves, and has spent their entire life in a first world lifestyle. For the third world engineer, their quality of life will improve, until the next cheapest guy is there to take their job away.

The freemarket is working wonderfully, and that is all that this shows. Get used to it, or be obsolete in 5 years :)
— aiyer (View Profile)

Posted on 6/29/2008 9:19:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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Indian firms buying Jaguar and Land Rover doesn't make sense

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