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Insideline compares the BMW M3 with the Audi RS4 cab, R8, 911 GT3 and Golf GTI

GermanNut submitted on 08/13/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 3:01 PM
from: www.edmunds.com

[45] user comments | category: Spy Shots

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Tags: Audi, RS4, cabriolet, R8, BMW, M3, Volkswage, Golf, GTI

Tag Links: Audi, RS4, cabriolet, R8, BMW, M3, Volkswage, Golf, GTI

Insideline compares the BMW M3 with the Audi RS4 cab, R8, 911 GT3 and Golf GTI

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M35MT - 8/13/2007 4:47:54 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

so, what...M3 versus a bunch of VW's?

Without even reading anything, I'd guess that the 911 came out on top.

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IamEvilHomer - 8/14/2007 12:37:38 AM

+3 Boost

i need to avoit your post germannut

IamEvilHomer - 8/14/2007 12:02:36 PM

+3 Boost

aviod

IamEvilHomer - 8/14/2007 12:03:03 PM

+3 Boost

lol avoid

damn brain

minimalist - 8/13/2007 5:03:57 PM

+2 Boost

"One: This is not a comparison test."

i found it funny reading the first sentence of the linked article as provided above after opening this thread due to its very title mentioning a comparison and reading germannut's opening sentence about how insideline did a comparison. lol.

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SevorbeupstryIsBack - 8/13/2007 5:15:30 PM

+2 Boost

Nice photos

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JRobUSC - 8/13/2007 5:41:00 PM

+2 Boost

incidentally InsideLine did NOT say the RS4 outhandled the M3, as GermanNut is misrepresenting. They said the STEERING, specifically directly off center, was better in the Audi. That's been a common statement with most of the reviews of the new M3, that the Servotronic steering (which I'm hoping they make optional when the car is released in the U.S.) is numb off center. They've also said it's great everywhere else, however.

Since we're getting caught up in "apples to apples" with this "comparison", there will also be an M3 sedan. That is "apples to apples" compared to the RS4, even though the M3 sedan will likely be $8k or more less expensive than the RS4 sedan. Regardless the M3 coupe is not the competitor, it'll compete with the RS5. Anyone who is familair with recent 3-series BMW's knows the sedans are more rigid than the coupes and actually handle better. You buy the coupe for style, the sedan for performance. I'm glad to see BMW is bringing back the M3 sedan.

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SevorbeupstryIsBack - 8/14/2007 1:25:58 PM

0 Boost

"incidentally InsideLine did NOT say the RS4 outhandled the M3, as GermanNut is misrepresenting. They said the STEERING, specifically directly off center, was better in the Audi. That's been a common statement with most of the reviews of the new M3, that the Servotronic steering (which I'm hoping they make optional when the car is released in the U.S.) is numb off center. They've also said it's great everywhere else, however."

Exactly. Finally someone with brains.

minimalist - 8/13/2007 5:51:37 PM

+3 Boost

"More disturbing than the stability control was the warning that flashed up on the iDrive screen after just 12 miles of fast driving. Transmission temperature was escalating, so the M5 announced that it was taking matters into its own circuits by reducing engine output. The redline then steadily crept down. And down. By the time we got fed up and pulled over to let it cool, the redline had dropped to 6,000. Apparently the manual transmission just doesn't have the cooling capacity to deal with 500 hp.

Suddenly any notions you might have of flinging the BMW M5 around a local road circuit at a track day turn to vapor. Apparently the Germans are unaware that track days are pretty common in America, and that a BMW M5 driver is just the sort of guy who knows this."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=119784

its unfortunate seeing bmw lose its title as best maker of sport coupes and sedans. the audi's rs4, its top-of-the-line, lowest-end model, has consistently beat bmw's most current highest performing models such as the new m5 and new m3. in the insideline comparison, the rs4 beat the m5 due to its sheer involvement despite its poorer numbers. the rs4 was also preferred over the new m3. bmw currently has no other models to compete with audi's lowest model and this considers that audi also has its higher end models such as the rs5, rs6 & rs8. audi must be smiling.

audi currently has all the right ingredients: involvement, performance & luxury.

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Threepoint1415926 - 8/13/2007 9:13:30 PM

+1 Boost

This isnt news. BMW themselves said that the carryover 6-speed was only because of American demand from drivers to "row their own boat." The manual fails to meet the needs of the new engine. The SMGII was specifically designed for the new M5's engine dynamics and output. It does everything quicker than the old 6 speed from lap times to quatermiles... I understand old farts get caught in nostalgia sometimes but c'mon...

henbmw - 8/13/2007 10:19:53 PM

0 Boost

Well, not exactly. You see, these comparos might be great for the automotive community but in terms of pure numbers, they won't sway the buying power of the general populace all that much.

In other words, people will continue to buy the M3 at huge numbers whether one magazine thinks the RS4 is better or not. The negative aspects they mention about the new M3 are really just traits that are more palpable towards the average driver. The models Audi builds that extend upwards are merely halo cars sold in limited numbers, barely cars that will turn the tables on the current state of affairs in this market.

Bottom line, Audi is doing great work in the sports car arena but they seem to be forgetting that their bread and butter is the A4, A3 and so on. If they don't start selling many more of these models, you can say bye this possibly short-lived pool of brilliant sports-cars.

BMW will continue to smile because they still hold the lead by a margin on this market, not to mention others.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/14/2007 12:40:46 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Hmm... hen, I don't think anyone sells a $60K sports coupe (M3) in "huge numbers." It may sell more than the RS4 and C-Class AMG, but that's not saying much at all. It is still a halo car, after all.

And what you said about the A3, A4, etc..? All of their "bread-and-butter" cars are superb, some serving for different functions. My A3 2.0T is a riot, with its super-quick transmission and great turbo four. It's quite easily faster than my old A6 2.7T, which, in its time, was fast in its own right. And for $30K! A4 has slightly less fun, but is still a fantastic all-rounder that can carry your friends with comfort and speed, in style. You know the rest.

Audi may not be hugely successful in the US, but they are still improving, and I just don't think the US is their focus right now. I believe they will sell more cars in China than in America this year, and they are still leading in many parts of Europe. It's strange that their sales are so skewed, but that's just the way it is. I'm actually glad my car isn't ubiquitous. I don't care how many cars they sell- there's an element of kinship in owing a nice Audi that just isn't there with an M BMW, because, as you said, they sell in "huge numbers."

henbmw - 8/14/2007 10:59:51 AM

0 Boost

You seem to have missed the point S4. Your opinion on the A4 and A3 Audi's is great to hear but not at all on topic. When compared to 3-series sales and general opinion; Audi has some huge catching up to do. The Auto journalists seem to agree because many comparisons either leave out the A4 up against the 3-series, or it fails to hold up when compared.
If you don't believe me here are some examples:

edmunds- 330i vs A4

"Honestly, as wonderful as both cars are, choosing between the two wasn't as hard as we thought it would be. The BMW proved to be superior in nearly every way."

Motortrend-

1st- 330i
2nd- g35
3rd- A4

c&d-

...
4th- Acura TL
5th- A4

And because Audi sells more A4's then any of their other models, they rely strongly on it for a good source of income for their other projects; just like any other car company. If Audi wants to increase their market share then they need to vastly improve the A4 and its market niche. If anything, China will be the best market to sell A4's and A3's, however, a car won't sell if there is clearly a more appealing one for a similar price.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/14/2007 11:51:50 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

You must know, though, that Audi produces better AWD vehicles than BMW. The A4 2.0T quattro has been lauded as "more fun/sportier" than the 325xi/328xi.

I don't think the A4 is "far behind," as you stated. Keep in mind that it's five years old and will be replaced next year- B8 A4 is coming to Frankfurt in September. It will be one of many that claim to give the 3 Series a run for its money. Who comes out on top remains to be seen.

IamEvilHomer - 8/14/2007 12:06:17 PM

+1 Boost

henbmw the A4 is in the last year of a 7 year cycle
the bmw is in the 1st

the new a4 looks hot and the current A4 is doing just fine

Motortrend wants to have BMW's baby anyway
C&D come on

henbmw - 8/14/2007 4:01:41 PM

0 Boost

False.

The edmunds test was about the B7 which was a new 2005 model. As was the MotorTrend test. And the C&D one. As for your idiotic assertion that both MotorTrend and and C&D have a BMW bias, well, you have to have the cognitive ability of a 10 year old to somehow believe this. I don't know how many times I have posted examples of comparisons showing that C&D does like the 3-series but is in to way biased towards the BMW brand. And I don't think they are the first and only to like the 3-series.

JRobUSC - 8/14/2007 7:27:53 PM

+1 Boost

"More disturbing than the stability control was the warning that flashed up on the iDrive screen after just 12 miles of fast driving. Transmission temperature was escalating, so the M5 announced that it was taking matters into its own circuits by reducing engine output. The redline then steadily crept down. And down. By the time we got fed up and pulled over to let it cool, the redline had dropped to 6,000. Apparently the manual transmission just doesn't have the cooling capacity to deal with 500 hp."

Minimalist, the article you referenced is outdated now, as all 2008 M5 sticks now have the updated stability control programming that alleviates all the issues you mentioned. You can also fully defeat the traction control and drive the car as wildly as you want now. And to top it off, all the previous year M5's will have a programming update available in September that accomplishes the same thing for them.

Lemantech - 9/15/2007 4:11:19 PM

+1 Boost

lol henBMW..the B7 A4 is pretty much a normal B6 with a different bodykit and engine....the new a4 is completey changes.

henbmw - 8/13/2007 6:07:11 PM

0 Boost

what the hell is the gti doing in there

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Will_ - 8/13/2007 7:16:41 PM

+4 Boost

I've been doing my best to hype up BMW and their trademark magic feel for years now, and just like that, they forget to include it on their most important model?!?! BMW what were you thinking?

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EnnNorak - 8/13/2007 7:44:55 PM

0 Boost

Don't hype up the BMW brand. Use your influence to get BMW to put more rear leg room into its 3- and 5-series, stop charging extra for paint, and install proper side strips to protect doors from parking lot door dings. Oh, I almost forgot, BMW also needs to get rid of that stupid iDrive -- looks to me like they are just too stubborn to admit that the iDrive was a mistake.

Kinger - 8/14/2007 8:25:52 AM

+2 Boost

I-Drive is a mistake because you think it is? Ask the majority of people who own an I-Drive equipped BMW and they'll tell you how they like I-Drive. Sure its had its fair share of criticism but only from journalists who haven'y had enough time with the car to learn how to use it properly.

And we get it!! You have a fondness for "side strips to protect doors from parking lot door dings", which in todays land of big SUV's don't offer a whole lot of protection.

richardp996 - 8/13/2007 7:52:55 PM

+1 Boost

Glad to see the GT3 do the business.

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MunichRob - 8/13/2007 9:29:19 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

GermanNut it also proves your starting to sound more & more like a badge whore. You try & sound like your for Audi but not totally biased, but we all know your motives are to indeed make BMW look like it's lost it's way. Blah, blah, the RS4 would have won if it were this or if it had that, Edmunds is such a terrible source.

They don't conduct tests properly, their numbers are always all over the place (Usually very conservative), not to mention these are the same people who said the LS out handles a 7-series & countless other ridiculous remarks alike.

Since a couple of mediocre reviews have been released regarding the M3, certain die hard Audi fans such as yourself have jumped on the opportunity to make it look like the RS4 has shamed the M3.

This is the exact same thing that when on with the S5, poor mediocre reviews at first from nobody's in the auto industry, then miraculously Car & Driver, Motor Trend & so on gave the car great reviews.

Once again this segment is about performance, not driving the kids to school in comfort. You want a fast but more refined 3-series coupe, that’s what the 335i is for. I bought a 650i over an M6 strictly because I wanted to have a car that I could cruise in as well as drive fast. M6 drivers however don’t want that compromise & especially not M3 drivers, which is why the M3 outperforms the RS4 & will most likely win all the upcoming comparo tests from the sources that really matter.

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S4cabriofoxone - 8/14/2007 12:45:50 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

See, though, you're doing the same thing! This is what gets me: your last line. "...from sources that really matter." I'm guessing that your implication is that the sources that "matter" would OBVIOUSLY pick the BMW. Well, sorry, but you're wrong. Five years ago, BMW was in a league of its own. The others couldn't even come close in terms of driving appeal and dynamics.

However, times have changed. It's a toss-up. The RS4 blew the press away with its E46-slaying performance and 911-equalling handling. Not only that, but it didn't sacrifice comfort. The new C63 AMG seems to be doing exactly the same thing. BMW had better get back to the drawing board if they want to stay on top; from what I've read, the answer isn't as clear as it once was. The M3 just isn't that amazing any more. To most drivers, it is; with the C63 and RS4/RS5 looming in its rear view, to those who are educated, it isn't.

JRobUSC - 8/14/2007 8:31:20 AM

0 Boost

the RS4 is a great car, but "911-equaling handling"? Maybe if the 911 has four flat tires. You have a gift for hyperbole my friend.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/15/2007 2:47:08 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Care to read Road & Track's "RS4 vs. C4S" article? They said something like, "...the RS4 genuinely blurs the line between sports sedan and sports car."

JRobUSC - 8/15/2007 12:14:34 PM

+2 Boost

it might "blur the lines" between sports car and sedan but isn't that what the RS4 is supposed to do? Lots of sedans do that.

RS4 .88g skidpad, 68.9mph slalom
335i .90g skidpad, 68.7mph slalom
911 Carrera 4S .96g skidpad, 71.5mph slalom
911 Carrera S .98g skidpad, 71.7mph slalom

See the difference between the Porsches and those "line blurring" sport sedans? The RS4, 335i, etc. are great, but at the end of the day they still aren't Porsches, no matter what you tell yourself.

GermanNut - 8/13/2007 9:47:35 PM

+3 Boost

MunichRob, BMW has lost its way. When did you ever read that the E46 M3 suffered from poorer steering directly off-center when compared to the Audi RS4???

It shows that Audi has gained some of BMW's magic for driver involvement, once again is stated of doing a better interpretation of a luxury interior when compared to the M3 and has performance to back up its claims and RS standing.

I just can't help but think BMW won't win all the upcoming comparison tests. Sure, the BMW M3 is sharper than the Audi RS4 as a driver's tool. What the new BMW M3 is not is a raw, performance-oriented driver thrilling machine that outhandles the competition in every which way.

Face it, with the RS4 Audi has brought serious firepower to the segment. BMW was expected to raise the bar even higher just like they did with the E46, but with a V8 engine, added weight and a lack of involvement for the driver....BMW has not succeeded with this new M3 the way it was expected to.

Autoexpress and Autocar have clearly seen that as they placed the RS4 ahead of the M3. Evo magazine which put the BMW M3 in first, did so with only the smallest margin of victory and they explicitly mentioned that it was nothing like the complete walkover the E46 M3 enjoyed over the very same Audi known as the RS4.



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investor27 - 8/13/2007 10:07:34 PM

-1 Boost

Wow. The Audi RS4 is so good, they went and used the RS4 (a sedan) and compared it to the new M3 (a 2-door coupe). It's too bad the RS4 is so expensive. If it were the same price as the new M3, everyone will be an Audi RS4 owner.

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GermanNut - 8/13/2007 10:31:59 PM

+2 Boost

They used an RS4 cabriolet. The car is signicantly more expensive than the M3 coupe (about 25K more) and is less rigid and less focused.

Now Insideline does mention that if they used the RS4 sedan, it would have won against the BMW M3.



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MunichRob - 8/14/2007 12:30:36 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Fine fair enough, the RS4 has indeed closed the gap to miniscule proportions, but you still can't say it's the better sports car, because it's simply not.

I still don't agree however with your claim that BMW has lost it's way. They've had one major icon failure IMO, & that's the current M5. The new M3 clearly is a better car than the E46, it's faster through the corners, has a more powerful higher revving engine, sounds better & IMO looks better.

To say it is a step backwards is unfair, to say it's a small step forward is more accurate.

I do agree however that BMW didn't live up to the hype with this new M3 as it did with E46. The E46 was a car that almost put the E36 to shame & everyone was expecting history to repeat itself. However there's only so far engineering can take a car that’s equipped with all the modern day luxury goodies, thus the reason for the CSL which I believe will be coming to the States this time around.

What I’m saying is BMW hasn’t lost it’s way, the others are just catching up, everybody’s noticing & applauding them so much for finally doing what BMW’s been doing. Mabye not on the luxury side of the equation, but no doubt on the driving side.

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S4cabriofoxone - 8/14/2007 12:53:06 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

"...the RS4 has indeed closed the gap to miniscule proportions..."

Again, your bias is shining. You're too stubborn! Can't you be a real car guy and accept the truth? When the M3 was better, I knew it. The E46 was a phenomenal machine, one that easily out-handled and out-dragged all of its competition. There were three reasons for why I didn't buy it: the image, the RWD and the engine. The image, you ask? If I had bought it, I would just look like another nondescript 40-50 year old guy in an M3. It's a relatively popular car, and something of a cliché. RWD is obvious. I wanted a car that could get through the winter without any worrying. Engine... the S4's V8 is intoxicating. The inline six couldn't match up- I don't care about the numbers.

Anyway.

I don't know if either of us can say for sure whether the E92 M3 is a better sports car. I don't think you've driven the RS4, and neither of us have driven the new M3, so we can't really compare. To say "it's simply not" is just ridiculous. BMW has taken a small step forward, as you said, but Audi and Mercedes-Benz have both taken giant leaps. Think about it. The only way BMW can go from here is down.

1evlaudi - 8/14/2007 1:16:14 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I have to say that this is an interesting "review" from edmunds. It seems to me, reading in between the lines that Audi is becoming a benchmark in sports car. It is known for the benchmark in quality and fit and finish but, I think that soon enough Audi will be the benchmark of the luxury sport import, period. It does semms that BMW is going down hill a little bit as far as sport goes, it seems also that Porsche has lost a little bit of its edge, with the Turbo too. Too soft, too civilized, could it be because of the american market and its drivers? Is marketing building the cars now? Can we assume Audi is not listening the marketing guys, because the US is not that important and they built their cars the way they want them to be, the engineers, the haptic team, the designers build Audis, not the marketing boys and not the pennies counters.

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MunichRob - 8/14/2007 1:26:44 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

S4 regularly I'm not so stubborn, on this subject, maybe a little. I will be a real car guy however & stick with the M3, because while some have said the RS4's the better car, they haven't said it's the better athlete. As far as I'm concerned that's the winning factor in this segment.

So your right I shouldn't say the M3 is simply the better sports car, but I will say from what I've seen & heard, it does have the edge on the performance side of things. The M3 posted RS4 like numbers in the C&D test which was done under wet conditions.

As far as pure driving pleasure goes on a track, Mercedes is still a little ways off, I don't think they're trying to outdo BMW at what they do like Audi is.

So I've thought about it, & I don't see how down is the only way BMW can go from here.

reply to this comment

M53R - 8/14/2007 1:08:12 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Thank you. You have saved me alot of time.

S4, yes both the RS4 and C63 have taken giants leaps but remember its easier to improve whats bad than to improve what's great. You should wait for the REAL comparision tests.

S4cabriofoxone - 8/15/2007 2:50:36 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

"Bad?" I don't think the previous RS4, nor the C55 AMG, were "bad" cars. Neither handled as well as the M3, I'll give you that. I can see where you're coming from (huge % increases mean nothing with small sales from the start), but the two current sedans from Ingolstadt and Stuttgart seem to be every bit as good as the new M3. The RS4 and C63 AMG have received rave reviews, but sadly enough, M3's have been underwhelming. I don't know if it's just "relatively" underwhelming or not, but considering how good the 335i coupe is to drive, the M3 should be more impressive. Now, it seems to be an also-ran.

richardp996 - 8/14/2007 7:57:54 AM

0 Boost

You dudes have too much time on your hands.

reply to this comment

LexSucks - 8/14/2007 9:51:49 AM

0 Boost

which fool would choose any of those cars over a Lexus IS350? The IS350 handles better than any car there and is almost as fast as the M3. Not to mention more reliable.

reply to this comment

Kinger - 8/14/2007 11:01:10 AM

0 Boost

</sarcasm>

4x4rules - 8/20/2007 3:54:04 PM

+1 Boost

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

4x4rules - 8/20/2007 3:55:14 PM

+1 Boost

yeah........... when i retire

bmwpowerf1 - 8/15/2007 8:48:34 AM

+1 Boost

have any of you driven an e92 M3. so?

reply to this comment

SMA8L - 9/13/2007 11:51:19 AM

+1 Boost

http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/64201.phtml

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