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Is A Natural Gas Powered Car In Your Future?
Texas oil billionaire T. Boone Pickens proposes a massive switch to natural gas as a transportation fuel and a boost in wind power in a plan aimed at reducing U.S. foreign oil dependence by a more than a third.

 "U.S. natural gas can replace foreign oil. It's the only natural resource we have that can do that," Pickens said during a press event for the release of his energy plan.

The 10-year plan would reduce the U.S. annual oil import bill of $700 billion, at oil prices of $140 a barrel, by hundreds of billions of dollars, he said.

Earlier this year, Pickens announced he would spend $10 billion to build the world's biggest wind farm in Texas that should start generating power by 2011.

When asked if his plan is a way to ensure his investments would him even richer, the 80-year-old billionaire said he's not concerned about making still more money.

In the United States, use of natural-gas-powered vehicles is limited mostly to commercial and municipal fleets.
Is A Natural Gas Powered Car In Your Future?



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BremboBrembo - 7/14/2008 3:59:06 PM
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At 80 years old, he's not think about money much. More like leaving a legacy where his name would be mention in the history book.

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Agent009Agent009 - 7/14/2008 4:11:54 PMView My AgentSpace
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More the reason to throw a ton of money into mix


BremboBrembo - 7/14/2008 4:28:26 PM
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People with a lot of money are more concern with immortality than more money.


Agent009Agent009 - 7/14/2008 4:31:46 PMView My AgentSpace
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Actually neither Hybrid or Diesel are the real answers. This is an alternative is easy to make and is proven.

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GreenPleaseGreenPlease - 7/14/2008 8:25:36 PM
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The range problem with NGVs will soon be addressed. A new storage method known as absorbed natural gas (ANG) should be ready for mass market in the next few years. This technology will allow tanks of the same volume to operate at the same pressure yet hold 2-3x more gas.

ANG tanks are made of carbon with tons of micro pores. The pores are small enough that when natural gas enters the tank the pores actually "suck" the gas in. I've heard some people explain that van-der-waal forces actually cause the NG to liquefy.

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GreenPleaseGreenPlease - 7/14/2008 8:30:31 PM
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Also, notice that Picken's plan is not to increase our NG consumption. Instead, he proposes that we stop using NG for power production (we get 20% of our electricity from NG) and instead use it in our cars.

I wouldn't be too worried about NG prices. What you see in the news is the spot price (~$13). Very little spot gas trades hands because natural gas is difficult to transport. Most NG sells at a contract rate (range is between $5-11 in the U.S. depends on the market) as most markets are hostage to a single pipeline and therefore provider.

Unlike oil, the U.S. has significant conventional natural gas deposits and even more in the form of coal bed methane. I recently did an article on my blog, energy scenario, that outlines a plan for us to replace 5% of our NG usage with cow farts. Seriously. Argentina could offset its entire NG consumption with cow farts (a cow produces 25-35 cubic feet/day of methane depending on a range of factors).

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kut17kut17 - 7/14/2008 4:21:04 PMView My AgentSpace
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My dad's natural gas company has a whole fleet of Civic GXs. The problem with natural gas vehicles is that if everyone drove one, natural gas prices would rise and people would have a hard time affording to heat their houses. I say that drilling for oil in North America or hydrogen cars are the best way to go.

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BremboBrembo - 7/14/2008 4:32:37 PM
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Well more people will then drive cars with gasoline which drives the price higher. What's the different. Plus we're talking about 20-30 years before we can use the oil drill and that just prolong the current problem of oil price.

Oh but yeah...let our children handle the problem when they grow up. Good plan!


kut17kut17 - 7/14/2008 4:49:25 PMView My AgentSpace
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Yeah, gasoline prices are already high, do you want to drive natural gas prices up too? That's why i said drill for oil or use hydrogen cars. hydrogen cars are a possibility, you know.


cdokecdoke - 7/14/2008 5:39:42 PMView My AgentSpace
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Hydrogen cars are a possibility, but are not going to help with your scenario of rising natural gas prices due to increased use.

They get the hydrogen by stripping it off of the carbon chains in natural gas. They don't use electrolysis because it is, from a thermodynamics standpoint, a fundamentally inefficient process. The only place that using such a setup makes any sense, is when you have abundant clean energy than you can essentially waste. It requires more energy to get hydrogen from water, then you get out of the hydrogen you have just created- energy has to go into breaking the chemical bonds. You are literally refining the fuel back out of the emissions- water is combusted hydrogen.

You know, here is the thing about the whole deal- anyone who claims to have a single solution to a manifold problem is a fool.

The solution path that maximizes value and minimize costs to society is the path that at first uses the most current infrastructure. Pursuing technologies before they are truly needed destroys value to society. We are not at the point where the entire infrastructure needs re-done. That point will never happen- the infrastructure will be re-done slowly as needed- as the market supports.


EL34EL34 - 7/14/2008 5:24:53 PM
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"Is A Natural Gas Powered Car In Your Future?"

No, we need to drill the hell out of country for oil and give the rest of the world the middle finger.

:-/

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truckmentruckmen - 7/14/2008 7:29:07 PM
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I believe that hybrid teck is the way to go, and no I wouldn't suggest the latest Prius is the ultimate hybrid because they are not efficient as they can be. There is way better teck available! Unfortunately the prius is the best that you can buy now. Natural gas requires a huge gas tank with little range, and yes if we all went to natural gas the price would sky rocket!

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LexSucksLexSucks - 7/14/2008 8:17:49 PM
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Why doesn't someone figure out how to power a car off of urine?

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holmstarholmstar - 7/15/2008 10:15:56 AMView My AgentSpace
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urine is essentially just water.


enp83enp83 - 7/14/2008 8:52:25 PM
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http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativefuels/articles/107354/article.html

While purchasing natural gas at a filling station cost her $2.10 per gallon, filling her tank through the Phill (home installed NG compressor) costs only $1 per gallon — the lowest per-gallon price of any available vehicle fuel available to general consumers. Combine that with her average fuel consumption of around 40 mpg, and Raymond is ecstatic.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=116833

There is one alternative to the hunt for pumps: the Phill home refueling appliance, made by FuelMaker. Installed in the garage or on an outside wall, it hooks into your home's natural-gas line. Attaching the pump to the car for an overnight refill will save roughly $1 per gallon equivalent compared to the CNG pump price, which averaged $1.90 nationally in June — compare that to gasoline prices, which continue to hover close to $3/gallon.(written in 2006)

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CBOTGuyCBOTGuy - 7/14/2008 11:47:33 PM
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What many of you don't realize is that the future of transportation fuels is not a zero-sum game. A variety of fuels/power sources are necessary. No one single source will dominate: electric, natural gas/CNG, and second-gen biofuels (advanced biodiesel and cellulosic) will all be required to meet the world's transport fuel demand. If fleet/bus operators start switching en masse to NGVs, that leaves more fuel for the rest of the market. NGVs and electric will be perfected for city-dwellers and people who don't need a lot of range. Second gen biofuels, I believe notably biodiesel, will become increasing important and efficient for long-range truckers and people who want a more traditional driving experience. I think GTL diesel, which is essentially diesel derived from liquified natural gas may play an especially interesting role as well, particulary as worldwide diesel demand is surging, but partly because many foreign countries can't run their power plants on natural gas, so they use diesel or fuel oil instead. Anyway, I think we should be open-minded and realize that they are a myriad of solutions available. Not all are perfect, not all will be viable, but there are solutions and some of the smartest people in science, energy, and technology are working on them.

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chewychewy - 7/15/2008 12:47:00 AMView My AgentSpace
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Natural gas/this guy's plan makes sense. The natural gas powered Civic does lose about 20 horsepower in the conversion IIRC.

The most efficient way to move stuff is with boats, then trains. Anything that you can move on a train (an electric train is even better) beats a truck. Of course you would need a truck for the final delivery. But a train is a much smarter solution for long range.

Even the less efficient diesel train beats a semi by a mile. A single locomotive with 4,000 or so horsepower (about 8 semis worth of power) can pull many times over the load of 8 semis.

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SteveLSteveL - 7/15/2008 3:48:50 PM
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Why aren’t we using natural gas cars, why hasn’t the government stepped up and said this is the way to go? Money that’s why. It’s as simple and greedy as that. There are billions and billions of dollars tied up in the oil industry and all the political crap to go along with it. Why do we keep buying oil from places like Iran? Money and politics. If we did not by oil from Iran somebody else would and then Iran would have no reason to keep from starting a war with Israel and terrorizing the US and other countries. It’s a way to keep Iran and other like counties in check. Believe what you want but that is the truth. Back to NG. It’s true it is very abundant. In fact here in Eugene Oregon there are more than two natural gas wells inside the boundary of our airport that are just sitting there caped and not getting used. Basically we are taking it in the rear and the typical American without a lot of money is the ones getting it the hardest. There is more than enough NG to tap into and it would last hundreds of years. We need to demand that we start using it and we need to demand that we not get screwed with higher gas bills if you want this NG to work. The only people that are going to make this NG work are the typical American consumer.

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CBOTGuyCBOTGuy - 7/15/2008 9:09:42 PM
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Hey Steve,

You better get your facts straight. We don't buy oil from Iran (no American refineries are allowed to purchase it, and American-based trading firms are not allowed to trade w/Iran. Remember Marc Rich?). But the rest of the world does, including foreign refiners in China and India. Bottom line is that oil is global commodity, even if we don't buy from Iran -- somebody else will. Also, what you don't realize is that the bigger holders of natural gas are, surprise, oil companies! BP, Exxon, Shell, Conoco, own more natural gas than oil. Oil and gas are often produced from the same fields. The only reason oil companies are not so quick to embrace NGVs or GTL diesel is because it would make the oil the hold worth less, and consequently, while they enjoy an already plum margin on the natural gas they own and trade. Remember, natural gas prices have risen along with crude. In fact, many analysts are predicting that it is too cheap relative to crude! Anyway, I could go off on a tangent...but I do agree that I think natural gas is too good a fuel to simply stick below boilers. Then again, many second and third world countries use diesel and fuel oil for power generation and heat, so who am I to say...


SteveLSteveL - 7/16/2008 1:50:14 PM
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Thanks CBOTGuy. I guess that’s what I get for reading articles out of the typical news organizations and not looking into it further. Maybe they where just saying the Iran are just one of the biggest suppliers to OPEC? You make some good points but I thought that one of the goals was to stop getting our fuel from other countries? Also, I know a company has got to make a profit but in my opinion fuel is not the same thing as selling throw rugs and Batman toys. Fuel is not a convenience item. Most people have to buy it to go about there daily lives. It’s like food. You have to have it. Now, some could argue that there are other alternatives to gas and driving around in a car but in reality most people have cars and you have to get to work, take you're kids to school, appointments etc and with that point I don’t think it should be treated like other goods and services. Let me be clear, I hate the government interfering with business and I think the government should limit there influence as much as possible but fuel is a different story. When gas goes up over %200 in a short period of time you know what’s going to happen and we have seen what it has done to the economy. The price of fuel pretty much affects everything we do from filling up our gas tank to buying things made out of oil and food grown using gas to power the farm equipment and ship it to the stores. Millions of Americans have had to re-budget there lives in order to afford to put gas in there tank and eat and we have all had to do this in a very short time span and many of us that where getting by just fine before are now barely getting by. Because of this the government needs to step in and do something and yes there are things they can do even though they will not admit it. Like I said, I hate having the government so involved but this is a way more serious then the stupid Republicans and Democrats realize and things need to be done and quickly before things get worse.
This is just my opinion so try not to get to personnel if anybody responds to this.


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