Lexus considering ultra-luxury brand to rival Rolls-Royce

Not funny. Rolls-Royce and Bentley should be scared.

How many people woould love to have to most advance V12 engine in they world? Worlds first V12 Hybrid, and the Cleanest V12 engine in the world. And yet reliable....

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 5:50:02 PM | | Votes: -17   

There are aspects in which Lexus can compete with top luxury automobiles. Soundproofing of the cabin, for instance.

Noise inside the car at 70 mph:

Lexus LS600h L: 58.9 dB [1]
Rolls-Royce Phantom: 59 dB [2]
Bentley Continental Flying Spur: 65 dB [3]

However, the non-hybrid version performs significantly worse. Which would suggest the LS600h L is so heavy partially due to better insulation.

[1] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=120486/pageId=122610
[2] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=108933/pageId=68143
[3] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109001/pageId=68259

— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 6:41:00 PM | | Votes: -3   

Have Lexus ever made an-Unreliable engine? Stop the BS.

It's advance because Lexus is the first to spend millions on inventing a Lexus LS 650h World's First 5.0 V12 Hybrid 2 Electric motors 500hp all-wheel drive, with Toyota's next generation Hybrid Technology

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 6:57:53 PM | | Votes: -9   

So your calling Americans cheap?

Bill Ford and Alan Mullally flying in corporate jets and Wall Street may not think so. If we was cheap and Lexus was cheap US wouldn't be in the predicament they're in now.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:02:40 PM | | Votes: -10   

Post went to the wrong person.

But it's funny how you say Lexus engines are so un-reliable and JD Power, Consumer Reports, and Auto Wards Best Engines thinks otherwise.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:16:30 PM | | Votes: -6   

very funny indeed. and i am sure you said that 20 years ago when lexus first launched.

— ghosthunter (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 8:49:22 PM | | Votes: 0   

TheLanciaFan.

Your parents are losers, tell them to take the bus where they don't have to worry about maintainance. No Toyota or Lexus engine catches fire by itself unless it was abused and/or neglected. The fact that you're here means you got banned from clublexus for spewing out too much crap about Lexus on a Lexus lovers site.

And yes, lexus has done the impossible. Since day one to this day, their vehicles are still more refined, more reliable, offers unmatched services, and more quiet than any other maker in the history of the automobile. It's one thing to study the competition, but it's another thing to be able to do it better. 20yrs later, the Euros are still reliable, poor service, over priced.

Lexus did not under priced their cars to gain market shares, Toyota is just used to building superior vehicles and not over charging like what the europeans have been doing. They were just being themselves. You wouldn't know that because you're so used to getting screwed and starts to defend your pimps. Lexus success came from their loyal Toyota customers who didn't want to over pay for less. Toyota is not stupid enough to hand over their customers to the euros when those folks starts to reach their peak earning years and not have something better waiting for them.

— Badgewhore (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 3:23:36 AM | | Votes: -8   

April Fool's comes early

— VISO (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2009 10:34:08 PM | | Votes: 2   

Why don't you want it to be a stretch Camry? The Camry has proven to be a versatile platform for many differently marketed vehicles. It will be perfection to have a V12 or bigger engine along with hybrid (or whatever happens to be the trendy drivetrain du jour) driving the front wheels. That will leave the floor nice and flat. It's about time they jump in along side the big boys with something Big, Long and Extended. They could pitch it with the LFA as the LFA-BLE TRD. Just don't try to pronounce it.

— NannerPus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 6:59:06 PM | | Votes: 1   

And you don't have brains if you cannot see prestige in a Lexus.

Pestige is what builds up a foundation of time and history. Lexus has accomplish what no other automaker has in only 20 years in the making.

Lexus is a Phanomenon.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 6:03:58 PM | | Votes: -11   

Spoil or not Spoil. They still did the impossible in only 20 years.

Incredible.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:06:46 PM | | Votes: -11   

I think the people who could afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a car would want to buy something like this EVEN MORE in a faltering economy, just to reassure themselves that they were safe.

— cococo (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 5:07:35 PM | | Votes: 3   

Bimmermike, that's not me you are quoting.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 1:13:19 AM | | Votes: -3   

Billions of people don't even know what a Maybach is. Bad Marketing. Everyone knows Lexus. Lexus will never fail.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 5:52:31 PM | | Votes: -10   

Maybach sold about 130 cars last year world wide, heck if that. So you tell me how many billions of people heard of Maybach or how often they see one on the road.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:09:54 PM | | Votes: -9   

Not sure if you read the news but we may not see Maybach next year.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:48:04 PM | | Votes: -7   

+ many. Lolls Loyce and Wolls Woyce. Too funny. You guys get the best posts of the day!

Also, for the little ilexus freak, Lexus only does well in the US. Lexus can barely sell one car in Europe. How the hell is a super luxury toyolexus brand going to fare in Europe and China, now more important markets than the US? You are delusional to think that in these markets or even th US, they would fare better than Bently or Rolls. I mean Lexus got outsold in Europe in 2008 by Audi and Mercedes, and BMW like a whooping 20 to 1 by the big true global premium brands. Get serious!

— VISO (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 10:33:55 PM | | Votes: 5   

the figure is somewhere between 13 and 15, i think.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 5:40:11 PM | | Votes: 7   

but they saw sales increase 70%!!!

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 5:40:47 PM | | Votes: 6   

Sales of luxury cars in Europe

Format: 2007 sales, 2006 sales, change in %, 2007 marketshare

1. Mercedes S............. 21744 | 25321 |. -14,1% | 41,9%
2. Audi A8................ 10225 | 10913 |.. -6,3% | 19,7%
3. BMW 7................... 8529 | 12154 |. -29,8% | 16,4%
4. Volkswagen Phaeton...... 3874 |. 3460 |.. 12,0% |. 7,5%
5. Jaguar XJ............... 3551.|..4550 |. -22,0% |. 6,8%
6. Lexus LS ................2383 |.. 596 |. 299,8% |. 4,6%
7. Maserati Quattroporte... 1608 |. 1229 |.. 30,8% |. 3,1%

Source: JATO Dynamics

— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 6:52:26 PM | | Votes: -2   

Why or why don't AutoSpies use fixed-width font :-\

— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 6:54:02 PM | | Votes: -5   

Just enough to remind the German brands that they are a threat to their global market share.

But not enough for the idiotic euro-only-fanboys of autospies.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:01:26 PM | | Votes: -9   

Nice post downtoearth. By the way, I am the real david999, not the fool trying hard to be me.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:05:32 PM | | Votes: -6   

Interesting post, even with a new body style and 299% increase ins MB S class still out sells the LS 10 to 1 and the aged 7er 4 to 1. Yeah there some numbers to brag about.

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:14:07 PM | | Votes: 7   

"""""""""Interesting post, even with a new body style and 299% increase ins MB S class still out sells the LS 10 to 1 and the aged 7er 4 to 1. Yeah there some numbers to brag about."""""""""

LOL you really are a blind HOMER. MB, BMW and Audi offer 3 liter V6 diesel versions of the S, 7 and A8 in europe that cost $40-50,000 less than the gasoline V8 LS in europe. If you compare Gasoline V8 sales, like 750 vs. LS460 vs. S550 you'd be SHOCKED how well lexus is doing. Most of those german sales come from cheap small versions of the s 7 and A8 with cheap and small diesel engines.

— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 2:17:47 PM | | Votes: -4   

***Most of those german sales come from cheap small versions of the s 7 and A8 with cheap and small diesel engines. ***


Cheap diesel engines in an S-Klasse or 7er? You are badly mistaken. These cars are anything but cheap and those diesels are fast, refined and economical.

Your Lexus LS sells mostly well in Russia where the new elite is trying out different luxury cars. But also in Russia Mercedes and BMW sell more V8 S-Klassen or 7ers than V6 gasoline or diesel models.

— ErichHartmann (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 5:49:39 PM | | Votes: 3   

But those same arguments applied when the Lexus brand was launched.

And unless you are the type to dismiss their success by saying, "well, that's just in America", the Lexus experiment worked.

If Lexus does launch a higher tier brand there are people who will never EVER buy one instead of a Rolls. But there could still be people who want something different, or "new". Same reasons Lexus has done well.

And so what if the new car line only sells well in the US. Is that bad? What if they were to sell enough to be profitable and their customers were satisfied. Isn't that enough?

I'm not saying Lexus is the only way to go in the luxury world, but I'll never understand why the very existance of Lexus bothers some people so.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 7:31:59 PM | | Votes: -4   

Huu76,

GROW UP.

Go to Germany sometime and do me a favor. Visit the BMW Museum, visit the Mercedes-Benz Museum, visit the Porsche Museum etc. What you see there in those museums is the history of those brands and their respective heritage and achievements, be it in technology, safety, motorsport and other fields.

Now for comparison purposes go visit the Lexus Museum and tell me what you see there. Oh wait, Lexus doesn't have a museum. Silly me.

Your constant slamming on BMW is getting on my nerves. BMW has more brand prestige and heritage than Lexus could ever dream about hoping. I understand that if you're American and hold Lexus in a high regard but I am European and Lexus means nothing to me and other Europeans. Lexus doesn't build cars I want, Lexus doesn't offer the engines or trim I want and Lexus doesn't have the prestige to consider itself a true luxury brand in the sense of the European brand. Every single European premium brand, even the mainstream brands, has heritage and a considerable brand history and this is what we Europeans expect especially in a luxury brand. I'm not saying that we're badge snobs, but the simple fact is that people with money want to spend it on something whose badge stands for something. The Lexus badge in Europe is a synonym for an overpriced Toyota (I am serious) with gas-guzzling engines (except the IS220d but that thing is thirsty and outdated) and extremely poor resale value and the lack of different trims. This brand can only appeal to a very small percentage of the market, the rest sees no allure in Lexus.

Lexus had made no effort to adapt to the expensive fuel prices we have in Europe. Instead, they throw in a noisy Toyota Avensis diesel engine into the IS220d and call it a revolution. They market their hybrids in Europes not as performance cars, but as "FUEL EFFICIENT (ROFLMAO) and low emission" vehicles and expect us to believe that. Sorry, but unlike gullible Americans who fall for this Lexus marketing without questioning, we Europeans are a little more open minded in such matters. Oh, and because we don't have an anti-diesel stance here we are not willing to accept the hybrid system right away, as happened in the US.

And now you think this über-luxury brand Lexus is trying to create will do well here? Eh, NO. Big fat NO. NEIN. Lexus must be delusional to think they can compete with Bentley etc. From a technological point of view they can, but from a prestige point of view they cannot and prestige is literally all that matters in this class.

— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 5:11:10 AM | | Votes: 5   

Wimmer:
"What you see there in those museums is the history of those brands and their respective heritage and achievements, be it in technology, safety, motorsport and other fields."

And here is part of their achievements:

http://www.jsae.or.jp/autotech/index_e.html

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 8:59:02 AM | | Votes: -3   

ABCD,

I was talking about the individual achievements of Mercedes, BMW or Porsche etc. Compare the individual achievements of Lexus to either of those brands and you will see that Lexus falls tremendously short. This is how these companies created a name for themselves, prestige and admiration across the globe.

For example, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and BMW have decades of motorsport heritage, which means the technology they developed for this sport eventually trickled down into their production cars. Performing well in any race or championship requires tremendous engineering prowess. Mercedes and Porsche have also done well in rally sport, something many people do not know. Most Americans I know don't even know that Mercedes has a prestigious and impressive motorsport heritage.

These brands are also very strong contributors to the field of automotive safety, especially Mercedes-Benz. I could go on about this but MY POINT is that throughout their existence, Mercedes and BMW among others have been very innovative in various fields of automotive development. These achievements and contributions are documented in their respective museums and many automotive history books.

No doubt the Japanese automotive industry had their share of contributions, but Lexus as a brand itself has done very little in terms of real innovation or safety and their motorsport record is non-existent, unless you're talking about that Rolex series which nobody outside of the US has even heard off or considers impressive.

— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 9:58:07 AM | | Votes: 3   

"I was talking about the individual achievements of Mercedes, BMW or Porsche etc. Compare the individual achievements of Lexus to either of those brands and you will see that Lexus falls tremendously short."

Well, you're always saying that Lexus is a Toyota, and toyota have achivements.

"For example, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and BMW have decades of motorsport heritage, which means the technology they developed for this sport eventually trickled down into their production cars. Performing well in any race or championship requires tremendous engineering prowess. Mercedes and Porsche have also done well in rally sport, something many people do not know. Most Americans I know don't even know that Mercedes has a prestigious and impressive motorsport heritage."

We should distinguish major international races like e.g. F1 and less prestigious like e.g. local touring car races like DTM or Japan touring car races. And if we're talking about this most presigious than Porsche deffinitely has impressive achievements there, in Le Mans or 1986 Dakar for example but BMW's only success in major international races is 1998 Le Mans as I know. Mercedes is more successful, in 1954-1955 they dominated grand prix. Here's a list of F1 constructor winners:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_Grand_Prix_winners_(constructors)
So Mercedes compared to UK's manufacturers or Ferrari fall quite short. I'm not taking into account Mercedes (and Auto Union-now Audi) successes during 34-39 becouse they were than funded by Nazi government. Latest Mercedes involvement in F1 is more like funding:"Although Mercedes is stamped on the engine covers, they are in fact manufactured in Brixworth, Northamptonshire, England by Ilmor Engineering Limited."-link:
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2001/jan03/tytler.html
And there's also one Mercedes wins in Le Mans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans_winners
I've also heard about some successes in ralling in past days, but I don't know how many and how prestigious they were.
So conclusion is that Porsche in fact has decades of motorsport heritage, Mercedes also though much less than Porsche, BMW, not impressive.

"I could go on about this but MY POINT is that throughout their existence, Mercedes and BMW among others have been very innovative in various fields of automotive development."

Lexus --> Toyota has been also innovative, at the beginning mainly in production systems and reliability, from about 80's also in other areas, to mention few for example 1981 Toyota Soarer with touch screen controlling many functions of the car (Electro multivision display) and electroniccaly controlled suspension (TEMS), 1981 toyota Crown with electroniccaly controlled transmission [ http://www.jsae.or.jp/autotech/data_e/8-4e.html ]. Their only problem was that until establishment of Lexus brand all these innovative systems weren't avaiable in Europe or USA becouse they were to expensive for Toyota in these cou

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 11:51:51 AM | | Votes: -1   

Don't understand me wrong, I was correcting your words that they(Toyota -->Lexus) haven't achievements and innovations, I'm not saying that they can compete with Bentley or RR, this I'm not pretty sure.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 12:03:45 PM | | Votes: -1   

Could you imagine what Lexus will achieve in another 20 years from now? The achievements will be un-match.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 2:58:31 PM | | Votes: -2   

they did feel the need, didn't they? did you forget the is-f?

i agree the lexus is well tailored for the majority of buyers. just like mercedes are tailored for more buyers than bmw (but they still offer enthusiast favorites).

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 9:18:38 PM | | Votes: 2   

I don't hate Lexus, several of my freinds drive them and I have sold them their cars. I pesonally like most of the Lexus line and detest a few, but I can say that about BMW a brand which I love.

But Lexus didn't hurt BMW or Mecedes (it made them better) both companies, until the economic down turn were selling more cars than ever. Lets look at who lost sales to Lexus;Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln, and Mercury, troubled lines.

The 300k+ class is very different the "tier one and teir two" cars. Lets be honest, nobody buys these cars because of their technology, or features, they buy them becuase of the name, presitge and heritage. They are the ultimate power symbols. These have spent near a hundred years proving it.

Yes Lexus has done very well. Toyota built a great car in a deeply flawed market. That not the case with Rolls and Bentley. The Maybach is an amazing car, amazing, but it's decades of loss of brand recognition has almost signed its death warrant.

This is the toughest of all car markets and Rolls and Bentley are the only players here for a reason.

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 9:22:56 PM | | Votes: 3   

ddkk10:

> i love how practically everyone who comments on this site hates lexus
> because they think it will bolster their credibility as hardcore
> automotive "enthusiasts"

The best spot-on sentence I've heard since a very long time.

-------------------

— theoptimisticpessimist:

> The Maybach is an amazing car, amazing, but it's decades of loss of
> brand recognition has almost signed its death warrant.

I bet the reason was much simpler. Maybach is too similar to the S-class. Looks like an inflated one. Rolls Royces were never similar to anything, there are unique in their special way.

— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 10:20:02 PM | | Votes: -2   

"The Maybach is an amazing car, amazing, but it's decades of loss of brand recognition has almost signed its death warrant."


I think Maybach was marketed in the wrong way initially. Furthermore the car appears visually to close to the S-Class, especially on the inside. The interior has the same basic design mix of a W140/W220 S-Class and it shows.

While Maybach makes excellent cars and they look nice too, I myself would prefer nothing more than a 1964-1981 Mercedes 600 sedan if I had the money. Now that is class.

— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 5:14:14 AM | | Votes: 8   

Thats what they said when Lexus came out with first gen LS. Look where they are now. A car company is constantly inventing new car categories and new markets. Look at MB with the A class and B class. BMW with their 1 series. These categories belong to Toyota and the Germans want a piece of the action. You can't blame Lexus for wanting a piece of the uberluxury pie.

— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 2/26/2009 11:39:09 PM | | Votes: -4   

"Look at MB with the A class and B class. BMW with their 1 series."


Wrong.

Those cars are adaptations to the changing market situation in Europe. Core BMW and Mercedes customers are getting older and new ones must be attracted to the brand. These vehicles, while still expensive, provide a great means of becoming a BMW or MB owner. Those cars are also perfect for older people who want a prestigious badge, safety but don't want the hassle of driving a bigger car. If you live in Europe you will understand why such cars exist.

Back in 1982 when Mercedes-Benz released the 190-Series, many people felt it would cheapen the brands image: it didn't. The 190-Series was a smashing success for Mercedes globally, even in the US. People warmed up to the idea of a "small Mercedes" that was spacious on the inside and compact exterior dimensions. So why did Mercedes develop the 190? Because of an increase in energy prices, a demand for fuel-efficient cars and because in the early 1980s it was time to LURE in younger buyers to the brand, as traditional MB customers were going up the ladder from the "E-Class" to the "S-Class" and the brand didn't have a car that was attracting younger buyers. Mercedes also saw how their neighbor in Munich, BMW, was having success with the model that eventually would be christened the 3-Series. The same thing is literally happening today, hence the A- and B-Class, A3 and 1-Series.

The A-Class has actually enhanced the reputation of Mercedes in Europe, as did the 1-Series or A3 for BMW and Audi. Younger people have gotten interested in these brands, younger people have been able to afford them. It is the perfect strategy for luring in the next generation of _________ (insert brand here) buyer.


My sister has a 2008 BMW 118i and it is an excellent car. When I worked for a Mercedes-Benz dealership I also drove every single model of the new A- and B-Classes except for the A200 Turbo and I can tell you that these cars feel more solid, safer and drive better than a comparable Toyota Aygo, Yaris or Corolla (I've driven the Yaris).


Lexus can use the "We have Toyota..." excuse all they want, but BMW and Mercedes and Audi have to attract customers using their products, and not by creating a new brand specifically designed to attract younger buyers. Lexus is in the unique position of having been developed by Toyota and as that Lancia guy already said, many Toyota customers tend to go to Lexus when looking for a premium car. It is a different situation. Lexus essentially relies on Toyota customers for support while the big German three have to use smaller more affordable, but still premium, vehicles to attract new customers. Both strategies seem to work well for Lexus and the Germans, wouldn't you say?

And once again, such small cars do not cheapen the brand prestige of a company, especially when Mercedes, BMW and Audi have a history and heritage that Lexus cannot ever hope to match.

— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 5:26:25 AM | | Votes: 9   

Hyundai is bothering more than just Lexus.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 2:12:53 PM | | Votes: 0   

Thank you for that.

I love Lexus, but I have always thought that certain aspects of the brand could be improved.
I am willing to pay more for something that is less conservative than the current sedan and SUV Lexus flagships - less limits ...or in other words, vehicles that are far more over-engineered than possibly imagine with the best designs, materials, and attention to details.

Does it matter if they make a lot of money? I hope Toyota doesn't worry too much about that and just let the Lexus division go wild.
Call me crazy Lexus fanatic, but I think my hype for the brand goes far beyond fan-hood.

— WorldofLuxury (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 4:33:14 AM | | Votes: -5   

It's funny that if it was Ford, GM, or Acura having a rival brand to Rolls-Royce wouldn't no one care nor you would see at least half as many comments, but since it's a Lexus everybody gets scared and scared that they know Lexus would succeed.

— iLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 3:02:40 PM | | Votes: -6   

Why? Is it because there is more honor in buying/aquiring them?

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 2/27/2009 5:11:26 PM | | Votes: -6   

What planet do you live on? I suggest you look at the sales volumes of Audi, BMW, and MB vs. Lexus globally to know that Lexus hasn't done a damn thing to the Germans premium trio. Not to mention Lexus is loosing market share in their biggest market to boot- North America. Spare me the Toyota jingoism crap.

— VISO (View Profile)

Posted on 3/1/2009 10:36:43 PM | | Votes: 5