McLaren-Mercedes loses all constructors' points, fined $100m (US).

Agent004 submitted on 09/13/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 5:34 PM
from: www.itv-f1.com

[46] user comments | category: Misc News

Tags: formula 1, mclaren, mercedes

Tag Links:

formula 1

mclaren

mercedes

McLaren-Mercedes loses all constructors' points, fined $100m (US).

In what has to be a record breaking fine, the punishment was handed down today from the FIA. The judgement's reasoning will be released Friday, 9/14/2007 and team head, Ron Dennis, said he would wait to hear that before officially appealing the ruling.

"The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructor points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship and the team can score no points for the remainder of the season," the FIA said in a statement.

This of course means Ferrari takes over the points lead, with BMW-Sauber bumping up to second place.

As for what will happen in 2008, it is still unclear, however McLaren-Mercedes will have to allow their car to be examined by the FIA before the start of the season. Read Article

Comments:

Images hosted in your AgentSpace can now be posted in the comments section using the following syntax (case matters):
[img]IMAGE URL[/img]
Example: [img]http://agent004.myautospies.com/users/150/Sample-Gallery/sample1.JPG[/img]

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 9/14/2007 3:06:06 AM

+1 Boost

""Toyota copying stuff from Ferrari..."

Except "Toyota" was not convicted of any wrongdoing, eg. didn't lose any points or had to pay a fine. The same cannot be said for McLaren-Mercedes."

Rubbish!!!

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 9/13/2007 5:59:24 PM

+3 Boost

duh...duh...consumer reports...duh...tom cruise...duh...bill gates...charles manson...duh...

reply to this comment

BentleyGT - 9/13/2007 6:24:03 PM

+7 Boost

Mercedes will NEVER go to lexus for help. FYI Toyota has all the money, dont forget that Toyota is the parent company of lexus. Mercedes has been around for over 115 years, they can afford this little fine.

reply to this comment

Bill - 9/13/2007 7:46:59 PM

+4 Boost

Hey Houstoncutie, I think Toyota is behind this! Trying to eliminate the competition one by one so they'll have a chance! Next week we'll be reading about Ferrari getting fined $100 million!

reply to this comment

Bill - 9/13/2007 7:48:15 PM

+7 Boost

Oh yeah, let's not forget the F1 scandal that happened a few years ago. Do you remember it?

Toyota copying stuff from Ferrari...

reply to this comment

4wheelsnme - 9/15/2007 3:50:51 PM

0 Boost

houstonnastie2000 you shouldn´t be posting here.... your beloved Toyota/Lexus has been around for years at F1 and spent millions for what? INCOMPETENTS! that´s what they are...Look at BMW ...1st year as a Team and already in Third Place.... now second....

reply to this comment

cdoke - 9/13/2007 6:25:22 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

What in the hell does this have to do with Lexus? Please for the love of god don't actually answer that question.

Anyway...

I read this eariler today and I must admit that the amount of the fine took me by surprise.

reply to this comment

A4ORCE - 9/13/2007 7:05:30 PM

+3 Boost

Yeah, it's nuts considering it's like the entire budget of 2 smaller teams...

Monk - 9/13/2007 7:26:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

wtf!!! at least lose all the points or get fined $100 million - not both
otherwise it's stupid Mike Coughlans fault. eff you Mike! thanks a lot

reply to this comment

Bill - 9/13/2007 7:44:47 PM

+2 Boost

I've got mixed feelings about the "punishment"... because it wasn't a punishment at all.

McLaren's yearly income is around 500 million dollars... fining a company like that isn't going to do anything.

Okay they lost their constructor's championship points. But everybody knows that the driver's championship is what matters the most.

I understand the FIA gave a deal to the drivers ...but I don't understand why. They could have just told them that unless they provide the information, they won't be racing next season.

This sort of feels like you steal someone's Porche, you get caught, and they take away your microwave oven as a punishment, but the Porsche is still on your drive way at the end of the day.

A far better and a real punishment would have been to let the drivers keep their points but not award them points for the remaining races, or the 2 last races even.

I think that without that info on the Ferrari, McLaren would be breaking down just as much as they did last season. It's clear they've benefitted from it and the complaint about Ferrari's "moving" floor alone makes it evident.

Oh well, whichever of the Laren drivers wins the championship will have a hollow victory. It won't mean a thing as everybody knows it was won by cheating.

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 9/13/2007 8:01:41 PM

0 Boost

like the new england patriots

david999 - 9/13/2007 8:36:18 PM

0 Boost

Don't forget that there is a seperate criminal case involving the attempted sabotage of the Frearri car before the Monaco GP. I agree that the driver's championship will be a very hollow victory indeed, and shame on McLaren.
This is really disgraceful.

vwmbfan - 9/13/2007 9:01:01 PM

+1 Boost

Since the Ferrari cars are the ones breaking this year I don't think that is a valid argument. When Ross Brawn was there the Ferrari's were bullet proof now they fail on a regular basis. The McLaren's haven't retired yet this year.

Johnel - 9/13/2007 9:41:30 PM

+2 Boost

You all seem to forget the MOST important detail in all of this.

It was Ferrari's employee Stepney who leaked the Ferrari's secrets, and who sabotaged the Ferrari.

Furthur more the design of the F1 cars for the following year usually start around month of May.

So how on earth can McLaren benefit from any data when they recieved the leaked documents once the season has started when their current car design was done in around May 2006.

here is some news to what has been reported.

So, did the punishment fit the crime? Following yesterday's decision by the World Motor Sport Council, McLaren were fined $100m (£49.2m) and have lost the 166 points they have scored in the World Championship, and will not be eligible to score any more regardless of what their drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso achieve this season.

One of the least savoury aspects of this sorry saga has been the accusation that it has not just been a matter of pursuing justice, but part of the ongoing class war between team principal Ron Dennis and FIA president Max Mosley.

Mosley, the son of controversial politician Sir Oswald Mosley, was born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth. The family owned a significant part of Manchester but Sir Oswald's political persuasions militated against his son's own aspirations in that arena. Dennis came from humbler stock, working his way up from his role as mechanic to Jochen Rindt at Cooper and then Brabham to run his own racing teams. It took him four tries before he finally hit the jackpot with McLaren in 1980.

Naturally, Mosley and the FIA have vehemently denied this. But the fact remains that Dennis was told in Monza last weekend that if he were to retire from the sport, all the teams' problems would go away.

Then there is the fact that drivers Hamilton and Alonso keep their points, and thus remain in strong contention for the drivers' world championship as it goes into its final four races starting with the Belgian GP at Spa-Francorchamps this weekend.

This of course is common sense as far as the interest of the world is concerned. It would indeed be suicidal for the WMSC to have penalised them out of the competition, but there is a clear paradox here. The fact remains that if the cars benefited from Ferrari technology, then so did the men who drove them.

Whether any of this is fair depends upon your point of view. At a stroke, it hands the constructors' title to Ferrari. Throughout, the Italian team have been portrayed as the wronged party, having had their intellectual property allegedly stolen by their former head of performance development, Nigel Stepney, who had become disgruntled with an inferior position when he had aspirations of talking over the departed Ross Brawn's position as technical director of the team. Stepney is still the subject of a criminal investigation in Italy, but the recipient of the data – all 780 pages of it – was McLaren chief designer, Mike Coughlan. He has stated i

reply to this comment

Johnel - 9/13/2007 9:45:16 PM

-1 Boost

He has stated in a legal affidavit that he received the information from Stepney.

That much we knew. That, and the fact that Stepney and Coughlan had aspirations to present themselves as technical director and chief designer to Honda (and Toyota), together with other disaffected Ferrari personnel. What was not known until yesterday was whether Coughlan subsequently used any of the Ferrari information to develop the McLaren MP4-22. The WMSC held that he had.

Stripping McLaren of all of their world championship points is excessively harsh, given that the period in which their car may or may not have benefited from the Ferrari information effectively ran from March to August. And given that teams habitually copy one another. It is common for all of them to employ photographers to take images of rivals' cars on the starting grid. It is thus very difficult to determine whether developments have arisen because of industrial espionage or due to such "diligence".

Oh, and that $100m fine? It is unprecedented and Draconian, and clearly designed to grab world headlines. Perhaps it was just the late hour at which the official statement was written, perhaps it was genuine obfuscation, but the net effect is that the day after the decision, all the world will remember is a massive fine, whether or not that is what McLaren will ever actually pay.

Ferrari have won this round and are very happy about it, but elsewhere in the paddock there is little respect for a team that literally seems happy to win at any cost.
-----------------------------------------------------------

THE LAST SENTENCE SAYS IT ALL Evil or Very Mad

Atenza28 - 9/14/2007 1:24:11 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

"Ferrari have won this round and are very happy about it, but elsewhere in the paddock there is little respect for a team that literally seems happy to win at any cost.
-----------------------------------------------------------

THE LAST SENTENCE SAYS IT ALL Evil or Very Mad"

I think this is B.S. Ferrari has won enough championships and lost enough of them to have this be about winning. You'd be happy to if stolen property of yours was found in the hands of your competition and they have been found guilty of just having it. That's how society works. Yes Stepney more than likely gave it to McLaren (which he enthusiastically denies) but that doesn't matter. The fact that it was there explains why a penalty of some sort should have been levied. Speaking of Stepneys' denial of sourcing the material shows that peoples word isn't somethign that can be trusted. Ron Dennis, Coughlan, Hamilton, De la Rosa, Alonso, so some 140+ engineers and mechanics say that it wasn't used but I doubt they'd say they had used it to save the teams bum. Not everyone is so trustworthy.

Now that this has been said, We still haven't heard what the FIA has to say about why this penalty has been handed down. That should show up front and center tomorrow morning. I think the FIA will shed some light on the subject and if they don't then I can easily see this whole thing as being fishy. There is always an appeal process. So we don't officially know how this will play out yet.

And to answer the question does the punishment fit the crime? well we don't know yet because none of us has the information that the FIA does. We just have articles and speculation. They have evidence. The FIA has gotten things wrong in the past but nothing so major.

Next do I think that the fine is a farce. Yeah to an extent. I can easily see your point in the big fine being an eye catcher. It caught my eye although I've been a fan of F1 for a long time and I've been following this process since it was first broken.

Finally I definitely see your point about when cars are developed for the following season. But when things like B-spec cars are announced mid season tells me that they are still working on the car well into the present season for the rest of said season. Then again I suppose a B-spec car would have to be announced considering it has to go through FIA inspections. Man it's just so hard to judge, I think true judgment by the fan base should wait till we see what the FIA gives for reason for the sanctions.

richardp996 - 9/14/2007 9:48:05 AM

0 Boost

Lastnight I was thinking about what you said, 'So how on earth can McLaren benefit from any data when they recieved the leaked documents once the season has started when their current car design was done in around May 2006.' The thing about Formula 1 is that a design will evolve during the season. This is key to the success of a team.

In 2005 Williams-BMW unveiled the FW26 with its famous walrus tusk-nose design. By the middle of the season the front nose cone was changed to something more traditional. This year the FW29 has evolved since its first race. Check out one of the F1 magazines at your nearest bookstore, one of them explain the aerodynamic changes the Williams team has undergone this year.

I am implying that a team fighting for better results will go through a variation of car designs and teams who are on top will continue to refine and modify their car to maintain its winning ways. This is why manufacturers in the production car business will continue to test in order to improve their products.

Porsche facelifted the 996 and reworked much of the suspension geometry. Porsche is expected to release the facelifted 997 soon with several key changes of the car to keep it competitive in the consumer market. Porsche is probably a little upset that the R8 upstaged them but with the 997 MKII coming out, chances are it can sway things back its way, right?

Back to Formula One. Ferrari is competitive and will change their car accordingly. McLaren has been doing well and will want to keep up its advantage, which means testing of new aerodynamics, engine packages, suspension packages. So I think Ferrari is implying that they would have used much of the stolen data to to be two-steps ahead rather than one. But ultimately the FIA has to research and find out of the stolen data was indeed used, which now that I think about it could possibly have happened.

ThierryHenry14 - 9/13/2007 9:59:24 PM

-3 Boost

F1 has always had bias for Ferrari, the series' longest participant...

reply to this comment

richardp996 - 9/14/2007 12:23:18 AM

+1 Boost

Just about everyone is jumping to conclusions. McLaren may appeal the ruling too. McLaren never denied that the information was in the personal possession of their employees at his home, but as of right now nothing proves that the data was used on the MP4-23. The FIA also announced that they will compile a report on the and that it will be examined independently, assumingly to ensure Ferrari's intellectual property has not been used, which the car is yet to be studied and the FIA is basing this ruling on some 'evidence' Ferrari supplied to the FIA. There is a chance that the ruling could be overturned.

A full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season.

By the way, no McLaren representative will be allowed on the podium should Lewis and Alonso win in any of the remaining races of the 2007 season.

reply to this comment

Mercedes - 9/14/2007 3:00:48 AM

0 Boost

Finally some very knowledgeable people here on this site. Good posts.

reply to this comment

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 9/14/2007 3:07:51 AM

0 Boost

The F1 season is messed up. F1 has become too political..

reply to this comment

indoctrin8ed - 9/14/2007 4:58:52 AM

-1 Boost

Alonso: "What-a-the-fu-ck-a"?
Shumacker: "Not my el problem-o dude".

Gotta give Ferrari credit. Their hardcore persisitant execution has still yields victories, even when things aren't favorable at the finish line.

reply to this comment

Lexus - 9/14/2007 5:47:58 PM

+1 Boost

I guess McLaren and MB is NOT what is ought to be, cheating?? I guess you doing anything to try to keep up with Toyota and Lexus success.

reply to this comment

ThierryHenry14 - 9/17/2007 6:44:27 PM

+1 Boost

I suppose Mclaren stole information from Toyota...

BY THE WAY, ITS TOYOTA... LEXUS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FORMULA 1.

TOYOTA TRIED TO BRING TOYOTA IN BY OFFERING IT TO FRANK WILLIAMS, AND WILLIAMS REJECTED LEXUS, BECAUSE THEY WANT TOYOTA.

Lexus - 9/14/2007 5:48:23 PM

+2 Boost

correction, it McLaren-MB

reply to this comment

ThierryHenry14 - 9/17/2007 6:46:13 PM

0 Boost

LEXUS HAS NEVER BEEN IN F1, LETS GET THAT STRAIGHT. THEY TRIED BUT WAS EMBARRASSEDLY REJECTED BY WILLIAMS.

reply to this comment

Lexus - 9/15/2007 10:50:53 PM

+2 Boost

The title of the post said McLaren-MB was fine $100 Million Dollars in U.S. currency for cheating. And that all you need to know so stay on the topic.

reply to this comment

JWalkerLegrande - 9/16/2007 2:33:02 PM

0 Boost

Shame on Alonso.

You are a coward little pimp. Get back to kart racing, no need to cheat there to beat the seven yr olds.

BTW, McLaren Cars is British, they were fined and not Mercedes-Benz who is the engine supplier.

reply to this comment

Lexus - 9/17/2007 1:14:08 AM

+1 Boost

Thank you for clearing that up

Lexus

reply to this comment

To post a comment for this story, you must first Login.

If you do not have an account, you will need to Register (It's Free!).

	Agent004 The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.
	View My AgentSpace