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Out of Control?:Senate Proposes Horsepower Limits to Force Gas Saving in U.S.

Agent009 submitted on 03/07/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 12:51 PM
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Out of Control?:Senate Proposes Horsepower Limits to Force Gas Saving in U.S.

Senators from both parties are considering a law to limit horsepower in both cars and trucks as measure to force stricter gas saving measures.

Automotive News reported today that the lawmakers, members of a key Senate committee, also said they don't trust the Bush administration to be tough enough in raising fuel economy standards.

"I sense a lot of reluctance and foot-dragging," said Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, during a recent hearing.

Snowe and other Senate members have introduced a bill requiring new vehicle to average 35 mpg by 2019 , almost 40 percent higher than today's average.

Similarly, Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., stated that too much technology goes into satisfying consumers who want bigger and more powerful vehicles and not enough focus is toward gas mileage.

"We have to set some enforceable standards," he said.

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02WRX - 3/7/2007 1:05:34 PM

+2 Boost

What could be more unamerican than this? From muscle cars to horsepower limits...

reply to this comment

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 5:21:19 PM

+1 Boost

Well, asking people to use less gas to 1. promote national security 2. reduce CO2 emissions seems pretty patriotic to me.

The government DOES, in fact, pay for your gasoline, spending trillions of dollars to keep the oil flowing out of the Middle East to our shores, leasing lands cut rate, and giving tax breaks for oil exploration.

Under Clinton, the non-partisan Government Accounting Office estimated the real cost to you of a gallon of gas to be close to $13.00. Most of it is coming from your income taxes- and that was before we borrowed a trillion to pay for a war in Iraq!

Love a V-8, but would rather not send money to those charming suppliers who feed our addiction.

captainnemojr - 3/7/2007 1:22:30 PM

+2 Boost

I agree. If I want a car that gets 8 MPG then so be it. The government doesn't pay for my gas, I do. What the Senate should do is relax the emissions standards especially on diesel cars if they want more fuel savings. Many of the diesel cars in Europe don't make it over here because the emissions standards are so strict for them.

reply to this comment

matt635 - 3/7/2007 1:25:03 PM

+7 Boost

Maybe Americans should start paying Euro fuel prices! That'd soon persuade them to scale down their vehicles!

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Agent009 - 3/7/2007 1:27:52 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

That probably would work better to naturally curtail it.

nembogt - 3/7/2007 1:32:17 PM

-1 Boost

Maybe manually shifting cogs should be illegal too. Government issue GM 4-speed for all! how about standard issue Ford Vulcan V-6s across the board as well.

reply to this comment

thetanman - 3/7/2007 1:35:37 PM

+2 Boost

I'm not opposed to a version of it. There should be some sort of mandatory ratio of HP to MPG to avoid a tweaked guzzler tax. For instance, if your S4 gets 15/21mpg when an A4 can get 34/25, then you should probably be taxed in the amount it takes the efficiency balance to be "carbon neutralized." By the way, that's where all the money collected should go, to offsetting the environmental impact. If someone wants a 500hp car don't make it illegal, just make them responsible for the unnecessary CO2 impact. Now to apply this for different mileages...

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S4cabriofoxone - 3/7/2007 6:59:11 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

I'm happy with my 17mpg S4, thank you. I wouldn't ever trade it for an A4.

thetanman - 3/7/2007 1:47:50 PM

+1 Boost

Agreed. If it meets the MPG then who cares how it is done. (I'll bet you'll get an eyeful of LS hybrids at next year's Oscars)

reply to this comment

rg12345 - 3/7/2007 4:35:21 PM

+2 Boost

Not hybrids, not soon anyway, but the points is taken. They should observe the emission, not the hp.

reply to this comment

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 10:47:31 PM

+1 Boost

but that would require intelligent policy! I don't see that from the right or the left!!!

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supermoto - 3/7/2007 2:08:17 PM

+5 Boost

Next thing you know, all cars will be electronically limited with a 65MPH speed limit. By these senators logic, why not outlaw private boats and aircraft too? No one needs these items. Let's hope the insanity stops now.

reply to this comment

Terminal10 - 3/7/2007 2:57:07 PM

+2 Boost

Instead of the current bill they should offer tax incentives for anyone who buys a vehicle with a 35 average MPG. If they are really serious they should have the tax incentives set at very high rates.

reply to this comment

skinny - 3/7/2007 3:28:23 PM

+3 Boost

I agree with one of the previous posters that said a better way would be to just jack up gas taxes and make gas prices here like those in Europe, over $4.00 a gallon. This will naturally stimulate demand for higher MPG vehicles.

reply to this comment

no1listensanyway - 3/7/2007 3:31:34 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Our economy is too dependent on cheap gas. Jacking up price will send our ecnonomy into a tail spin. Thats why the goverment is going after car companies and not oil companies.

hitec - 3/7/2007 4:08:38 PM

+4 Boost

If they apply this standard, it better apply to car and trucks/suv's. Right now the gas guzzler tax applies only to cars, and not trucks and SUV's. In my opinion this is total BS!

reply to this comment

rg12345 - 3/7/2007 4:39:50 PM

+3 Boost

Especially because trucks and suv's get the worst mpg, with the worse emissions. I won't be able to understand why someone would buy a pickup truck with a huge engine but never use it in something like construction materials, tow heavy stuff, move furniture etc. I mean, how much furniture do you care in a lifetime? How many time do you move, anyway? I am only saying this because I see truck with just 2/3 front seats, huge engine and an empty trunk. Hey, if you waste that much gas, at least carry something with your truck.

Only in U.S.

kart1 - 3/7/2007 7:25:45 PM

0 Boost

Yes that is right, only in the US and it is not a bad thing!

Rupert - 3/7/2007 5:03:40 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

tax the hell out of gas. That's a much better economic solution, and people don't feel forced to buy weaker cars, they can still choose, but they pay the price in gas tax. make it 5 dollars a gallon, same as in Britian. And tax cars based on emissions, again, like they do in Britian.

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no1listensanyway - 3/7/2007 6:21:43 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

How can you consider taxing gas as an economic solution? We pay the same amount for a barrell of gas that any other country who buys on the free market. Why should we be subject to paying more taxes, just becuase the EU does it? Thats a poor excuse because EU's economy works well around the need for cheap gas because of the presence of small cities with lots of public transportation.

The goal of the US Fed, is too keep infaltion under control and as we saw post - Katrina once gas goes up, so does everything else, people get panicky and stop spending. Once the consumers stop spending, the result affects everyone. The only ones who did great that year were oil companies. They had record profits, ExxonMobil had profits of over 100 billion and BP even got a good chunk of money.

I do agree there is a problem with our addiction to oil, but the answer is not in taxing gas, we are going to need gas no matter what we drive. The solution is in engineering better cars, plain and simple.

jasongoudie - 3/7/2007 6:09:27 PM

+1 Boost

I see the socialist euro's are contributing heavily on this one. Tax Tax Tax Tax!!!! That is all Europe is about. Look we here in Capitalist Land buy what we want and have the freedom to choose. In europe their high gas prices have crippled their economies and you are on your way to bread lines and rations!! This will never fly and I see that it was proposed by the Demmy's. Just one more thing they want to do to try and make us move more towards socialism.

This has nothing to do with limiting horse power, global warming, etc.... This has to do with imposing restrictions and taking more taxpayers money for social programs!!!!

Once again I will state that liberals kill people with their programs and regulations. This proposed horsepower limit would hamper a car and certainly end up killing people who tried to pull out into traffic, etc...!!!

reply to this comment

no1listensanyway - 3/7/2007 6:23:32 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

Finally a true capitalist comrade.

S4cabriofoxone - 3/7/2007 7:02:28 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

"This will never fly and I see that it was proposed by the Demmy's. Just one more thing they want to do to try and make us move more towards socialism."

Support is just as effective as proposal.

""I sense a lot of reluctance and foot-dragging," said Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, during a recent hearing."

EvoAudi - 3/7/2007 7:22:04 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

they should change the emissions to allow bluetec cars and most clean diesels, and apply gas guzzler tax to consumer trucks.

reply to this comment

kart1 - 3/7/2007 7:22:52 PM

0 Boost

THIS PLAIN AND SIMPLY SUCKS!

You can the manufacturers, but you can never limit the aftermarket (legally or illegally). Why not put restrictions on everything that people like to do, that would make the people happy.

reply to this comment

kart1 - 3/7/2007 7:26:08 PM

0 Boost

You know what this means - used car values are going to go up.

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izfuney - 3/7/2007 7:44:25 PM

+2 Boost

Amen ! Finally somebody who understands what this nation is all about. Taxing gas is a flat tax that will affect the poor far more then the rich. American cities do not have alterantives to auto transport like the cities in Europe. We already have gas guzzler tax. I frankly believe that this change must come from the people, whereby we use smarter cars, that are more fuel efficient, rather that living by Bureaucrat Mandate from Capitol Hill...

Please keep your tax and expensive GAS in Europe. They subsidize diesel beacause it is used by the transportation industry. Frankly , Europe goes for a socuialist solution because that best meets its needs. ( or at least it thinks it does) . With most Eurpoean economies in the toilet one doesent feel the need to emulate them.

reply to this comment

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 11:05:59 PM

+2 Boost

Diesel is not "subsidized" in Europe. It is taxed, but at a lower rate than gasoline.

How about this? No new taxes, but let's take the part of the income tax that goes to pay for oil security, and transfer it (revenue neutral) to a tax per barrel of oil?

That way, people who are using the gas pay their fair share.......and people who save, don't. It would reduce money we sent to Hugo Chavez and the Saudis......and depress oil revenues around the world, as demand dropped.

jasongoudie - 3/7/2007 8:45:13 PM

+2 Boost

EvoAudi???? Tax Commercial Trucks. We don't want diesels here. I don't want to have to plug my car in and keep it running when it is cold in the winter.

All taxing commercial trucks would do is cripple the economy by rasing the price of good and thus killing poor people in the process.

I don't know why liberals and socialist are always looking for a hand out. Go make a living do some hard work not trying to impose more tax on someone and essentially stealing their money. Do I need to post the history of the world again?? Ok I will!!

reply to this comment

jasongoudie - 3/7/2007 8:49:03 PM

+1 Boost

World History - As it Really Was

Humans originally existed as members of small bands of nomadic hunters/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the summer and would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in the winter.
The two most important events in all of history were the invention of beer and the invention of the wheel. The wheel was invented to get man to the beer. These were the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two distinct subgroups:
1. Liberals
2. Conservatives
Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented yet, so while our early humans were sitting around waiting for them to be invented, they just stayed close to the brewery.
*_That's how villages were formed._*
Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to B-B-Q at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is
*_known as the Conservative movement_*.
Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly B-B-Q's and doing the sewing, fetching, and hair dressing.
*_This was the beginning of the Liberal movement._*
Some of these liberal men eventually evolved into women.
*_The rest became known as girliemen_*.
Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, the invention of group therapy, group hugs, and the concept of Democratic voting to decide how to divide the meat and beer that conservatives provided.
Over the years conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.
Modern liberals like imported beer (with lime added), but most prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and French food are standard liberal fare.
Another interesting evolutionary side note: most of their women have higher testosterone levels than their men.
Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, dreamers in Hollywood and group therapists are liberals.
Liberals invented the designated hitter rule because it wasn't fair to make the pitcher also bat.
Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, athletes, Marines, and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.
Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals remained in Europe when conservatives were coming to America. They crept in after t

reply to this comment

jasongoudie - 3/7/2007 8:49:48 PM

+1 Boost

The rest

They crept in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of trying to get more for nothing.

Here ends today's lesson in world history: It should be noted that a Liberal may have a momentary urge to angrily respond to the above before forwarding it. A Conservative will simply laugh and be so convinced of the absolute truth of this history that it will be forwarded immediately to other true believers and to more liberals just to piss them off.

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 11:08:58 PM

+2 Boost

So, in evolutionary terms, is everyone gay?

truckmen - 3/12/2007 6:36:35 PM

+1 Boost

Good one jasongoudie! These politicians are Definatly a bunch of morons! I can understand upping the MPG to 35 but why limit HP? That is technology? There is no reason for auto companies to improve if that is all that they can work with! In other words if you can get 1000.hp and still get 35mpg why not! Technology is advancing then! Think outside of the box!

jasongoudie - 3/7/2007 8:51:02 PM

+1 Boost

Now do you see my point. Raising tax and regulating people is wrong and a very liberal idea!!

VIVA LA Horse Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to this comment

no1listensanyway - 3/7/2007 9:08:52 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

"If you are a liberal before your 30 you have no heart, a liberal after 30 you have no brain"

I always that was funny.

reply to this comment

kart1 - 3/7/2007 10:29:42 PM

+1 Boost

I believe it kind of goes like this buddy:

If you are a conservative when you are young then you have no heart. If you are a liberal when you are old then you have no brains.

kart1 - 3/7/2007 10:31:06 PM

0 Boost

wait where did you quote that from?

no1listensanyway - 3/7/2007 10:43:30 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Technically it is, if your not a democratic before your 30 you have no heart, if your not a republican after your 30, you have no brain. Buddy.

cdoke - 3/8/2007 1:03:39 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I have always heard it:

"If you are young and not a liberal: you have not heart. If you are old and not a conservative: you have no money."

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 11:14:42 PM

+1 Boost

The original quote is from George Bernard Shaw, and the quotes here distort it beyond any semblance of the meaning.

"If you are not a communist before you are thirty, you have no heart, if you are a communist after 30, you have no brain."

"Liberals" are not communists, and "Conservatives" are not fascists.

reply to this comment

chewy - 3/7/2007 9:16:06 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Not the way to go. #1 easiest way to reduce fuel consumption: place a gas guzzler tax on SUVs and pickups. We can't have 8 million of these 14 mpg guzzlers be sold each year and given a free pass.

#2 Diesels are coming with easy 30% increase in fuel economy.

reply to this comment

zsz1 - 3/7/2007 11:20:52 PM

+1 Boost

The bill that was proposed asks for gasoline consumption to be reduced (25 mpg average to 35 mpg average) by whatever means necessary (e.g. through use of alternative fuel sources, etc.). It does not require a reduction in power.

Here's a link: http://feinstein.senate.gov/07releases/r-teninten.htm

reply to this comment

huu76 - 3/7/2007 11:39:28 PM

-4 Boost

I have a better idea, outlaw diesel passenger cars to reduce oil consumption and force V8 trucks to become I4 and V6 diesels.

Just like you can inflate horsepower by adjusting math numbers, you can deflate them too.

Chewy,
30% increased mileage comes at a price of 25% more oil required to produce. How many times do I have to tell you for it to sink in? Diesel cars are for backward places like Europe.

reply to this comment

chewy - 3/8/2007 5:58:21 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

No it doesn't you idiot. Diesel is 10% denser, so yes it would take 10% more oil to make the same liquid amount of diesel. BUT you also get 10% more engergy. So it equals out. GET THAT!!!!!!!

louisvuittondon - 3/8/2007 1:25:57 AM

+2 Boost

Im not for this HP limit thing!! All for higher MPG though. I say TAX worthless SUV. All driven by soccer moms who have an image problem anyways. Raise the gas guzzler tax on SUV buyers. (unless the buyer has to use it for work of course)

reply to this comment

SHERR - 3/8/2007 7:36:37 AM

+1 Boost

I'll pay more tax ok? Forget about that bill....! I want more HORSEPOWER!

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huu76 - 3/8/2007 8:34:37 PM

0 Boost

So if it's the same, why use diesel when gas by itself is cleaner? Where'd your 10% come from? I'll show you where 25% came from for the 100th time if you want.

Passenger diesels are useless.

Hybrids get the same 30% as diesel but use nearly 50% less oil. Get that?

A V8 gas engine is probably as dirty as a V6 diesel, but atleast the diesel can pull just as much using less oil, or more with the same amount.

reply to this comment

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 10:44:10 PM

+2 Boost

Diesel is much denser that gasoline, and a gallon of diesel contains more energy.

In terms of CO2, Diesel is far cleaner than gas. The soot and NOX are problems, but they seem to have come up with ways to manage that.

Georgemia - 3/8/2007 10:46:35 PM

+2 Boost

If you drive around town, stopping and starting (buses, taxis, mail trucks) hybrids are great.......but if you're going to drive from NYC to LA, the diesel wins.

Balance! There are different solutions for different types of transportation.

The one that makes no sense at all is ethanol from corn, but that's about the Iowa primary, not about energy policy.

huu76 - 3/8/2007 10:57:51 PM

0 Boost

George,
Incorrect. Diesel contains more carbon because it hasn't been refined as much.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_economy/the-diesel-dilemma.html
The magic link that no one has yet been able to refute.
It even includes Chewy's most valid arguement about the free ride SUVs and 8500lb vehicles get. I'm all for it. If you can afford the vehicle, you can afford the tax.

I've never argued that diesels were less efficient on the LA to NYC daily commute, but even now hybrids are catching up because better batteries and electric motors allow them to take reliance away from gas engines. Case in point, the 2006 to 2007 Prius EPA went climbed to 67 city/71 highway. That should push it up past the 50mpg real world mileage mark. Diesels are barely breaking 40mpg, and according to the EPA, the Jetta TDI consumes 10 barrels of oil per year vs. the Prius' 5.2

And also, most ppl would fly from NYC to LA. Most :)

reply to this comment

chewy - 3/9/2007 12:37:30 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

The Prius never achieved 67/71 even on the old lier EPA ratings.

Plus if you compare the 2006 Toyota Corolla and 2006 Jetta 1.9 TDI you will see that the Jetta uses 10.3 barrels of oil per year and the Corolla 10.4. When you look at the fuel economy ratings (allowing for the EPA rounding) you can see that diesel is 10% denser and thereofre has 10% more energy per a given volume (liter/gallon)

Plus in the past diesel was made from "lef over" oil after production of gasoline, almost making it free.

kurtismac - 3/9/2007 3:19:43 AM

+1 Boost

Nuff said chewy...thats rite chew into them..US have to get serious about saving on gas, and stop the lip service..Yes get more horsepower but yeah support more terrorists and leftis governments...The american consumer needs to wake up and see what their will to choose is creating...I say tax the SUVs and any gas guzzlers that makes more sense...ensure that if a poor man is willing to spend on a corolla he won't die at the pumps...

reply to this comment

truckmen - 3/9/2007 5:34:30 AM

+1 Boost

Those morons shouldn't limit horse power! Simply impose the average fuel mielage to there 35mpg and if a given auto company can squeeze 300hp out of it and still achieve 35-40mpg even better! I am still looking forward to those gas motors that work like a diesel, I forget there name but they run on the same high compressoion and improved fuel savings...

reply to this comment

993Turbo - 3/9/2007 6:46:29 AM

+2 Boost

You people wanted the Democrat liberals and voted for them. Now you got them!

reply to this comment

truckmen - 3/9/2007 5:15:02 PM

+1 Boost

This is a bunch of politicians that can't think for themselves! The enviroment is definatly important and we all need to do our part, Europe does this by increasing inshurance rates for more horse power.How about just set the standard at 35pmg and have as many HP as you can get as long as it still gets 35mpg! Is that too tough to figure out! Would they limit HP on an electric car? They still get paid no matter how dumb they are!

reply to this comment

huu76 - 3/9/2007 7:52:55 PM

0 Boost

Chewy,
Please read my posts carefully. I did make a mistake though, it's 71 city/67 highway.
http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObjects/WWW.woa/18/wo/Home.Vehicles.Prius-6EBJuSsbYZzn3BtNd33jKg/3.11?v169040e%2ehtml#FUEL

www.toyota.ca
FUEL ECONOMY L/100 Km (mpg)
Fuel Consumption Rating [City/Highway]

4.0/4.2 (71/67)

It's still EPA, but it should still push the current 45mpg real world up to 50mpg.

Prius and TDI get 30% more mileage, but one uses SIGNIFICANTLY less oil. The Prius is basically a hybrid Corolla anyway.

Left over oil. Yeah, so all the filth left over is pumped into the air. It could be used to make asphalt and petrochemicals instead.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 3/9/2007 8:02:14 PM

0 Boost

Chewy,
That 10% more energy you refer to is most efficient for towing.

i.e. Sweat represents emissions and the same amount of water comes out that goes in.

Take a 150lb guy running with a 50lb pack. Say it's a piece of cake for him and he needs 2L of water on a 5km jog. He represents gasoline.
Now take a 200lb guy (more dense so to speak) who can just as easily carry the 50lb pack, but he needs 3L of water to run the 5km jog. He can just as easily jog carrying 100lbs. He represents diesel.
Now, which guy is more efficient if all you need him to do is jog 5km with a 50lb bag (sort of like a daily commute).

A hybrid guy would be 100lbs pulling a wagon. He needs 2L of water to run 5km but can pull 100lbs on the wagon.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 3/9/2007 8:03:57 PM

0 Boost

Inversely, the hybrid guy could jog the 5km pulling 50lbs and need only 1L of water, and thereby perspiring out 1L of sweat.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 3/9/2007 8:04:18 PM

0 Boost

My analogy clear?

reply to this comment

BMW740Z4 - 3/10/2007 1:02:14 AM

+1 Boost

Goddamn Dem's at it again. How many times do we have to tell them - STOP STEALING OUR MONEY AND TAKING AWAY OUR RIGHTS - LEAVE US ALONE!!!

reply to this comment

AdmiralT20 - 3/10/2007 11:46:29 PM

+1 Boost

I wish this is the most critical issue the country is facing- shame...
I would expect them to figure out a way to resolve the serious issues we face today:
1. IRAQ and the Security of this country.
2. Health Care system.
3. Education system
4. Future economic growth of the Country.

And what are they talking about- limiting HP on cars, how will this impact the country directly.
Shame,shame,shame..

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