Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at Nurburgring

TurboSpyder submitted on 09/30/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 9:04 AM
from: carsguide.news.com.au

[180] user comments | category: Misc News

Tags: Porsche, 911 Turbo, GT2, Nissan GT-R

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Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at Nurburgring

30 September 2008
Paul Gover

Porsche has accused Nissan of cheating in the GT-R's record bid at the Nurburgring racetrack.

Porsche has just run its own back-to-back tests with the Japanese company's GT-R supercar and says it could not get within 25 seconds of Nissan's claimed record time of seven minutes 29 seconds in April.

It also found its 911 Turbo and GT2 were both quicker than the GT-R.

"This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car," says August Achleitner, the 911 product chief for Porsche, speaking to the CARSguide at the Australian press preview of the latest 911 Cabrio.

"For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tyres."

He believes the time achieved by Nissan with ex-Formula One driver Toshio Suzuki would only be possible with a semi-slick race-style tyre.

Achleitner says Porsche took a standard GT-R, running on regular road tyres, and ran it around the Nurburgring within two hours of its own cars, on the same day with exactly the same weather conditions.

He says there was no tweaking of any kind and the GT2 and Turbo both ran on regular Porsche road tyres, the Michelin Sport Cup.

"We bought the car in the US. We drove a GT-R with new tyres," he says.

Achleitner was initially protective of the exact lap times, which were run during a program when Porsche also compared its upcoming four-door Panamera with a range of potential rivals.

But he eventually revealed his team clocked the GT-R at 7 minutes 54 seconds, with the 911 Turbo managing 7:38 and the GT2 getting down to 7:34.

The laps were not run by Porsche's usual hot-lap specialist, former world rally champion and race winner Walter Rohrl, but one of the company's chassis development engineers who is an expert on the Nurburgring.

Achleitner says the back-to-back comparison was run because Porsche was concerned by Nissan's claims for the GT-R, which is heavier than the 911 with similar power.

"The Nissan is a good car. I don't want to make anything bad with my words," he says.

"It's a very consistent car. But this car is about 20 kilos heavier than the Turbo . . ."

In the end, Porsche believes its testing has achieved the right lap times for the Skyline GT-R and benchmarked it against its own 911 heroes in the right context.

"For us it has been clearly the result. This technical puzzle now fits together. With the other numbers we had problems to understand it," he says. Read Article

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HSCenterconsole - 9/30/2008 9:56:52 AM

+17 Boost

I would like to see an independent car magazine run all of these cars (ZR1, GT-R, 911 Turbo) on the Ring in stock form to verify the claims.

reply to this comment

dlin - 9/30/2008 10:31:09 AM

-3 Boost

Haven't you seen enough of these tests?

Nature of the Nurburgring would only make GT-R stand out more, since it corners better and exits faster than Porsche due to its smarter AWD, and front engein layout.

Now it's time to put a twin turbo and maybe AWD on Cayman, then we'll see.

993Turbo - 9/30/2008 10:45:45 AM

+2 Boost

OUCH!

dlin - 9/30/2008 11:03:33 AM

-11 Boost

"The laps were not run by Porsche's usual hot-lap specialist, Walter Rohrl, but one of the company's chassis development engineers".

How many years have we all seen NISSAN testing GT-R there and how many hours have this Kraut been w/ GT-R? And 7:38 is by Walter right?

So who's cheating now? :)

Kraut_god - 9/30/2008 11:21:57 AM

-7 Boost

the GTR beats the 911 in every comparo. porsche is weak.

TurboSpyder - 9/30/2008 11:44:55 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

It's not any more acceptable to call Germans "krauts" than it is to call Japanese "nips". Please refrain from doing so in the future.

SenSpeed - 9/30/2008 3:00:09 PM

+3 Boost

get your head out of the sand....watch Top Gear

1995e34 - 9/30/2008 6:05:36 PM

+1 Boost

dlin, awd on the cayman would ruin it.

dlin - 9/30/2008 8:52:10 PM

+1 Boost

That's why I said maybe, and AUDI already done that.

I'm totally for MR.

crackityjones - 10/2/2008 12:52:27 PM

+2 Boost

I trust Porsche on this.

StarSearch - 9/30/2008 10:06:46 AM

-13 Boost

this must be legit because Porsche > GT-R...wait, what happens if the GT-R WAS actually faster....then Porsche can no longer lay claim to the title. So they "drive" the Nissan and wouldn't you know it, it's actually SLOWER!!

Yet the other day, a TL is NO WAY the fastest in it's class...because it was tested at an Acura event.

Hypocrisy Thy Name Is Autospies!

reply to this comment

steve27t - 9/30/2008 12:29:39 PM

+3 Boost

Ah yes, but both Acura and Nissan designed the original tests. So maybe both these were biased in favour of their vehicles?

StarSearch - 9/30/2008 1:40:33 PM

0 Boost

right, and who do you think drove the Porsches to get THEIR numbers? Yup, Team Porsche. It's hilarious, others stated the SAME thing and got boosted, I make a valid comparison between this and the Acura flap and it suddenly means 10 deboosts!

You honestly think we'd see an article where Porsche drivers acknowledge that yes, a competitor had a better time and it was fair and square??!!

Was there a half day at school today??

_43LE - 9/30/2008 1:42:59 PM

0 Boost

StarSearch, welcome to the reality of Autospies and many of its members.

S4cabriofoxone - 10/1/2008 12:23:20 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I was thinking the same thing--how is this any more true when Porsche does it? Seems conspicuous.

Like the first poster said, I'd love to see this done by a (very skilled) magazine.

MeanVulcan - 10/1/2008 12:23:23 PM

0 Boost

it is clear, though not evident, that other OEMs will test the competition's cars to verify their claims. In this case, Porsche found major discrepancies with the times reported by Nissan. Porsche's reputation is at stake if they biased their GT-R times, other OEMs I'm sure have also verified these times. If we do not hear otherwise from anyone, I totally believe that Porsche has made a fair claim.

As far as Acura ... (what is that?)... I don't buy Japanese action figures, thanks.

Porschinator - 10/2/2008 1:49:03 PM

+1 Boost

Interesting to see if any can claim ZR-1 #s which will be the new King of the Ring.

sector - 9/30/2008 10:11:27 AM

+3 Boost

hahaha, I thought German car fans were whiners, I see they take after their master and overlords :)

Every magazine/journalists and the tests they've done since GT-R was available resulted in a win for GT-R. end of story.

I guess Porsche sales are down :(

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 10/1/2008 12:24:26 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

They are, quite a bit in fact. It's a fine time to get a deal on a Porsche sports car. :)

Ironically, Nissan can boast that it's one of the few brands that has seen sales increases this year.

guambombboy - 9/30/2008 10:21:18 AM

+8 Boost

So I guess they can explain why the GTR was faster than the Porsches on tracks from other places as well. Including the Top Gear track.

reply to this comment

dlin - 9/30/2008 10:25:11 AM

+6 Boost

EXACTLY.

IN EVERY TEST, OTHER THAN 1/4 MILE, PORSCHE LOSES.

Star - 9/30/2008 10:49:50 AM

Show Comment -15 Boost

S30GTR - 9/30/2008 11:00:05 AM

+9 Boost

HEY STAR, YOU SEEM LIKE YOU'RE SO SURE OF WHAT YOU SAY YET YOU'VE BEEN PROVEN WRONG OVER AND OVER AGAIN. DO YOU HAVE POOF THAT THIS EVENT REALLY DID HAPPEN. WE NEED IT.

qweasdzxc - 9/30/2008 11:10:21 AM

+7 Boost

STAR lies and everyone here knows it. Just another EL34 type of JOKE.

Star - 9/30/2008 11:15:54 AM

-10 Boost

S30GTR,

Why are you LYING? Nobody EVER..EVER proved me wrong here. Not ONE time. It is understandable though since I was NEVER wrong. Better luck next time bud...to Nissan too. LOL..

Htay7500 - 9/30/2008 11:47:25 AM

+5 Boost

"All the Japanese car brands do, is cheat and copy. Their cheaply built, under-engineered, mediocre products are only desired by people who either don't care what they drive or just don't have any idea what a good car is."

You're certainly the reason why German cars and car fans look bad. Snobby, narcissistic, and ignorant. Good job. Keep that ignorance up.

steve27t - 9/30/2008 12:33:04 PM

+4 Boost

since I was NEVER wrong.

Hey, Star, I have a good job for you, you obviously have ALL the credentials...... PRESIDENT!!!

pcar4evr - 9/30/2008 1:07:41 PM

0 Boost

Guess Porsche got one of those 12.5 sec 1/4 mile GTR's that we've seen in the mags. Maybe ya gotta check the "cheat" option on the order form to get the 'ring killer.

Nobody except fanboys could possible accept the original Nissan 'ring claim. It was so illogical that only idiots could believe it. Now both BMW and Porsche have published that the Nissan claim is a lie.
A stock 3900lb 480 hp hogzilla, doesn't lap the 'ring in the times claimed by Nissan

dlin - 9/30/2008 4:49:44 PM

+2 Boost

What GT-R loses in horsepower and weight, it makes up in corners.

And there are plenty of difficult corners at Nurb, right?

Gennissen - 10/1/2008 4:51:58 AM

+4 Boost

STAR, u are becoming the german car fan equivalent of MichaelTaylor. I'm sure we all remember the obnoxious MT. Anyways, I'm a fan of german cars but star, you're killing me man. face the facts and applaud nissan for their efforts.

MeanVulcan - 10/1/2008 6:11:05 PM

+1 Boost

umm, the variable is not the track, its the non-production setup.

MeanVulcan - 10/1/2008 6:11:16 PM

+1 Boost

umm, the variable is not the track, its the non-production setup of the Nissan.

bigmotov - 9/30/2008 10:29:24 AM

+5 Boost

This is definitely not the way to boost your image after you get a knocked out in a fight....especially when sales ARE down. It looks deparate, it's not concrete evidence and still leaves too much to speculation. In the end, it's just free advertising for the GTR and publicizes just how good the GTR really is.

reply to this comment

stone - 9/30/2008 10:40:14 AM

+17 Boost

Wow,

I am a little disappointed, I really expected Porsche to come back and beat the GTR lap time, not make excuses. The GTR has beaten the 911 more than once, on more than one track so this argument holds no weight. Perhaps, their driver is not as good driving the GTR as the Nissan driver, there are so many variables. Porsche you have the money and the resources so just beat the GTR, if you can. I mean you car does cost 50K more........

Stone

reply to this comment

w209w114 - 9/30/2008 10:43:39 AMView My AgentSpace

+12 Boost

SOLUTION: The Nurburging should have its own independednt testing committee to test the official times of each car.

Anyone can make up numbers, and unfortunately automakers aren't as honest as we would like to think they are.

reply to this comment

_43LE - 9/30/2008 11:04:36 AM

+7 Boost

Completely agree. Anyhow, these pull-out-your-ruler comparisons are getting a little tiresome.

That being said, the vast majority of comparisons that I've read claim that the GT-R is faster than the turbo. One would think that a clear trend has started to emerge. Posting something like the article is a little like grasping at straws.

S30GTR - 9/30/2008 10:50:57 AM

+3 Boost

DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHERE TO GET THIS COMPARO VIDEO WHERE PORSCHE CLAIMS THE GT-R IS SLOWER. THEY MUST HAVE SOME EVIDENCE I WOULD SUPPOSE.

reply to this comment

GTR35 - 9/30/2008 11:18:13 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Of course there is no proof and if there was it is obvious that Porsche didn't run the GTR to its full potential. Not only will they need to disprove the Ring's time but the time of every racetrack allover the globe, where the 911 has lost repetitively. I find this claim to be very Hysterical, I'VE LOST ALL RESPECT FOR PORSCHE.
I can't believe they actually went trough the trouble to lie in order to make their 911 look better than the GTR. What they need to do is improve their engineering and create something faster than the Nissan and continue with this fun game, or else it just seems that they are giving up.

Porsche, Stop your whining and get back to work.

holmstar - 9/30/2008 11:02:56 AMView My AgentSpace

+6 Boost

think about it... This is a Porsche engineer... He/she drives Porsche cars all day long, but rarely if ever gets experience in a GTR. I'm not surprised at all that this engineer is not nearly as fast in the GTR... He/she isn't used to it, so they didint push it as hard as they pushed the porsche models. Let's just get the best porsche driver and best GTR driver to show up on the same day and end the debate.

reply to this comment

Agent63 - 9/30/2008 11:06:16 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

I don't care what this article said. Even if it wasn't posted, an associate of mine dyno'd his GT-R in Phoenix, AZ. It came out at 510bp. An independent dynanometer some time ago also did a test where the GT-R produced 416 hp. So does this mean the cars not consistent with their numbers claimed? that's nearly 100hp difference. Even if they were wrong could it be that much off!?

GT-R is awesome and I appreciate it but I sure hope the Nissan boys aren't being shady. Porsche doesn't have a reason to lie, they are a huge company that has ownerships beyond automobiles, believe me :)

reply to this comment

sector - 9/30/2008 11:14:30 AM

+1 Boost

"Porsche doesn't have a reason to lie"

They have every reason to lie, their flagship got dusted by a competitor costing half as much. If it wasn't for the badge whores, they would be on a sinking ship.

Star - 9/30/2008 11:27:39 AM

-12 Boost

Claiming that a Nissan is a Porsche competitor is like saying that a Toyota Avalon is a Bentley competitor. The badge on a Porsche is worth something because it comes with the assurance that you get one of the most fantastic cars ever built.

The badge on the Nissan on the other hand assures you that what you get is an under-engineered, cheaply built POS that will not last long and of course will never match the overrated performance specs and claims.

sector - 9/30/2008 11:57:11 AM

+9 Boost

Keep dreaming Star you sound like a broken record.

GT-R is much more exclusive car than 997. Its major components like gearbox, engine, drive train are hand assembled by one of 20 or so highly trained engineers in a clean room on a specialized jig like how prototype racers are built. It has a special transaxle layout that places dual-clutch transmission that shifts faster than a GT2 race car in the rear of the car to offer better balance, has nitrogen filled tires etc... It is essentially a piece of art under the aluminum hood. Learn to respect the car for what it is not what badge it wears.

Oh and GT-R not only beats on the 997 on the track it also beats on the most expensive car Porsche has:

Top Gear track times by the stig:

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS

Who's laughing now? Haha

abcd - 9/30/2008 12:21:05 PM

+4 Boost

"an associate of mine dyno'd his GT-R in Phoenix, AZ. It came out at 510bp. An independent dynanometer some time ago also did a test where the GT-R produced 416 hp. So does this mean the cars not consistent with their numbers claimed? that's nearly 100hp difference. Even if they were wrong could it be that much off!?"

I think you can`t distinguish WHEEL horsepower from ENGINE horsepower .

Star - 9/30/2008 12:34:37 PM

-9 Boost

auto001,

let me educate you a little. The badge is what tells you about the quality of a product and there is no way around it. If Nissan would build better cars than Porsche, then the Nissan badge would be more valuable than the one from the Porsche. Is called logic.

I see SONY on a television and I trust it for quality because I know that SONY put that emblem as a pledge for quality. I see the Porsche emblem on their car and I know is Porsche pledge for quality.

But when I see cars with Hyundai or Nissan badges I know quality and engineering took a big step back since these are brands that cater to the masses who cannot afford the REAL thing. There is no such thing as bad cars with desirable badges or good cars with s**ty badges. Every single quality product in the world has a badge that represents their pledge for quality in front of customers. The absolutely stupidest thing in the world is to claim that products that have bad name are in fact better quality than the brands that stand for the highest quality.

Get over the ghetto attitude towards products that stand for excellence. Just because YOU can't afford it doesn't mean is not worth the money. Give me a car that drives like a Porsche and I will take it no matter who made it. The problem is that ONLY Porsche can make a car that drives that good and that's the reason their badge and their car are worth their weight in gold.

StarSearch - 9/30/2008 1:51:22 PM

-3 Boost

...and yet the Cayenne rarely beats either the X5 or Range Rover, the Boxster has often been referred to as a "poor man's 911" and reception has been lukewarm at best for their 4-door sedan.

Should I bother getting into why the 944, 914, 924 or 928 were phased out?

pcar4evr - 9/30/2008 1:52:23 PM

+2 Boost

hey auto001 fanboy. Even that blowhard Clarkson commented that he didn't believe that the car they tested had the quoted hp. Clearly, Stig drove another GTR ringer.

SenSpeed - 9/30/2008 3:05:07 PM

-2 Boost

everyone's reputation starts from somewhere...for Nissan international reputation of quality and performance starts now.

Star - 9/30/2008 3:14:26 PM

-6 Boost

It appears that their reputation as LIARS will start to grow...before anything else. LOL...

Lexurious - 9/30/2008 8:52:40 PM

+1 Boost

lol its not even badgewhoring. it's passion and appreciation of technologies. porsche is a small company but they have a lot of money and they own themselves. nissan is owned by renault or somethin? nissan cars are poor quality and wish they were as good as honda and toyota.

porsche owns the vw group.

yall always bring up the half the price thing vs porsche.. so that means people who buy nissans are poor and cant afford the true exotic. the gtr will be sitting in lots across the nation alongside other nissan sentras and quests. the porsches will sit alongside other exotics like ferraris, lambo, aston, and the likes. you guys are so funny. playstation geeks really love to defend a car theyll never drive.

MeanVulcan - 10/1/2008 6:27:31 PM

+1 Boost

it seems that some people here find foreign the fact that respected companies will do anything to MAINTAIN their reputation and thus would never resort to unethical or questionable practices. Just because some people here have shady ethics does not mean a well respected company like Porsche will resort to the same thing.

I'd like a valid explanation of why GT-Rs are coming out with so much variance in hp dyno measurements. So many are so quick to trash Porsche but lack facts to prove a consistent hp for the GT-R.

It's sad that Nissan has to resort to shady practices. I had for the longest time respected the GT-R but now I question their practices. Some will do ANYTHING to beat a Porsche.

Porschinator - 10/2/2008 4:28:38 PM

+1 Boost

For Auto1 - Where did Stig get the GT-R? Nissan? If so it was a 'fixed' version.

answer - 9/30/2008 11:28:23 AMView My AgentSpace

+6 Boost

Porsche has a long and respected past.

I'm hoping whining and false accusations aren't going to be part of its future.

reply to this comment

Star - 9/30/2008 11:34:03 AM

-11 Boost

The only problem is...the accusations are NOT false and acting like a Nissan fanboi cannot change that REALITY. We ALL know that Nissan CHEATED!

StarSearch - 9/30/2008 3:14:45 PM

+2 Boost

...because a couple of Porsche drivers said so. NOT people that have no stake in this, but Porsche employees who also represent the current Ring leader aka PORSCHE!!!

I bet if this was BMW or MB making this claim, you wouldn't even question it. The same way you don't question why BMW understated their HP numbers for the 335i even though it's been dyno'd at almost 330-340, NOT 306.

If you're so rich then why don't you have a 911 as a daily driver, or even weekend car? I mean, Porsche is so great, we can all assume you currently own one, right?

TurboSpyder - 9/30/2008 11:39:07 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

"But (chief engineer) Mizuno suggested the GT-R could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58."

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/FREE/71017001/1065

Those lap times are just what Porsche is saying that they get when testing the GT-R but they're way off the 7:29 that Nissan later claimed they got.

reply to this comment

_43LE - 9/30/2008 5:19:53 PM

0 Boost

Desperado, why dont you come to your senses?
You been out ridin fences for so long now
Oh, youre a hard one
I know that you got your reasons
These things that are pleasin you
Can hurt you somehow

Porschinator - 10/2/2008 4:19:01 PM

+1 Boost

Wouldn't go that far....

reply to this comment

montyz81 - 9/30/2008 11:48:10 AM

+4 Boost

Isn't the American spec GT-R slower then the JDM spec GT-R? The record that Nissan achieved was in a JDM spec GT-R. This one is a US spec GT-R. Try the test again I say. Also, invite Nissan to come and test it with Porsche. Have the Porsche folks review the GT-R while the Nissan folks review the Porsche. They race and then see who wins. Then have an independent company do the same to both. The results will then speak for themselves.

reply to this comment

Designer1 - 9/30/2008 11:53:53 AM

+1 Boost

It seems actually that Porsche determined that they PROVED that they LOST and now are trying to covert it up.

Almost all magazine have tested the GT-R and found it to be a faster car than the Porsche, so its too later for Porsche to come out now after months and say this crap.

The GT-R was faster in the old days, it is now, and it will always be, period.

reply to this comment

abcd - 9/30/2008 12:13:55 PM

+1 Boost

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup are competition-oriented tyres , they`re standard on such a cars like the VIPER ACR .
Porsche 911 Turbo comes in standard with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 , much less competition oriented , not Sport Cup which they say they used .

reply to this comment

abcd - 9/30/2008 12:35:45 PM

-1 Boost

And Porsche 911 turbo is about 330 pounds more than GT-R , which is about 150 kiligrams , not 20 kilograms like they say .

TurboSpyder - 9/30/2008 12:47:18 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Here's an article from 2006 that says "Porsche are now offering a special derivative of the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyre as factory fitted alternative rubber" on the 911 turbo.

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=105&i=13825

-

And according to Edmunds, the GT-R has a curb weight of 3836 lbs and the 911 turbo has a curb eight of 3494 lbs so the 911 turbo weighs 342 lbs *less* than the GT-R.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/nissan/gtr/100986601/specs.html

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/porsche/911/100968287/specs.html

abcd - 9/30/2008 12:50:14 PM

+4 Boost

My mistake , I wanted to write that 911 Turbo is about 330 pounds LESS of course than GT-R .

abcd - 9/30/2008 12:52:02 PM

+3 Boost

Which is 150 kilos not 20 like they say .

TurboSpyder - 9/30/2008 1:18:35 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Which was exactly Porsche's point when they said in the article

"Achleitner says the back-to-back comparison was run because Porsche was concerned by Nissan's claims for the GT-R, which is heavier than the 911 with similar power."

TurboSpyder - 9/30/2008 1:20:47 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Engineering puzzle solved:

"'For us it has been clearly the result. This technical puzzle now fits together. With the other numbers we had problems to understand it,' he says."

abcd - 9/30/2008 1:37:39 PM

+1 Boost

Yes , TurboSpyder , but have they said intentionally that 20 kilos or is it only a mistake . And that Michelin Sport Cup tyres are practically racing tyres allowed for road , while GT-R`s Dunlop SP Sport all-season tyres are less stick , not to mention GT-R`s optional Bridstone Potenza which are less stick on dry than Dunlop SP Sport , maybe they even used Bridstones , they don`t tell that .

abcd - 9/30/2008 1:46:00 PM

+1 Boost

Even Nissan said that they were doing almost ten seconds slower nurburgring lap times using Bridgestones than on Dunlops 7:29 lap time .

abcd - 9/30/2008 1:47:14 PM

+1 Boost

On dry , on wet Bridgestones are better .

E36er - 9/30/2008 12:14:38 PM

+6 Boost

Oh have the mighty fallen. This is so beneath Porsche to accuse such a thing when just about every comparison shows exactly the opposite. I really , really, thought Porsche had more dignity than this. Now they’re sounding like a poor looser. This is so un-German it’s shocking. You don’t hear the Japanese going around whining about other manufacturers cheating when they loose. Instead of whining about it, Porsche should build a faster car and shut Nissan down. That would be the gentlemanly thing to do. That would be the Porsche thing to do.

reply to this comment

222max - 9/30/2008 12:36:44 PM

+2 Boost

Exactly.

1dott8 - 9/30/2008 1:10:26 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

the word is loser not "looser".

Star - 9/30/2008 1:19:13 PM

-7 Boost

"You don’t hear the Japanese going around whining about other manufacturers cheating when they loose"

That's because NOBODY except the Japanese is CHEATING. The GT-R is grossly overrated and we can see that the truth is coming to light. SHAME ON YOU, NISSAN!!!

E36er - 9/30/2008 5:07:56 PM

+2 Boost

thanks 1dott8, yes it should be loser.

222max - 9/30/2008 12:35:03 PM

0 Boost

And what does that have to do with this?

reply to this comment

1uberaudi - 9/30/2008 12:40:35 PM

-7 Boost

Star is correct. My feelings??? Read all of Stars comments. Nissan GT-R/Porsche GT2--Hyundai Genesis/BMW 7 series. Anymore rediculous comparisons?!?!!?

reply to this comment

Star - 9/30/2008 12:35:04 PM

-8 Boost

sector - 9/30/2008 1:18:32 PM

+6 Boost

Nice try, you just wasted your time regurgitating the dictionary definition of what brand and imaging is all about. Let me school you a little.

Branding is a tool used by product of markers to distinguish their product. What a badge whore like you fail to realize is that there are two components to branding, the experimental and psychological. Experimental because you can quantify i.e., performance numbers, track times etc. and psychological because of the "perception" or "experience" that is created by a individual themselves. Yes the two halves can align themselves for a particular brand i.e., talk the talk and walk the walk sort of speak, but this isn't always the case because since a lowly Nissan(as perceived by you and other fanboys to be inferior) can come out with a superior product like the GT-R that can crush an offering by the "well established" and almighty Porsche, as witnessed by test after test by independent sources. So by your logic (since you always equate brand=excellence and excellence=brand) a product like GT-R couldn't be possible as you say all Nissan's are POS, at half the price might I add. And that's from a performance perspective, and don't even talk about Porsche is superior on tech or luxury front as they don't even offer push-button start, Bluetooth, iPod integration, keyless entry etc and luxury is just a couple of more dead cows separating separating Porsche and GT-R. So the moral of the story is company's like Porsche and BMW can bank on imagine conscious shallows like yourselves to move inventory and line their pockets, since "they have you in the bag"

1dott8 - 9/30/2008 1:22:23 PMView My AgentSpace

-6 Boost

i never thought that i would say this on this site but that was the most educated post i've read on here thus far. fight the fight star.

	TurboSpyder Bilstein "DampTronic" traitors! http://www.oobject.com/category/top-10-soviet-technology-ripoffs/
	View My AgentSpace