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Porsche and VW Battle It Out: Who Will Win?
It was last Wednesday afternoon when two broad-shouldered men with shaved heads disappeared into a conference room. VW works council chairman Bernd Osterloh and Uwe Hück, Porsche's labor representative, were both stone-faced when they entered the Porsche booth at the International Automobile Exhibition (IAA) in Frankfurt. When they closed the door to the conference room, it almost seemed as if they were about to settle their dispute with their fists. The money would have been on Hück -- a two-time European champion in Thai boxing.

By all accounts, the discussion came off peacefully, but the dispute between the two labor leaders is only one of many conflicts between the Volkswagen Group and its new major shareholder, Porsche. Now that it's been two years since Stuttgart-based Porsche first acquired a stake in Volkswagen, the gloves appear to be coming off.

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Porsche and VW Battle It Out: Who Will Win?



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IamEvilHomerIamEvilHomer - 9/24/2007 6:00:50 PM
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what?

to repeat a dumb comment makes you sound like an idiot

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/24/2007 11:49:07 PMView My AgentSpace
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"Not sure where I ever quoted this statement in my previous comments. Care to point it out?"

Wow. This makes you look even more stupid.

EvilHomer meant that you were repeating the dumb comment Clarkson said.

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KingerKinger - 9/25/2007 4:57:29 AM
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Clarkson comes out will all kinds of crap, just to be funny. He's a funny guy but i wouldn't rely on him for car buying advice.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/25/2007 12:12:49 PMView My AgentSpace
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BTW, Xero, Clarkson owns the new 911 Turbo. Don't take anything he says seriously.

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528i528i - 9/24/2007 6:17:35 PMView My AgentSpace
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If Porsche take over, it will be a good image for Audi and the rest of the group.

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LexusLexus - 9/24/2007 6:22:56 PM
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If we were talking about prestige, they Porsche don't need to do anything, Porsche name speak and sales itself.

Currently Porsche is still King of supercars in the performance arena hand down no if or but.

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DaHarderDaHarder - 9/24/2007 6:42:59 PM
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The entire automotive group need first to figure out their respective places in the market-place, and stop trampling all over each other.

First VW goes upscale (with the Phaeton and overpriced 40k Passats) and pushes into Audi territory, and now Audi (with the R8) seeks to threaten Porsche's place as the groups sports car manufacturer, and soon Porsche will unveil the (unsightly) Panamera which will compete with the Audi S8...

CRAZINESS!


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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/24/2007 11:51:39 PMView My AgentSpace
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And somehow, they all balance each other out. It works.

When you want a Porsche, you want a Porsche- no questions asked. Buyers of a 911 Turbo wouldn't consider the R8, Gallardo or (especially not) Continental GT. The same is true of S8 vs. Panamera drivers- they are/will be quite different. S8 is more understated, luxurious, elegant. It just happens to have a Lamborghini V10 engine. That is very unlike the Porsche, in which the car is built to be a performance machine. It just happens to be a sedan. See what I mean?

The only ones that really don't make sense are expensive Passats and Phaetons. I love the Phaeton but I hate what it stands for.


mini22mini22 - 9/24/2007 7:11:17 PM
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Well overall VW is growing but not making the money it should. It is failing miserably in what should be it's largest market(the USA). There should be a tighter control over costs.There needs to be a plant in the US that makes most of its components (including engines). Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world. I hope they do gain 51%.At that point VW will be a very different company. Saying that Porsche has to be careful regarding design. It's new Panamera is not what I would call visually attractive. They have had to learn the hard way about making an SUV reliable for the masses. It will be interesting to see what happens.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/24/2007 11:53:49 PMView My AgentSpace
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"There needs to be a plant in the US that makes most of its components (including engines)."

I completely agree- this is what I have been saying. MAKE A US PLANT, VW! We don't need any more Jettas from Mexico! This is what ruins their image!

Anyway, I don't think anyone can comment on the Panamera until it is released. It would be hard for Porsche to screw a car up.


EnvyofyouRS5EnvyofyouRS5 - 9/24/2007 7:29:37 PM
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Audi doesnt need porsche as a big brother image IMO, and theyve been around much longer than VW. Audi can fend for themselves, They dont dip into VW sales to develop their cars. And the new le-mans conecpt R8 is one of the most desired cars out.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/24/2007 11:55:52 PMView My AgentSpace
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Honestly, I think it is Audi that should have VW, not the other way around. They are a more profitable, smarter, more progressive brand. They know what they want and how to get it. Their image is envied by all other luxury manufacturers- nobody says "Audi drivers are assholes," which is the stereotype for BMW/Merc/Range Rover drivers. And (out of breath), finally, they create amazing products. They look beautiful inside and out, perform extremely well and are actually reliable. VWUSA could learn a thing or two.


mini22mini22 - 9/24/2007 7:47:02 PM
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I would also have to say that while Porsche is a very profitable company it is a small company. It may be very different running a large company with many different brands. If Porsche gains 51% we should certainly see the selling off of certain brands that are not profitable or directly competing with Porsche. Certainly Lamborgini,Seat,or perhaps Skoda.These brands directly compete with Porsche and VW.Then as someone else mentioned the Audi R8. If I were Porsche I would sell Lambo,then reposition the R8 either well above the 911 or well below the 911. Right now it too close in direct competion to the 911.If you position it above the 911 then it should only have the V10. If below the 911 it should only have VW 3.6 V6.Supossedly the next Boxster/Cayman will be codeveloped with an R6 or R4.That makes more sense. The R8 potentially cannabolizes 911 sales as it is right now. If it is repositioned to cost Ferrari F430 money then Porsche can stay in their market niche.If they cannot reposition the R8 then they should drop it.The VW Phaeton has been a total failure for VW. It's too expensive to produce and flopped in the US. VW is not Audi and never should be. The 4dr Passat Coupe is a mistake if priced too high over the sedan. Why is Seat not making money?Maybe they should sell it to the Spanish government and let it be nationalized.Audi should be gold for Porsche. But Porsche should have developed a RWD/AWD with Audi to defray costs.It would be concerning to me the amount of negative press on styling of my ambitious development projects in company history.I see the need for Porsche to make a move because they need to be able to average in their corporate fuel and emmissions to satisfy the EU 2012 regs. They had better be careful,however.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/25/2007 12:00:55 AMView My AgentSpace
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"f I were Porsche I would sell Lambo,then reposition the R8 either well above the 911 or well below the 911. Right now it too close in direct competion to the 911.If you position it above the 911 then it should only have the V10. If below the 911 it should only have VW 3.6 V6.Supossedly the next Boxster/Cayman will be codeveloped with an R6 or R4.That makes more sense. The R8 potentially cannabolizes 911 sales as it is right now. If it is repositioned to cost Ferrari F430 money then Porsche can stay in their market niche.If they cannot reposition the R8 then they should drop it."

Well, it's not up to Porsche to sell Lamborghini. It is an Audi-owned company. Porsche could easily pressure Audi to do it with the threat that they would be sold off- but to be honest, I don't think it would be the worst possible thing if they were an independent company. Like BMW, they wouldn't have to be compromised by preset platforms for their smaller cars.

Although, I still don't think this should happen. Audi and VW... are just Audi and VW. Two peas in a pod.

As for the R8? Most R8 buyers wouldn't consider 911s and vice versa. At that price, you know what you want. I don't think Porsche really has a direct competitor to the R8 right now. You could say 911 Turbo- but it's more expensive and more powerful. The C4S is not quite fast enough, although it can easily be optioned to be more expensive than the R8.

If the R8 had a V6... no. Nonononononononono. That will never happen. Where would that leave the TT? The A5/S5? THE R8?!? V10 would be the only reasonable option. But I don't think Porsche would do this- they respect the engineering effort Audi has put into this car.



EnvyofyouRS5EnvyofyouRS5 - 9/24/2007 8:58:44 PM
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Mini You prove ver valid points, Although a v6 R8 would take away from its Pure Audi Track inspired image. It's like ferrari giving their next car 400HP, a big upset...

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SixxFiveSixxFive - 9/25/2007 12:13:44 AM
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Interesting article - the Porsche business model makes sense while the VW Group seems to be out of touch with reality in most markets.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/25/2007 12:15:18 PMView My AgentSpace
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"...the Porsche business model makes sense while the VW Group seems to be out of touch with reality in most markets."

If you think of the US as "most markets," then it's you who is out of touch. VW is still the most successful brand in Europe, and Audi leads for luxury brands in China while being ahead of all but Mercedes-Benz in Europe.

And you can't forget Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti. I'd say that the last three are... fairly high-profile in the US, LOL.


mini22mini22 - 9/25/2007 1:01:56 PM
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You know they way Porsche charges for it's options a Carrera 4S is not too far away in cost to an R8. An R8 costs roughly $125,000. Optioning out a C4S and you''re pushing $110,000. So I think in reality they do compete. If Porsche does gain 51% of the shares they will force dramatic changes.High profile is fine if you're making money. We know that Bugatti is clearly not making money for VW. Lamborghini may be starting to make some money,Bentley is doing well.Skoda is taking sales away from VW in Europe and Seat is not making money. Too much diversification can skew profits. VW simply has too many name plates that overlap each other.And I think thats the key. What ever companies VW keeps should not compete with VW and Audi or Porsche.Those should be the core companies.The others should simply add to the profitability. For sure Bugatti and Seat should be sold. Skoda needs to go more down market so not to compete with VW. Lamborghini perhaps should stay provided they keep a very high market niche. Bentley is a definete money maker and a prestigis brand to compete with Rolls and Maybach. If Porsche keeps Lambo then I cannot see the point of the R8 or R8 V10. It simply confuses the market place and its a limited production vehicle anyway.An R6 or R4(mid engined) which is being developed along with the Cayman/Boxster replacement makes more sense as they would be positioned below the cheapest Porsche and use only VW engines.Of course then once the R6 and R4 come to the market there is no point in the TT.That technology should go to VW (Sirroco)or the A3 replacement and the new A1(Mini competitor).I'm talking about the light weight aluminum that helps shift the weight distribution on the new TT.The core VW products that should be built in a US factory are the Tiguan SUV,the new Camry competitor and the new Civic/Corolla competitor.

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07mcs07mcs - 9/25/2007 6:58:23 PM
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mini22:

Are you from Yorba Linda, CA?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/25/2007 11:08:52 PMView My AgentSpace
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The R8 is $109K and with normal options it's about $115K. That is, of course, the MSRP, which you can't get right now. It makes the C4S look way overpriced.

I really hope Porsche doesn't touch Audi. They're better off.


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 9/25/2007 11:11:00 PMView My AgentSpace
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To add:

"If Porsche keeps Lambo then I cannot see the point of the R8 or R8 V10."

No, no, no, no, nononononono. Audi definitely considered this (obviously), because they own Lamborghini, not VW. The R8 and Gallardo don't really compete. The Lamborghini is a good $65K more. However, I think the R8 is the better car, with hotter, more cohesive looks, a better interior, better handling and a much better price.


carguy1963carguy1963 - 9/25/2007 7:35:44 PM
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Porsche, Audi, and VW have alot of history together. Going all the way back to the pre WWII days. I'm sure
everything will work itself out.

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