Rumour Mill: BMW Ditching SMG to Follow VW's Leading Edge

Agent009 submitted on 10/04/2006 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 11:11 AM
from: www.autospies.com

Tags: BMW SMG DSG

BMW SMG DSG

Rumour Mill: BMW Ditching SMG to Follow VW's Leading Edge

One thing about being a spy is that you sometimes overhear conversations that surprise you.

One of particular interest, was a recent discussion between two automotive insiders concerning BMW. With my earphones in and electrical gadgets ablaze, I slipped in silently, and quickly gathered the following from their private conversation.

It seems the BMW has approached, and brokered a deal with Borg Warner, to supply the legendary Munich automaker their new twin-clutch transmissions. These twin clutch gearboxes are part of an overall plan to phase out the much-maligned SMG transmissions currently in production.

The reason for the monumental switch?

While the SMG design may be a technical marvel, its real life performance simply wasn’t up to par with the rest of the vehicle, and it tended to detract more than aide in the overall driving experience.

The Borg Warner twin-clutch designs are currently in production by VW and Audi and marketed as the Direct Shift Gearbox (DSG).

Porsche has also indicated they will be an option in the near future on select models.

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S4cabriofox - 10/4/2006 5:19:54 PM

+3 Boost

Oh, no, logical! BMW is copying the "cheap-ass" Volkswagen! What is this world coming to???

I hate to say I told you so.

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IamEvilHomer - 10/5/2006 1:30:19 AM

0 Boost

don't forget they also copied Audi on AWD, Bi-turbo, Tiptronic, FSI, dising of the new X5

And the hits keep on comming

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IamEvilHomer - 10/5/2006 1:31:11 AM

+1 Boost

design :)

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Spoonie_G - 10/5/2006 9:27:04 AM

+1 Boost

Audi didn't event Bi-turbo motors. I remember Toyota had a twin turbo (supra)back in 1994, and the Mazda RX7 Turbo also in the early nineties. So Audi copied Toyota and Mazda?

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Yonder7 - 10/4/2006 11:41:01 AM

+3 Boost

This a logil step for BMW. SMG is great for performance driving but most the people will not be driving their Bimers on a race track if not in regular roads and in that case that transmision is completly out of element.

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Rupert - 10/4/2006 12:38:02 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

" that transmision is completly out of its element."
you said it perfectly. normal driving does smg no justice.

PlanoA4 - 10/4/2006 11:46:21 AM

-1 Boost

Woo Hoo! BMW is finally figuring out that they don't lead the whole world in everything. Put a notch in the belt for VAG

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vcowman - 10/4/2006 11:53:08 AM

+2 Boost

dsg on an m3 owns

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S4cabriofox - 10/4/2006 10:18:18 PM

0 Boost

Really? Because I don't think you, or anyone else for that matter, has ever driven an M3 with a VAG DSG transmission.

GermanNut - 10/4/2006 11:58:14 AM

-3 Boost

That's right here goes BMW learning a thing from Audi. SMG is a technical marvel but its real world applicabiity is not what it was predicted to be.

We all knew the DSG was the best gearbox on the market and it is only fitting that BMW would switch over to it.

The SMG maybe race oriented and inspired but for people who drive their cars just around daily, here and there they don't need, and for that matter don't want a super race inspired herky jerky transmission.

The DSG will allow for smoothness and easier shifting in BMWs.

Something Audi has already implemented in their cars and the reviews show that the DSG is infact smoother, easier to use and more livable than the

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GermanNut - 10/4/2006 11:58:44 AM

0 Boost

SMG.

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smshnick - 10/4/2006 12:30:22 PM

+2 Boost

I loved the SMG on my M3, but I did drive the crap out of it all the time. I know someone who owns a Bugatti Veyron, and when they were test driving it in Europe, he said the DSG was flawless!!

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dsch_iter - 10/4/2006 2:28:08 PM

+2 Boost

Yes! BMW finally admitted its SMG is dissapointing. Now all you people who loved to dry hump BMW logos, elaborate and defend BMW :-)

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vdiv - 10/4/2006 3:22:36 PM

+1 Boost

Oh, just because some of us like BMW overall does not mean we like everything BMW. SMG, Active steering, runflat tires, hideous and disfunctional current interior and exterior designs, scary reliability... the list goes on. And despite all of it BMW still has great automobiles.

GermanNut - 10/4/2006 2:33:51 PM

+1 Boost

If the Bugatti Veyron has DSG, it goes to show you that it is indeed the best gearbox currently available.

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supermoto - 10/4/2006 4:50:02 PM

+2 Boost

Nice to see BMW following Audi's lead in transmissions

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S4cabriofox - 10/4/2006 5:21:21 PM

+2 Boost

vdiv-

You mentioned a lot of BMW downfalls there; it sounds like they have more bad parts than good.

And yet you still love them?

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vdiv - 10/4/2006 5:38:31 PM

+1 Boost

They are quite addictive, have you tried one? The handling, the feel, the intelligence behind many functions set them apart (and really apart from some). Drivers and passengers feel spoiled and privileged inside, they feel safe and relaxed. No matter what your day is going to be or already was, when it is time to get in and go home or go on adventures, it always puts a smile on your face. It never gets old it never becomes mundane. The car always has something new, something exciting for you. Three years later I was still finding little features, little convenient hidden gems that someone thought out and put them in to make me feel special.

Few things in life rub me this way. I still love them.

Storm9 - 10/4/2006 5:55:33 PM

+1 Boost

Makes no sense!!!!

SMG III is Duel Cluth!!

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Storm9 - 10/4/2006 5:56:01 PM

+1 Boost

BS!!! False rumor!

Makes no sense!!!!

SMG III is Duel Cluth!!

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Rupert - 10/5/2006 11:02:36 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

smg means sequential manual gearbox. it is not a dual clutch.

adoptgreyhounds - 10/4/2006 6:56:12 PM

+2 Boost

Acutally Porsche first developed this type of gearbox back in the late 80's (?) for a Le Mans prototype.

But for modern purposes BMW is Following Audi/VW on this one. Let me be one of the first BMW fans to say it The DSG is the best Tranny in the Buisness right now, so let us have it too.

If you haven't driven a VWAG product with this box, do it right now. It is Epic.

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Parkinglot2 - 10/4/2006 7:22:08 PM

+1 Boost

i've tried the smg2 and audi dsg. dsg gears in faster than the smg and felt much better.

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DrCallosum - 10/4/2006 7:46:54 PM

+2 Boost

Good to see actually the SMG is good but i actually drove my mates RS4 and yes the DSG is ALOT smoother and better suited to normal life... As for copying AUDI no problems for there cause AUDI are doing some great things at the moment. I really think the day of BMW VS MERCEDES BENZ are over... I thhnks its now down to BMW VS AUDI and im happy for it cause its making BMW change and put emphasis on things they usually wouldn't (interior of new X5), styling of the new 7 (i like the current one but i think it justs says look at me im worth more then you house, Changing from SMG to DSG, including xDrive on all models and progressively making iDrive alot easier (even tho i found it a breeze after 2 weeks on my 745li)AND the big one that im really looking forward to is BMW matching the AUDI R8 which is going to be difficult but i think they can do... 3 years from now i can see TWO of the great automobiles of all time going head to head against each other... SO what i really mean is good work AUDI im a BMW man always have been always will be but that fact that i now consider you to BMW equal explains just how much of a move there making in the automotive industry...

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Rupert - 10/5/2006 11:04:11 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

after 2 weeks?
that was the point thats too long to get aclimatised. on my last gen 7 it took me one read of the manual and ta-da i understand the sat nav.

chewy - 10/4/2006 7:58:08 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

BMW follownig Volkswagen and Audi, once again.

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chewy - 10/4/2006 10:00:42 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

How was the SMG technically superior? The DSG is better because it is technically superior, no power loss like an automatic, no torque converter like a manual, all it takes is an extra clutch and a variation in the gearbox design, but the overall product is much better and more technologically superior to BMW's SMG.

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GrimREAPER - 10/5/2006 12:42:28 AM

+1 Boost

You just keep doing to yourself... Dumbass comment after Dumbass comment. Wow!! I've never seen anyone as intellectually handicapped as you appear to be.

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GermanNut - 10/4/2006 8:14:46 PM

0 Boost

Yes, logical you said it. The SMG maybe technically superior but the DSG is more practical. The Audi transmission is more practical than BMW's.

Thank you for admitting that BMW is indeed inferior to Audi when it comes down to making practical gearboxes. Well said and your newfound appreciation for Audi is welcomed.

The point is BMW is copying Audi's DSG transmission, you have admitted that point yourself. Thank you.

Whether BMW makes it better or not is a different story.

If it wasn't for Audi first implementing a better gearbox in their cars, BMW would not have had any reason to switch to the DSG and away from the SMG.

Why is BMW going to switch to DSG more than likely?.....because Audi has a MORE practical gearbox.

I don't care how technically superior the SMG is, if it can't be suitable for daily conditions it will not be looked upon favorably.

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DrCallosum - 10/4/2006 8:27:02 PM

+1 Boost

I think another worthy of mention is how long these transmissions will actually last... Because BMW's new 6 speed auto (which i believe is the best on offer) now changes gears 50 percent quicker (or is it 50 milliseconds quick??? lol cant remember) either way this is an impressive auto box you have to admit and if BMW can continue to mkae this auto a smooth shifting and extremely quick shifting box we might not even require these sort of boxes.... I'm really looking forward to seeing what transmission is on the new 7 series... any guessetimates out there??? Either way AUDI DSG is far superior to BMW SMG... but i BELIEVE BMWS quick shifting 6 SPEED automatic is superior to anything... The proof is have is that this 6 speed ZF was included on local ford falcons over the old 4 speed box... and believe me the improvement in fuel economy performance and overall drivability was amazing... Just a really amazing transmission!!!!

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quizz - 10/4/2006 8:31:20 PM

+1 Boost

"real drivers" shouldn't be using the SMG anyway, right? If I'm not mistaken, people who truly enjoy BMW's for the "ultimate driving experience" is driving a stick, NOT SMG. SMG was for people who dont want to drive stick, mostly women, and I doubt very much that women appreciated SMG's lack of smoothness. The only reason I would get an SMG is because my wife would be driving it, but otherwise I'd be a fool to buy an M3 without a stick... might as well get an AMG automatic then.

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GrimREAPER - 10/5/2006 12:49:00 AM

+1 Boost

Did you really think this post through before making it? If so... you clearly are missing the point. Your comments make you sound like the furthest thing from a "real driver"

adoptgreyhounds - 10/4/2006 8:43:46 PM

+1 Boost

quizz- is Mr. Schumacher not a "real driver"

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GrimREAPER - 10/5/2006 12:43:50 AM

+1 Boost

Well said!!

golfer38 - 10/5/2006 8:11:29 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Schumacher drives a F1 car that can rev up to 18,000 rpms and the gear changes are so close and incredibly fast. That's why F1 uses "paddle" shifters. The point with true manuals is that they are more fun and more involving. That's why BMW is coming out with the 6spd manual on the 2007 M5. The streets are not a competition but they are for our enjoyment. Even if the SMG or the DSG are quicker, I'd still rather have a true manual.

YZFracer23 - 10/4/2006 9:08:23 PM

+1 Boost

haha, quizz, DSG and SMG are both faster than a human can shift a manual and with more control may i add. Anyway, DSG is the future and currently the fastest gearbox on the planet.

o, and aussiebimmerep, the RS4 doesn't have a DSG gearbox. But I agree it's the best.

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sewingmachine - 10/4/2006 10:33:38 PM

+2 Boost

stick is only fun when u drive ur car once in awhile, everyday driving sux.

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vdiv - 10/12/2006 1:34:11 AM

+1 Boost

Uhm, driving stick in stop and go traffic is a pain, but overall it is very enjoyable. Something about being in control and being a freak ;)

validus00 - 10/4/2006 10:55:56 PM

+1 Boost

so chewy, what did bmw copy from vw before this? the only thing i remembered was audi copied bmw and implemented an idrive thing. well the way i see it is that bmw is getting the licensing from borg warner, who's going to be one enjoying all this success of dsg, not vw, nor should you vw idiots. if anything, vw copied bmw's idea of this paddle shifting manual replacement by seeking borg warner's dsg. besides, i think dsg is actually a porsche's technology. vw fans, don't flatter yourselves.

vw will probably end up copying everyone else by making their first modern rear wheel drive cars and admitting that honda's make the best front wheel drive cars, not vw/audi.

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chewy - 10/5/2006 2:30:59 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

All wheel drive on luxury vehicles. Lately, direct injected and turbocharged engnes. VW/Audi has both first.

MPowerDK - 10/5/2006 2:09:54 AM

+2 Boost

i dont know where many of you guys come from, but it seems to be the US. And in that case i must say, the americans in here are idiots...
US cars sucks, so be happy for BMW, MB and the Hitler cars.. like VW audi skoda seat Bugatti..

Why just dont enjoy that car companies develope new things for us? But no you try on idiotic ways to bash one another...
BMW and MB where first out with ABS, DSC/ESP BMW had turbo in the 70s, Things that are much more important thang DSG/SMG.
BMW where almost going under in the beginning of the 60s and almost to be overtaken by MB, but then the 1600, 1800 2000 came, that changhed it all.
`Stop that attack on each other and enjoy the automotive world.

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MPowerDK - 10/5/2006 2:26:54 AM

+1 Boost

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/motoringpreviews/203125/bmw_m6_convertible.html

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TransEngr - 10/5/2006 9:39:06 AM

+1 Boost

I'm curious if anybody is interested in discussing the actual merits of the technology. It has little to do with any discussion on who's better, VW or BMW.

SMG - this is simply an automated manual transmission where the shift system works sequentially. Computer systems are great at shifting gears quickly but are poor with clutch modulation. Several companies (like LuK) are working on automated dry clutches; they will likely be applied only to small cars. The beauty of the system is that it has great efficiency, requiring only a little extra juice to run the electronics.

DSG - a double clutch transmission is not new. Now, however, computer technology has advanced to the point where it's robust. This is assisted by the wet clutches (similar to an automatic) that cover any clutch modulation problems. And just like an automatic, this trans must have a pump. Pumps mean losses, so the efficiency will not match the SMG.

I wish we could make them in the USA, but our manufacturing base is oriented towards automatics. The basic machinery / technology is not compatible with either SMG or DSG.

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chewy - 10/5/2006 7:50:55 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

The DSG is more efficient than the SMG, check out the fuel economy, the 5 series with the SMG is rated lower than the manual and the automatic.

GermanNut - 10/5/2006 9:52:24 AM

+1 Boost

The DSG may not match the efficiency of the SMG, but at the same time the SMG will never match the smoothness and linear shifting of the DSG.

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TransEngr - 10/5/2006 10:00:21 AM

+1 Boost

Exactly.

GermanNut - 10/5/2006 10:02:05 AM

+1 Boost

For real world driving smoothness and linear shifting along with a more liveable character are obviously preferred over efficiency and Formula-1 inspired crazy shifts.

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BMWRocks - 10/5/2006 12:41:07 PM

-1 Boost

At the end of the day, BMW is stil the best

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GermanNut - 10/5/2006 1:09:49 PM

+1 Boost

At the end of the day, Audi is the best and they make a better gearbox too!

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Spoonie_G - 10/6/2006 9:20:00 AM

+1 Boost

Too bad Audi doesn't care too much about fuel effiency. The BMWs are more fuel efficient across the board. The main reason I didn't get an S4 was because of 12 mpg.

lewissalem - 10/5/2006 3:59:30 PM

+1 Boost

I hope they go with it. The current DSG A3 transmission goes 0-60 faster than the manual.

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matt635 - 10/5/2006 4:01:15 PM

+1 Boost

Audi don't make the gearboxes GermanNut.

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GermanNut - 10/5/2006 4:51:23 PM

+1 Boost

fine, let me rephrase that statement. Audi currently has the best gearboxes in the world, made by whichever company produces the respective gearboxes.

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DrCallosum - 10/5/2006 7:57:29 PM

+1 Boost

No your wrong GermanNut.... the BMW ZF 6 speed automatic transmssion is the best auto especially the quickshifter in the X5 and the ferrari sequentail gearbox is muchy better then ur little DSG and BMW manuals are better then AUDI manuals....

ZORADUNTOV - 10/5/2006 5:25:59 PM

+1 Boost

...ABOUT TIME FOR BMW TO DITCH GYRO-MATIC...

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GermanNut - 10/5/2006 9:40:30 PM

+1 Boost

Oh really, AussieBimmerBoy? Why don't you just read my article titled, "DSG, The best transmission in the world."

If you take a look you will see that it clearly says that Audi's DSG puts both BMW's SMG and Ferrari's F1 to shame

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nine - 10/5/2006 10:16:00 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Oh BMW. You think you can compete with Volkswagen! Never, Volkswagen competes in their own little world. But BMW when did you look up to Volkswagen!

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Bmw_Dubai - 10/6/2006 2:57:57 AM

+1 Boost

First of all the SMG is basically a manual with computer controlled hydraulics it was developed by three companies Bmw, Siemens and Magnetti Marelli. It was first seen on the on the following cars.

BMW SMG II (M3 E46) 80 ms
Ferrari F1 (Maserati 4200GT) 80 ms
Ferrari F1 (360 F1) 150 ms
Ferrari F1 (Enzo) 150 ms
Bugatti Veyron (proposed) 200 ms
Ferrari F1 (575M) 220 ms
BMW SMG (M3 E36) 220 ms
Aston Martin Vanquish 250 ms
BMW SSG (3-series) 250ms (150ms for 1st to 2nd)
Alfa Selespeed (156 Selespeed) (old) 700 ms

Note: Magnetti Marelli developed the other cars versions while for bmw with siemens.

The most successful one is on the M3 which is SMG2 in late 2001 If it wasn't for this you wouldn't have seen the DSG gearbox on the VW'sWhich was Made By BorgWarner "licensed" by Vw as I remember it was lunched in 2003
( and other transmissions by other companies)

Due to the success on the M3 the credit goes for Bmw for allowing other companies to develop new transmissions to compete with M3 performance rather than the boring automatic. As usual bmw started it:)

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BurningMan - 10/6/2006 6:59:56 AM

+1 Boost

"credit goes for Bmw for allowing other companies to develop new transmissions" Geee... do you think they will "allow" other companies to develop engines too? How about interiors? I can only hope BMW will "allow" other companies to develop bodywork because their current offerngs leave a lot to be desired. What is Bangle up to these days anyway...

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DarkOneForce - 10/6/2006 8:45:46 AM

+1 Boost

Kegresse invented (1930s) and actually put a dual clutch in a few Citroen 11 CV in the 1940s. Initialy the dual cluch were suposed to go into the Citroen Traction, for witch it was comisioned by Andre Citroen.

Porsche's PDK (used on the 959, 962C and licensed to Audi for their Quattro S1) of the 1980s, was very similar (almost identical) to the one(s) Kegresse build. However it was not fit for production cars back then.

Thank to technological advancement BorgWarner perfected the dual clutch.
VW/Audi now uses the DualTronic from Borg Warner, witch they call DSG.

Next to the dual clutch leaders trio Borg Warner, Ricardo and Getrag, Luk (‘parallel shift gearbox’) and ZF Sachs (Dual Wet Clutch and Torsional Damper) are also working and/or have their own dual clutches.

As for BMW, there were rumors of using dual clutches for quite some time on net forums, but there were no rumors of droping the SMG.
Those rumors also claimed that BMW were thinking about Getrag, ZF Sach or Luk dual-clutches, not Borg Warner's DualTronic.

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denuyl - 3/1/2007 6:41:25 PM

+1 Boost

you don't have to be a clearvoyant to know that BMW will be offering a DSGgearbox in the near future.
BMW allways buys it's gearboxes from external suppliers, mainly ZF.
ZF anounced abouth a year ago it is developing a DSG box for use in "high power straight-engined cars"
I wonder what these could be??

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