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Sales Hype or Reality? First Class-Action Suit Filed Against Hybrid Carmaker

Agent009 submitted on 7/6/2007 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 9:51:29 AM

42 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.detnews.com

Facing $3-a-gallon gasoline prices in California last year, John True decided to stop driving his Mercedes-Benz E320 and bought a Honda Civic Hybrid.

Impressed by the gas-electric hybrid's advertised mileage -- 49 miles per gallon in the city, 51 mpg on the highway -- True plunked down $28,470, at least $7,000 more for a comparable nonhybrid Civic EX.

But after 6,000 miles of driving, True said he averaged 32 mpg in mixed city/highway driving. So in March, True, an Ontario, Calif., professional jazz piano player, filed a class-action lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Riverside, Calif., in what appears to be the first legal challenge of the mileage claims of hybrid vehicles.

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Sales Hype or Reality? First Class-Action Suit Filed Against Hybrid Carmaker

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i hope you know diesels dont hit their advertised mileage either. and coming from someone who has a 335i, how can you say diesel is the only way to go. and btw, the guy bought a honda hybrid. maybe if he got the prius he would be a happier camper ;)
— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 1:40:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

then why did 700,000 owners own one? if diesel is the way to go, why are they highly restricted in the US?
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 5:52:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Cause US is stupid. Why the same phone released in EU now will only show up here in US 6 months later? Cause the FDA is so slow and stupid they just hang on stuff for ever.

By the way, 700k hybrids is nothing compared to how many diesels are out there, in this world. 700k hehahaha
— rg12345 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 7:31:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

The US consumer still thinks diesels are dirty, slow and pollute, which is hardly the case at all these days.

In their minds, a hybrid, as it is mated to a gasoline motor, is still a "better solution".

In most cases, it's ignorance and the press doesn't exactly promote diesels the way they do hybrids. Hence my personal belief that hybrids have been overrated BIG TIME in our country. That's not to say they are bad, but many people seem to think that hybrids get "good fuel economy no matter what". No. Not the case, dear.
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 12:42:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

omg Bill you are absolutely correct. Hybrid technology is a "band aid" solution to find an alternative for gasoline. Soon, deisel will make its debut in the U.S. to the extent that 1 out of 10 cars will be deisel. The Bluetek kicks butt, BMW is rolling out with theirs in the 3 and the X5, and other great manufacturers will have theirs as well. Once deisel has been established, Hydrogen technology will take over (about 20 years). I can wait, but I really dont want to have to!!
— Qwazywabbit (View Profile)

Posted on 7/9/2007 10:02:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I think he will have better luck suing the govt / EPA. Doesn't all the numbers for fuel efficiency come from the EPA testing lab??

— hamproof (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 10:35:01 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Rated fuel economy doesn't come from the manufacturer. If it did, would you trust it?

Because fuel consumption is highly dependent on how you drive the car, of course your fuel economy will differ to the rated fuel economy figures.

Saying that diesel is the only way to go while hybrids are not is like saying that airbags are a waste and seatbelts are the only way to go. For added safety you should get a car with both airbags and seatbelts. Likewise, Peugeot, Mercedes, and Hino have all produced diesel-hybrid vehicles.
— norak (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 11:14:53 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

norak, I have to agree with the diesel protagonists for the simple reason that hybrids have to lug around a heavy set of batteries which cost an arm and a leg to replace eventually. Diesel cars have great range for long-distance driving and the torque one appreciates when driving uphill in the mountains or when towing a trailer.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 4:30:41 AM | | Votes: 1

That's a good one, a true knee slapper.
— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 11:55:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

how are they overrated trash?
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 5:34:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

well maybe not trash, but overrated for sure. I mean, I get in my Audi about 30mph on the highway, and in my Civic (2002) I only get about 29. Just did about 400miles (99.99% highway, at around 70-75mph)trip, I was very accurate when calculating the mpg: 28.4mpg.
I get that mpg with my A4 when doing 85mph avg. So: overrated.
— rg12345 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 7:35:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

you realize it also differs on how you drive, and the weather conditions too as well as inflation of tires and maintenence of engine and etc? and it wouldnt be smart comparing a civic to something out of competition. I can get good figures on any car if im driving a ______ if its in good condition and when I drive responsibly. tht doesnt sound overrated.
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 8:34:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Many people don't realize that hybrids generally perform poorly outside the urban environment where there is no stop-and-go traffic, especially luxury hybrids which are heavier and have a more powerful gasoline engine powering them. Take for example the Lexus RX400h. An overweight SUV that get's good fuel economy in the city, but dismal fuel economy in mixed driving with emphasis on rural country roads. I believe there was a German test between the Mercedes ML320 CDI and the Lexus RX400h and the ML320 CDI got the better fuel economy by far outside the city while the Lexus got the better gas mileage within city driving.
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 12:37:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Tell me about it.. I drove an RX400h from Frankfurt to Munich in 1 day (about 400 km) and I averaged 15-16 liters every 100 km. 90% Autobahn at speeds ranging from 130 to 200.

My A8 is faster and more fuel efficient. To me hybrids won't make any sense. I don't drive much in city where there is a lot of stop and go traffic so on the motorway they're rubbish (slow and extremely noisy)
— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 7/9/2007 5:50:02 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

The guy should sue EPA instead. Automakers are NOT allowed to advertise ANY OTHER mpg figures by law. What do you expect Honda to do? That said, I got 46mpg lifetime avergae with my Prius. (60/51 EPA rated - 46mpg with new rating system!). The new EPA rating system is very accurate. We should adopt that new system ASAP.
On the other hand, I got 16.5mpg life time average from my BMW 540iA (17/23 EPA rating). Same commute route. I don't know about Civic Hybrid, but Prius is not that far off as far as EPA rating goes.
46/55 = 83% (55 = (60+51)/2)
16.5/20 = 82% (20 = (17+23)/2)

— ceric (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 1:25:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

That's one thing about BMW I do appreciate a lot. The actual fuel economy is on par or better than the old EPA listing. I was shocked when the X5 3.0i got over 26 mpg on the highway.

Now if BMW's speedometers were as precise...
— vdiv (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 2:31:47 PM | | Votes: -1

yes, and the automakers are well aware that the EPA figures are uunrealistic. and despite knowing their cars better than the EPA, they use information that they know is false. that makes them complicit...and liable. do you really think they're so innocent?
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/9/2007 10:45:16 AM | | Votes: 1

I have to say I would trust the evaluations of someone who maintains running lifetime mpg performance. To say he has credibility is an understatement, unless its a fabrication and I choose to believe it is not. Gret post, logical and convincing.
— cjxx (View Profile)

Posted on 7/14/2007 11:16:33 AM | | Votes: 1

Automakers liable for using the only standard available?! The only COMMON denominator is EPA mileage. Automakers have supported the more realistic test standards because they produce MPG ratings that better reflect the use of A/C and other equipment. EPA testers used to try and achieve the highest MPG possible even if thy drove with their shoes off to be lighter on the throttle! It is a change for the better. The EPA has changed its mission and that's good...no big deal.
— cjxx (View Profile)

Posted on 7/14/2007 11:52:14 AM | | Votes: 1

I dont believe anyone who gets close to the EPA estimates. Anyone who claims to is either lying, mistaken, or does not know how to calculate. So let's all sue. I could use a few extra bucks. Sign me up.
— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 2:50:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I'm hearing something, I cant really make it out, can anyone else hear? It's hard to understand when someone is talking out of his a**.

And that is the only reply a troll like you will ever get from me.
— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 4:31:02 PM | | Votes: -2

Really? In the three cars that I've owned, they've all acheived the EPA ratings, sometimes even better. It's probable that people's mileage problems are due to (a) a lead foot, (b) driving stupidly by doing things like accelerating toward red lights, etc. , (c) congested, bumper-to-bumper traffic, or (d) a combination of a,b, and/or c.

I'm a bit disappointed that the EPA changed the gas mileage test for 2008. The whole point of the ratings was to be able to compare mileage across vehicles. Especially now when 2007 and 2008 models are on the lot together, it's a bit confusing at first. Probably, the manufactures should have been able to post mileage using both the old and new tests, so that consumers could have a point of reference vs. the old system (which in my experience worked just fine, anyway).
— bigprize (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 1:11:30 AM | | Votes: 1

BMW, MB and Audi are known as Lexury car and performance car not for the EPA rating or realibility. Japanese cars are known for their quality, realibility and good gas mileage.
— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 6:43:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

"BMW, MB and Audi are known as Lexury car and performance car not for the EPA rating or realibility."

Um, in Europe, Audi, BMW and Mercedes offer engines that are peppy, fun and frugal. The Germans sell very little performance engines in their home market compared to what they sell in the US. There is no demand for overpowered engines in this market as there is in the US - for no good reason either.

And about reliability, do you really buy all that stuff from Consumer Reports? German cars are QUALITY cars, they are RELIABLE cars and they PERFORM well. Japanese cars might be more reliable overall, but German cars are equally strong in the reliability department, have been in the past, had some problems recently, but are coming back again.

"Japanese cars are known for their quality, realibility and good gas mileage."

What a dumb statement. There are many Japanese and German cars known for their gas mileage and there are many German and Japanese cars known for poor fuel economy. And like I said before, German cars are equally known for quality and reliability. If they weren't you think people would buy them?
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 12:34:27 PM | | Votes: 2

we had a 97 passat, yes someone told him they were reliable. wrong, in 9 yrs, it was in the shop every other wk and month. it had electrical issues andquality was an issue too where the trunk wouldnt close after 5 tries. and somehow, my dads friend has also the similar problems as well. our accord was much better with only a tranny issue and replacement. in VW forums, some report of suspension issues and knocking sounds in the trunk of their jettas, and beetles. I'd buy if a german car is new, but I wouldnt consider a used german car as my 1st choice. (performance oriented cars are a different story though)
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 7:46:39 PM | | Votes: 2

mite I add, if you want a german car, go ahead if costs on repairs and etc dont matter to you, my dad or I would love one but its beyond our time and budget, we're just good with our hondas.
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 7:55:46 PM | | Votes: 2

As far Luxury goes, Lexus, Acura and Infiniti can bang it with big boys from German as well. Don't belief me, take a look at the Lexus LS and Infiniti G37 and test drive them.
— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 6:45:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Actually, this idiot should be thrown in jail for paying anywhere near $28,500 for this car. What a moron...

As for the lawsuit...can you say "thrown out"?
— cktoo (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 10:37:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

no
— toolatetorace (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 10:45:53 PM | | Votes: 1

.....and if these people think the fuel economy is bad , wait until many of these people start replacing those little 12 or 13" tires prematurley if they are on the highway too often
— toolatetorace (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 10:45:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

The biggest factor in gas mileage is the driver.This moron could be flooring the car everywhere he goes.The judge should throw him out on his ass.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 7/6/2007 11:18:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

What do you mean by "driven it properly"?

Are you referring to "driving style"? Because most cars can deliver acceptable fuel economy if driven properly and efficiently. For example, when I see that there is a red light ahead, instead of slamming the gas pedal, accelerating to 50 and then doing a full stop (boyracer style), I let my car roll out and slow down by itself as I approach the light only braking when I have to due to a car / yield line infront. Needless to say I get better fuel economy out of my car than other people, who are not driving it "properly".
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 12:40:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

yea yea yea, I live rite near DC, the media was oh-so ridden about this case, so the owner of the laundromat won.
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/7/2007 7:32:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

hybrid mileage has always been wildly overstated. the manufacturers make unrealistic assumptions in their calculations. for example, they assume the you never engage the gas engine under 30...nearly impossible since you'd have to accelerate like a snail. anyway...

toyota claims 60mpg city for the prius...of my three friends you have one, nobody has gotten over 45.

frankly, they deserve getting sued for false advertising.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/9/2007 10:41:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Read above posts. ITS THE EPA WHO RATES MPG NOT MANUFACTURERS and all manufacurers ratings have been similarly off. The new EPA test standards incorporate more aggressive driving and use of more accessories (A/C etc).
— cjxx (View Profile)

Posted on 7/14/2007 11:37:19 AM | | Votes: 1

Don't blame the hybrid manufacturers. Blame the EPA's fuel economy rating standards. A vehicle manufacturer must follow an official procedure that results in a "only valid in the lab" fuel economy rating. The EPA poop sheet you see in a window in a showroom even tells you that the rating is useful for comparison purposes only.

So manufacturers get better at getting good EPA ratings, which may or may not result in better real-world fuel economy. Caveat emptor.
— Steve (View Profile)

Posted on 7/12/2007 11:17:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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Sales Hype or Reality? First Class-Action Suit Filed Against Hybrid Carmaker

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