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Senator Wants Difficult 2020 Mileage Standards Doubled

Agent009 submitted on 11/18/2008 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 9:21:21 AM

19 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: blogs.edmunds.com

Automakers that receive federal aid should double the fuel economy of their fleets by 2020, Democratic Senator Bill Nelson of Florida said today.

Nelson's remarks during Senate floor debate suggest that Republicans are not the only lawmakers who may block emergency loans to the Detroit 3.

In an interview, Nelson said a new energy law that raises fleetwide fuel economy to 35 miles per gallon by 2020--about 40 percent higher than today--falls far short.

"Why should we be pouring taxpayer money into an automobile industry that has continued to resist higher miles per gallon, which has led us in part to the problems we're in?" he said.

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Senator Wants Difficult 2020 Mileage Standards Doubled

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Agent009

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User Comments

woood

I totally agree! This should have been enforced 10 years ago. Congress and Senators are equally at fault.

— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 10:00:05 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Agent009

The problem is the changes require to achieve this may make the cars so radical that the consumer will not buy them. The public in theory wants them but will they buy egg shaped cars?

— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 10:33:56 AM | | Votes: 4   

woood

Agent009, this is the thinking that got the big 3 in trouble in the first place. Look at what Toyota did with the Prius. How is it selling now?

— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 10:41:38 PM | | Votes: 2   

EnnNorak

This is mixing apples and oranges -- typical blackmail politics. Fuel economy is a separate issue from terms attached to financial aid. Taxpayer financial aid to any private company, no matter how critical to the economy, should only be given on the same terms as a private equity firm would demand. This would include not only repayment of capital with interest but giving up a significant equity position to the government as well.

— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 11/19/2008 7:20:36 PM | | Votes: 1   

HSCenterconsole

Got to love the ideas coming out of the Democratic leadership on the Hill.

Forcing the Big Three to produce 50 mpg fleets while giving them $50+ billion in taxpayer bailout money is absurd! This is like shooting somebody in the stomach and then giving them a bandaid.

— HSCenterconsole (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 10:36:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

bmwdrvr

i agree that doesnt make any sense, GM at least has been working on making its whole lineup more fuel efficient, and offers several hybrids already but placing unrealistic demands on them, forcing most of that money into R&D would be pointless to them getting the money in the firstplace

— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 11:05:54 AM | | Votes: 2   

Whelan

It is practically impossible without making every car some sort of hybrid or the like. Gasoline engines today run at a high 90% efficiency. And with all the government safety standards that add incredible amounts of weight to these cars, achieving the mileage needed will not be attainable. No more trucks or large vehicles apparently.

The other item is that the whole CAFE standard raising to 35mpg has cramped the auto industry to try and gear itself up for such a change. But at some point they have to realize the impossibility of what they are asking.

If anything I would lower it to 30mpg by 2020. Fuel costs are down and with advents in alternative energy we could really decrease the cost of oil. Not to mention if people thought of moving to things like natural gas like they have in I think its either Utah or Nevada where you can easily find filling stations. NG is plentiful in the US, runs clean, and it is a very proven technology in cars such as the Honda Civic GX.

You want to help the auto industry. Invest in the hydrogen fuel cell and start building an infrastructure for it with the money. That would not only help them with development, but also create public works projects in creating the system.

— Whelan (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 11:26:01 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

neutral

Agreed, they should lower the CAFE to 30mpg for cars and something reasonable for trucks (like 21mpg).

These stupid stipulations behind any type of federal aid will only make the Big3 less competitive by forcing them to build vehicles that the consumer does not want. Then all the know-it-alls will complain once the big3 can't make money in another year or two, mostly because the feds aren't letting the Big3 ease their dependence on trucks/SUVs. Instead, the feds think its just an instantaneous thing.

— neutral (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 1:14:36 PM | | Votes: 2   

GreenPlease

-"Gasoline engines today run at a high 90% efficiency."

Really? Otto cycle engines with a CR of 10 max out at 32.5% and that's in a very narrow RPM range. If it doesn't have VVT, volumetric efficiency is proportional to the throttle angle, which is to say low at low speeds.

If we want to keep gas prices this low and keep our effective $/mile costs low, we should invest in a more fuel efficient fleet. 50mpg is achievable with:

1. Better aerodynamics
2. Downsizing and turbocharging
3. Reducing vehicle weight
4. Using hydraulic IVTs

Aerodynamics are "free" and can radically improve fuel economy on the highway. Amory Lovins had his team at the RMI build an SUV that gets 40mpg on the highway using conventional materials, no hybridization, and the only substantial change being in the aero-design

Currently, cars are "styled" and then given to engineers to tweak the aerodynamics. This process needs to be reversed. Simple.

Downsizing and turbocharging an engine with associated DI and VVT adds about $1k to the cost of a vehicle while improving fuel economy ~30% when done properly. Simple.

Reducing weight just involves using plastic body panels in place of sheet metal. Nothing exotic and you can avoid the paint shop. Also, swap the lead acid batteries for smaller/lighter Li-Ions, do a little thermal management to reduce radiator size, and lighten up the seats. Simple.

Hydraulic IVTs improve fuel economy by 50% in the city and about 5% on the highway while reducing weight and size and improving performance. An over-engineered tranny can be used on everything from a sub-compact to a full size truck without modification. Why they aren't used I cannot begin to imagine.

So why don't the Big 3 use these technologies? Simple. All three companies are plagued by "group think." They think that if as long as they keep the status quo, things will be fine.

— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 11/18/2008 8:32:36 PM | | Votes: 2   

rawbux

Where in the hell are you getting those MPG figures for the BMW's certainly not EPA ratings. If your talking about you know someone that get's that kinda mileage on there Bimmers then that's different. All cars can easily exceed EPA ratings. BMW engines aren't more efficient then everyone else's, infact most of them require premium fuel while other's can run on regular with the same compression ratios as the bimmer!!

— rawbux (View Profile)

Posted on 11/19/2008 2:24:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

rawbux

You can take 2 internal combustion engines with say 10.5 compression ratio and if what has a much more efficient designed chamber and combustion process like reducing the crevice volume spark plug location piston design and airflow twirl and durect injected fuel, etc. it will be more efficient on lower octane fuel and produce lower emissions and improved mileage and power as a general rule. Infact wonderful things in Nascar and Drag Racing has been done with engine coatings. These are the facts and it takes expeiermenting and experience! Racing helps build better engines and better cars!!

— rawbux (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2008 1:22:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

rawbux

Sorry, I shoulda spelled checked!

— rawbux (View Profile)

Posted on 11/20/2008 1:24:40 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

rawbux

This stupid senator obviously (like ALL government) doesn't know jacksh*t about cars!! When you hire a company to give you what you want it is normal that you pay them to give you what you want, not spend a bunch of your own money to appease the government and then have it fail (like most government stuff) and then try to enforce them to do the next failure and so on! If they get the hell out of the car biz and let them build what people want to drive they would be just fine! The government knows nothing about cars or the business because everything they run is BANKRUPT!!

— rawbux (View Profile)

Posted on 11/19/2008 2:31:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

truckman

I believe that the auto companies can make a vehicle that will double what they are requiring for 2020! PML is a good example with there 640hp electric car with 4 hrs battery time,80mpg when the generator kicks in if you used up your 4 hours of battery time. The government makes more money in gas tax to be too concerned, this must be an emergency.

— truckman (View Profile)

Posted on 11/19/2008 6:12:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

gooch

The senator's grandstanding (and really, that's all it is) is tied to one of two things:
1) He is angling for one or more of the automakers to build a factory in Florida;
2) He is looking to get his name in the news as a proponent of the environment so he can have something to hang his hat on when he wants to head a committee or appease a special interest group.

This has nothing to do with fuel efficiency and everything to do with blowhardiness. Sure the auto manufacturers should have already been making vehicles far more efficient than they are; what else is new? My solution is for us to realize the performance and mileage diesel offers is nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately, refining capacity for diesel it at its peak, so prices for the fuel remain higher than gasoline.

— gooch (View Profile)

Posted on 11/19/2008 12:15:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

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