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Should BMW buy Mercedes stake to thwart Audi, Lexus?...

irie77 submitted on 11/27/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 11:12 AM
from: www.detnews.com

[117] user comments | category: Spy Shots

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Should BMW buy Mercedes stake to thwart Audi, Lexus?...

German luxury car manufacturers BMW and Mercedes are riding the crest of a wave, growing richer as they sell more and more premium vehicles to traditional and emerging markets around the world.

But increasingly effective competition from Audi, Lexus, and Porsche, is ganging up against the traditional market leaders, and according to a report from investment banker Morgan Stanley, the interlopers have two ace cards which are likely to become ever more powerful...

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enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 11:36:16 AM

+2 Boost

there's virtually nothing insightful here...

audi and lexus derive cost savings by using volkwagen/toyota engines, transmission and other components in their cars. there's some new. bmw and mercedes don't. wow.

could also explain why bmw and mercedes command enormous premiums...

reply to this comment

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 11:45:35 AM

-2 Boost

please....BMW still commands a high premium on the 328 even though it's using a GM tranmission.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 1:30:00 PM

-1 Boost

GM transmission? what are you talking about? please do share details.

GM wishes it had BMW transmissions...

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 2:56:11 PM

+2 Boost

The 328 automatic uses a GM tranny. The manual is a ZF.

Rupert - 11/27/2007 4:46:49 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I think BMW use ZF automatics in all their cars...I know the X3's auto is a ZF, I'm sure the 3 series is the same.

Lavic - 11/27/2007 4:56:55 PM

+6 Boost

ZF transmission are manufactured by ZF Getriebe GmbH. Not GM. They are selling to other company as well:

Land Rover, BMW, Bentley, Maserati, Ford Audi, and others.

bmwdrvr - 11/27/2007 7:17:57 PM

-1 Boost

he means across cheaper segents there isnt a car brand lower than BMW that it shares anything with....and any car not BMW branded that shares anything with a BMW is much more expensive than it is and that is a short list of 2 cars......Lexus has 4 cars that are just nicer versions of the mainstream mass produced Toyotas they are based on......GX, LX, ES, and RX....while every engine currently in the Lexus stable is shared with a Toyota minus the V8 in the passenger cars....the almighty ls460l shares its hybrid powertrain with the prius....so with that said there is obvious cost savings there...the problem is why isnt Lexus cheaper....sounds like a rip off with savings like that. The same goes for Audi with VW, Lamborghini, and Porsche.....everything in the Audi linueup is a version of a VW. The engines are all shared even as low down as the gti, the a8 shares its chassis with the phaeton, and 2 other VW group cars. the Q7 the porsche, and VW. the R8 lamborghini. the list goes on what they are sharing, and from a quality stand point VW interiors are right there with Audi, so why the price difference at all.....Clearly BMW is a company, and ALL of its competitors are simply Divisions, Mercedes also isnt sharing as "much" with lower vehicles except some components with the 300, and of course the ill fated old slk based crossfire

bmwdrvr - 11/27/2007 7:23:31 PM

-1 Boost

ill give credit to Jaguar also the 2 "real" Jaguars the XJ and XK dont share ford parts, but they do share engines and transmissions with Land Rover for obvious reasons what other engine would you stick in a Land Rover from the Ford Stable without ruining the brands prestige.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 7:45:53 PM

+2 Boost

bleek:

"Lexus doesn't have any cheap engines that it takes from toyota"

WRONG. the engines in the three best selling lexus models (RX, ES and IS) come directly from toyota. in the case of the ES, the entire powertrain is identical to a camry. in other models, it's just a modified version of similiar toyota engines.

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 9:00:00 PM

+4 Boost

Oh c'mon Bleek.....are you sh**ttn' me? The ES350 and RX350 use the same platform and engine in the Camry and Rav4.

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 9:01:03 PM

+3 Boost

V6 versions that is.....

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 10:07:28 PMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

bleek518 says:

"LOL just the typical badge whore talk."

He also says:

"Lexus will be the #1 luxury brand in the world 10-15 years from now. Mark my words. BMW and MB are going down."

THAT is typical "badge whore" or "fanboy" talk, if you will. You need to stop being so annoying. You are the typical crazed Lexus fan--but the sad thing is, the things you say aren't posted to make fun of Lexus fans; they're true. What do you BACK UP your claims with? I don't want to hear "Lexus went up 2,000,582% in Europe this year" because if you started last year with selling -3 cars, that's not much at all.

What is it in your mind that makes you think BMW, Merc and Audi will all just die off? They are more competitive than ever, and not only between the three of them. Lexus is looming distantly in their rear views, but they know they have to prepare. Whatever Lexus can do in world markets, the German three can do better.

"so BMW's 360 horse power V8 with 6 speed tranny costs more then Lexuses 380 hoser power V8 with 8 speed tranny??? Lexus doesn't have any cheap engines that it takes from toyota"

BMW's 360hp V8 will be upgraded to a smaller, much more powerful unit with next year's 7 Series.

Since when are the "Lexus" 3.5L and 5.7L NOT Toyota engines?

"and BMW spreads their engines as well. even the V8 in the new M3 is just the V10 from the M5 minus 2 cylinders, not a brand new engine."

And??? What's your point? I would say that a V8 derived from an award-winning, F1-linked V10 is a damn good V8 and any sports coupe should have one. Unlike the IS-F's unnecessarily huge (5.0L) engine, BMW's 4.0 makes the same power, but with better fuel efficiency, lower weight, better handling and thus, better acceleration. It's hard to argue with that. It's also grin-inducingly high-revving, like its 3.2 inline six forebear.

kablaam - 11/28/2007 12:43:03 AM

+3 Boost

There are many Toyota/Lexus models that share chassis and parts, are you kidding me?

kablaam - 11/28/2007 12:46:11 AM

+1 Boost

Lexus GS = Avalon
Lexus ES = Camry
Lexus RX = Highlander

You can't blame them for doing it, but that is how they save their $$$.

rnsaza - 12/2/2007 7:05:41 AM

+1 Boost

VW use economies of scale to improve internal profits NOT to save its loyal lemmings $$$! That is a fact and it is the fact that keeps me loyal to brands who although are more expense still offer a pure product worthy of bragging about! VW is even going to share its Veyron motor with Bentley! How cheap is that! Imagine a Bugatti driver being told that his car is part of a parts bin production! Same for Bentley! SIS!

autopro - 11/27/2007 11:53:37 AMView My AgentSpace

Show Comment -15 Boost

Agent009 - 11/27/2007 12:51:53 PMView My AgentSpace

+6 Boost

The flat performance for 2007 by Lexus could haunt them. They are predicting yet another flat 2008 as well.

BMW on the other hand it still projecting blistering sales.

The problem?

Lexus and Toyota demographically share a very similar audience. This demographic has been hit very hard by the housing downturn and turbulent economic times. There are also few significant changes in the line up for 2008 as well.

BMW's demographics on the other hand are a bit more insulated from this (by the benefit of higher incomes or less stretched budgets?). Plus BMW is on the verge of several new models being released, penetrating more areas of the market than ever before.

It is a bit too early to tell if Lexus has rested on it laurels too long. But it is a fair call to say, their #1 status in the US is squarely in BMW's cross hairs.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 1:31:33 PM

+5 Boost

lexus does not outsell BMW in passenger cars. never has.

lexus is highest volume only because of the camry-based RX mommy-mobile SUV which sell over 100,000.

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 6:44:25 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

AND the RX is long overdue for a redesign. We traded our RX330 in yesterday, and I wasn't very sad to see it go. Not bad, but not great either. The X5 4.8i is a massive improvement. I'll write an article when I have time to snap better pictures.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 7:49:39 PM

+2 Boost

bleek:

so lexus is playing follow the leader as usual. LS to 7. GS to 5. IS to 3. and now something to compete with the 1. and then diesel engines....see a pattern?

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 10:32:17 PMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

"and all the germans are following Lexus by copying hybrid technology."

No, they're only doing it for profit. An Audi rep said flat out that they're not very interested in hybrids, but only in the money they generate. It's all about image. In fact, Merc, BMW and Audi are all focused on diesels. Better, more powerful, more fuel efficient diesels. Cleaner diesels. More refined diesels. You get it. Because they have a LOT more potential than hybrids in the long run.

"and Lexus won't make diesels. they'll make diesels combined with hybrid technology. completely different and much better."

Oh, really? Because the last time I checked the IS220d was already available. Since you obviously know European people so well ("all London CEOs buying LS600hLs"), you should also know that diesels MATTER in the European market.

And I was just thinking... it wasn't Lexus who recently introduced a diesel-hybrid concept car, was it? Oh, no. It was Mercedes-Benz and the S400 Bluetec Hybrid concept. And that car already had all the specs. 40MPG, 0-60 in 7 sec, all the luxury and style the S-Class offers. It will be available in 2010 or a bit sooner.

Lexus is still stuck with the 17MPG LS600hL that does 0-60 in 6 sec, but is meant to compete with the twelve-cylinder sedans. LOL. The S400 will also be $10K-20K less expensive than the hybrid Lexus.

"you're such a moron. you might as well say Lexus is copying germnas by putting windshield wipers to clean the windshield. lol little troll boy"

I don't even know what to say to this. All I hear is how this new car looks like a Lexus, that new car looks like a Lexus. But DEAR GOD, oh NO, it is simply impossible for a Lexus to have "copied" any other car. Even if they used the chassis if the Merc W124 S-Class to make the LS400! No, that didn't happen! You just imagined it!

Tool.

mini22 - 11/27/2007 12:06:24 PM

0 Boost

Mercedes and Fiat just broke off talks of a joint collaboration.BMW decided not to buy Volvo,Jaguar or Alfa. That just goes to show the problems both German Luxury car makers have in Alliances and mergers. To cut their costs the best they can do is build vehicles in countries where labor rates are lower then Germany

reply to this comment

nickymayne - 11/27/2007 12:13:34 PM

+7 Boost

Remember when dealing with luxury brands, sales volume isn't a good benchmark.

reply to this comment

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 1:32:59 PM

0 Boost

you're right. sales prices--and particularly the premium paid relative to competitors---is FAR more important.

Whelan - 11/27/2007 12:25:57 PM

+1 Boost

Apples and Oranges. As it was said above Audi uses VW components, and Lexus uses Toyota, and Inifniti uses Nissan. Volvo even uses some Ford stuff as does Jaguar. BMW and Mercedes are solely luxury cars and they make nothing more. Except for Mini which is owned by BMW and doing very well for itself I might add.

MB did have partner with Chrysler but that didn't hold to well for Chrysler or MB as both sides lost in reliability and ratings.

No need for two rivals like this to merge, their products are fantastic and the new C-class gives me a woody each time I see one on the road now. That big flaring nose and headlamps are awesome to stare at.

reply to this comment

EL34 - 11/27/2007 12:39:36 PM

-1 Boost

And Lamborghini uses Audi parts.

I know because I have a friend that had a 2004 Gallardo and I saw the parts in the engine compartment ;)

Agent009 - 11/27/2007 12:52:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

And Audi uses Lambo parts as well. Just a merry parts swapping family.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 7:52:32 PM

0 Boost

bleek:

you're just full of misinformation.

BMW does not use peugot engines. they're all BMW. they do--like everyone else--buy components from other suppliers. but you won't find anything but a BMW engine in one of their cars.

guess you got this info from the same sources that told you the ZF transmissions in some BMWs are from GM.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 8:08:15 PM

+1 Boost

"uh. like I care when BMW's transmissions come from."

apparently you do care, as you are the one who initiated a conversation about BMW transmissions with your false information...

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 8:12:17 PM

+1 Boost

"guess you got this info from the same sources that told you the ZF transmissions in some BMWs are from GM."

hey guy....i didn't say that GM made ZF transmissions...that doesn't make any sense. the Auto tranny in the 328 is infact a GM tranny from France......the manual trany for the 328 is a ZF(not GM)

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 8:14:50 PM

+2 Boost

the 335 automatic and manual transmissions are both ZF transmissions.

autopro - 11/27/2007 1:41:40 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

If BMW didn't have the 3'series the game would be over,that'a 70% of their sales.Their holding on to that market share buy buying it with lease support.All their models are support except for low volume models like the M3.

reply to this comment

bmwdrvr - 11/27/2007 7:19:45 PM

+1 Boost

correction here in the US they hold best selling in the class of the above the 3 series with the 5 series

bmwdrvr - 11/27/2007 7:20:46 PM

-2 Boost

and lets not forget about the X3, and its command of its market

enthusiastx11 - 11/28/2007 3:47:51 PM

0 Boost

bleek:

got a source?>

ThierryHenry14 - 11/30/2007 12:21:13 PM

0 Boost

here it goes with percents again.

This is an example.

If BMW sold 1 million cars, and they sold 180,000 $70k+ cars, thats 18%.
On the other hand, if lexus sold 100,000 cars, and 30,000 is from $70k+ cars, thats 30%.

Wow!!! 30% is bigger than 18%, but is 30K bigger than 180k?

JUGNU - 11/27/2007 2:23:42 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I agree MB and BMW are way more in emerging/developing markets/countries than their rivals as they r very famous/renowned worldwide.
(In fact it’s the reputation more than anything else which is driving all these unparallel sales in the emerging markets).

But this could change real soon. Not that their (MB, BMW) sales will decrease but other’s (Audi, Lexus...etc) will increase. In fact maybe in some years sales wise they'll be equal.

For example, through Toyota, Lexus' reach is far more than the individual and comparably small companies like BMW and MB.
U see even in some markets, example India and neighbors where Lexus is not officially sold yet, they r still present there and in quite good numbers (Note that in almost all markets u can special order any Lexus model through the Toyota dealers, where it's not officially sold).

All in all in the next 5-7 years i see Lexus growing a lot worldwide. They have and will start entering more markets officially soon.

as Lexus is a growing Brand whereas BMW and MB sales are quite steady worldwide.

JUGNU

reply to this comment

ThierryHenry14 - 11/27/2007 5:24:47 PM

+4 Boost

Every company will grow in a new market. its just the difference between growing, per say, in India, from 40,000 to 50,000, which is a mear 20%, versus 1000 to 2000, which is 100%. Growing means absolutely nothing.

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 6:46:11 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

BMW and Merc aren't way ahead of others in emerging markets, as you stated. Audi is a dominant force in China, but whoever's ahead in India is anyone's guess.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 7:55:04 PM

+1 Boost

before lexus can expand in any meaningful way outside of the US, they need NEW PRODUCT. diesels, wagons, true performance cars, etc.

the current lineup is geared to very american tastes...most of the emerging world has taste similar to europeans....they expect comfort, technology, performance AND handling in a luxury car.

qball - 11/28/2007 8:08:38 AM

+2 Boost

JUNGU - ever been to China? guess what brand has more cars on the road than anyone? Not Lexus

Czelinski - 11/27/2007 2:59:53 PM

+4 Boost

But this could change real soon. Not that their (MB, BMW) sales will decrease but other’s (Audi, Lexus...etc) will increase. In fact maybe in some years sales wise they'll be equal.

Audi yes, and this is already evident in Europe. But Lexus...

reply to this comment

JUGNU - 11/27/2007 3:15:35 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

"Audi yes, and this is already evident in Europe.but Lexus..."

Lexus yes, and this is already evident in Asia.but Audi...

usually when companies start growing, first effects is seen in their home regions.They satrt from there.

Lexus--- Asia
Audi--- Germany

JUGNU

reply to this comment

Rupert - 11/27/2007 4:49:01 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

So Lexus' biggest growth has been for the last 17 years in the US...yet somehow the first effects of growth have been seen in Asia???
This post makes no sense Jugnu, as who is the market leader for premium cars in China? Audi.

ThierryHenry14 - 11/27/2007 5:27:43 PM

+3 Boost

I hope you didn't mean that seriously. Check your numbers again, to see who is leading in China (Asia's biggest market).

Besides, like I said, growth is relative, and needs comparison. A growth of 1% can mean a bigger growth than a growth of 100%.

Rupert - 11/27/2007 6:18:22 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

Theirry - Am I the wrong one? I genuinely thought it was Audi who was leading the premium sector...is it Buick then?

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 6:47:41 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Rupert, Thierry was replying to JUGNU.

And yes I think it is Buick, but I don't consider them to really be a premium brand. Their interiors are still cheap in China and the cars are very bland. The "real" luxury brands in China (with significant sales) are Audi and BMW, respectively.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 7:56:33 PM

+1 Boost

per rupert's comment, your logic fails jugnu.

ThierryHenry14 - 11/30/2007 3:08:17 PM

+1 Boost

sorry rupert, I didnt mean you. It was for JUGNU.

JUGNU - 11/27/2007 3:16:13 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Lexus--- Asia
Audi--- Europe

JUGNU

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 6:48:12 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Audi- China
Audi- Europe

Lexus-US

China > US in next five years.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 8:06:14 PM

+1 Boost

correction bleek:

BMW beats lexus in china so far in 2007.

in the first SIX months of 2007: "Sales of the BMW brand, especially China-made 5-Series sedans, rose 36 percent to 22,891 units."

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/08/01/056887.html

in the first EIGHT months of 2007, "Lexus has sold 16,885 vehicles in the first eight months this year"

http://www.gasgoo.com/autobiz/3782/China-imported-16-885-Lexus-vehicles-in-Jan-Aug-up-160-percent.html

so BMW is well ahead of lexus in china. and since some of you are so into meaningless growth rates, that's more the 50% growth for BMW year over year.

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 8:44:03 PM

+3 Boost

"since some of you are so into meaningless growth rates, that's more the 50% growth for BMW year over year."

I couldn't help but notice the link says Lexus up 160%.....I'd say that, that much improvement far surpasses BMWs 32% approx, 5 fold. At that rate, BMW won't be ahead for long.

Bmw8ter - 11/27/2007 8:45:23 PM

+2 Boost

correciton.....36%....I take back the 5 fold.

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 10:36:26 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Unfortunately for Lexus, you need Chinese built cars to survive in the CHINESE MARKET.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/10/audis-china-sal.html

Audi sales in China total 76,168 for the first nine months of the year... surpassing those of the US, for the first time.

ThierryHenry14 - 11/30/2007 12:26:39 PM

0 Boost

how old are we bleek? do you think that lexus will maintain a 160% sales growth for the next 10 years?

TRacer - 11/27/2007 5:20:59 PM

0 Boost

I'd love to see a Chinese company buy Mercedes and run them in the ditch like they did with Chrysler!

reply to this comment

Bill - 11/27/2007 6:34:53 PM

+1 Boost

What a stupid comment.

enthusiastx11 - 11/27/2007 8:12:40 PM

0 Boost

well, 17 years in britain and lexus is still very tiny compared to all the german brands. got an explanation for that? and how come lexus isn't selling well in japan?

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 10:40:00 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

"exactly. 50% of BMW's sales in USA are the 3 series for the average price of $40,000. and that share is even larger outside of USA

the same is true for Audi. even Audi execs admited that if the A4 doesn't sell- Audi will die."

That's OBVIOUS. In any lineup, the least-expensive car or truck will be the bread-and-butter. I think it was a bit overstated in saying Audi would "die" without the A4, but just like BMW and the 3, the A4 is the key to many worldwide markets and it deserves its success.

How is it any different than Lexus's RX being the best-seller here? Without the RX, they would make the top five in US luxury sales, but nowhere near #1. The same applies to BMW and the 3 Series. It's also easy to forget that the RX350 is a sub-$40K car. I don't care about the average transaction price... the average transaction price for a 3 Series is well over $40K, also, but you have left that out so I'll do the same for Lexus.

reply to this comment

enthusiastx11 - 11/28/2007 3:46:54 PM

0 Boost

bleek:

so lexus was just in markets outside of the US for fun? no. they launched in europe in 1989 to make a profit. and they've sold little since then.

here's the link to lexus uk:

http://www.lexus.co.uk/about_lexus/index.asp

reply to this comment

Rupert - 11/29/2007 5:01:26 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Lexus Spain, saying

"Desde nuestro lanzamiento en 1989"

http://www.mundolexus.com/about_lexus/index.asp

Lexus France, saying:

"Depuis le lancement de notre marque en 1989"

http://www.lexus.fr/about_lexus/index.asp

It has been in Europe for 17 years.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 11/27/2007 10:04:59 PM

+1 Boost

There's enthusiast spouting crap like no one remembers the last time he was shot down.

Over 50% of BMW's are the 3series, soon to be shifting down to the economy 1 series (I'm sure the Corolloa is scared).

Lexus sales are spead out. 1/3 RX, 1/3 ES/IS, the rest are truck and GS/LS sales. They won't live and die depending on how much some yuppy is willing to lease for a badge.

I recall several months ago a second article repeating that BMW sales are increasing, but their profit is flat. Apparently no one at BMW is smart enough to realize that you can't increase profits when you start to give your cars away.

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 11/27/2007 10:45:41 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

"Lexus sales are spead out. 1/3 RX, 1/3 ES/IS, the rest are truck and GS/LS sales. They won't live and die depending on how much some yuppy is willing to lease for a badge."

Really? Prove it.

RX and ES alone account for well over half of Lexus sales.

Here are August 2007 sales, because I couldn't find anything better:

http://thepassionatepursuit.com/2007/09/05/
lexus-usa-august-2007-sales-report/

The 3 Series is less than half of BMW sales (Oct 2007). Go halfway down the page for a model-to-model breakdown.

http://www.autospectator.com/cars/bmw-corporate/
0033086-bmw-group-reports-96-percent-increase-october-2007-sales

enthusiastx11 - 11/28/2007 3:54:04 PM

-2 Boost

huu:

i use facts unlike you.

and you apparently don't even know your favorite brand. as S4 said, ES and RX alone make up 2/3 of the lexus brand. IS is next in volume. and all the rest make up the remainder.

and what's wrong with the 3-series? if you haven't noticed it comes in more than dozen different models (sedans, coupes, wagons, convertibles), gets one rave review after another and dominates the compact luxury car class in volume.

the 3-series is a pillar of strength for BMW.

huu76 - 11/27/2007 10:08:30 PM

+1 Boost

btw, BMW and MB merging is a dumb idea. First, when one has a recall, so will the other. Secondly, fans of each brand will look down on their cars having parts from the other.
Does MB want Chris Bangle ruining their car designs as well? I doubt it. I highly doubt MB is really in the mood to merge again since they still own part of Chrysler.

reply to this comment

TRacer - 11/27/2007 10:15:32 PM

0 Boost

If I was BMW I'd be very careful getting into any kind of relationship with Mercedes unless they have the upper hand.

reply to this comment

enthusiastx11 - 11/28/2007 3:57:07 PM

-1 Boost

you're entitled to your opinion.

but year after year more than a million people worldwide totally disagree with you and buy a BMW.

and please don't start with the 'badge whore' crap. brands become famous because the product gets a reputation for being better than others. BMWs are better performers. therefore, they sell more.

reply to this comment

JUGNU - 11/28/2007 6:07:29 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

They also get GS300 and LS430 through special order. (Before 2005 with Toyota badges)

If u still don’t believe, I'll provide u a link soon.

Rupert

Everyone knows Lexus was aimed at the world's biggest market, America from beginning.

That’s why u can see word 'USUALLY' in my earlier post.

'Usually when companies start growing, first effects is seen in their home regions.....'

Lexus's case was unusual, it's home market was more like America, and it has done well there. So u can't argue on that.

Btw it’s now that the brand has grown a new direction, a new deign language...etc mean it's ready now to compete in worldwide markets.

Maybe still there is time (as more diesels, high end sports sedans (with F Division), a supercar (LF-A) are coming)

JUGNU

reply to this comment

JUGNU - 11/28/2007 6:11:37 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

correction.....above wrong post

This is the real post.

S4

"but whoever's ahead in India is anyone's guess"

we are not playing a guessing game here. Lexus is way more in India and neighbors. Both the Lexus badged cars (US Specifications, Gulf specifications...etc) and Toyota badged cars (Japan specifications).

For example India get both Lexus LX470 (US spec and Gulf spec, available through special order) and Toyota Land Cruiser CygnusII, rebadged LX470 (Japan spec).

They also get GS300 and LS430 through special order. (Before 2005 with Toyota badges)

If u still don’t believe, I'll provide u a link soon.

Rupert

Everyone knows Lexus was aimed at the world's biggest market, America from beginning.

That’s why u can see word 'USUALLY' in my earlier post.

'Usually when companies start growing, first effects is seen in their home regions.....'

Lexus's case was unusual, it's home market was more like America, and it has done well there. So u can't argue on that.

Btw it’s now that the brand has grown a new direction, a new deign language...etc mean it's ready now to compete in worldwide markets.

Maybe still there is time (as more diesels, high end sports sedans (with F Division), a supercar (LF-A) are coming)

JUGNU

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 11/28/2007 7:52:39 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

"we are not playing a guessing game here. Lexus is way more in India and neighbors."

PROVE IT! Sales numbers, please!

ThierryHenry14 - 11/30/2007 3:12:28 PM

0 Boost

S4... Don't you know that Toyota can make numbers up for sales in India, along with anywhere else, because its a division of toyota.

chilipalmer - 11/28/2007 11:55:51 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

For all of those claiming that the Lexus models are "rebadged Toyotas" especially the RX, the highlander now sits on it's own platform and will not share it's platform with the next generation RX. The Camry and ES use the same frame but the similarity stops there.. Have any of those making these claims actaully driven the two side by side? If you had, you would know that the two are worlds apart in their refinement. Every car manufacturer in the world will share it's platforms between vehicles. What's next are you going to tell us that the Ford Fusion and Mazda 6 are the same? Not if you drove one after the other, these cars do share a platform, but one is far superior to the other.

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enthusiastx11 - 11/28/2007 4:01:07 PM

0 Boost

"The Camry and ES use the same frame but the similarity stops there"

WRONG. same chassis, same engine, same transmission...in fact, the mechanical components of the two cars are virtually identical.

the sheetmetal is different, but really similar.

so it all boils down to a badge, some leather and a sound system. why would anyone not just buy a loaded camry for thousands less?

S4cabriofoxone - 11/28/2007 7:57:09 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

"For all of those claiming that the Lexus models are "rebadged Toyotas" especially the RX, the highlander now sits on it's own platform and will not share it's platform with the next generation RX."

What makes you think this? It has not been announced by Lexus, and it would be very logical for the next RX to be based off the new Highlander platform.

jcntsl - 11/28/2007 12:25:07 PM

+5 Boost

It is hilarious to see everyone on here as if they 'work' for these respective auto companies. Toyota shares their engine with Lexus. Does that make lexus any less a luxury car than say BMW or Mercedes? Absolutely not. Cars are so good nowadays that the worst car that is currently in production now would blow the doors on a mercedes/bmw 10-15 years ago. I personally love the BMW M3... and once it comes out I'll be the first to buy one. However, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't consider an audi or a lexus in the future because they share engines. VW and Toyota engines are damn good engines. Anyone wanting a thrilling sports car experience need only look to Lotus and their use of the toyota engine.
Stop defending these companies... just because you bought a BMW or Lexus doesn't mean you own, or work for these companies. BMW is not more prestigious than Lexus, and vice versa. Anyone that can afford these luxury brands has done something right in their lives. Stop pulling out your d!@#cks to see who is bigger.

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RealitySmack - 11/28/2007 1:07:12 PM

+4 Boost

Exactly! That's called a "True" enthusiast talk! Unlike all the "wannabes" on here that think they are enthusiast only because they like to modify their cars and search on wikipedia for facts that match their own opinions to start a conversation.

S4cabriofoxone - 11/28/2007 7:59:02 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost