36 Votes

Should BMW buy Mercedes stake to thwart Audi, Lexus?...

irie77 submitted on 11/27/2007 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 11:12:02 AM

117 user comments | Category: Spy Shots | Source: | SOURCE: www.detnews.com

German luxury car manufacturers BMW and Mercedes are riding the crest of a wave, growing richer as they sell more and more premium vehicles to traditional and emerging markets around the world.

But increasingly effective competition from Audi, Lexus, and Porsche, is ganging up against the traditional market leaders, and according to a report from investment banker Morgan Stanley, the interlopers have two ace cards which are likely to become ever more powerful...

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About the Author

— irie77 (View Profile)

User Comments

there's virtually nothing insightful here...

audi and lexus derive cost savings by using volkwagen/toyota engines, transmission and other components in their cars. there's some new. bmw and mercedes don't. wow.

could also explain why bmw and mercedes command enormous premiums...
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 11:36:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

please....BMW still commands a high premium on the 328 even though it's using a GM tranmission.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 11:45:35 AM | | Votes: -2

GM transmission? what are you talking about? please do share details.

GM wishes it had BMW transmissions...
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 1:30:00 PM | | Votes: -1

The 328 automatic uses a GM tranny. The manual is a ZF.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 2:56:11 PM | | Votes: 2

I think BMW use ZF automatics in all their cars...I know the X3's auto is a ZF, I'm sure the 3 series is the same.
— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 4:46:49 PM | | Votes: 2

ZF transmission are manufactured by ZF Getriebe GmbH. Not GM. They are selling to other company as well:

Land Rover, BMW, Bentley, Maserati, Ford Audi, and others.
— Lavic (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 4:56:55 PM | | Votes: 6

he means across cheaper segents there isnt a car brand lower than BMW that it shares anything with....and any car not BMW branded that shares anything with a BMW is much more expensive than it is and that is a short list of 2 cars......Lexus has 4 cars that are just nicer versions of the mainstream mass produced Toyotas they are based on......GX, LX, ES, and RX....while every engine currently in the Lexus stable is shared with a Toyota minus the V8 in the passenger cars....the almighty ls460l shares its hybrid powertrain with the prius....so with that said there is obvious cost savings there...the problem is why isnt Lexus cheaper....sounds like a rip off with savings like that. The same goes for Audi with VW, Lamborghini, and Porsche.....everything in the Audi linueup is a version of a VW. The engines are all shared even as low down as the gti, the a8 shares its chassis with the phaeton, and 2 other VW group cars. the Q7 the porsche, and VW. the R8 lamborghini. the list goes on what they are sharing, and from a quality stand point VW interiors are right there with Audi, so why the price difference at all.....Clearly BMW is a company, and ALL of its competitors are simply Divisions, Mercedes also isnt sharing as "much" with lower vehicles except some components with the 300, and of course the ill fated old slk based crossfire
— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:17:57 PM | | Votes: -1

ill give credit to Jaguar also the 2 "real" Jaguars the XJ and XK dont share ford parts, but they do share engines and transmissions with Land Rover for obvious reasons what other engine would you stick in a Land Rover from the Ford Stable without ruining the brands prestige.
— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:23:31 PM | | Votes: -1

bleek:

"Lexus doesn't have any cheap engines that it takes from toyota"

WRONG. the engines in the three best selling lexus models (RX, ES and IS) come directly from toyota. in the case of the ES, the entire powertrain is identical to a camry. in other models, it's just a modified version of similiar toyota engines.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:45:53 PM | | Votes: 2

Oh c'mon Bleek.....are you sh**ttn' me? The ES350 and RX350 use the same platform and engine in the Camry and Rav4.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 9:00:00 PM | | Votes: 4

V6 versions that is.....
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 9:01:03 PM | | Votes: 3

bleek518 says:

"LOL just the typical badge whore talk."

He also says:

"Lexus will be the #1 luxury brand in the world 10-15 years from now. Mark my words. BMW and MB are going down."

THAT is typical "badge whore" or "fanboy" talk, if you will. You need to stop being so annoying. You are the typical crazed Lexus fan--but the sad thing is, the things you say aren't posted to make fun of Lexus fans; they're true. What do you BACK UP your claims with? I don't want to hear "Lexus went up 2,000,582% in Europe this year" because if you started last year with selling -3 cars, that's not much at all.

What is it in your mind that makes you think BMW, Merc and Audi will all just die off? They are more competitive than ever, and not only between the three of them. Lexus is looming distantly in their rear views, but they know they have to prepare. Whatever Lexus can do in world markets, the German three can do better.

"so BMW's 360 horse power V8 with 6 speed tranny costs more then Lexuses 380 hoser power V8 with 8 speed tranny??? Lexus doesn't have any cheap engines that it takes from toyota"

BMW's 360hp V8 will be upgraded to a smaller, much more powerful unit with next year's 7 Series.

Since when are the "Lexus" 3.5L and 5.7L NOT Toyota engines?

"and BMW spreads their engines as well. even the V8 in the new M3 is just the V10 from the M5 minus 2 cylinders, not a brand new engine."

And??? What's your point? I would say that a V8 derived from an award-winning, F1-linked V10 is a damn good V8 and any sports coupe should have one. Unlike the IS-F's unnecessarily huge (5.0L) engine, BMW's 4.0 makes the same power, but with better fuel efficiency, lower weight, better handling and thus, better acceleration. It's hard to argue with that. It's also grin-inducingly high-revving, like its 3.2 inline six forebear.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:07:28 PM | | Votes: 7

There are many Toyota/Lexus models that share chassis and parts, are you kidding me?
— kablaam (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 12:43:03 AM | | Votes: 3

Lexus GS = Avalon
Lexus ES = Camry
Lexus RX = Highlander

You can't blame them for doing it, but that is how they save their $$$.
— kablaam (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 12:46:11 AM | | Votes: 1

VW use economies of scale to improve internal profits NOT to save its loyal lemmings $$$! That is a fact and it is the fact that keeps me loyal to brands who although are more expense still offer a pure product worthy of bragging about! VW is even going to share its Veyron motor with Bentley! How cheap is that! Imagine a Bugatti driver being told that his car is part of a parts bin production! Same for Bentley! SIS!
— rnsaza (View Profile)

Posted on 12/2/2007 7:05:41 AM | | Votes: 1

Lexus already out sells bmw in the U.S.,after a flat 08' the game is on,they will be a dominate #1 in the U.S.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 11:53:37 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -15

The flat performance for 2007 by Lexus could haunt them. They are predicting yet another flat 2008 as well.

BMW on the other hand it still projecting blistering sales.

The problem?

Lexus and Toyota demographically share a very similar audience. This demographic has been hit very hard by the housing downturn and turbulent economic times. There are also few significant changes in the line up for 2008 as well.

BMW's demographics on the other hand are a bit more insulated from this (by the benefit of higher incomes or less stretched budgets?). Plus BMW is on the verge of several new models being released, penetrating more areas of the market than ever before.

It is a bit too early to tell if Lexus has rested on it laurels too long. But it is a fair call to say, their #1 status in the US is squarely in BMW's cross hairs.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 12:51:53 PM | | Votes: 6

lexus does not outsell BMW in passenger cars. never has.

lexus is highest volume only because of the camry-based RX mommy-mobile SUV which sell over 100,000.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 1:31:33 PM | | Votes: 5

AND the RX is long overdue for a redesign. We traded our RX330 in yesterday, and I wasn't very sad to see it go. Not bad, but not great either. The X5 4.8i is a massive improvement. I'll write an article when I have time to snap better pictures.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:44:25 PM | | Votes: 4

bleek:

so lexus is playing follow the leader as usual. LS to 7. GS to 5. IS to 3. and now something to compete with the 1. and then diesel engines....see a pattern?
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:49:39 PM | | Votes: 2

"and all the germans are following Lexus by copying hybrid technology."

No, they're only doing it for profit. An Audi rep said flat out that they're not very interested in hybrids, but only in the money they generate. It's all about image. In fact, Merc, BMW and Audi are all focused on diesels. Better, more powerful, more fuel efficient diesels. Cleaner diesels. More refined diesels. You get it. Because they have a LOT more potential than hybrids in the long run.

"and Lexus won't make diesels. they'll make diesels combined with hybrid technology. completely different and much better."

Oh, really? Because the last time I checked the IS220d was already available. Since you obviously know European people so well ("all London CEOs buying LS600hLs"), you should also know that diesels MATTER in the European market.

And I was just thinking... it wasn't Lexus who recently introduced a diesel-hybrid concept car, was it? Oh, no. It was Mercedes-Benz and the S400 Bluetec Hybrid concept. And that car already had all the specs. 40MPG, 0-60 in 7 sec, all the luxury and style the S-Class offers. It will be available in 2010 or a bit sooner.

Lexus is still stuck with the 17MPG LS600hL that does 0-60 in 6 sec, but is meant to compete with the twelve-cylinder sedans. LOL. The S400 will also be $10K-20K less expensive than the hybrid Lexus.

"you're such a moron. you might as well say Lexus is copying germnas by putting windshield wipers to clean the windshield. lol little troll boy"

I don't even know what to say to this. All I hear is how this new car looks like a Lexus, that new car looks like a Lexus. But DEAR GOD, oh NO, it is simply impossible for a Lexus to have "copied" any other car. Even if they used the chassis if the Merc W124 S-Class to make the LS400! No, that didn't happen! You just imagined it!

Tool.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:32:17 PM | | Votes: 7

Mercedes and Fiat just broke off talks of a joint collaboration.BMW decided not to buy Volvo,Jaguar or Alfa. That just goes to show the problems both German Luxury car makers have in Alliances and mergers. To cut their costs the best they can do is build vehicles in countries where labor rates are lower then Germany
— mini22 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 12:06:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Remember when dealing with luxury brands, sales volume isn't a good benchmark.
— nickymayne (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 12:13:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

you're right. sales prices--and particularly the premium paid relative to competitors---is FAR more important.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 1:32:59 PM | | Votes: 0

Apples and Oranges. As it was said above Audi uses VW components, and Lexus uses Toyota, and Inifniti uses Nissan. Volvo even uses some Ford stuff as does Jaguar. BMW and Mercedes are solely luxury cars and they make nothing more. Except for Mini which is owned by BMW and doing very well for itself I might add.

MB did have partner with Chrysler but that didn't hold to well for Chrysler or MB as both sides lost in reliability and ratings.

No need for two rivals like this to merge, their products are fantastic and the new C-class gives me a woody each time I see one on the road now. That big flaring nose and headlamps are awesome to stare at.
— Whelan (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 12:25:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

And Lamborghini uses Audi parts.

I know because I have a friend that had a 2004 Gallardo and I saw the parts in the engine compartment ;)
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 12:39:36 PM | | Votes: -1

And Audi uses Lambo parts as well. Just a merry parts swapping family.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 12:52:48 PM | | Votes: 3

bleek:

you're just full of misinformation.

BMW does not use peugot engines. they're all BMW. they do--like everyone else--buy components from other suppliers. but you won't find anything but a BMW engine in one of their cars.

guess you got this info from the same sources that told you the ZF transmissions in some BMWs are from GM.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:52:32 PM | | Votes: 0

"uh. like I care when BMW's transmissions come from."

apparently you do care, as you are the one who initiated a conversation about BMW transmissions with your false information...
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:08:15 PM | | Votes: 1

"guess you got this info from the same sources that told you the ZF transmissions in some BMWs are from GM."

hey guy....i didn't say that GM made ZF transmissions...that doesn't make any sense. the Auto tranny in the 328 is infact a GM tranny from France......the manual trany for the 328 is a ZF(not GM)
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:12:17 PM | | Votes: 1

the 335 automatic and manual transmissions are both ZF transmissions.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:14:50 PM | | Votes: 2

If BMW didn't have the 3'series the game would be over,that'a 70% of their sales.Their holding on to that market share buy buying it with lease support.All their models are support except for low volume models like the M3.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 1:41:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

correction here in the US they hold best selling in the class of the above the 3 series with the 5 series
— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:19:45 PM | | Votes: 1

and lets not forget about the X3, and its command of its market
— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:20:46 PM | | Votes: -2

bleek:

got a source?>
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 3:47:51 PM | | Votes: 0

here it goes with percents again.

This is an example.

If BMW sold 1 million cars, and they sold 180,000 $70k+ cars, thats 18%.
On the other hand, if lexus sold 100,000 cars, and 30,000 is from $70k+ cars, thats 30%.

Wow!!! 30% is bigger than 18%, but is 30K bigger than 180k?
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 12:21:13 PM | | Votes: 0

I agree MB and BMW are way more in emerging/developing markets/countries than their rivals as they r very famous/renowned worldwide.
(In fact it’s the reputation more than anything else which is driving all these unparallel sales in the emerging markets).

But this could change real soon. Not that their (MB, BMW) sales will decrease but other’s (Audi, Lexus...etc) will increase. In fact maybe in some years sales wise they'll be equal.

For example, through Toyota, Lexus' reach is far more than the individual and comparably small companies like BMW and MB.
U see even in some markets, example India and neighbors where Lexus is not officially sold yet, they r still present there and in quite good numbers (Note that in almost all markets u can special order any Lexus model through the Toyota dealers, where it's not officially sold).

All in all in the next 5-7 years i see Lexus growing a lot worldwide. They have and will start entering more markets officially soon.

as Lexus is a growing Brand whereas BMW and MB sales are quite steady worldwide.

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 2:23:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Every company will grow in a new market. its just the difference between growing, per say, in India, from 40,000 to 50,000, which is a mear 20%, versus 1000 to 2000, which is 100%. Growing means absolutely nothing.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 5:24:47 PM | | Votes: 4

BMW and Merc aren't way ahead of others in emerging markets, as you stated. Audi is a dominant force in China, but whoever's ahead in India is anyone's guess.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:46:11 PM | | Votes: 4

before lexus can expand in any meaningful way outside of the US, they need NEW PRODUCT. diesels, wagons, true performance cars, etc.

the current lineup is geared to very american tastes...most of the emerging world has taste similar to europeans....they expect comfort, technology, performance AND handling in a luxury car.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:55:04 PM | | Votes: 1

JUNGU - ever been to China? guess what brand has more cars on the road than anyone? Not Lexus
— qball (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 8:08:38 AM | | Votes: 2

But this could change real soon. Not that their (MB, BMW) sales will decrease but other’s (Audi, Lexus...etc) will increase. In fact maybe in some years sales wise they'll be equal.

Audi yes, and this is already evident in Europe. But Lexus...
— Czelinski (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 2:59:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

"Audi yes, and this is already evident in Europe.but Lexus..."

Lexus yes, and this is already evident in Asia.but Audi...

usually when companies start growing, first effects is seen in their home regions.They satrt from there.

Lexus--- Asia
Audi--- Germany

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 3:15:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

So Lexus' biggest growth has been for the last 17 years in the US...yet somehow the first effects of growth have been seen in Asia???
This post makes no sense Jugnu, as who is the market leader for premium cars in China? Audi.
— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 4:49:01 PM | | Votes: 4

I hope you didn't mean that seriously. Check your numbers again, to see who is leading in China (Asia's biggest market).

Besides, like I said, growth is relative, and needs comparison. A growth of 1% can mean a bigger growth than a growth of 100%.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 5:27:43 PM | | Votes: 3

Theirry - Am I the wrong one? I genuinely thought it was Audi who was leading the premium sector...is it Buick then?
— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:18:22 PM | | Votes: -1

Rupert, Thierry was replying to JUGNU.

And yes I think it is Buick, but I don't consider them to really be a premium brand. Their interiors are still cheap in China and the cars are very bland. The "real" luxury brands in China (with significant sales) are Audi and BMW, respectively.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:47:41 PM | | Votes: 0

per rupert's comment, your logic fails jugnu.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 7:56:33 PM | | Votes: 1

sorry rupert, I didnt mean you. It was for JUGNU.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 3:08:17 PM | | Votes: 1

Lexus--- Asia
Audi--- Europe

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 3:16:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Audi- China
Audi- Europe

Lexus-US

China > US in next five years.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:48:12 PM | | Votes: 1

correction bleek:

BMW beats lexus in china so far in 2007.

in the first SIX months of 2007: "Sales of the BMW brand, especially China-made 5-Series sedans, rose 36 percent to 22,891 units."

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/08/01/056887.html

in the first EIGHT months of 2007, "Lexus has sold 16,885 vehicles in the first eight months this year"

http://www.gasgoo.com/autobiz/3782/China-imported-16-885-Lexus-vehicles-in-Jan-Aug-up-160-percent.html

so BMW is well ahead of lexus in china. and since some of you are so into meaningless growth rates, that's more the 50% growth for BMW year over year.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:06:14 PM | | Votes: 1

"since some of you are so into meaningless growth rates, that's more the 50% growth for BMW year over year."

I couldn't help but notice the link says Lexus up 160%.....I'd say that, that much improvement far surpasses BMWs 32% approx, 5 fold. At that rate, BMW won't be ahead for long.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:44:03 PM | | Votes: 3

correciton.....36%....I take back the 5 fold.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:45:23 PM | | Votes: 2

Unfortunately for Lexus, you need Chinese built cars to survive in the CHINESE MARKET.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/10/audis-china-sal.html

Audi sales in China total 76,168 for the first nine months of the year... surpassing those of the US, for the first time.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:36:26 PM | | Votes: 2

how old are we bleek? do you think that lexus will maintain a 160% sales growth for the next 10 years?
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 12:26:39 PM | | Votes: 0

I'd love to see a Chinese company buy Mercedes and run them in the ditch like they did with Chrysler!
— TTRaceRR (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 5:20:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

What a stupid comment.
— Bill (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 6:34:53 PM | | Votes: 1

well, 17 years in britain and lexus is still very tiny compared to all the german brands. got an explanation for that? and how come lexus isn't selling well in japan?
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 8:12:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

"exactly. 50% of BMW's sales in USA are the 3 series for the average price of $40,000. and that share is even larger outside of USA

the same is true for Audi. even Audi execs admited that if the A4 doesn't sell- Audi will die."

That's OBVIOUS. In any lineup, the least-expensive car or truck will be the bread-and-butter. I think it was a bit overstated in saying Audi would "die" without the A4, but just like BMW and the 3, the A4 is the key to many worldwide markets and it deserves its success.

How is it any different than Lexus's RX being the best-seller here? Without the RX, they would make the top five in US luxury sales, but nowhere near #1. The same applies to BMW and the 3 Series. It's also easy to forget that the RX350 is a sub-$40K car. I don't care about the average transaction price... the average transaction price for a 3 Series is well over $40K, also, but you have left that out so I'll do the same for Lexus.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:40:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

bleek:

so lexus was just in markets outside of the US for fun? no. they launched in europe in 1989 to make a profit. and they've sold little since then.

here's the link to lexus uk:

http://www.lexus.co.uk/about_lexus/index.asp
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 3:46:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Lexus Spain, saying

"Desde nuestro lanzamiento en 1989"

http://www.mundolexus.com/about_lexus/index.asp

Lexus France, saying:

"Depuis le lancement de notre marque en 1989"

http://www.lexus.fr/about_lexus/index.asp

It has been in Europe for 17 years.
— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 5:01:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

There's enthusiast spouting crap like no one remembers the last time he was shot down.

Over 50% of BMW's are the 3series, soon to be shifting down to the economy 1 series (I'm sure the Corolloa is scared).

Lexus sales are spead out. 1/3 RX, 1/3 ES/IS, the rest are truck and GS/LS sales. They won't live and die depending on how much some yuppy is willing to lease for a badge.

I recall several months ago a second article repeating that BMW sales are increasing, but their profit is flat. Apparently no one at BMW is smart enough to realize that you can't increase profits when you start to give your cars away.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:04:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

"Lexus sales are spead out. 1/3 RX, 1/3 ES/IS, the rest are truck and GS/LS sales. They won't live and die depending on how much some yuppy is willing to lease for a badge."

Really? Prove it.

RX and ES alone account for well over half of Lexus sales.

Here are August 2007 sales, because I couldn't find anything better:

http://thepassionatepursuit.com/2007/09/05/
lexus-usa-august-2007-sales-report/

The 3 Series is less than half of BMW sales (Oct 2007). Go halfway down the page for a model-to-model breakdown.

http://www.autospectator.com/cars/bmw-corporate/
0033086-bmw-group-reports-96-percent-increase-october-2007-sales
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:45:41 PM | | Votes: -1

huu:

i use facts unlike you.

and you apparently don't even know your favorite brand. as S4 said, ES and RX alone make up 2/3 of the lexus brand. IS is next in volume. and all the rest make up the remainder.

and what's wrong with the 3-series? if you haven't noticed it comes in more than dozen different models (sedans, coupes, wagons, convertibles), gets one rave review after another and dominates the compact luxury car class in volume.

the 3-series is a pillar of strength for BMW.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 3:54:04 PM | | Votes: -2

btw, BMW and MB merging is a dumb idea. First, when one has a recall, so will the other. Secondly, fans of each brand will look down on their cars having parts from the other.
Does MB want Chris Bangle ruining their car designs as well? I doubt it. I highly doubt MB is really in the mood to merge again since they still own part of Chrysler.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:08:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

If I was BMW I'd be very careful getting into any kind of relationship with Mercedes unless they have the upper hand.
— TTRaceRR (View Profile)

Posted on 11/27/2007 10:15:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

you're entitled to your opinion.

but year after year more than a million people worldwide totally disagree with you and buy a BMW.

and please don't start with the 'badge whore' crap. brands become famous because the product gets a reputation for being better than others. BMWs are better performers. therefore, they sell more.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 3:57:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

They also get GS300 and LS430 through special order. (Before 2005 with Toyota badges)

If u still don’t believe, I'll provide u a link soon.

Rupert

Everyone knows Lexus was aimed at the world's biggest market, America from beginning.

That’s why u can see word 'USUALLY' in my earlier post.

'Usually when companies start growing, first effects is seen in their home regions.....'

Lexus's case was unusual, it's home market was more like America, and it has done well there. So u can't argue on that.

Btw it’s now that the brand has grown a new direction, a new deign language...etc mean it's ready now to compete in worldwide markets.

Maybe still there is time (as more diesels, high end sports sedans (with F Division), a supercar (LF-A) are coming)

JUGNU
— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 6:07:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

correction.....above wrong post

This is the real post.

S4

"but whoever's ahead in India is anyone's guess"

we are not playing a guessing game here. Lexus is way more in India and neighbors. Both the Lexus badged cars (US Specifications, Gulf specifications...etc) and Toyota badged cars (Japan specifications).

For example India get both Lexus LX470 (US spec and Gulf spec, available through special order) and Toyota Land Cruiser CygnusII, rebadged LX470 (Japan spec).

They also get GS300 and LS430 through special order. (Before 2005 with Toyota badges)

If u still don’t believe, I'll provide u a link soon.

Rupert

Everyone knows Lexus was aimed at the world's biggest market, America from beginning.

That’s why u can see word 'USUALLY' in my earlier post.

'Usually when companies start growing, first effects is seen in their home regions.....'

Lexus's case was unusual, it's home market was more like America, and it has done well there. So u can't argue on that.

Btw it’s now that the brand has grown a new direction, a new deign language...etc mean it's ready now to compete in worldwide markets.

Maybe still there is time (as more diesels, high end sports sedans (with F Division), a supercar (LF-A) are coming)

JUGNU

— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 6:11:37 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

"we are not playing a guessing game here. Lexus is way more in India and neighbors."

PROVE IT! Sales numbers, please!
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 7:52:39 PM | | Votes: -2

S4... Don't you know that Toyota can make numbers up for sales in India, along with anywhere else, because its a division of toyota.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 3:12:28 PM | | Votes: 0

For all of those claiming that the Lexus models are "rebadged Toyotas" especially the RX, the highlander now sits on it's own platform and will not share it's platform with the next generation RX. The Camry and ES use the same frame but the similarity stops there.. Have any of those making these claims actaully driven the two side by side? If you had, you would know that the two are worlds apart in their refinement. Every car manufacturer in the world will share it's platforms between vehicles. What's next are you going to tell us that the Ford Fusion and Mazda 6 are the same? Not if you drove one after the other, these cars do share a platform, but one is far superior to the other.
— chilipalmer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 11:55:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

"The Camry and ES use the same frame but the similarity stops there"

WRONG. same chassis, same engine, same transmission...in fact, the mechanical components of the two cars are virtually identical.

the sheetmetal is different, but really similar.

so it all boils down to a badge, some leather and a sound system. why would anyone not just buy a loaded camry for thousands less?
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 4:01:07 PM | | Votes: 0

"For all of those claiming that the Lexus models are "rebadged Toyotas" especially the RX, the highlander now sits on it's own platform and will not share it's platform with the next generation RX."

What makes you think this? It has not been announced by Lexus, and it would be very logical for the next RX to be based off the new Highlander platform.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 7:57:09 PM | | Votes: -1

It is hilarious to see everyone on here as if they 'work' for these respective auto companies. Toyota shares their engine with Lexus. Does that make lexus any less a luxury car than say BMW or Mercedes? Absolutely not. Cars are so good nowadays that the worst car that is currently in production now would blow the doors on a mercedes/bmw 10-15 years ago. I personally love the BMW M3... and once it comes out I'll be the first to buy one. However, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't consider an audi or a lexus in the future because they share engines. VW and Toyota engines are damn good engines. Anyone wanting a thrilling sports car experience need only look to Lotus and their use of the toyota engine.
Stop defending these companies... just because you bought a BMW or Lexus doesn't mean you own, or work for these companies. BMW is not more prestigious than Lexus, and vice versa. Anyone that can afford these luxury brands has done something right in their lives. Stop pulling out your d!@#cks to see who is bigger.
— jcntsl (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 12:25:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Exactly! That's called a "True" enthusiast talk! Unlike all the "wannabes" on here that think they are enthusiast only because they like to modify their cars and search on wikipedia for facts that match their own opinions to start a conversation.
— RealitySmack (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 1:07:12 PM | | Votes: 4

I completely agree.

It's stupid comments like "Lexus rules Asia" that piss me off.

"...just because you bought a BMW or Lexus doesn't mean you own, or work for these companies."

Actually, I have Audi stock (-;

And it's gone up sevenfold since I bought it two years ago. Waiting for it to split.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 7:59:02 PM | | Votes: 2

"...just because you bought a BMW or Lexus doesn't mean you own, or work for these companies."

Actually, I own a BMW and a Lexus and I worked for Toyota. But, I like to consider myself a True enthusiast that gives credit to all companies regardless of who or where it's from and I'm not bragging or anything here. I state the facts and look at everything from business and practicality point of view, hence, the scree name!
— RealitySmack (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 8:27:24 PM | | Votes: 4

BMW used GM trannies. GM builds great trannies so there is nothing wrong with that.

http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/transmissions/GMtransmissions.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_4L30-E_transmission

http://jalopnik.com/cars/spy-photos/bmw-7-series-spotted-entering-gms-milford-proving-grounds-322274.php

MB and BMW may work together if the benefits are greater than the risks.
— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 8:10:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I work for a Lexus Dealer and the "reason" the RX did not receive it's redesign with the Highlander, is because Lexus wants to develop the next RX on it's own platform.

Someone else corrected me on saying that the similarity stops at the frame, you are correct the Engine and tranny are the same. The ES350 is built purely for road isolation, I worked for Toyota for years and can tell you quite confidently that while every Toyota salesman who can tell his head from a hole in the wall will say "the Camry and the ES are the same" after driving them side by side anyone could tell that the ES was far smoother, quieter and more refined than the Camry.

All this typing gives me an Idea;

A blind driving survey in which the Camry is built with both the Toyota specs and the Lexus specs and see if anyone could guess correctly which they were driving!

And before I get the badge whore dropped on me, my last 5 cars were; Audi A4, Honda S2000, a pair of Acura Integras and an Acura 3.2 CL Type S.
— chilipalmer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 9:20:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Tell them to fix a few things...

We traded in our RX330 for a BMW X5 4.8i on Monday, and it is a HUGE improvement, in every respect.

Obviously, the BMW drives better and is faster. But that's not half of it. It's also quieter (RX had terrible wind noise), smoother, and has much higher-quality leather covering all surfaces. It has real, gorgeous bamboo wood trim, as opposed to a few of the pieces of fake wood in the RX's interior. The iDrive is not simple to use by any means, but it controls much more of the car than Lexus's system. I hated how the passenger doors were always locked, and we had to go around the other side to the driver's door in order to open them. With the X5 we don't do that... just put your fingers on the door handle you want and it will unlock (Comfort Access). Put in heated rear seats as well as rear-seat climate control. Use higher quality materials all around, to match the more substantial offerings from Audi and BMW. Don't create such an unsafe blind spot with the C-pillar.

There, I'm done.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 12:13:36 AM | | Votes: 0

Yes. Even though two cars may share some features does not necessarily make them the SAME. I've done a lot of research and work on chassis, suspension, & powertrain to know that some body structures are same for 1 major reason. And that is to make it cost effective in production of the vehicles. It reduces the need for more investments in buying big/heavy equipments, setting up processes inside the plant, etc. All companies do this, not just one! And it's good because it makes sense to do it this way from a business stand point!

The difference is the final product and I'm sure one would notice the difference when he/she drives them. Just like how all chocolates are not made the same and each encompasses its own unique flavors so, do different cars.
— RealitySmack (View Profile)

Posted on 11/28/2007 9:41:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

BMW has been buying business the last several years,because of pressure from Lexus.They are not making near the money they used to.Before Lexus came along they and mercedes were ripping off americans big time.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 11:07:08 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

autopro has hit this one right on the head! BMW sets the residuals for their leases incredibly high, how do they do this without losing big at the lease end? They have already guranteed a buyer at lease end in the selling dealer, the only out that a dealer has is if the vehicle has been involved in an accident. I am not saying that this is not a genius act, they have sold more new vehicles, and inflated the resale of pre-owned as the dealer has to sell the vehicles after paying for reconditioning up to "certified" specs therefore driving up what a private party can sell their vehicle for as well.

I'm not saying that it's wrong, just that auto pro is dead on!
— chilipalmer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 1:27:16 PM | | Votes: 1

BMW had record profits last year.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 5:08:54 PM | | Votes: 1

oh really?

bmw made 3.2 billion euros in profit in 2005, up to 4.1 billion in 2006 and set to beat it again in 2007.

and since lexus is part of toyota we HAVE NO IDEA how profitable they are--if at all---to the parent company. also, don't forget that lexus is selling its cars at MUCH LOWER prices than competitors. for example, LS starts at $61,000, S starts at $88,000.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 11:44:28 AM | | Votes: 0

chili:

"BMW sets the residuals for their leases incredibly high"

manufacturers don't artificially 'set' residuals. they're based on third-party projections. no bank would finance a lease or purchase based on cooked numbers from a manufacturer. get a clue.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 11:47:44 AM | | Votes: 0

Yea saxaphone and you spent 65 grand for the X5 an you could have gotten an RX350 with nav for about 41500.00 you got ripped off.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 4:42:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

lol saxaphone
— Denali (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 4:43:13 AM | | Votes: 2

pay 70% of the price for half the car? Good choice with the X5...
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 12:31:44 PM | | Votes: 0

BMW Transmissions

It's a GM transmission made under contract in France. If you will look on your window sticker you will see part of your car was made in France...that part is your transmission. BMW has been using GM trans for the last 15 years. and maybe more. it doesnt matter if GM or ZF, or even GetRag make a trans, they all suck.

The 4L30-E was an automatic transmission developed and produced by General Motors. It was developed for light-duty use in longitudinal engine rear-wheel drive vehicles, replacing the similar TH180/3L30. The 4L30-E was used in many European vehicles, including the BMW 3- and 5 Series, and Opel Omega/Cadillac Catera. It was replaced by the 5-speed 5L40-E/5L50. The 4L30-E was built at GM's transmission plant in Strasbourg, Franc.

Here are some complaints
BMW Transmission Problems

• Transmission Failures Plague BMW Owners
• New BMW to Burn Hydrogen and Gasoline
• Gay Automotive Website Takes on BMW

Gene of Orland Park IL (11/26/07)
I own a 2000 323ci bmw with 97000 miles...and like everybody else on this site I lost reverse. The car is in perfect condition and well maintained. I am very disappointed in BMW...

Daniel of Anacortes WA (11/26/07)
After owning my 2001 325i for one year now, the reverse has recently stopped working. I am extremely upset at the matter due to the fact that I now know it's a common problem Bimmer owners all over America are having.

My car just hit 64,000 miles the other day and I'm only the second owner. Both the previous owner and I took very good care of the car and there's no excuse that the transmission needs to be replaced this early in my cars life. Even more frustrating is the fact that I'm a soon-to-be college grad in the midst of job searching and now I have to deal with this stressful situation as well. I've worked all throughout college and spent every cent I had saved up to buy this so-called dream car? last January when my old 88' Honda stopped working.

I thought I was buying a reliable car, one that would last me forever but apparently that is not the case. When I contacted BMW Northwest (Fife, WA) they were absolutely no help as they were when I initially approached them last year telling them I was interested in buying a BMW for the first time. They want to charge me $104.00 to bring it in the shop where they'll diagnose the problem which will be a transmission replacement the service guy told me. The total for the new transmission was estimated at $5,200!!!

Peggy of Springfield IL (11/24/07)
I would have never searched the internet for such a problem, nor placed this message but felt compelled after reading very similar stories about our BMW 323i. It's a 2000 with only 56Kmi on it, garage kept, profesionally serviced at the dealership. We never had a single problem nor a symptom until - literally all of the sudden, the car simply would not go into reverse. We too went back to the local dealership only to be told that this is not typical. After r
— richard112360 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 7:09:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Thanks for proving my point foxy
10,000 RX sales
13,000 IS/ES sales (same segment, 2 cars)
Total sales of 32,000
That means 9,000 are the rest. So it's like a 40%, 31%, 29% split.

Still better than BMW's reliance on the 3.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55599
They had 20,000 total sales in Sept and 9000+ were 3 series.
For the year, 215,000 total sales, 106,000 were 3 series.

btw, YOUR link doesn't work. Surprise, surprise.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 10:49:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

you still don't get it.

the 3-series is the core of the BMW brand and it's an AMAZING car.

the RX and ES are the core of the lexus brand and they're just rebadged toyotas that are driven by 60 year olds.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 11:51:02 AM | | Votes: 0

and here you go....

http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2007/01/03-1-sales.html

238,000 of lexus sales are RX, ES and IS (i.e. entry level luxury rebadged toyotas). all the rest (LS460, LS460L, LS600, LX, GX, GS350, GS460, GSh, SC) make up the other 80,000 cars sold in the US.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 11:57:47 AM | | Votes: 0

Go to www.bmw.ca (site is currently down for some reason), they're offering 2%/36 month leases until the end of the year.

Lexus is doing 3.5% over 4 years. Their lease/finance rates are generally disgusting though! 8.2% over 5 years!!! This is on top of their cars generally costing more as well. No wonder FOBs have to settle for BMWs.
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/aboutpurchasing/leasefinancerates/leasefinancerates.jsp?province=ON
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/29/2007 10:57:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

The title need to change to "BMW need to buy stake from MB" to compete with Lexus. BMW need all the help they can to keep up the fast growing Lexus Luxury market.
— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 2:06:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

THIS IS ECONMONY OF SCALE. REASON WHY HONDA FACTORY EFFICIENCY IS GOOD. ONE CHASIS,ENGINE,TRANSMISSION, ETC. FOR PILOT/RIGDELINE/PASSPORT/MDX/ODYSSEY. TOYOTA/LEXUS AND NISSAN/INFINITI DO THE SAME.
— Dr550 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 12:53:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

enthusiastx11;

You are right that for banks, a third party sets the residual. However BMW's financial arm is not a third party, they are part of the company that manufactures the cars. No other bank would set the residual as high as BMW does. How many people do you know leasing a BMW who are not in a stupid lease like 60 months, that have a lease from anyone but BMW? Do you think there might be a reason for that? I know the reason; the other banks have to take their chances at an auction at lease end, BMW does not. As a result BMW sets the residuals higher because they already have it sold at lease end barring the vehicle having been involved in an accident.
— chilipalmer (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 1:29:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

It is only a matter of time before MB and BMW runs themselves dry...simply b/c other rivals such as Audi, Infinity and especially Lexus, is forcing them to spend that much more in R&D just to try to barely stay ahead of the game. Ever since Lexus has stepped into the spotlight back in 1989, the R&D bewtween each of them, BMW and MB has been forced to spend $800 million to $1.8 Billion dollars more on average till this day just to say "we are slightly better". As it cuts into the profits severly on a global scale for both of them, Toyota/Lexus and other rivals are actually making large sum of profits. Lucky for you MB & BMW fanboys, they are barely above waters and I mean barely...but then again the MB and BMW execs don't want you to know...LMAO!!!
— BigShow50 (View Profile)

Posted on 11/30/2007 4:25:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Foxy,
Once again you prove my point.
140K RX = 43%
75K ES = 23%
55K IS = 17%
57K misc = 18% (total is 101%, I rounded)
Total is approx 322K. 50% is 160K which the RX doesn't even approach.
BMW's sales are 50% 3 series and 75% of their sales are passenger cars.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/3/2007 11:33:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

See the new BMW Nov sales forum for my 75% number. 18K of 24K sales were passenger cars.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/3/2007 11:35:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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