Dear Auto Spies,
Oh man, you don't know what you've stirred up. BOSE is a pet peeve of the audiophile community. Audiophiles are people who really care about sound quality, who know a bit about acoustics and psychoacoustics, and are willing to spend many thousands of dollars, in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars on two-channel stereo systems in pursuit of achieving high fidelity reproduction of their audio recordings.
Here's a FAQ on BOSE that's been around for quite a while, and it remains true as ever:
http://www.fiendation.com/300zx/bosefaq.htm
In a nutshell, BOSE blows. You are paying more for their slick marketing and brand image (upheld by aggressive litigation) than for actual sound quality. It's well known among audiophiles that the speaker drivers BOSE uses in their cute little acoustimass speakers cost less than $5. BOSE makes the BOOM-tizzle sounds that are impressive upon first listening, but don't actually sound like the real thing.
Voices in particular lose all the warmth in the midrange (100-3000 Hz).
Instead BOSE over-emphasizes the bass (e.g. the BOOM = 30-80 Hz) and the treble (the tizzle = 5000+ Hz). They use one transmission line subwoofer for the bass and many small satellite speakers that by the laws of physics are only able to produce high frequencies. They don't have a midrange control because they don't have a midrange driver (typically 4-5 inch drivers)! They also aim their speakers every which way creating an artificially reverberent sound stage which sounds big at first but then you realize everything sounds fuzzy and indistinct. Then they blow a lot of marketing smoke up your ass, telling you that the cute little speakers you see are producing all the sound when in fact there's a subwoofer hidden in the corner filling out the bass, and that aiming the speaker at the wall instead of at your ear is like being in a classical concert hall. Meanwhile you can't concentrate on the sound because there's a large plasma screen TV in your face playing a video of the performers.
In reality, the "BOOM-tizzle" "BOSE sound" is taking advantage of a psychoacoustic phenomenon where you can have a non-linear frequency response but the ear/brain system synthesizes what is called the "missing fundamental" - in our case the missing midrange. Adding a certain amount of reverberation does contribute to your perception of depth in what is called the "soundstage" in a two-channel stereo recording. Aiming your speakers at the walls, however, can be too much of a good thing. BOSE 901 speakers literally have more output BACKWARDS into the back wall than forwards towards the listening position! To the untrained ear these shenanigans sound impressive. Over time, one starts to realize that something about BOSE doesn't sound right. But BOSE is supposed to be a "high end audio" brand, right? NOT.
Now, Mark Levinson is a somewhat more respected brand among audiophiles, and the John Curl designed system in the Lexus SC430 and other Lexuses is a *real* audiophile system.
By the way we have a BOSE system in our ML320 and it blows goats. I didn't know back then...
Andrew
p.s. keep up the good work on your newsletter/website. Auto consumers need more straight-talking gurus like you!
After reading your article concerning the quality of BOSE audio systems regularly found in high-end production vehicles, I thought I might share my input. As an engineer working for a custom, home audio loudspeaker design company, I not only am well learned in speaker design but also entertain several request regarding BOSE type designs.
First I must credit the design team at BOSE for some of the engineering feats they’ve achieved. Few brands can muster the sheer size (or lack
thereof) and what we call in the business SAF or Spouse Approval Factor.
However, my applause for the engineering department stops there. The sheer size of the driver itself does not lend to moving and compressing air easily with little excursion; more excursion requiring larger depth and size. To counter this lack of output in the mid to low range frequencies, boomy, and often too highly dampened subwoofers begin to roll on too high, becoming directional and resulting in what is less than a desirable mid-low sound.
The philosophy of design employed by BOSE has been morphing into something more respectable for a bean counter the last 10 years or so and has no end in sight. When put into perspective, this is the true achievement of BOSE, a world class marketing department which has successfully lead the minds of millions of people into the palm of their hands. I can’t speak for car audio because that’s not the area of my expertise but the general public does not see how little cost goes into their expensive BOSE audio systems. The general public can very often find drivers for multi thousand dollar sets of speakers for less than a dollar and I can only assume the same cost per flaunted value ratio is the same…
As much as I hate to admit (being a die hard Mercedes fan), Lexus is taking a step in the right direction by beginning offering true high fidelity audio systems in their automobiles. Companies like Mark Levingston have proven themselves to the audiophile community and have the means and motive to produce exactly what the automotive community expects from their vehicles. I can only hope that before long, I will see my very favorite brands of drivers (no pun intended), included in my very favorite brands of cars.
You guys have an amazing site and I read every week. Keep up the great reporting!!
Jon, Colorado
You have nailed it again! After spending hours fiddling with every conceivable combination of base & treble in my 2003 G35 - it IS the damn mid-range that is missing. Infiniti, shame on you, especially when everything else about the car is so impressive.
How about next week's question... Which Mfg. has the best O.E. sound systems? My vote is Volvo - yes, Volvo. Give them a listen.
M.F.
Windsor, Ontario
p.s. great new site, great NAIAS coverage, keep up the excellent work!
‘Rockers’ ("off our rocker's") does not require an apostrophe. But yeah. The Bose systems may be sounding great within test environments, but I've bested the quality of their sound with many a self-installed system. On a budget no less. Automakers haven't seemed to turn away from the antiquated notion that drivers have neither the skill nor the interest to use a genuinely high end sound set-up. The controls far too often resemble something from Playskool, or are made so cumbersome to use that the thinking must be a dismissive, "Oh, drivers don't really know anything about audio anyway." (But we want rubbish like Active Steering and i-Drive? Yeah, right. Mmm hmm.)
Thanks, Ed
I was invited to view the new quattroporte and was bemused when a bose "representative" approached me and asked if she could demonstrate the bose system installed in the car. Not wanting to be rude i accepted and be fore she began asked her a few questions about the system that a mid level mickey shore installer could have answered semi-intelligently.
Surprisingly she had very little knowledge of acoustics but a plethora o knowledge about the bose sales pitch. I listened in disgust for the next few minutes as she went through her routine before I thanked her.
I now understand why upon delivery of my brothers DTS back in 2000 he had completely removed every hint that there was a factory installed stereo months before i even saw another DTS on the road.
In short i will repeat what i have been saying about bose for the last
15 years leave it at abc wear house with the rest of the junk
E
Ther were so many complaints about the Bose systems on the Porsche Boxster message boards that they finally blocked all postings that included the word "Bose". The posters started always calling them "b***" radios.
I agree with them the b*** in my Cayenne does not belong in a car of this caliber. I have already added an XM radio (another important option not offered by Porsche) and will redo the whole stereo when I return from my road trip to Arizona.
Mike A.
Well, I have a 2000 Audi A6 2.7T with a Bose system and there IS a mid-range control on it! The system sounds pretty clean to me, though for some programming, there is an over-emphasis of bass even when the settings are flat. Attenuating the bass, though, works well for very good audio on all sources: FM, XM, and my iPod.
I did drive an ‘04 Acura TL with DVD Audio and, though my listening experience was limited, it sounded very, very good and clean to me. I wish I could A-B compare it with my Audi and with other high end systems (e.g., Mark Levinson on Lexus).
Ben G.
Colorado Springs, CO
I think u guys r off on this--the radio in my xlr by bose with the xm option is outstanding (best i have had yet from the factory) and has a mid range control.
Keep up the good work!
Lawrence B.
They are the most overrated ever. The theory at Bose is "active-equalization", with an amp at each speaker, for your car's interior acoustics. The reality is that it is "active compensation" for their shoddy speakers. They use the poorest quality paper and magnet materials I have ever seen (remember Kraco??) in their speakers, and then amplify and actively EQ each speaker to try and compensate. Then they leave out "exotic" controls like mid-range adjustment, and even fader and/or balance controls in some cases!
The result? A poor quality speaker is a poor quality speaker, and there's no compensating for it. They sound awful; boomy and tinny at the same time, with no real solid bass, poor definition, and audible distortion at higher volume levels (not that they get very loud). I've had these "systems" in Audi, Benz, etc. and they all can not hold a candle to what you can put in yourself for half the price of the factory Bose option.
To top it off they use 1 ohm speakers, usually with built-in amps. So if you want to re-do their shoddy work, you have to rip everything out as no aftermarket speakers work with their crappy amps, and no amps will drive their crappy 1 ohm speakers.
Better sound through research? Yeah, and I'm a nuclear physicist.
Regards,
Bruce Mendel
Yeah you are right that the Bose system sucks big time.
I still have no idea why people think they are good. Bass is extremely weak, muddy with no punch. Midrange is overboosted. Highs are harsh and tingy. There in not one good thing about a bose system. Another problem with them is that if you want to change it, it's an all or nothing deal.
You have to replace all of the system.
Bose is also known as.
Better sound through marketing
No highs, no lows must be bose.
Bass optional sound extra.
Davin
I have 2 Mercedes: 2003 CLK 500 and a 2003 ML 500. The CLK system is at best horrible whether its a CD, Tape or radio.
The ML 500 is just the opposite........fabulous!
Also have a 1999 A4 with Bose.........great system. For some reason with MB, the more expensive the car, the crappy system is installed.
Problem with installing after market system once you have Bose seems to be the whole system needs to be replaced!
GM does it right with the Tahoe / Yukon: you get XM radio with the Bose system!
Thomas C.
Every bose audio system is overrated! Home and automotive sytems have absolutely no functional midrange and the overall sound quality is very "tin-y"
Bill F.
It is impossible to me, that after walking in to my Nissan dealer in early 2002 to purchase my Maxima SE, that after plunking down 31,000 cash, I would be left with a less than satisfactory stereo system. How on Earth does Bose get away with this?? 7 speakers, 225 watts and it is just a thump machine! I am 27, I listen to a wide variety of music, and yet the music that sounds the best is the high intensity bass driven sounds.
A mid-range control?? I have asked myself that for more than two years. Why, in a stereo with such a name for itself, are consumer end details so unattainable? Why can’t I do anything I want to it? Change the pitch, the bass, the treble and the MID RANGE?? I think most would agree that most music is present in the mid-range? Most speaking? Most of life.
I have even gone so far as to almost pay for a complete audio system swap out, but BOSE and their proprietary bullshit wiring, and the 17,000 DIN audio slot in the dash…..makes it costly, and ridiculous.
As long as I live, I will never buy another Bose stereo product. And certainly not a BOSE in a car.
Jeff M.
I think you guys are nuts! The best ever…no way. But amongst the best…absolutely. I drive a piece of junk 745Li with the worthless HK Logic7 system. My wife has the Audi Allroad with the Bose and it blows the HK away. Maybe my BMW just makes everything suck but I have certainly enjoyed the Bose system ever since the corvette of the early 80’s.
By the way, the best system I have heard so far is the optional Levinson system in the Lexus GS430. That kicks ass…
-Jeff H.
Listen to the stock Bose system in a Porsche Cayenne S or Turbo. It is exceptional.
Though listening to the Bose system in the Infiniti FX45, I'd have to agree with your assessment.
David L.
I drive an MY03 M-B C32 that I almost did not buy because of the Bose which I thought was awful and I'm no audiophile. But I decided I liked everything else and am happy as a clam with the car. All except for the Bose which is even worse than I thought it would be--definitely low cost, low quality, low fi. The wife's Subaru Outback MacIntosh blows it away. And the Lexus Mark Levinson is awesome, but don't overlook Logic 7 in the H-K units. I am not totally anti-Bose because I love their noise reducing type II headsets for air travel. That said, they have been pulling the wool over the auto industry eyes for a long time.
Blame auto company executives who see low OEM prices as a way to save a buck. Car stereos are overpriced and underperforming ripoffs for the most part. Too bad because a car is a great place to listen to stereo or multi-channel. I have decided I will never, under any circumstances, buy a car with a Bose stereo. If one is given to me I will sell it.
Bruce C.
Champaign, IL
Couldn't agree more. Although the BOSE systems for both cars and for the home have a good following in America, this is largely the result of marketing. In reality the systems are mediocre at best. They are never rated well in audiophile magazines.
SKA
I bought a new Audi A4 3.0 Quattro in November, 2003. It has the Bose Sound System with XM Satellite. I like the controls and features, but the sound is definitely muddy. Especially the bass, which is loud but not clear. The midrange is also problematic: the vocals seem to lack presence. Overall, the playback is skewed toward the treble end. There is no way to compensate. Resistance is futile...
If I had to do it over again, I'd take a low-end factory stereo with XM and upgrade it myself. The problem with that is that no one knows if the problem with Bose resides in the components or in the speakers.
Bose is totally overrated. They have fair-to-middlin' sound at best, high prices, and all their home audio components use proprietary connections, which means you can't test their equipment on any other speakers, etc.
My opinion: If you can stay away from Bose, do so.
Robert W.
Milwaukee
Tonality usually is nice but clarity and detail is poor.
Glenn Q.
Audio Engineer
If Bose is so great, why are they are sold at outlet malls and Best Buy?
As an audiophile, they make my skin crawl. Put it this way: Aston Martin have LINN, Lexus at least offers Mark Levinson, and even Subbies have McIntosh. Whatever happened to Blaupunkt?
A Bose-equipped car is enough to make me think of not buying it, definitely of notpaying for the option.
Keep up the good work, always a pleasure ...
Cheers,
KP
I've been an audiofile for many years, and Bose home systems have always been known by anyone with a musical ear, as the most over priced and over rated speakers in the marketplace. They have always tried to cover the whole frequency range with one (1) driver per enclosure, compared with other speakers in the same price range using three (3) or more for the high, mid, & low range. Talk about cutting corners on cost and not passing it on to the consumer. I drive an Acura MDX with the premium??? Bose sound system. Very HO! HUM!
I think their home systems carry over to upscale cars, you guys hit the nail on the head.
If anyone wants to listen to the best factory units, give the Mark Levenson systems in Lexus a test, NO CONTEST!
Dennis Crosby
First off, I want to say that your site is the best automotive site on the web- bar none! In fact, I no longer have to make the long 20 mile trip into Burbank to an auto book and magazine specialist shop to catch up on the latest news- it's all there right on your site.
As for Bose, I just bought a 2004 Audi S4 w/ the BOSE system and it is very good. It has a mid-range adjust with sound that is both clear and powerful. No complaints here. For comparison however, I also have a 2003 Range Rover HSE w/the Harmon Kardon Logic 7 system with 15 speakers and it is absolutely amazing. I would rate it a "10" for stock systems and the BOSE in my Audi would get a very respectable "8.5".
So is BOSE the ultimate in car audio? No, the Harmon Kardon Logic 7 beats it in every car I've listened to it in, E500's, BMW 545i's, Range Rovers etc.
But the BOSE system, at least in my new S4 is very, very good and I can think of a lot of other car audio systems which are vastly inferior to it. Perhaps BOSE in other cars just isn't on the same level of quality as it is on the
New Audi S4. I don't know, but I would be curious to see if you guys have listened to it in Audi's latest "S" model and what you think..............................
Phil Fischer
I agree with your take on Bose car audio systems, and I would add that their home theater systems are highly over-rated as well. They seem to make a good first impression, but once you listen for an extended period of time they sound flat. Another reminder that good marketing can sometimes make up for poor quality.
MG
I have NEVER heard a Bose sound system in a car that sounded remotely decent. In fact, one of the worst car audio systems I have ever had was a Bose system in a Nissan 300ZX twin-turbo. I believe that people think the Bose systems are good simply because they have heard the name so often. Bose should spend less money on advertising and more money on product development. They should at least listen to a Nakamichi or Mark Levinson system to see what a better than average system sounds like.
Collin P.
Dallas, TX
I love you guys, but on this one, you're way off. On both a 2001 BMW I bought (and quickly dumped)and our new Mercedes, the biggest disappointment has been the "optional," overpriced and underpowered Harmon Kardon Stereo. If that's the upgraded system, It's sad to imagine what kind of crappy stereo the people driving the standard version are stuck with. The mid to upper range is tinny, and there's a serious lack of Base. No wonder these punks have to drive around with a pair of carpeted dog houses in their trunks! Bose never disappointed with ultimate clarity and more bass than you ever needed. Period.
Marc
You hit the nail right on the head. Bose has the best marketing, and decent sound, but can't rival that of other manufacturers that create TRUE high performance stereo's. The Bose system in my friends S and SL is actually pretty good (but artificial sounding), but the Bose system in all other MB's was and is a complete joke (although the HK in my E is not that much better, though). It was always funny how the STOCK stereo in my Lexus GS sounded awesome, easily trumping the so-called premium sound of other cars. And nevermind the Nak and later the Mark Levinson options.
It is a well known fact. Ask any audiophile about Bose, and they will will turn their heads in shame, or worse if they have a bad attitude. Ask most anyone else, and they will tell you that Bose is the greatest souding system ever.
TH
I agree. I never thought to much of BOSE. Their equipment is way over priced and over rated. Look at the WAVE RADIO as a example of the power of marketing.
After 4 Mercedes ML's all with BOSE audio, I switched to a BMW X5 with the HARMON KARDON option. All I can say is WOW! The same goes for my Mini Cooper S with Harmon Kardon audio. My SL55 has the average BOSE in it. Jaguar has an ALPINE option and it is better than BOSE.
Just my educated listening from hours spent behind the wheel.
While we are on this subject Bentley does not even have plans for Satelitte Radio. The same for VW. Seems they buy their Command from VDO and they can not think about the fact that there are customers who would like this built in rather than a FM modulated XM or Sirius box stuck on the dash. Makes no sense.
George K.
Tulsa
I have a new Mercedes ML 350 with Bose. The volume reduces when the car slows and gets louder as the speed increases. This is real irritating and what's worse, no setting exists to turn this feature off!!!!!!!
Ashley R.
I bought a CLK 430 Convertible for the wife in 01, BOSE system. Awful. Tinny. Oh by the way the car has not been that great either.
A.
I have an 8 speaker Bose system (amp/speakers) factory fitted in my 2001 Audi A6.
The sound is great, certainly the best auto sound I have owned without adding any bells and whistles. Mostly I use it with all adjustable settings at 0 (Bass/Treble/Balance/Fade) and the need to adjust is more an indictment of the recording than the playback kit. Never felt the need for any mid range control. I hear notes and sounds I don't get on my home setup (Rotel Amp/Marantz Disc deck and Bose Acoustimass5 Speakers). Eyes closed I cannot place the speakers, just hear great sharp 360 degree sound. My music tastes - from OMD thru MJQ to LSO* and everything in between.
Don't confuse simple with inferior, but hey, beauty is in the ear of the be-listener .......
Keep up the good work!!!!
Dave M.
Every home audio expert knows Bose is the most over rated over priced over hyped system available. They actually use deceptive sales techniques in their stores selling products. When demonstrating their speakers they hide very carefully all the electronics powering the sound. What you think is beautiful sound coming from a very simple sustem is actually played on equipment worth easily a hundred thousand dollars. Ask to look behind the curtain and you will be told no. They don't want you to see the real source of the sound. Bose is the lowest quality system you can buy and the company employs deceptive sales techniques to merchandise their product..
Best regards-Henry
I disagree. Our family (Leos) has had 4 Mercedes-Benz in the past years and love our bose sound systems? Is it because of the subwoofers?
Ivan
Well I agree that the Bose system sucks in any MB, the HK systems in BMW's are pretty good but the best bitchin' stereo from a major company is the 450 watt BOSE system in the Cadillac STS, it is by far the best car stereo I have every heard.. Besides the "dynamic" adjustments it has an awesome frequency range, can hit the highs, bang the booms and make AC/DC rock and be understandable at its highest level.... Sorry guys but BOSE my suck everywhere else but in the STS it kicks ass.
-Austin
The best marketing campaign since WMD. Not only the most overrated car audio; the most overrated and overpriced audio, period. See if you can even find Bose MENTIONED in the audiophile literature (unless, of course, they are a sponsor).
Ray
Yes, Bose is highly overrated! I have the Bose in my '01 STS and '03 Tahoe and I'm not that impressed with either of them.
Mike
Sorry, but BOSE makes the most sonically accurate car stereos in the world. Each system is tuned to the vehicle and installed to a relevant price point. Some people might prefer pumping bass or searing mid-range, but if you want to hear the music as it was recorded, BOSE is the business.
RF
Yes, Bose has pulled the wool over every consumer's eyes for the past 10 years. Whether it is car or home audio BOSE is nothing but a sterling example of marketing the sizzle without any steak. Please make your results heard among the OEM's they need to realize that the name isn't worth the crappy sound!!!
Stringer
I agree with your comments re: Bose sound systems. I've been unimpressed with every Bose vehicle audio system I've ever heard. They sound ok for a standard sound system, but the sound quality is not what I would expect from a "premium" sound system. The best factory sound system I've heard is the premium sound offered on the 2004 Volvo XC90. It uses Dolby pro-Logic II Surround Sound, and is quite impressive in its midrange.
Soboy
Is it just us or are the BOSE systems installed from the factory in most high end cars (Mercedes, Infiniti etc), THE most overrated systems EVER!
1) YES. My Infiniti G35 Sport Coupe has the Best of the Worst "Blows" so far, that's not saying a lot. Give me a grand and I'll "blow" it away with aftermarket equipment. It does have good punch, low, high, but for 8-speakers and a Sub you'd think it might have it all?
No, the only decent product I've ever had from BOSE are home speakers - 301/501/901 series, and hey, they have sub, mid, and high range!!! What a concept!
Every time we listen to one of these systems the sound is muddy and one-dimensional.
2) C'mon, maybe 2-D - High and Low, just NO midrange
Also, is it so hard to add a mid-range adjustment control?
3) What would you use if for? To adjust the midrange of the climate control?
Why don’t they ever have one?
4) The speakers and head unit are completely designed for lows, highs, and intensity (thus the BIG watts "225-watt Premium Sound System") That's what audio-NO-philes react to on the showroom floor...
Does it drive you crazy to be driving in a car you spend over 100 GRAND on and feel the stereo should be re-installed on a Scion?
5) C'mon, the Scion's not THAT bad :)
We’d like to hear from you if you think we’re off our rocker’s and need a good hearing exam or if BOSE has pulled the wool over every car buyer’s eyes over the past ten years.
Steve
When it comes to name brand stereos in cars, be sure to ask which speakers are made by the company that the manufacturer is touting. In many cases it might only be the sub-woofer or the front door speakers. The balance of them are from the other more affordable name, Panasonic, Alpine and so on. That said some cars do have the complete system made by the high-end brand. But considering MB's years of cost-down production methods don’t be too surprised if you find out that only some of the speakers are Bose.
Josh
from italy
first of all many thanks for all the hot news you give to me about cars (specially porsche)
second i absolutely agree whit you about bose sound.
my father and me have two porsches 996 4 and 968 cabrio and we opted for the bose system aftermarket but both of us aren't really satisfied about it
in any conditions we have too much bass sound and the treble aren't never too clean or clear to let you appreciate far voices (for ex when you'are listening for oscar peterson while sing softly (great jazz piano player).
i mean the bose system is good if u listen dance music or disco or commercial on the other hand if u like classic or jazz u have too chose something different.
actually i' m looking around for AR acoustic research that in my house sounds wonderfully
gilberto
In a word.... hohum.
Even disregarding my audiophile background, the system in my FX45 begs for gutting -- flabby bass, undefined mids and high end -- doesn't anybody listen to these things before selecting them?
Charles
I'm not an expert audiofile nut but their radio in the GMC Denali I just purchased seams fine!
Regards, DAS
My wife's Maxima has a Bose system and I've been very pleased with it. It's well-balanced and distortion-free at any volume.
Mark
Bose--have had them on Sts & Dts, both units were ok, but not the sound that I am after in a good stereo for the car!! New Acura tl wins on the sound front with the DVD audio unit--not even close!
David P.
The Bose system in my Audi A6 is great, but I am not impressed with the Bose system in the new Qwest...
David
Bose is terrible. Had it in an STS. It was pathetic. The new Jag xjr has an alpine - its not bad. My old lexus has a Nakamichi. The best I have ever heard in a car. The Lexus Mark Levinson is not bad but still prefer Nakamichi.
Van
I have the Bose stereo in my 94 Audi S4 and my biggest gripe is that you can't upgrade any part of the system without changing out the whole thing. Now they don't make the CD changer anymore and the head units are hard to find new so what do I do. I still love the car, spend $$$$ on a whole new setup? I guess.
Eli
When Bose first started to putting an "integrated" audio system into cars, it was revolutionary when comared to what the car makers were coming up with on their own. The car audio aftermarket was still in its diapers.
Now we have a healthy car audio aftermarket along with some competitors supplying the auto manufacturers. It seems that Bose has not kept up. They have failed to deliver more (more control, more bass, more features) when some consumers are absolutely willing to spend more.
Now the famous "integrated" system has become a "dead end" system. Owners wishing to "upgrade" must rip out the proprietary network of amps, wire, and speakers, and start from scratch with a whole new system. There are no upgrade paths, as the Bose is not compatible with any aftermarket standard
(4 ohm) system. Sound is very subjective, and a Bose system is very constraining.
These are my opinions, and I can go on like this for a while, but I'll step off the soapbox for now.
Regards, Serge
Bose Verdict >> Page 2