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Tags: Toyota, Honda, Diesel, Hybrid

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The Japanese have led the pack with fuel economy. So why are the so against diesels?
As I was in the groove of my regular morning routine (Starbucks run, newspaper, etc.)I was looking around the parking lots checking out all the new vehicles.

One of the benefits of living in Southern California (the list would be too long to list) is seeing so many gorgeous cars everywhere you go.

It’s not uncommon to see not one, but two or three Ferrari’s and the occasional Phantom sprinkled in at your local supermarket parking lot.

The other thing you see in the parking lot on a Saturday morning are the families getting ready to enjoy the weekend and how their vehicles are really used day to day.

And I’m seeing lots of families downsizing to vehicles like the new Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4.

The new vehicles get great gas mileage and they are just the right size for a lot of families.

Just another example of the Japanese having the foresight to be ahead of the trend curve when it comes to economy.

But as I looked at these rides I wondered to myself wouldn’t these SUV’s be even better with low-emission diesel engines?

The Japanese are masters of small cars with fuel efficient engines.

So why aren’t they stoked on diesels and why aren’t they fast tracking more into the pipeline?

How about combing their mastery of hybrids with diesel technology?

We’d like to hear your opinions.

Are they passing up a huge potential market or are they smarter than all the other companies?


The Japanese have led the pack with fuel economy. So why are the so against diesels?



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STJ88STJ88 - 8/4/2007 1:38:13 PM
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rg12345rg12345 - 8/4/2007 2:12:06 PM
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That's why VW engines are getting the same MPG or better than hybrids, but on diesel, and since LONG time ago?? You must be crazy ..


david989david989 - 8/4/2007 2:13:37 PM
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Diesels are slow, dirty and they don't rev high. Gasoline engines are far superior and should be used for trucks and SUVs because they pollute less also. Hybrids are the best option for fuel conscious buyers.


JeepsterSJeepsterS - 8/4/2007 5:33:35 PM
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Not sure how many decades ago you last drove a diesel but they have come a LONG way...as the new M-B diesels prove.


Agent63Agent63 - 8/4/2007 7:58:58 PMView My AgentSpace
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Diesels 'suck ass' because you know nothing about it. If Lexus marketed Diesel from the get-go you would probably be in love with it thinking it's cool. Don't forget diesel technology runs in a lot of truck models and guess what they are used for? Towing power.

As for diesel being the inferior one then how come diesel is so popular in Europe where the passion for cars all began?

If you say diesel sucks you are saying Europe sucks and believe me you will get a lot of heat.



EnnNorakEnnNorak - 8/4/2007 11:47:19 PM
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STJ88, stop projecting yourself! Obviously the corporate culture in some elements of the Japanese auto industry does not encourage thinking outside the box. Toyota is in for a rude awakening when diesels capture the vast bulk of the non-gas-powered car market in North America.


rg12345rg12345 - 8/4/2007 1:40:01 PM
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I guess they can't compete with the europeans in this field yet.

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EnnNorakEnnNorak - 8/4/2007 11:50:00 PM
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GM has some excellent diesel designs in the pipeline and I look forward to the day when we can fuel our cars with our surplus diesel fuel instead of sending it to Europe.


SixxFiveSixxFive - 8/4/2007 2:07:43 PM
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This is an interesting question. I lived in Tokyo for three years and with gas prices similar to those in Western Europe, a majority of the cars were diesels.

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freeagentfreeagent - 8/4/2007 2:12:59 PM
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Because european tax policies favor diesels, the euro manufactures have the best diesel technology by far.

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david989david989 - 8/4/2007 2:15:54 PM
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No they don't. Ever heard of the IS220d? It totally kills the German diesels in fuel economy, refinement and reliability. The Honda 2.2 diesel is in second place.


enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 8/4/2007 2:21:43 PM
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they're working on developing diesels.
but the japanese just haven't made good diesels yet.


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david989david989 - 8/4/2007 2:24:23 PM
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Read my above post. The IS220d is better than any German. It even says so in various Toyota and Lexus magazines I subscribe to.


Htay7500Htay7500 - 8/4/2007 2:38:18 PM
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but you just said diesels arent good. what does tht suppose to mean?


david989david989 - 8/4/2007 4:03:14 PM
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Only Toyota and Lexus know how to make good diesels. They have years of experience making them.


Htay7500Htay7500 - 8/4/2007 4:12:26 PM
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the germans originated the diesel, I don't want one, nor do I want a hybrid but theyve been doing it LONGER than americans or japanese. this is coming from a japanese car fan.


STJ88STJ88 - 8/4/2007 2:38:02 PM
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@SixxFive

In Japan there is only one diesel stil in production the landcruiser prado.


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Htay7500Htay7500 - 8/4/2007 3:03:32 PM
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hino, toyotas commercial division, makes diesels, so does mitsu fuso and isuzu. also the LC 100 has a diesel. there maybe some but I don't remember.


HeyhuubHeyhuub - 8/4/2007 3:00:03 PM
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Every japanese manufacturer except Subaru profides diesel engines.

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STJ88STJ88 - 8/4/2007 3:37:33 PM
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@Heyhuub

Thats in europe but not in Japan.


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gsh23gsh23 - 8/4/2007 3:51:52 PM
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because diesels are soo not sexy

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EnnNorakEnnNorak - 8/4/2007 11:57:41 PM
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Obviously you have never flored the pedal on a powerul diesel vehicle. The acceleration is fantastic due to the high torque available. It is only in recent years that earlier diesel problems have been overcome with high pressure common rail injection, newer methods for dealing with particlulates and other technological advances. Start doing your homework now because soon diesels will be the most practical and desirable vehicles around.


Bmw8terBmw8ter - 8/5/2007 1:16:42 PM
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uhh....didn't the audi r10 already do that, SPORT?


S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 8/5/2007 11:58:43 PMView My AgentSpace
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That was the point of his post, 8ter... I'm guessing you can't detect sarcasm/irony/etc?


henbmwhenbmw - 8/10/2007 4:35:12 PM
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its kinda tough on the internet...


enp83enp83 - 8/4/2007 4:05:36 PM
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maybe because california won't let even the VW diesels from a year or two ago be sold new in their state...

As for a diesel hybrid, sure it'd get awesome mpg but they're scared because now instead of an approx $2,000 premium for a gas hybrid you'd have to add another approx $1,000 premium ON TOP of that for it to be diesel as well...and they think too many people are already bitching about the "premiums".

Gimme a true diesel-electric, a VERY small diesel engine used solely to produce electricity for the electrically driven car.


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JeepsterSJeepsterS - 8/4/2007 5:36:48 PM
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I have been saying that diesel-hybrid is the best solution for years! Combine hybrid fuel efficiency with diesel mileage and I don't think too many people will be complaining. If anything else it would probably be a hit in Europe


SupraNeverBackSupraNeverBack - 8/4/2007 4:56:26 PM
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MPG is going to be obsolete term soon, substituted by MPkWh.

Toyota does have excellent diesel engines. It is not Toyota against diesels, mainly because it has much better leading technique called hybrid, and what's more, plug-in hybrid.

So the question should be asked like like this: why are European (German) so behind hybrids?





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ICONICON - 8/4/2007 5:51:38 PM
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David989..keep drinking that KoolAid bro...ignorant a**

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SubarinaSpecBSubarinaSpecB - 8/4/2007 6:25:30 PM
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Honda has that sweet new method of running the engine lean and rich in order to lower particulates, sounds cooler than any uric acid refills Mercedes has come up with. I would say that the the Japanese companies have more up their sleeves then we give know

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JeepsterSJeepsterS - 8/4/2007 6:44:07 PM
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True, but the Europeans still have more experience, expertise, and capacity. I would go with them. Point case: GM recently invested in VM Motori (of Italy) even though it has had a long relationship producing diesels with Isuzu


SubarinaSpecBSubarinaSpecB - 8/5/2007 11:52:17 PM
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...but gm's diesels sucked in the beginning (basically straight up converted gas engines). I don't think that the pacific rim is dumb enough to sit on their laurels, it just aint their style. They will catch up and be innovating quite quickly if not faster than the European s once and if diesels catch on in America and emerging markets.


mikeydred20mikeydred20 - 8/4/2007 7:17:24 PM
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Honda will introduce diesel to the US next year and the world will take notice.

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Htay7500Htay7500 - 8/5/2007 11:58:52 AM
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and this was in?


damikcodamikco - 8/5/2007 12:28:31 PMView My AgentSpace
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rav4 a family car? dont make me laugh

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 8/5/2007 11:57:05 PMView My AgentSpace
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What else could it possibly be? An off-roader? A luxury liner? I don't think so.


Htay7500Htay7500 - 8/6/2007 7:18:30 AM
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you might wanna give them credit for making the compact SUV. tht brought the crv, vue, escape and etc.


1evlaudi1evlaudi - 8/5/2007 2:13:24 PMView My AgentSpace
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I am truly amazed by the ignorance of some of the people writting comments here. I am still fairly new to this site and those blog things and I do not post many comments.
Even though Audi was the first european brand to produce and market TDI technology, they were also the first to introduce the hybrid concept at Geneva in 1989, the DUO, other european manufacturers have embrassed diesel and TDI, mainly because the diesel cost a lot less at the pump. Thanks in part to all the truckers that will go on strike and paralize the european union at the first sight of increase in the diesel at the pump. as far as hybrids, the VAG group has many engines combination, from gas/electric to diesel/electric, but they are also working on warm storage hydrogene, a new gas engine that will not use the spark but for start and high load, alomst like a diesel engine, they already have twin charging engines that are extremely efficient and clean.
I don't know aht are the japanese working on but it seems to me that since the european manufacturers have bben around for much longer that their japanese counterparts, major innovations seem to come from europe.


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SL55SL55 - 8/5/2007 7:37:34 PM
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put it this way, Germans, Europeans more on diesel tech. and hydrogen. The Japs is more on hybrid. If both of them are going on the same direction, then there won't be thrill for us consumer. At the end, there will be one who is gonna stand.

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S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 8/5/2007 11:56:24 PMView My AgentSpace
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Heh, I must comment on the article...

"One of the benefits of living in Southern California (the list would be too long to list)..."

So would the drawbacks.


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SpectatorSpectator - 8/6/2007 1:02:22 PM
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Ahh...finally a conversation pertaining to how good diesel is...instead of the propaganda we are constantly being fed about gas hybrids and Corn based E85.

The diesel market is small in Japan for one reason and one reason alone...the US market. The Japanese auto industry, since it's inception post WWII, has based its products on the US market. Since the American market has been averse to diesel for most of it's cars and light trucks (since the Ford Model T)...the Japanese responded in kind, with gas powered vehicles.

Another reason you don't see many cars with diesels is cost. A diesel engine costs about twice as much to produce as a gas powered engine. This in turn raises the cost of the total vehicle by a couple thousand dollars usually. Though I won't get into how diesels hold their resale value better.

The concept of performance not being good with a diesel...well like the individuals above said...apparently someone forgot to inform Audi about that while they were winning races.

Also for those who have never driven the new clean diesels...try it before you knock it. I'm old (don't tell my wife I said that or I'll never live it down) so I remember the old MB diesels and understand that the stigma of those black smoke spewing machines is carried into today. However this is a concept that needs to be changed...and probably could only be changed by Audi/VW producing a TDI that beats any gas powered vehicle (0-60 and the 1350) in its market. I say Audi/VW before anyone else just because the badge TDI holds power in the diesel car market...though MB could take it with the new BlueTec.

Finally if you really want to push some buttons and talk about cheap(fuel wise), clean and powerfull at the same time (and include hybrid technology) talk about bio-diesel hybrids.


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1970toyotamarc1970toyotamarc - 8/6/2007 4:32:42 PM
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Why should the Japanese put effort into diesels? Electric power is the future, and hybrids are a step toward that future. Why invest in a technology whose fuel source will be depleted in a couple decades?

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SpectatorSpectator - 8/7/2007 10:13:36 AM
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So I assume you mean electric as in coal. Because there is this other really neat thing coal does under the Fischer-Tropsch technique...it becomes low-sulfur oil. And last time I checked we had coal reserves for at least 200 years even if we didn't do anymore exploration or open new mines.

Switchgrass Ethanol and Bio-diesel are renewable resources that don't require using fossil fuels... and are almost entirly 'green' if you wanted to talk about real future power. Electric vehciles you can plug in are only usefull around large urban areas. If you are trucking goods across country you can't stop every 3 hours and wait to recharge... time is money, especially in shipping.

Besides there is another aspect to why electric won't take over the world (though I do see it being the premiere resouce in cities). Noone thinks about this however the aviation and powered water craft (including cargo shipping)communities are tied into the automotive community and I don't see electric engines being produced for them anytime soon.



NeverfollowNeverfollow - 8/7/2007 4:34:59 PM
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Until recently, there hasn't been a market for it in the US. Since the US is the only major market for Asian brands, there has been no reason to develop them. Now that the sulfer has been refined out of the US diesel fuel supply, there is a growing trend to build cars using all the new clean diesel technology. Both Honda and Toyota are indeed fast tracking diesel powered vehicles to the US. They face the same hurdles as the European brands however. You need to pass EPA and CARB regulations with each and every vehicle that has a new engine. The R&D is well under way. Some are even buying the technology to save time. Look for ultra clean diesels to arrive very shortly after the European brands launch.

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SpectatorSpectator - 8/7/2007 5:18:41 PM
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Someone else who does their homework.

Don't you find it funny that EPA and CARB emission standards are followed yet CAFE fuel consumption standards are ignored.

Just as a minor correction, GM already has the new clean diesel engines...however they are currently only available for trucks not like MB's BlueTec which is where I think you were alluding to when you were talking about clean diesel CAR's...which the US does not have yet (though modern TDI's are pretty good).



NeverfollowNeverfollow - 8/8/2007 4:20:43 PM
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Domestic trucks are using the new fuel and some of the same emissions equipment, but aren't required to even come close to the standards set for cars in the eyes of the EPA and CARB. I also don't think the GM diesel is available yet. I couldn't find one at all the last time I checked GM Buy Power.com.


SteveSteve - 8/9/2007 4:39:13 PM
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What evidence do you have that the Japanese auto makers are "against" diesels? Because they don't sell and/many here? If so, a very simple answer, without the need for conspiracies or being "against" diesels, is that diesel autos represent a relatively small market, and the Asian makers are mass-market producers.

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gregsfcgregsfc - 8/9/2007 6:04:10 PM
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Nissan will introduce clean diesel car models in Japan, 2008. In the U.S.--2010.

The delay for the U.S. is for developing SCR systems to reduce NOx down to tier 2, bin 5, which is six times more stringent than Euro 5 and even more stringent than Japan's regs. on NOx. Japan has tougher rules overall, but with regards to NOx, U.S. regulators are making it very difficult to bring superior diesels here.

And I suppose since electric cars are the future, we should quit buying gas cars today. The difference between diesels and gassers is compression ignition versus spark ignition. Utilizing the most fuel-saving technologies for compression-ignition is no more of a step backwards than utilizing the most fuel-efficient gas-powered technologies. Even if we're going to develop hybrids, ICEs still need to become more effient in order to reduce the amount of fuel used for transportation, so introducing clean diesels is in no way keeping us from moving forward.


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gregsfcgregsfc - 8/9/2007 6:06:34 PM
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Toyota is against diesels and that's because they are behind in that technology. Nissan is already there, and Honda is moving quickly towards very efficient, very clean diesel autos. The U.S. will have a diesel Accord in 2010 that will meet tier 2, bin 5, and will get about 60 mpg on the hwy. Honda is also working on a V-6 for the Ridgeline and Odyssey.

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gregsfcgregsfc - 8/9/2007 6:12:20 PM
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The U.K.'s Department of Transportation just completed a rating of the greenest light-duty vehicles for sale there. Ten of the fourteen were diesel powered, inlcuding the most green of all, the VW Polo TDI (with only 99 grams per mile of CO2 versus the Toyota Prius @ 104 grams per mile, CO2).

Ironically, none of those ten diesels would be permitted in the U.S., because our EPA says they are too polluting. Does anyone really believe our British friends are so dumb that what they perceive as the most green cars, are actually the most polluting? Can anyone say...Detroit getting it's way in the U.S., and this is keeping us from saving fuel and greenhouse gas emissions?


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kurtismackurtismac - 8/10/2007 1:59:06 AM
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Don't know what all the hoop-la is about but Japanese car markers (except subaru) do have diesels in europe. Every vehicle in the toyota line up has a diesel variant (except the prius), even the Rav 4. Thats the only way they can survive. Nissan, honda, suzuki (they have a diesel vitara), the korean car makers everyone. So you all are mistaken if you think they are adverse to diesel. As some folks here have quite rightly pointed out, if the US was a big diesel market, they would be crap loads of Japanese vehicles. They just respond to markets....They may not be superior to the european diesels, but they are good diesels nonetheless. Most are small engines, the largest being the aging 4.2 TD found in the Landcruiser but too small for the likes of the US, which is why most probably are trying to develop larger engines for the US market. I drive a Landrover discovery 3 (LR3) and i am presently getting ridiculous milage out of it, recently got 850 km out of an 80L tank. Thats nearly 30 mpg (combined cycle) or about 25/26 mpg US gallon. I cannot understand why they aren't used more in SUVs, the pulling power is unbelievable with a 6 speed manual, regardless of the gear on the motorway/highway its just a matter of opening the throttle and it will over take with ease (compared to the 3.7 grand cherokee i drove when i was in the US..17 mpg combined and it was slow as hell)...no loud noises from the engine and recently did 110 mph...with ease..was just checking how fast it could go...pains me to see SUVs with gas engines, because none will be as efficient as a diesel and none of them (unless there are some massive engines) will have the pulling power either...but check out the toyota GB site...

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gregsfcgregsfc - 8/10/2007 7:38:44 PM
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Yes Toyota has diesels in Europe just like all other automakers that compete there. Diesels are also achieving red-hot demand now in places like Korea and India and I'm sure Toyota is in on that too, but Toyota diesels are far inferior to most of their competitors in markets where clean burn and high performance really matter, and they will have to really learn alot to make diesels that will meet Euro 6 and tier 2, bin 5 regs.

It is rumored that Toyota will have Isuzu build diesels for the U.S. (if the market makes it necessary) and Japan, and that is because Toyota can't build them that are clean enough to pass emissions rules.

Why do you think Toyota is so high on hybrids and so down on diesels for the U.S.? It's because they are at a competitive disadvantage with respect to diesels, but are at a competitive advantage with respect to hybrids.


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truckmentruckmen - 8/14/2007 5:12:53 PM
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The Japanese have many Diesels everywhere but north America, that is why I see a lot of right hand drive diesel land Cruisers drivind around.

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