60 Votes

The Press LOVES The New Clean Diesels. But People Aren't Buying Them. Tell Us WHY?

Agent001 submitted on 7/24/2009 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 11:58:55 PM

98 user comments | Category: Spy News | Source: www.autospies.com

I don't think I've read any review in the press that has been less than glowing (no glow pun intended) when it comes to the clean diesel offerings that are now being offered by the Germans.

Including us at AutoSpies.com.

In our opinion, the BMW 335d and BlueTec E-Class offer customers the best balance of handling, safety, longevity and economy of any cars on the market in the USA today.

But people couldn't care less and clean diesel sales here are SEVERELY underwhelming.

On paper everything looks so good.

But the real world sales results are enough to confound the brightest German auto exec.

So tell us (and them) what IS it, that is stopping these wonderful vehicles from achieving overwhelming success in the world of $3.00 per gallon gas?

Comment below...

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The Press LOVES The New Clean Diesels. But People Aren't Buying Them. Tell Us WHY?

About the Author

FWD Torque Steer. Absolute proof the Devil exists.
— Agent001 (View Profile)

User Comments

Because there's people that aren't the press?
— Carboy (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:16:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10

Unlike Europe, American's are mostly used to using petrol, and people most likely will stick with what they are comfortable/used to. I also think IMO a lot of people would turn to hybrid technology before diesel.
— RNeekChic (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:23:00 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8

Diesel = oil dependence = part of the problem
— sector (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:24:53 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5

Living in Alberta where most of our income comes from oil I would like you to stfu, it gives us jobs and we aren't going to run out any time soon.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:37:55 AM | | Votes: 0

we may not run out, but even if we were, there's STILL good reasons to cut use of fossil fuels.

having any WILD FIRES in your region? despite all the head-in-the-sand deniers, that is ONE effect of global warming. more droughts, more heat, MORE WILDFIRES!

and all the A/C units running in cars and buildings DO NOT COOL things down except in limited spaces. they only PUMP heat outside, with additional heat dumped out as interest! there is a positive FEEDBACK CYCLE with global warming, more A/C units running full blast in more places, YET MORE warming, etc. etc.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 6:31:56 AM | | Votes: -7

Actually no, this has been an absolutely miserable year and has been about 5-10 degrees cooler then normal. Global warming is bs, that's why all the hcore people are saying that it's now called "climate change" that way they can blame any sort of nasty weather on our actions. Saying that our pollution is causing wildfires is like the 5 year old kid thinking he is the only reason why his parents divorced.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 11:13:16 AM | | Votes: 11

climate change or global warming or whatever you wanna call it is far from B.S.

you can choke on your oil though. electric cars are coming:-)

how does it feel?
— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 7:39:31 AM | | Votes: -1

btw, you're far dumber than the people who say burning oil causes wildfires. and far more ignorant too.
— DinamoR (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 7:40:47 AM | | Votes: -2

DinamoR, you are calling me retarded and ignorant. I won't stoop to your levels but just want to say that all you are doing is regurgitating the opinions of others, and in all probability it's of the media in general. When everyone believed the world was flat were the people who thought otherwise retarded and ignorant? They were sure called that, but the smart people didn't criticize anyone's ideas because they knew that they honestly didn't know for sure. You are faithful to the idea's that has been told to you many times over. In my mind you are the one not keeping your mind open to the possibilities, I am not saying that what we put into the air just disappears. I am saying that the amount of emphasis and beliefs put into how strong of an effect are vastly blown out of proportion, it's what the media does and it is good at it.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 2:51:22 PM | | Votes: 3

3 Problems.
1) Not every gas stations has diesel. It gets worse when you have to go long distance trip.
2) In U.S., diesel cars more expensive than petrol cars while it's the other way in Europe.
3) Diesel price fluctuate more than petrol. You should remember the time diesel cost $1 more than regular petrol.
— TopGear (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:42:24 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 9

Right on.Plus its human nature to stay with what your use to and comfortable with.Also,the diesels of the 80's were enough to keep people away from diesels forever.
— rxh8me9000 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 3:27:38 AM | | Votes: 5

In Europe diesel cars are pricier than their petrol counterparts. Always have.
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:04:13 PM | | Votes: 6

WTF is it with you people always commenting that in Europe Diesels are cheaper than their Petrol Engined counterparts ?

Diesel Engined Vehicles are More Expensive than their Petrol Engined counterparts in the UK and Europe.

Memorize that Bloody Line.
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:14:17 PM | | Votes: 5

Finding diesel fuel is NOT difficult. That is a myth. We have diesel cars and rarely if ever find a station that does not have it.
— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:24:18 PM | | Votes: 5

For the enthusiast driver diesels have never been, and likely never will be a viable choice. The main thrust of diesel development had been toward removing the clunking noise and putrid smell declaring success when those are gone. The press is ‘enamored’ with diesels only because they are ‘amazed’ at these advances – and after they publish their statements they go back to their non-diesel vehicles for the same reason that all other car enthusiast don’t buy them.

Very important, and I’d say crucial, ingredient of owner’s love-affair with their cars isn’t the absence but presence of right sounds and smells. Revving the M3’s engine to 8000rpm makes you drop windows next to every road barrier and tunnel just to hear the amplified sounds. Revving a big v8 in your convertible to hear and smell and ‘feel’ the power is intoxicating. Even small 4-bangers when revved high (Honda vTech, Lotus/Toyota vvt, Mitsu/mivec) offer exhilaration never felt in a diesel. Many Europeans ‘like’ their diesels because it’s economically forced upon them (through pricing, taxation, incentives).

That leaves people who view their cars as appliances as the only target market-segment. And for those people, at least in the USA, hybrids are a much better alternative: cleaner, perceived as environment-friendlier, less noisy/stinky, and overall “cooler.” Add on top of that lack of other incentives around diesels (higher/more volatile diesel cost and inconsistent availability) and the sales results are absolutely not surprising.
— MiniMaks (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 1:38:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

MiniMaks,

How many people who buy these cars are actually enthusiasts? Most BMW owners I know by their cars because of the image it projects, not because of the driving dynamics or engine sounds. The real enthusiast market is very small and even those people are willing to give diesels a chance. Not every enthusiast cares about high-revving the engine etc.
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:10:08 PM | | Votes: 5

hmm....R10 and R15 debunk your argument. It is only a matter of time when the first production diesel sports car comes out.
— VISO (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 2:55:52 PM | | Votes: 1

If you are looking for a general answer, then I have to agree that when asked to consider an alternative fueling method, most tend to go the hybrid route. Hybrids reduce the need for oil, diesel or petrol, even viewing it as a compromise on an all-electric solution.

Specifically though, I think the problems lie with the individual products. The 335d is expensive. The Bluetec E-Class can't even be sold in all 50 states thanks to its emissions. As far as the Jetta TDI, more people would rather have a Camry in general. This could continue down the list...
— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 1:42:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

MB BlueTecs meet the emission standards of all 50 states.
— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 9:51:19 AM | | Votes: 5

Thank you for the correction. After the E320 Bluetec that could only be sold in 42 states, Mercedes added more filters to make it legal in all 50 states.
— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 3:13:48 PM | | Votes: 1

Mercedes never added any more filters to the E320 BlueTEC and the car was never allowed to be sold in all 50 states. This is ridiculous how people who don't know are the first to speak and spread the false opinion.

"For Mercedes-Benz and the E320 BlueTEC, it is the latest in the company’s push toward clean diesels, but, ironically, this car does not comply with vehicle regulations in 11 states unlike other Mercedes-Benz 50-state legal BlueTEC models that use urea injection such as the GL320, ML320 and R320. For consumers living outside of California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, the starting MSRP for the E320 BlueTEC is $54,200. "

http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Road_Test:_2009_Mercedes-Benz_E320_BlueTEC

PS. SUVs were allowed because they have to comply with lower emission standards than passanger cars (like the E320 BlueTEC).
— downtoearth (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 7:29:18 AM | | Votes: 3

Just to simplify the argument,

The E320 BlueTEC was never 50-state legal, but now that it is currently dropped from the line-up, all current Mercedes BlueTEC vehicles are 50-state legal.
— John_Stossel (View Profile)

Posted on 7/30/2009 5:25:51 PM | | Votes: 1

I think a big part of it is the stigma that came from the old Mercedes diesels of the 70's/80's. They were loud, the exhaust fumes choked everyone within a 5 mile radius and they had no power. This left a very bad impression in most people's minds. That and the fact that diesel trucks-ie., "big rigs" account for so much of this country's commerce and we see them and because of this as well people are not going to associate diesels as being cool.
— BondMI6 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:06:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

It was GM the ruined the Diesel image in the US. Needing a rebuild after only 20-30K miles or so. Very under powered as well.
— veyron1001 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 10:16:00 AM | | Votes: 8

VW TDIs are selling very well.
— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:24:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

The gas savings you receive from diesel in the U.S. aren't significant enough to compensate you over time. The petrol versions of vehicles are usually several thousands cheaper, and I've seen diesel as much as $.50/gallon more than petrol.
— adamsaf723 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 3:19:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

That is actually false. A recent report has shown exactly the opposite with a number of the new models.
— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:26:05 PM | | Votes: 4

I'll tell you why people aren't buying diesels:

Jetta TDI
Touareg 2 TDI
335d - Sedan only
X5d
E BlueTec
M Bluetec
GL BlueTec

What happened to the rest of the list? Oh that's right. We only get the boring, expensive, or unwanted diesel variants. With the exception of the Jetta TDI, the average consumer cannot afford the other options.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 5:21:27 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 12

I forgot to add....there isn't a single American that wants the hassle of having to service the "Blue Piss Injection" or special catalysts that the U.S. requires on diesel cars.

Plus we get gouged on diesels. An Audi dealer told me when the Q5 diesel gets here(if it ever does), it will start around $50k.....that's nearly an $8k premium over the petrol version.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 5:31:14 AM | | Votes: -1

There is a thing called the second hand market.
— veyron1001 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 10:24:15 AM | | Votes: 1

You can't have secondhand if there is no firsthand. And diesels are a long term investment, not something you turnaround in 5 years.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 11:25:16 AM | | Votes: 2

Not all clean diesel cars in the US require AdBlue or its equivalent.
— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:27:17 PM | | Votes: 4

The Jetta TDI is the only CAR currently offered that doesn't require urea injection. Even the Touareg 2 requires urea. The only vehicles that are able to circumvent the urea injection are classified as trucks. Even then, Mercedes is replacing the CDIs with BlueTecs.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 4:39:24 PM | | Votes: 3

First of all, the current Q5 starts at $37,000, so that would be a $13,000 premium over the petrol version of the Q5. Second of all, since the Q7 TDI starts at 50k, I highly doubt that the Q5 will start at the same price.
— FitzLA (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 1:08:31 PM | | Votes: 4

You're right, it does start at $37k...+1. I was going off of the premium I forgot about the base model, which by the way has everything you need pretty much. I don't need heated seats or mirrors, or the sound system. My wife and I are considering a base Q5 3.2L because you don't have the ridiculous glass roof, and it has a pretty decent mpg rating and competent AWD to boot.

However, I did inquire about the diesel Q5 with the dealer, and he said they're pushing about $50k if the diesel does come to the U.S. I sh*t you not about what the dealer told me. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen. But, he said the base TDI would be around $50k. This guy was actually from Germany, working out of this dealership. Why, I have no idea but, he was very convincing with the accent and all. I felt like I was talking to Dr. Zetsche of Mercedes the whole time.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 8:44:18 PM | | Votes: 1

From someone who has the Q5, you're gonna love it. Really an inpressive crossover. If you're planning on ordering one, you can always get premium plus package and delete the sunroof. Sound system doesn't change from base to premium plus (as of 2010 model, which is out now). I got mine the first week they were out, and had a chance to drive it up to the mountains in the snow. Never skipped a beat. Let me know if you have any questions at all, since I've had several months to get used to the car.
— FitzLA (View Profile)

Posted on 7/28/2009 2:10:10 PM | | Votes: 1

good points that ALL of you make, especially minimaks.

the fact that even mercedes is now offering a Hybrid S-class as an alternative to the Lexus LS600Lh, is in a way a concession to the REALITY that HYBRIDS will fare better in the future than diesels. at least in the U.S.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 6:21:46 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

A lot of great points here. Here's one more, maybe the primary one:

Diesels do not have the main stream exposure hybrids do. You can approach anyone on the street and ask them about a hybrid. Most can't tell you how they work but everyone knows they're "good for the environment" (a dubious claim at best). Most folks think hybrids are a lot cheaper to drive as well.

Diesels just don't have that image. Many folks are unaware that they even exist. It doesn't help that diesel fuel is more expensive. The average consumer, who refuses to do the math, will by pass a diesel thinking there is no advantage.

It will take some time and commitment for the manufacturers to convey the advantages of the new diesels. Folks over here don't know about the massive torque, the clean emissions, quiet running and fuel efficiency. Right now, that re-education would be a huge and very expensive task. I can see why no one is up to it.
— kuvakas1 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 8:23:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 11

Reading the above comments, one theme keeps coming up and that's people will stick to what they're used to. But then why have hybrids been such a success?

I have a 2008 MB GL 320 CDI and love it. It has plenty of power and I get an average of 26 MPG highway, which to me is great for a vehicle of that size considering I was only getting 20 MPG highway in my 2007 Tahoe. I can go well over 700 miles on one tank and when I did the research at www.fueleconomy.gov before purchasing the GL even with the, at the time, higher cost of diesel the diesel was still cheaper to drive per mile than the gas equivalent. The MB diesels have the same service interval as their gas counterparts (10,000 miles).

The government is now offering clean air incentives on many of the clean diesel models, the same as on hybrids. BMW is even offering a $4500 eco credit on the 335d and it is eligible for a $900 federal tax credit which makes the base price less than that of a 335i. BMW still includes maintenance with their vehicles.

Don't forget that a lot of the vehicles we are talking about here require premium gas which cuts the cost difference between diesel and gas a lot. Where I live in Ohio, premium is selling for $2.52 and diesel is $2.39.

For me, diesels make sense. The only reason I wouldn't get a 335d or E Class Bluetec is because in the US they are not offered as AWD.
— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 8:55:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 13

Wonderful cars - They are too expensive. Diesels will never pay themselves - since most sell their cars every 2-4 years. In addition - the BMWs are saddled with awful run-flat tires and no spare.
— abqhudson (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 9:09:40 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

the "runflat tires/no spare" thing has absolutely nothing to do with this, since the non-diesel versions of the cars also have them.
— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 9:55:48 AM | | Votes: 4

"They are too expensive. Diesels will never pay themselves"

The same thing could be said about hybrids.
— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 11:56:34 AM | | Votes: 4

some (not all, esp. those in luxury category) hybrids DO pay for themselves. in just two-three years.

all savings after that is GRAVY.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 8/8/2009 4:31:42 AM | | Votes: 1

NONE of the gas stations I frequent have Diesel, especially Costco.
— sdcarguy (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 9:17:33 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

E-Bluetec and 335d cost $50,000 and up. People who buy those cars can't be bothered to lineup behind a transport to fill up.

VW TDI costs more than the 2010 Prius and performs significantly worse.

The press can jerkoff to diesels all they want, customers are smarter.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 9:32:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -8

Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but a 335d starts at $43,900 before the $4500 eco credit or the $900 federal tax credit. A Jetta TDI is about $220 more (base price) than a Prius, but is eligible for a $1300 federal income tax credit (the Prius is not) and includes 3 years no charge scheduled maintenance.
— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 9:45:37 AM | | Votes: 9

"The press can jerkoff to diesels all they want, customers are smarter."

You mean those "smart" customers, who know absolutely nothing about modern diesels and diesel technology and who BLINDLY follow and believe the marketing bullshit that Toyota and Lexus shoves down their throats?

Sorry, those people are total dumbasses. The average American who buys a hybrid seems to think it will give him good fuel economy no matter what he does. The only real advantage to a hybrid is in the city. But in mixed driving they have very few advantages because of the extra weight they lug around.
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:06:27 PM | | Votes: 5

the 'blind' customers, however, are smart enuff to know that the soot and particulates ALL diesels emit (with and without scrubbers, which only reduce the amount) CAUSE CANCER.

look at the cancer rates in ALL major port cities. between (largely unregulated) ship engines, and truck and train engines moving freight, all port cities have higher levels of DIESEL ENGINE GENERATED POLLUTION than other cities.

besides causing cancer, diesel fumes have rotted the brains of kraut oil burner lovers.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 7/28/2009 4:39:37 AM | | Votes: 1

I think it is the price point. usually people who are concerned about the gas mileage are more concerned about the money, not the environment. I think BMW should have tried to dabble in a 1 series diesel. I, would personally love a 135 diesel 5 door hatch.
The reason I didnt get a 335d is because the lease rates werent out at that point. so it was much cheaper for me to get in to the petrol. Next time around, I will highly consider the diesel. I will never drive a hybrid.
Hybrids are way overpriced and offer no realy advantage. My friends mom has an RX400h and she only avereages 17mpg. what a waste of money! She is mad that her X5 was averaging 19mpg's and it was a 2006 4.4i! Sorry, but I would rather have a V8 BMW over a boring Lexus hybrid.
— 2ndbimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 10:57:45 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

people are used to $3 a gallon, when it gets to $4, they freak out and buy diesels
— RaulT (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 11:01:20 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

yeah sure.

gas isn't even that high yet, but do you see ANY diesels among the popular new cars sold under the cash for clunkers program?

toyota dealers are once again seeing priuses flying off the lots. and selling a lot of corollas and yarises to those unable to get a prius.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 8/8/2009 4:37:39 AM | | Votes: 1

The image in terms of Jetta TDIs billowing dark smoke and making a racket, the cost to buy, the perceived reliability and complexity of modern diesels (and German cars), and diesel fuel availability all add up... In the perception war gasoline-electric hybrids seem like less of a hassle. Add to that the promise of plug-in hybrids, serial hybrids, natural-gas turbine hybrids and the diesels seem like dinosaurs.
— vdiv (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 11:20:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Diesels are the HD-DVD in the war for alternative fuel.
— 100tnega (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:13:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

Westy,
That's in Canadian $.

As for the Jetta TDI, the stripped down TDI Trendline, once you put an auto and rear airbags in it, costs the same as a base Prius but you don't get anywhere the amount of technology or mileage. All you get is the assurance that you're helping the Germans pad their profits by overpaying for 100yo technology.

Prius doesn't qualify for gov't rebates anymore because they're too popular, not that they need them anyway.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:16:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

2ndbimmer,
I don't believe you. An LS600hL with a bigger engine and about 1500lbs more weight gets more than 17mpg. If you're going to lie, atleast make it plausible.

Either that or she drives with the parking brake on.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 12:19:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Here's something for Moron76.

The diesel versus hybrid battle moves to the luxury sports sedan ring

By John LeBlanc
July 21, 2009

In the pursuit of lower fuel consumption ratings and tailpipe emissions, efficient hybrids and diesels are starting to filter into mainstream passenger cars. Even in cars that have sporty or luxurious pretensions.

Right now, though, there are only two luxury rear-wheel-drive sports sedans that also take saving fuel seriously: The new-for-2009 BMW 335d (d as in diesel) and the 2009 Lexus GS 450h (h as hybrid), which has been on sale now for a couple of years.

Yes, we know. The 3 Series is a compact sedan, and the GS a mid-sizer. But Lexus hasn't seen fit to put a diesel under the hood of its compact IS sedan. And BMW doesn't make a hybrid version of its mid-size 5 Series. Or vice versa. So until that day comes, this is as close as luxury sports sedan buyers can get to comparing fun-to-drive and frugality:

Second place: 2009 Lexus GS 450h
Because the GS 450h is one size up on the 335d, it's priced accordingly. At $63,050, the Lexus hybrid starts out $13,350 more expensive to buy than the BMW diesel.

To match these two equipment-wise, you need to add the GS 450h's lone option: a $6,600 Ultra Premium Package (Mark Levinson audio, navigation system with backup camera and more.) That brings the Lexus's final price to $69,650.

Your passenger's legs will thank you
Interestingly, a quick glance at the spec sheets of these two five-passenger sedan's show that they are closer in interior accommodations than you think.

In the end, however, the GS's longer wheelbase wins out. Front passengers in both of these luxury sedans enjoy similar room. But the GS delivers more rear shoulder and legroom.

One fast hybrid
When it comes to horsepower and torque outputs, hybrids and diesels are polar opposites. Whereas the 335d is all about torque, the Lexus is all about horsepower. At least when its batteries are fully juiced ...

Just like the Lexus brochure says, the GS 450h really does have the performance of a V8. In a straight line - when both forms of power are being called upon - the GS 450h is one fast hybrid: zero to 100 km/h takes a sports car-like 5.5 seconds, which is 0.8 seconds quicker than the 335d. But that's only when you have access to the hybrid's full 339 hp. Back-to-back acceleration runs will cause the GS 450h to revert to its 3.5-litre gas V6's gas-only ratings of 292 horsepower and 267 lb.-ft.

As a quiet and swift highway machine, the GS 450h shines. It's the type of car where hours spent behind the wheel can seem like minutes. But as soon as you hit the twisties, the Lexus loses its enthusiasm to play along.

As a sports sedan, the lack of steering feel is the GS 450h's biggest problem. And when asked to hustle - like most CVTs - its transmission constantly toggles back and forth, hunting for the right ratio. Plus, with a curb weight of 1,875 kg, the Lexus has to carry around ab
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:14:05 PM | | Votes: 3

about 140 kg of extra weight compared to the lighter BMW. Add it all up, and the GS 450h is harder to accurately place in turns than the more agile 335d.

Fast? Yes. Frugal? Let me get back to you on that …
Is the GS 450h one quick luxury sedan? In a straight line, at least, you betcha. But does its hybrid drivetrain deliver the best gas mileage of this duo? Not if you spend a lot of time in its natural highway habitat.

Yes, the hybrid GS gets about the same fuel economy as the V6 GS 350. And its city rating of 8.7 L/100 km betters - by a whisker - the 335d's 9.0 L city rating. But out of urban stop-and-go traffic (where hybrids are the least efficient) the Lexus needs 7.8 L/100 km, whereas the 335d is about 40 per cent more economical, at a rate of only 5.4 L. Throw in its premium pricing, and the Lexus ends up costing you in more ways than one.

Buy this car if ... if you like your hybrids to be fast in a straight line; need extra rear seat room; want a luxury car ride.

Don't buy this car if ... if bang-for-your-buck is a priority; need a roomy trunk; expect sports sedan handling.

First place: 2009 BMW 335d
Free of options, the BMW compact diesel sedan starts at $49,700 - obviously a clear advantage over the larger GS. But our loaded $61,400 335d tester had everything except the kitchen sink, including a $2,500 Executive Package, $2,000 Navigation Package, $2,800 Premium package, $2,000 Audiophile package and (finally) a $2,400 Sport Package (phew!)

It's safe to assume, if BMW Canada offered a diesel in its 5 Series sedan - the Lexus's true rival - the GS 450h would probably have a price advantage. Maybe.

Small car, big trunk
Being a compact sedan, room for rear occupants in the BMW is tighter than in the larger Lexus. Three in the back is a real pinch.

However, those in the GS 450h will have to pack light. Because the Lexus hybrid needs to package two powerplants (gas and electric motors), rear trunk space (where the battery pack resides) suffers. Overall, the 335d has a 40-litre advantage over the Lexus.

Sips like a diesel; drives like a 3 Series
Like every other 3 Series gas model, the rear-drive only (there's no AWD option) 335d's engine is an inline six-cylinder. And it's a doozy of a diesel.

Compared to the GS 450h, the 335d has 74 less horsepower (265 hp). Its 3.0 litres of displacement is helped by two turbochargers. The smaller one blows at low rpms, while the larger turbo forces air at higher rpms.

Unlike the gas-powered 335i, though, the diesel 3 gets a mandatory six-speed automatic you can shift for yourself with paddle shifters. Shifting, though, is quite superfluous. Prod its throttle, and the diesel's tractor-trailer-like 425 lb.-ft. of torque comes on like summer thunderstorms rolling across a Saskatchewan prairie.

So why is the BMW almost a full second slower to 100 km/h than the Lexus hybrid? Blame the autobox's Rocky Mountain-high gearing. The six gear ratios in the automatic are the sa
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:14:42 PM | | Votes: 3

the same for both gas 335i and 335d, but the 335i's rear differential is 3.46:1 versus the 335d's taller 2.81:1 - hence the low highway consumption numbers.

Frugality and fun, in one luxury sports sedan
As smart European customers have learned (in some markets, 71 per cent of BMWs are diesels), there are no tangible differences between driving a diesel and a comparable gas model 3 Series. The 335d is still one of the best handing sports sedans around.

Compared to the larger, heavier Lexus, the BMW is a much more precise back road weapon. Accurate steering, stable cornering, and balanced handling - it's all there - just like in every other 3 Series. The only area it falls behind the GS 450h is in ride quality. It's decidedly not cushy.

About the only thing missing from the normal 3 Series driving experience is the symphonic shrill of a BMW gas straight-six at high revs (instead, the 335d's exhaust has more bass and less treble) and a manual transmission. And a surprise bonus: the traditional diesel clatter has been all but eliminated in the new 335d.

Buy this car if ... if you want the ride and handling of a 3 Series, but with better-than-a-hybrid fuel economy; uncompromised sized trunk space.

Don't buy this car if ... you need mid-size rear passenger room; need to win every stoplight grand prix; limo-like ride quality.

Source: http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/GreenCentre/article.aspx?cp-documentid=20482670
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:15:24 PM | | Votes: 6

Gee thanks Willis! A whole copy-and-paste of a stereotypical Lexus vs. BMW review! What a treat!
— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 3:09:07 PM | | Votes: -4

Not sure what to make of that headline.

VW is selling everyone of them they can make here. 26% of all VW sales last month were diesels.
— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:22:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Leading those sales was the Jetta SportWagen of which 81% percent of all sold were TDI’s. This means that when you see a Jetta SportWagen on the road it is most likely going to be a diesel. Furthermore, 40% of all Taureg sales were diesel models.
— SteedPub (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 2:30:22 PM | | Votes: 5

Willis,
That's amazing, the article just came out on MSN yesterday and you so superbly were able to cut and paste it w/o any input of your own.

Do you know what 40L is? It's half a gas tank or 2 regular gerry cans. Not even close to 1 full suitcase. Yeah, the Lexus guys better pack light.

More German fanboy stupidity. btw, whats in the 335d, cement? The GS450h, batteries and all, only weighs 300lbs more than the 335duh.
You should also note the GSh and 335d have the same city mileage, the 335d only wins on the highway. Nobody will dispute a smaller displacement diesel, working where its most efficient, will win against a bigger gas engine.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 4:04:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

The typical diesel has a lot in common with the popular American V8s of old. Big push-rod Amercian V8s are not revvers. The 5.7L V8 in the 1967 Camaro redlines at 5500rpm. The BMW 335d has a 3.0L I6 with a redline of 5000rpm. Traditionally, the American V8 is known for its torque. This is also where diesel engines excel. The 5.7L in the '67 Camaro put out 410 lb-ft of torque. The 3.0L turbo-diesel in the BMW 335d puts out 425 lb-ft. Let me tell you why diesels are not popular in the US.

1) VW, Mercedes, Jeep and BMW are the only companies offering diesels right now. None of these are particularly known for their reliability.

2) Mercedes and BMW are expensive.

3) VW and Jeep are not large volume sellers, even with their gasoline versions.

The ONLY way that diesels will become popular in the US is if brands that are trusted offer them. That means Toyota, Honda, Nissan. Sad, but true.
— tango (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 6:59:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

You have got to be kidding me. If Toyota starts offering diesels in the US these engines will become popular just because Toyota is known for reliability and value!? Give me a break. Seriously.

Mercedes has a history of making reliable engines, especially diesels. Americans also know this. Mercedes sold more diesels in the US in the 1970s and 1980s than gasoline models. There are many people out there that damn well know that Mercedes diesels can be trusted, even the newer ones. In fact, it is safe to say that Mercedes has a 100 year history of making reliable cars. The bad spell in the mid 1990s to around 2002/03 can be seen as a bad glitch. Recent evidence shows how much MBs have improved in reliability. Reliability is not the reason these engines sell. If reliability was a reason, then explain to me how come Mercedes can sell all its other non-diesel-engined cars in the US in decent numbers. Explain that to me please.

You talk about reliability all the time as if it is all that matters. When a Lexus has on average 4.5 problems per year it is called reliable but when a Mercedes has (again on average) 5.5 problems per year it is deemed unreliable. Give me another break.

Mercedes even demonstrated the reliability of their diesel engines in the W211 E-Class twice. Three E320 CDI's, CHOSEN AT RANDOM BY A NEUTRAL COMMISSION in the MB factory were tested for 30 days on the highspeed test track in Laredo, Texas. NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM despite these cars being driven at high speeds CONSISTENTLY for 30 days stopping only for fuel, fresh tires and driver changes.

The second test were a large number of again RANDOMLY CHOSEN E320 CDI's for the Paris-Peking trip. The trip was monitored by a NEUTRAL and unbiased commission again. Not a single E-Class broke down or suffered any sort of major problem.

So please stop this silly theory of yours that Toyota can sell diesels while others can't because Toyotas are "so reliable". It's bullsh_t. It has nothing to do with facts. It's just what it is. A silly theory with no real basis.

Diesels have not caught on in the US because people obviously don't know about the benefits. From my understanding the marketing of Mercedes, BMW etc. regarding their diesels in the US is extremely low while Toyota/Lexus literally shove their hybrid advertising down your throat on a daily basis. It doesn't help that Americans have weird social perceptions about diesels being "socially unacceptable" in passenger sedans. The list is endless really.
— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 7:47:54 PM | | Votes: 4

" Or the lunar module was made to 89% of Japanese components and electronics."

Hey troll boy (aka Mithchell)

Show me the link to prove that quote is true. I will apollogize(pun intended) if you can prove that with legit evidence. Now I think you just making stuff up.

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 10:35:40 PM | | Votes: 3

Mitchell,

Times up!

Unless MIT moved from Japan to Cambridge MA. after 1969, you wrong and just a fanboy troll.

Here is your links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

http://www.klabs.org/mapld04/papers/g/g202_portillo_p.pdf

— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 10:46:26 PM | | Votes: 3

no need to refer to space vehicles as reference that the japanese excel in electronics.

just look at the ordinary road vehicles we ALL use. for 9 models combined, over 8 model years, there is all of ONE black mark for power eqpt. in the CR reliability records. for 7 MB models over the same 8 years, there are a staggering EIGHTEEN!

maybe MB diesels are popular because unlike the gas versions, you don't get stranded if the electronic ignition goes kaput! (diesels not requiring sparks. but on second thot, they still require electronic injectors.)

gas or diesel, MBs also get NINE black dots for engine problems, major or minor. all those Lexuses, get all of ZERO, zip, NADA!

it is not even a contest, comparing japanese vs. german reliability.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 7/28/2009 5:11:24 AM | | Votes: 0

For me the answer was simple. BMW brought over the engine in the wrong car. Had they sold the 335d in the coupe I would have bought it, hands down.

To be Frank, a lot of the diesel offerings here in the states seem oddly positioned. So far in the middle in terms of fuel economy/performance that they are almost doomed to failure. IMO, if manufacturers brought over lower displacement diesels with significantly higher fuel economy ratings they would sell better. I say this because the only people inclined to look at a diesel engine anyways are the "rational" consumers that understand they will spend most of their time in their car poking along in traffic.
— GreenPlease (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 7:19:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8

Listen. I would love to own the 335d if it didn't have the urea tank requirement. It's a great car, and I guarantee you that if it did not require to have the urea tank, it would be selling like hotcakes here in the US.

Do the Europeans require the urea tank on the 335d?

— investor27 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/25/2009 10:40:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

no. But they also don't require the vehicles to pass California emission standards (similar standars of which are shared with 7 other states). It wouldn't be cost effective to not be able to sell the car in all 50 states, especially when several of them are BMW's biggest U.S. markets. So you're stuck with urea injection, because it's cleaner.

Could you explain why the urea system would stop you from driving one? You only have to fill the tank once a year, and it's free (with BMW anyway -- it's included in your maintenace plan, and even when that expires you can buy AdBlue for a few dollars at WalMart). I don't see the downside, especially when it improves emissions (which is why people buy "green" cars anyway, right? Right? I ask because that's what I've been reading on here for years about why the Lexus LS600h and GS450h make sense, when they don't do a single thing better than their non-hybrid counterparts.)
— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 1:32:55 AM | | Votes: 2

Diesels are heavier and expensive to maintain, and more money to buy,plus they are not that much better on fuel. This is a few good reasons why I don't like them
— truckman (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 5:26:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

"Diesels are heavier and expensive to maintain, and more money to buy,plus they are not that much better on fuel."

Please don't compare a MASSIVE TRUCK DIESEL ENGINE to a 3-cylinder Geo Metro.
— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 6:26:19 AM | | Votes: 4

The BMW 335d gets 36 mpg highway while the gas version gets 26 mpg highway. The base MSRP on the 335d is $43,900 but is eligible for a $4500 eco credit from BMW and a $900 federal income tax credit. The 335i base price starts at $40,300 and does not come with any rebates. BMW includes 3 year/36,000 no charge maintenance on both vehicles.

According to www.fueleconcomy.gov,a 335d costs $2.10 to drive 25 miles, while the 335i costs $3.32 to drive the same distance. Annual fuel costs for the 335d are $1260 and for the 335i are $1995 based on 15,000 miles per year.

Sorry truckman, but the only point you are right on here is that the 335d is about 300 pounds heavier than a 335i.

— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 9:31:58 AM | | Votes: 3

Because people in the US don't know jack about cars.
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 11:56:36 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Easy answer for me:
1. Diesels are for the "frugal" minded - people who want to save money on gas. BUT the only people who care to save money on gas are people with less income and BMW/MBs are not targeting these people. VW Jetta diesels sell well because there market benefits most from lower fuel costs.
2. When was the last time a consumer who bought a Mercedes E350 really cared that it cost him an extra $500 in gas vs. diesel annually? Until this price difference becomes significant (maybe $1200 per year?) people with money to burn on a BMW or MB simply don't care about the "savings" that a weaker diesel may offer.
— quizz (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 6:39:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

"When was the last time a consumer who bought a Mercedes E350 really cared that it cost him an extra $500 in gas vs. diesel annually?"

It was a year ago this month. I got a GL320 CDI, but thanks for asking.
— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 8:21:13 PM | | Votes: 5

There are plenty of consumers in the premium/luxury market who want a car that is both powerful, luxurious and fuel efficient. The Bluetec diesels from Mercedes satisfy this demand. In fact typical Mercedes customers in the US seem to want the European C250 CDI and E250 CDI as well as a diesel GLK according to a very insightful forum discussion on www.iht.com.
— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 8:49:37 PM | | Votes: 4

I'm another one who doesn't like having to add yet another fluid to my car...which will go into computer lockdown if I don't keep the urea tank serviced.

It's not a terribly rational concern, but I just don't like this clumsy solution to the pollution problem.
— Drockle (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 6:47:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

What exactly is so clumsy about the urea solution? It's design to last past the first mandatory 10,000 mile checkup and even beyond. Should it need refilling your MB dealer will do that for you during the service check.

Oh yeah, since you seem to be so "lazy" in regards to filling your car up with fluids, don't forget to check your radiator water level...
— Wimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 8:47:44 PM | | Votes: 2

Simple, because diesels are nose heavy, noisy, dirty, smelly, toxic, expensive, not sustainable and cumbersome with marginally better throttle response than a John Deere tractor.

Visit a John Deere showroom near you to see the "immediate" competition to BMW 335d, X5d and MB Bluetec models.
— sector (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 9:57:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Clearly you haven't driven one lately.
— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/26/2009 10:26:58 PM | | Votes: 2

There's not enough government support for clean diesels in cars.
— wins555 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 2:52:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

$$$$$ that is why. I keep a car no more than 2 to 3 years top. I will never recover the saving in $$ with a diesel over a gas engine model. Same as a hybrid.
— fatandsassy (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 8:44:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Let's see. The article says people are not buying the BWM 3 series diesel, and the E class diesel.

VW sure is selling a lot of diesel Jettas. Especially the sportwagen.

One of two things.

1. Diesel buyers are more educated and don't fall for the whole badgewhore image.

2. Diesel is more about saving money, and buying a Honda Civic sized BWM 3 series for 45K just to save a few dollars on fuel just doesn't make any sense.
— Invisible (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 9:47:31 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

The reason why I do not own a Diesel.
1. Manual transmission is becoming rare in the US especially diesel.
2. Insurance (being under 20 doesnt help)
3. The only diesels that meet criterial 1 is the jetta or golf in the pre owned market.
4. Only 3 diesel stations that I know of in my area.
5. A well taken care of diesel costs more than the gas model (this varies)
6. Market is dominated by trucks that less than 10% of the truck owning population needs.
7. The diesels I want to own are only sold in Europe.
— veyron1001 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 10:12:12 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

I'd actually really like to get a new diesel, however, the limited models available currently don't really appeal to me either due to price or placement.

What I'd really like to have stateside is a 123d (or even 120d). The 335d is just a bit too pricey for me.

Also the A3 diesel. Not a VW snob, personally (we have an Eos in the house). Just like the looks and features of the Audi.
— Janizary (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 12:26:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I'm currently in the market for a new vehicle - and am considering a diesel but the options are very limited. Right now I have an '06 BMW 330i which I got for about $40,000 - a similar equipped 335d is almost $60,000 - YIKES thats almost 50% more in 3 years. I do like the Jetta TDI - but wish it had a few more upscale options as in the GLI - such as BlueTooth, Leather, Home Link, and Power Seats.

Not sure what I'll do yet as I'll probably also look at the new A4 but really wish there was a diesel option...or I may just keep my 330i
— ChiAutoGuy (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 1:58:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

VW TDis sell very, very well at my local dealer.
They had 20 in stock early last week and they are sold out!
The TDi Sportwagen especially!!!
— AlexTx (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 3:33:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

ChiAutoGuy,
If you happen to have paid off your 330i, keep it, saves you on payments. If you leased, you're pretty much done either way.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/27/2009 9:50:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

There is a very simple reason why there is a reluctance to buy diesel vehicles; peoples' "perception" of the "dark sludge". In Europe it has proved interesting watching, monitoring & grinning at diesel's eventual acceptance by the car-buying public.

The '70s fuel crisis. In the '70s, it was all about diesel's "stink". From "ignition start-up", to the gritted teeth while waiting for the glow-plug warning light to go out on the dashboard(and the need to search "high & low" eveywhere for glow spark plugs to purchase when the car needed a DIY! - Yes. That age generation!), to watching oily black smoke trail you from the exhaust pipe (note the singular!) for miles and the attendant embarrassment of your peers staring "smugly" at you, to the almost surreal "slow motion" top speeds being achievable at the time.

In the '80s, all hail the "Company car" and reps all over Europe having to make hard choices regarding their cars or was it the "bean counters"(accountants) in the offices? The Company car component constituted up to 70% of new car sales in certain European countries and only slightly less in others. All this time, companies like BMW (with the 525d and 525e(eta)), Volkswagen and Fiat were working frantically to get ever advancing diesel technology accepted by the "buying public". Even the Brazilians were hard at work developing "alcohol fuel technology"!

Since then, car manufacturers all over the world have brought great advances in diesel technology, remedying the problems/issues in the second paragraph above. Except in the USA. For which there are very good reasons why its public are reluctant. From cheap fuel, to an inability to identify with diesel engines and diesel fuel as "not doing my image any good!.... Levi jeans? Yes. But not diesel!" Times are changing as the US comes to realise that diesel is now palatable and practically, as refined and fast as the petrol engines.

It will be interesting watching the "percentage-ratio" change between these two fuels. I just know that the day people buy diesel V12s over petrol versions, it will be because the diesel is a more refined and better technology. We might still have to put up with some "stink" at fuel stations.

Fellow Americans embrace it!!

isaacu
— isaacu (View Profile)

Posted on 7/28/2009 1:32:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Top 10 Reasons Why Americans Hate Diesel and Diesel Engines;

1. Diesel and its engines have a reputation for being smelly, oily, smoky, noisy, polluting, and generally bad.
2. Reputations are often hard to live down.
3. Diesel fuel is often more expensive than petrol.
4. Diesel is not available everywhere.
5. Diesel has become a symbol for crappy technology.
6. Only a few diesel cars are available.
7. Performance is weird (low HP but huge torque? WTF does that mean?).
8. Trucks have diesel engines and they are slow and smelly.
9. Most people think that diesel is an old and boring, dirty technology, whereas hybrid/electric is a new, exciting, clean, green technology.
10. Europe loves diesels. Therefore, lots of Americans hate them just because of that fact.
— thstone (View Profile)

Posted on 7/28/2009 5:32:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Why do Americans shun diesels?

quizz got it: Diesels are for tightwads. They count their pennies and would burn nuclear fuel if it were cheaper. They don't care about performance or the environment. They care about their pennies.
Hell, most of the cheapest tightwads I have met are German, Czechs, etc.

Diesel fuel itself smells horrible and is filthy. I hate getting gas from a pump that has diesel fuel along with gas. You have to watch where you step and what you touch so you don't get back in your car smelly and dirty.

Oh, and one more thing, they are DIESELS!
— avanti64 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/30/2009 11:22:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Real reason why diesel doesn't work in N.America.

1. Diesel power is for towing, not low stress cruising.
2. N.Americans aren't willing to overpay so some Germans can make more profit on dinosaur technology, no matter how cool the Germans say they'll be if they pretend to be a diesel loving Eurotard.
3. Diesel only gets better mileage as the engine (and car) gets smaller and slower. Hybrids get better mileage and performance while the car gets bigger.
4. The U.S. lets the market decide, not artificially inflating diesel demand like they do in Europe, like how BMW/MB/VW mail brown envelopes stuffed with cash and instructions to gov't offices.
5. Clean diesel engines still smell like chlorine, just drive behind a Bluetec or a Setra bus.
6. N.Americans know diesel does nothing to reduce the demand for foreign oil, they know hybrids actually use less oil which means less imported oil.

Hybrids = "More from less", pretty simple to remember.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/30/2009 9:22:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Lastly.
As time passes and technology develops, hybrids get lower in price.
With diesels, the Germans raise the diesel premium and tell you it helps the env't.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 7/30/2009 9:24:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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