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Agent001
Dis is your ninety eight vatchamacalit?
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119
The WAR to settle the SCORE? Who will win? Lexus IS-F or BMW M3?
Agent001
submitted on 03/08/2007
Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 9:57 AM
from: www.autospies.com
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Tags: Lexus, BMW
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The WAR to settle the SCORE? Who will win? Lexus IS-F or BMW M3?
Over the past year and a half, speculation has been rampant on AutoSpies.com and other websites about the Lexus IS-F and BMW M3.
Now that they have both been announced, it looks like a battle of epic proportions is being planned with the winner gaining the ultimate prize...The ability to brag that they truly make the ULTIMATE driving machine.
Granted the full specs are not out but we have enough photos and information on both cars, to take our best educated guesses and argue the pros and cons of our points, in a gentlemanly fashion.
When the ultimate showdown finally happens and it's coming sooner than we all think, who will walk away with the crown?
The Lexus IS-F or the BMW M3?.
Ladies and Gentleman...oil your mice and start your keyboards!
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BMW4me4ever
- 3/8/2007 10:05:41 AM
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+1 Boost
I cant believe that you would even compare these two cars. The battle should and will be between the Audi RS4 and the M3. The lexus wont even be able to hold a candle to the BMW M3.
reply to this comment
no1listensanyway
- 3/8/2007 12:27:27 PM
View My AgentSpace
+1 Boost
Ethnocentrism anyone?
AUDIMAN4
- 3/8/2007 12:51:28 PM
-9 Boost
I don't understand why everyone keeps comparing the shitty IS to the 3. There was no comparison to begin with, so what makes you think a highpowered IS will be any different?
The real battle will be between the S5/RS5 and M3.
Will_
- 3/8/2007 12:56:53 PM
-6 Boost
IS350 was faster than the 330i, and is just as fast as the 335i. The only way the 3-Series comes out on top in every comparison test is the very intangible "handling" (a.k.a. "magic feel").
The same will be the case between the M3 and IS-F, but on a more extreme level.
flozel1
- 3/8/2007 1:11:32 PM
-5 Boost
"Lexus and company don't mean shit overhere"
With these comments, you can really tell Lexus has put the fear in some people. I said it once, I'll say it again. Lexus is still a young company - most especially in Europe. It "don't mean shit" there because they haven't really been trying...yet.
I know and you know (though you won't admit it) that in a short space of time, Lexus will conquer Europe as well as it did the US.
You can bet on it.
reply to this comment
AUDIMAN4
- 3/8/2007 2:03:50 PM
+2 Boost
Will, a sports car is more than just speed. The IS handles very poorly, and adding more power will not change that.
reply to this comment
izfuney
- 3/8/2007 2:05:18 PM
+7 Boost
Oldest continent !? The idiocy of your remarks sort of underline your absolute ignorance! "It is controversial whether Earth's budget of continental crust is increasing, decreasing, or remaining about constant, but it is agreed that this inventory is constantly being reconfigured" . going by that fact to around the first supercontinent that is recorded should be Vaalbara that existed between 3.6 to 2.8 billion years ago.
However if in your mistaken stupidity you were refering to civilization, then i am afraid, it will have to be africa/asia going by current knowledge on the subject.
So with that, let me end with the same trite generalization that you made.
American cars.trucks are cool, Japanese cars are very well engineered. European cars are for poseurs who lack both the skill to drive and the common sense to make a sensible purchase.
reply to this comment
klossfam
- 3/8/2007 2:06:57 PM
0 Boost
That's DEAD ON BMW4me4ever...the IS-F looks like it was designed by some punk tuners that just won the lottery...YIKES! How can such a crisp looking car in normal IS configs be made to look that bad? BMW and Audi IS the real comparo here when the new M3 is ready to roll - even with the added weight of Quattro - it'll come down to whether the extra grip evens out the extra lbs....I'm sure in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile the RS4 is toast...On the design front, Bimmer and Audi do such a better job on the tastefulness scale with their performance variants...I have a 2006 Audi A4 S-line with Quattro...and with the S-line kit it looks better than a "standard" A4, not worse like the IS-F vs. a regular guy IS...
reply to this comment
komododave
- 3/8/2007 2:26:03 PM
+1 Boost
Thats not fear, that a statement, a true one.
reply to this comment
komododave
- 3/8/2007 2:27:04 PM
-5 Boost
thats not fear, thats a statement. A true one.
reply to this comment
komododave
- 3/8/2007 2:31:21 PM
+1 Boost
I'm not really sure how these ended up down here, but disregard these comments...
silverarrow2
- 3/8/2007 2:35:02 PM
-6 Boost
Just on looks alone the Lexus already got his ass spanked!!
reply to this comment
silverarrow2
- 3/8/2007 2:38:02 PM
-1 Boost
That was so dumn, you should look for a cave and crawl back inside.
reply to this comment
silverarrow2
- 3/8/2007 2:40:30 PM
-1 Boost
Don't think so!!
reply to this comment
Willis
- 3/8/2007 2:43:55 PM
+2 Boost
Flozel said: I know and you know (though you won't admit it) that in a short space of time, Lexus will conquer Europe as well as it did the US.
Keep dreaming. This is pure fanboy talk. I hate to take sides but Lexus lacks history compared to the European brands and this is its biggest drawback in a market where image and brand history are very important. Selling a car laden with technology for a "cheap" price won't attract the majority of Europeans.
Look at why Lexus is so successful here. They cater to American values: a lot of car for little money (value-for-money). Sure, this is true in Europe as well, except overthere, they place more emphasis on brand heritage as well.
reply to this comment
mobiustech
- 3/8/2007 3:33:20 PM
-6 Boost
I LOVE that I'm American. As usual, no one is beating down the doors in other countries to get in, and we can appreciate all thingsin the US no matter what part of the globe it's from, yeah we got it like that. That is why the world will always envy the US and I don't say that in arrogance, its a statement of truth. The US isn't perfect, but far from undesirable.
The M3 is a stunning design study, the best I've seen of the M line. The IS is awesome, but doesn't hold a candle to the M in this arena. The IS looks frumpy. I think the V -Series and Audi RS models are the true contenders in this segment. We will see what the CTS-V will have going for it. Car snobs hate the mention of the CTS-V and M3 in the same sentence..
reply to this comment
Anthony
- 3/8/2007 4:01:57 PM
+3 Boost
The IS does not handle poorly. That is a terrible myth and a common figment of Euro fanboys' imaginations around here.
reply to this comment
1995e34
- 3/8/2007 4:04:21 PM
+1 Boost
"very intangible "handling""
handling is about as tangible an attribute in a sports sedan as any.
reply to this comment
mycarishot
- 3/8/2007 4:04:47 PM
-1 Boost
What do you mean how do they compare the two. Lexus has proven to be one of the most innovative car brands in our era! Yes BMW M3 is a great vehicle but the new IS can compete with the likes of BMW M3.
reply to this comment
SenSpeed
- 3/8/2007 4:28:48 PM
-2 Boost
"the real battle is between the F/A-22 fighter and the M3".
I wouldn't count my chickens before they hatch. You should hold off on your prejudice until the verdict is out.
reply to this comment
hkaudi
- 3/8/2007 4:58:52 PM
-2 Boost
second that! IS totally out of it
reply to this comment
rg12345
- 3/8/2007 5:54:58 PM
+1 Boost
Any normal guy out there that is into cars goes for a BMW instead of a lexus. I can also add this: any single girl out there(into cars or not) will go for sure to the guy with the bimmer.
reply to this comment
JTRacer
- 3/8/2007 6:01:27 PM
-4 Boost
Arent both of them over 3500-3600 lbs??
Neither of them would handle well except at street speed just enough to make ppl that spent 60k for them happy. M3s get putting on hundreds of pounds each generation without adding much mm width to their tires. Front tires are getting narrower compare to the rear tires just so that idiots that bought them won't crash and burn.
Better off using either of these cars getting groceries. Want a real sports car buy a Lotus or a Z06.
reply to this comment
BMW4me4ever
- 3/8/2007 6:17:09 PM
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+2 Boost
will you are an idiot. The Is350 lost to the 330 in pretty much every comparison test. Also, the IS350 is not as fast as the 335. I have not seen a single comparison or article that shows that. Get over yourself and realize that lexus doesnt and willnot compete in any performance division., except on " midnight club", need for speed, or anyother fantasy game on playstation
reply to this comment
Designer1
- 3/8/2007 6:32:10 PM
+4 Boost
If you knew about cars you would not have said, the IS handles very poorly. Ford escort handles very poorly and the alike. But the correct saying is, the IS does not have as sporty handling as the 3. Now why Lexus doesn't go after that simple change of sporty handling, that's their business logic. However, everyone knows and agrees that the IS or any other Lexus line compared to its BMW/MB competitor, out runs them all. Each car manufacturer has its own touch and they stick with it. Lexus has excelent quality, reliability and speed. The German counterpart have sporty steering wheel and suspension. Each is a trade mark of that company.
I personally was a German enthusiast before, until all those shitty cars started breaking up left and right. Then when I moved to the Lexus line up, there is not a single car out there that I would trade it in with. This comparison will be very interesting, but remember, speed wise the IS will win, handling wise the 3 will win, so it all depends on the taste of the evaluator, as for which to rank #1 or #2.
reply to this comment
AUDIMAN4
- 3/8/2007 7:21:54 PM
-2 Boost
Well, some of the members here (SexyLexus, Will, renlex) don't WANT the girl to go for them....
reply to this comment
S4cabriofoxone
- 3/8/2007 8:07:43 PM
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+2 Boost
"IS350 was faster than the 330i, and is just as fast as the 335i. The only way the 3-Series comes out on top in every comparison test is the very intangible "handling" (a.k.a. "magic feel")."
I've said this many times...
SPEED ISN'T EVERYTHING.
To counter, the 335i is very well quicker than the IS350. Check your latest road test stats.
But that's irrelevant. What you can't grasp is that HANDLING MATTERS MORE THAN SPEED IN A PERFORMANCE SEDAN. Is it that much of a wonder to you as to why BMWs always win PERFORMANCE tests? They're perfectly balanced. By luxury car standards, the handling is out-of-the-park. They ENGINEER their cars. They just don't stick in a huge engine and a matching transmission. On the contrary, they make their cars as light as possible using the latest weight-saving technologies, and their tried-and-true inline six never fails, at least in the 3 and 5.
Cars can be quite fast, but still suck as performance cars. Look at monstrous vehicles like the Cayenne Turbo S. Scary fast, but it also handles frighteningly. It would tip over if it tried to keep up with an M3 or RS4 through the twisties.
You don't appreciate engineering. Why, is beyond me, Will.
reply to this comment
henbmw
- 3/8/2007 8:50:32 PM
+3 Boost
I agree completely with S4cab. History has been very kind to the m3 and from driving and reviews of the new 3-series, its hard to see why it would be any different now. The m3 will be nothing short of epic and a goal for others to try and come close to.
reply to this comment
henbmw
- 3/8/2007 8:51:11 PM
0 Boost
I agree completely with S4cab. History has been very kind to the m3 and from driving and reviews of the new 3-series, its hard to see why it would be any different now. The m3 will be nothing short of epic and a goal for others to try and come close to.
reply to this comment
delan
- 3/8/2007 8:52:55 PM
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+1 Boost
^My hero!
reply to this comment
delan
- 3/8/2007 8:54:57 PM
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-1 Boost
Damnit..wrong spot.I retract the above statement. Oh for a delete button in these forums
AE86
- 3/8/2007 9:41:59 PM
-1 Boost
Wait for those "intangible" lap times, Will_!!!
reply to this comment
1995e34
- 3/8/2007 9:55:05 PM
+1 Boost
0-60mph speeds hardly define a fast car. and most people can't detect if their car is a tenth of a second quicker to 60mph anyhow. it's the most overrated figure in the automotive industry.
but you sure can feel those butterflies in your stomach when you enter a corner at a speed your car can't handle.
there is no "magic feel" in bmw's. it's actually just the realization that every other passenger car you've ever driven was partly retarded. not that it was a bad car, but that it just didn't communicate like the bimmer did.
you can roll your eyes all you want, as i did before driving one, but get behind the wheel, and you'll feel like a child. a child that was once too stubborn to try something new, then when you finally did, you loved it.
reply to this comment
carfan444
- 3/8/2007 10:44:27 PM
0 Boost
please, Lexus' innovation is a mirage that they have painted for American's that don't have the money for the Ultimate Driving Machine, and can be fooled by a car that is noisy and has risky lines.
reply to this comment
2JZSoarer
- 3/8/2007 11:35:57 PM
-1 Boost
AE86 you need to change your screen name because you are disgracing a legendary car the all mighty Trueno!!
reply to this comment
1995e34
- 3/9/2007 5:02:30 PM
-1 Boost
many ferraris weigh more than that
reply to this comment
AE86
- 3/10/2007 6:20:20 AM
+1 Boost
Kudos for somebody understanding my screen name. Will_ has no idea what an AE86 is.
If you truly appreciate the hatchi roku, you too will understand that the IS-F will not compare in driving dynamics to the new M3.
reply to this comment
AE86
- 3/10/2007 6:23:39 AM
+1 Boost
I am guessing you have not driven an IS?
reply to this comment
AE86
- 3/10/2007 6:24:37 AM
+1 Boost
I am guessing you have not driven an IS? Or if you have, you are comparing its handling to a Camry...
reply to this comment
dlin
- 3/16/2007 8:58:49 PM
+1 Boost
Lexus will beat M3 & RS4 if the suspension is tuned by Lotus. Just check out what they have done for upcoming GT-R.
reply to this comment
Agent63
- 3/8/2007 10:05:42 AM
View My AgentSpace
+14 Boost
Lexus IS-F is a good concept but will it be a HIT? i'm not too sure. The M3 clearly has a lot more heritage than the first timer IS-"F" edition. I also like how the new M3 has a growl like no other. It will definitely sound different from the IS-F. In terms of looks hey that is all subjective so i'm not going to even start with it. The M3 is as expected, very stylish with the typical M3 cues to distinguish from the rest.
My opinion on the IS-F: it looks like a tuner car more than a car from factory. Some may like the riced out look but to others it may be a miss. For me I'll have to judge when I see it. The M3 from pictures point of view is already a winner. The interior could have been more exciting and dramatic but i'm sure the performance will more than make up for it.
-Agent63
reply to this comment
SupraNeverBack
- 3/8/2007 2:04:10 PM
-13 Boost
Yeah, heritage is = performance in your eyes, and the M3's ugly hood looks beautiful too.
Without the ugly hood, the M3 looks as dull as a regular 3 coupe.
tom333
- 3/8/2007 10:16:10 AM
+5 Boost
The RS4 was worth comparing to the e46 M3 but the e92 will be in a class of its own. The IS350 is one hundred percent joke interms of handling braking and so on. Adding power and tacky aesthetics will only further sour the mix.
I know Lexus advertises all over this site but please leave them out of talk about serious sportscars Autospies.
reply to this comment
spiceace
- 3/8/2007 10:23:28 AM
+6 Boost
Can't wait for the comparison to come out.
reply to this comment
Rupert
- 3/8/2007 10:56:33 AM
View My AgentSpace
+7 Boost
"Toyota simply has MORE heritage than BMW when it comes to building high performance cars."
I love the garbage that just spews from your mouth.
reply to this comment
BMW4me4ever
- 3/8/2007 11:35:06 AM
View My AgentSpace
+5 Boost
huh? evo and gt what? Those are performance cars for teenage kids that are trying to re-enact the " midnught club " on their playstation or need for speed. I cant stop laughing ... Hands down that this is the most ridiculous comment ever. I think autospies should post the " top Ten " most ridiculous comments ever .. What are the odds that Ricemaster would win most of them?
reply to this comment
1995e34
- 3/8/2007 11:37:43 AM
+9 Boost
"It outhandled the legendary RX7TT, NSX, Testarossa, Vette. It was the car the Porsche 928gts should've been."
priceless!!!
reply to this comment
1995e34
- 3/8/2007 11:39:32 AM
+9 Boost
"But more important, M3 and IS-F are not sportscars, they're just two fat luxury pigs with stiff shocks/springs. Real driving enthusiasts will wait for the new EVO and GT-R."
he's a poet. a goddamn poet.
reply to this comment
d1sinfo
- 3/8/2007 3:47:55 PM
+6 Boost
You really need to get a grip. Do some reading, and some research. You will see that many Japanese companies emulated German companies in form/function for many years. The attitude of Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Suby is so far from the elitist attitude you hold. I have seen video of the head of Nismo saying his goal was to make Nismo as good as the M Division at BMW. I have read similar statements from other top level execs from major Japanese manufacturers.
If they don't have elitist attitudes then why should you? Learn to appreciate more than just what you know.
Josh
p.s. I am still trying to stomach the looks of the isf. I am sure it will grow on me as all decent design does. I just need to get in tune with its intentions styling wise.
reply to this comment
d1sinfo
- 3/8/2007 3:51:01 PM
-2 Boost
Thats wrong, they were tested in the 90's on several occasions in comparo's. They were both considered sports cars, cost's were comparable, and amenities were as well.
They were also 2 totally different machines.
Josh
reply to this comment
GS450h
- 3/9/2007 10:36:23 AM
+3 Boost
I think you're confusing nationalistic stereotypes with automotive characteristics.
reply to this comment
smshnick
- 3/8/2007 10:53:16 AM
-2 Boost
First of all, the reigning champ right now is the RS4. The IS-F and M3 are still "concept" cars so they're pretty much the figment of someone's imagination. Consider that Lexus has absolutely zero history producing these types of cars. Additionally, consider that BMW has probably made the M5 worse than the previous M5, the same could be true for the next M3.
reply to this comment
answer
- 3/8/2007 11:14:06 AM
View My AgentSpace
+1 Boost
I'll have to double check my crystal ball, but I predict the following:
1- The new M3 still reigns supreme in every single comparison test.
2- The IS-F comes in an amazingly close second place in every single comparison test.
3- Owners of the new M3 or IS-F will both be very, very happy.
reply to this comment
JRobUSC
- 3/8/2007 12:34:07 PM
-3 Boost
I predict the RS4 will battle the M3 for 1st and 2nd in all the tests with the IS-F battling it out with the 450hp C63 for 3rd and 4th. Why? Enthusiast magazines prefer manual transmissions and the Lexus and IS don't have them. The RS4 and M3 will be pretty equally matched I believe, the RS4 having four doors will help it in tests where part of the judging involves rear seat room and the M3 will have an edge where size doesn't matter and price is a factor.
JRobUSC
- 3/8/2007 12:35:57 PM
-2 Boost
sorry, that should have said "the Lexus IS-F and MB C63 won't have manuals"
JRobUSC
- 3/8/2007 5:53:43 PM
+1 Boost
I love getting deboosted just for mentioning the MB and Lexus won't offer a stick. Sorry kids, not my fault, maybe you should deboost Lexus and MB for it.
reply to this comment
S4cabriofoxone
- 3/8/2007 8:11:56 PM
View My AgentSpace
-1 Boost
Boosted you up.
1995e34
- 3/8/2007 11:24:16 AM
+5 Boost
m3 will win, no doubt.
but i like that is-f is a sedan, and doesn't have THAT hood
reply to this comment
SixxFive
- 3/8/2007 11:26:04 AM
-1 Boost
Too early to predict. Visually I prefer the BMW....the design looks more cohesive, the Lexus looks as if the car was designed and then they attempted to make it look agressive with add on's.
reply to this comment
AlexTx
- 3/8/2007 11:30:59 AM
0 Boost
The lack of a manual tranny on the IS-F will "doom" it...
And the need for a 8 speed Auto??
Come on.....just marketing to say...yeah..it has better gas mileage than the M3 or RS4...
reply to this comment
S4cabriofoxone
- 3/8/2007 8:16:19 PM
View My AgentSpace
0 Boost
No, in fact, AMG isn't. They're easily the fastest in every class, but the handling is well below the standards of their M/RS competition. I admire AMG cars and wouldn't dislike owning one, but they're basically poser-mobiles. The new 6.2L is awesome, though.
BMW4me4ever
- 3/8/2007 11:32:40 AM
View My AgentSpace
+4 Boost
I am still laughing at Ricemasters comments. I am amazed he actually could type that without laughing.
reply to this comment
jmrA480
- 3/8/2007 12:12:12 PM
-3 Boost
2nd that , i am still laughing too
Dave
- 3/8/2007 11:48:47 AM
+9 Boost
Let's be fair. This is Lexus's first foray into the high performance sedan segment. BMW has been in this segment for a long time so they already have a super strong reputation. On the other hand, Lexus knew it couldn't come up short with the new IS-F(after the failed L-tuned cars before) and had to develop a winner.
It's relatively easy to predict how the BMW will turn out. The hard part is figuring out how the Lexus will be. We all know the current Lexus offerings have the same shortcomings: numb steering, grabby brakes, floaty suspension, etc....
But the fact is, Lexus has a large of amount of customers who PREFERS that kind of feel. So they prefer to develop standard cars with higher performance, but to still compromise by keeping that 'Lexus element' there for their customers. Now, as I understand, the Lexus IS-F was developed strictly for performance and did not compromise to cater to your typical Lexus customer. The IS-F engineers were given the green light to put performance a top priority.
Therefore, I think it's unfair and probably inaccurate in this case to use what we generally think of Lexus as a reference to predict the new IS-F's capability. That's like using a floaty Infiniti I35(now discontinued) to predict the performance of the new all performance oriented Nissan GT-R. Regular Lexus cars are produced to intentionally create less of a performance feel than BMW's to satisfy a significant group of customers who simply do NOT desire the BMW feel.
But this Lexus should be very different. I am more anxious to see just how the performance oriented IS-F will drive than the BMW which will no doubt be exhilarating, but is already known for high performance.
reply to this comment
d1sinfo
- 3/8/2007 3:53:51 PM
+1 Boost
Wow Dave, what a well written logical piece of information. I only wish other autospies contributors would follow your lead.
Josh
jmrA480
- 3/8/2007 12:01:58 PM
-4 Boost
the c class Amg has always been behind the M3 and S/RS4, why do think it will change now. MB are straight line rockets but cant come close to BMW or Audi in the handling department.
For me its
1-RS4/M3 until the M3's numbers come out, i am not gonna pick between the 2
2-C63-
3-IS-F- the performance might be up to par with the others, but you have to be 15 to like the design
reply to this comment
jmrA480
- 3/8/2007 1:02:26 PM
+1 Boost
Sevorbeupstry-Ypou basically tried to correct me with the same thing i said, just in different words. All i said was the C AGM does not handle as well as the Audi or BMW, Am I wrong? NO!
And stop using this "at least over here they do" crap, stop thinking because you live in europe you know more then people in the US.yes american cars companies suck but that doesnt mean we have no clue about cars. When you say shit like that you look like an Arrogant prick
reply to this comment
jmrA480
- 3/8/2007 1:50:51 PM
+1 Boost
thanks, if you want to talk about how shitty american cars are then fine, i will agree 100%, but this is a car site so its fine, just stop with "the americans are stupid shit", I am an american and i would never think about buying a american or japanese car, i just dont like them.
I am not saying your wrong, there are alot of americans who have no clue, but there are also europeans who have no clue.
reply to this comment
S4cabriofoxone
- 3/8/2007 9:43:19 PM
View My AgentSpace
+1 Boost
Yes, stop stereotyping, please.
It gives me the impression that Europeans are snoots.
I'm not in the mood for your BS.
reply to this comment
1970toyotamarc
- 3/8/2007 11:51:28 AM
+2 Boost
This is going to be annoying for the next year of these posts, pitting 2 cars that havent even come out against each other in every sort of mock up comparo.
For my waste of time 2 cents tho...Nobody wants a manual transmission anymore. The bulging BMW hood is somehow forgiven by German fanboys, while the IS-F hood was ridiculed. Gotta love that. Same with the side skirts, just as tuner spec'ed out as any IS-F vents.
Go ahead and de-boost and flame on. After this comment, I will desperately try to wait until they actually come out before any more comments on these 2 cars.
reply to this comment
jmrA480
- 3/8/2007 12:14:33 PM
-2 Boost
"Nobody wants a manual transmission anymore"- speak for yourself. Thats just a stupid comment
Will_
- 3/8/2007 12:53:13 PM
-2 Boost
Please explain how the Japanese "destroyed" the American automotive industry?
silverarrow2
- 3/8/2007 2:45:45 PM
+4 Boost
Maybe it's the lack of quality that destroyed us(Americans).
reply to this comment
1970toyotamarc
- 3/8/2007 3:34:47 PM
+3 Boost
What does my nationality have to do with anything? I drive Japanese cars, and lived outside of the US for 18 years. As for manual trannies, the numbers speak for themselves, they're not selling. Look at the M5, BMW didnt even want a manual, and when forced to put one in to satisfy the few purists, it was slower and less smooth (no more magic feel). How many Ferraris, Astons and Lambos are sold nowadays with manuals??
So grow up, get your head out of the sand, learn to craft an argument based on facts or at least well-reasoned opinions, and cut out the school yard "stupid" and "retard" b.s.
And, damn, I just broke my vow not to post anymore on this freakin topic until the cars come out. You people bring out the worst in me.
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Kostin
- 3/8/2007 11:56:05 AM
+3 Boost
I'm not usually biased about any brand but with this stupid comparison i am TOTALLY BIASED.Compare the new M3 with the RS4...not with a Lexus.Lexus simply doesen't have the experience to play with the big fellas.
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jmrA480
- 3/8/2007 12:15:58 PM
-1 Boost
100% agree
Will_
- 3/8/2007 12:51:27 PM
+3 Boost
"stupid Americans"
...from a European...
*shocked*
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no1listensanyway
- 3/8/2007 2:34:50 PM
View My AgentSpace
+7 Boost