Think The New 7 Looks A Lot Like The Old One? These Photos Will Really Open Your Eyes.

the new one looks significantly more aggressive in person....especially the front end. the character lines on the side panels are also much stronger. you know it's a 7 immediately, just improved in my opinion.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 6:33:00 PM | | Votes: 2   

It doesn't look like a LS, maybe only rear looks a bit like LS, I don't know where you see similarities, apart from rear rest of the car is completely different from LS in my opinion.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 12:21:15 PM | | Votes: 1   

the only unfortunate resemblance to the LS is from the rear. otherwise, it looks precisely NOTHING like the LS. how many have YOU seen on the road?

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 6:34:15 PM | | Votes: 1   

And I'm not denying for a second that the Industrial Revolution occurred in Britain and spread to western Europe - that's just historical fact. What I am saying is that there would be no industrial revolution in Britain if there wasn't first an advancement in mathematics and as I already pointed out to you the Germans - along with other western European countries like Italy, France and Britain - produced this modern math. Engineers like Thomas Newcomen and James Watt were key people in the development of the industrial revolution in Britain in the early 1700s - are you claiming that they didn't use math?

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 4:46:14 PM | | Votes: 2   

Funny, the LS does not look German at all. However the new 7 does look somewhat Asian.

— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 10:31:42 AM | | Votes: 3   

I too think it look somewhat like the LS but consider this...

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6791/lexusbmw.jpg

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 10:44:18 AM | | Votes: -2   

Still, shame on BMW and whatever non-German they employed to do this LS copying crap.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 10:45:30 AM | | Votes: -5   

TurboSpyder, from where you know it was non-German? You think master race don't do mistakes?

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 12:36:03 PM | | Votes: 5   

It's well known that most of the major designers in the German car companies are non-German. Bangle and Van Hooydonk at BMW, a Turk named Murat Gunak who was the head of group design at VW for a while and a bunch of non-Germans designers at Mercedes. The head of design at VW is currently an Italian (which is great, btw) named Walter de Silva. And abcd, I don't believe the Germans are the master race but I do know that when you go east of Germany things suck really bad - as they always have. And this is in spite of the fact that billions of Euros in aid has poured into that region from taxpayers in countries like Germany, France, Britain, the Netherlands etc.

"The transfer framework for the largest support ever from EU Funds to member states is being finalized this fall. More than € 347 billion will soon be available to the least developed EU member states for 2007-2013. Poland alone will receive € 67 billion. The EU funds will be used for infrastructure investments, supporting innovative companies and promoting environmental and energy technologies."

http://www.ambwarszawa.um.dk/da/servicemenu/Aktuelt/EU27112007.htm

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 3:59:46 PM | | Votes: 0   

TurboSpyder:
"And abcd, I don't believe the Germans are the master race"

Reading your comments like God give Germans more engineering talent I don't think you're sincere here. Yes, there are many non-German designers in German companies but you wrote this like would know that it definitely wasn't German.

"but I do know that when you go east of Germany things suck really bad"

I recently watched TV program about Russian space program and it wasn't sucking. Economic maybe sucks becouse of Communism(like in GDR), but engineering in USSR was at high level.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 4:44:34 PM | | Votes: 3   

Germany is world-renowned for its engineering excellence and has been for a very long time and Russia and the rest of the eastern European societies are world-renowned for being ass backwards (see post below). And the Germans weren't running the show in the GDR so it's foolish for you to keep trying to pretend that they were. Auto Union had leading edge automotive technology in the 1930's and they were based in Saxony which is in Eastern Germany. Hundreds of years ago the Russian Czars had western Europeans come to Russia to build the Kremlin and Churches for them and they employed western Europeans as tutors etc. They were always trying to catch up to the western Europeans and never came close. The Russians were always very good at espionage and stealing military technology - I understand they even got a hold of the full blueprints for the Concorde. Since you're in Eastern Europe maybe you know the answer to this question - is there an Eastern European company that engineers and sells a product that is competitive in the international market place against western and Japanese products?

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 9:05:07 PM | | Votes: 2   

“Putin also laid out a vision of a Russia switching from an ageing and uncompetitive Soviet-era infrastructure to an economy centred on high-tech areas such as nanotechnology, nuclear power and the space industry. 'In conditions of fierce international competition, the country's economic development must be based, essentially, on its scientific and technological advantages,' he said. 'Unfortunately, one has to face that the majority of the technical equipment used in the national economy is not years behind the top level, but decades.' ”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1629956/posts




"Calling a toilet a toilet is easy for the majority of Europeans. But according to the European Commission, more than 20 million people in the European Union call a bush, field or pit latrine their toilet. In Romania, for example, nearly 40 percent of the country's roughly 22 million citizens don't have access to adequate facilities. A similar percentage of Bulgaria's 7 million residents likewise go without safe sanitation. The World Health Organization (WHO) says that number doubles to over 40 million when non-EU nations on the continent like Belarus and Ukraine are taken into account. This lack of sanitation is said to contribute to more than 13,000 deaths and countless illnesses, most occurring in Central and Eastern European."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3580691,00.html

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 9:09:06 PM | | Votes: 1   

“In 1970, a 20-year contract was signed between the Soviet foreign trade ministry and the West German company Ruhrgas for the delivery of gas to the FRG.7 This was part of a much larger arrangement, known as **'gas for pipe'**, by which Soviet gas exports were exchanged for steel pipe deliveries from German manufacturers financed by German banks with credit risks underwritten by a government credit agency.8 Two more import contracts were signed by Ruhrgas in 1972 and 1974 and the West German gas relationship with the Soviet Union began to expand substantially.”

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/3222_jsjan05.pdf



The Drushba pipeline –one of the projects of the century

“They brought Russian natural gas to Germany for the first time: In the Seventies and Eighties, *30,000 Germans* worked on two natural gas pipelines to make the huge natural gas reserves in Russia accessible to German consumers. The basis for these enormous natural-gas infrastructure projects was an agreement covering long-term deliveries of natural gas, which the Soviet Union concluded with other Eastern Bloc countries on 21 April 1974. “

http://www.wingas.de/trassenbau_mit_tradition.html?&L=1

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 9:37:57 PM | | Votes: 1   

TurboSpyder:
I still don't know from where you know that 7 series designer definitely is non-German.

"Germany is world-renowned for its engineering excellence and has been for a very long time[...]Hundreds of years ago the Russian Czars had western Europeans come to Russia to build the Kremlin and Churches for them and they employed western Europeans as tutors etc."

I don't know whether Russians employed western Europeans to build for them Kremlin but Germans did the same, they transferred all the cutting edge, game changing British technologies, innovations from Agricultural revolution to Industrial revolution, that made possible transition from agricultural economy to industrial economy, Germans didn't any game changing innovations before that transfer, without this transfer Germany(and other countries) would be still a agriculural country. So until then Germans did everything like any other pre-industrialized country on the world(and Russia)-acquired British technology. After transfer of British technologies, Germans(and other countries e.g.Russia) started upgrade them and later made own technologies, innovations, discoveries. Most technologies of second industrial revolution were done by Americans, British and Germans(alphabetical order), a while later also Japan world power.

"And the Germans weren't running the show in the GDR so it's foolish for you to keep trying to pretend that they were."

So, you agreed that system in East Germany and Russia and other East block countries has been responsible for bad economy and lack of companies that could be now competitive in international market.

"Auto Union had leading edge automotive technology in the 1930's and they were based in Saxony which is in Eastern Germany."

Yes but this was particularly possible becouse of German government(NSDAP) funding of this company after 1933, British and other European auto companies weren't funded by their governments, before 1933 Auto Union wasn't as advanced compared to other companies. Russians had record setting planes(e.g.Tupolev) at that time.

"The Russians were always very good at espionage and stealing military technology - I understand they even got a hold of the full blueprints for the Concorde."

At espionage they were also good, I don't know whether they had a blueprins of Concorde, I think it isn't proved. Their space program and military technology was often pioneering.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 1:59:57 PM | | Votes: 0   

Correction:
"a while later also Japan world power." --> become world power.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 2:02:36 PM | | Votes: 0   

abcd, Bangle and Van Hooydonk (non-Germans) were the chief designers at BMW so it stands to reason that they were responsible for the styling of the latest 7 series.

Again, I'd like to ask you if you are aware of one eastern European company that engineers a product that is competitive in the international marketplace against Western and Japanese products?

Concerning the rest, it's pretty clear that you're delusional. There is no industry without math and science first.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/584/ahistoryofmathematicskj6.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5598/16thcenturymath1.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3371/16thcenturymath2.jpg (Harriot was British mathematician)

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 2:29:12 PM | | Votes: 2   

"So, you agreed that system in East Germany and Russia and other East block countries has been responsible for bad economy and lack of companies that could be now competitive in international market."


No. The eastern Europeans have never been competitive with the western Europeans under any form of government going back centuries. Not under the Czars, not under communism and not since the fall of the Berlin wall. Germany was bombed to rubble in WWII and by the early 1960's they had rebuilt and had the largest economy in Europe. Such an economic/industrial "miracle" will never happen in eastern Europe.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 2:34:33 PM | | Votes: 2   

TurboSpyder, do you think that mathematics and science was only invented in Europe or Germany? No, also in other parts of world, the most important scientific discoveries came in Europe together with industrial revolution(e.g. thermodynamics laws were discoveried a lot later than a steam engine), before industrial revolution there was mathematics that wasn't applicated for industrial applications(just like for example in China), it was applicated for buildings, ships(also like in China - buildings, Zheng He ships) not to mention that science was accesible only for few peoples, most of the population were farmers.
This were british inventions that changed that pattern.

"Again, I'd like to ask you if you are aware of one eastern European company that engineers a product that is competitive in the international marketplace against Western and Japanese products? "

In automotive industry there isn't any competitive company in Eastern Europe, just like in East Germany(audi is now in Ingolstadt).

"No. The eastern Europeans have never been competitive with the western Europeans under any form of government going back centuries."

Centuries? Wow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth

"Germany was bombed to rubble in WWII and by the early 1960's they had rebuilt and had the largest economy in Europe."

-->Marshall Plan. And laboriousness also ofcourse. And there wasn't economic miracle in east Germany.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 3:07:04 PM | | Votes: 1   

TurboSpyder, there is a massive amount of sources about industrial revolution on internet, look for example here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3697771/Science-Technology-During-Industrial-Revolution

"In 1750 most peoples in Europe lived on small farms and produced most of their needs by hand..."
And here that most scientific discoveries occured well after Industrial revolution began:
"The last half of nineteenth century was a period with experienced rapid progress in science and technology..."

Or here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=2Snn6RuH9x8C
Look at "Why Britain first?"

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 3:42:54 PM | | Votes: 1   

This link is working:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NiVWqSTea8oC

"A History of the European Economy, 1000-2000

Look at:
"Why Britain first?"

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 3:54:46 PM | | Votes: 1   

"In automotive industry there isn't any competitive company in Eastern Europe, just like in East Germany(audi is now in Ingolstadt)."


Any industry in any field - do you know of one?

From a recent Deutsche Welle article:

“In socio-economic terms, eastern Germany has long been straggling behind the western states. But it's catching up fast -- a recent survey deemed Dresden the ninth most dynamic city in the country, while the latest national PISA assessment presented in Berlin on Tuesday, Nov. 18, showed that Saxony's secondary school students are outperforming their peers across Germany.
 
“PISA-E is the national equivalent to the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), the triennial worldwide test of 15-year-old schoolchildren's scholastic performance implemented by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Its aim is to test and compare schoolchildren's performance across the world, with a view to improving educational methods and outcomes.
 
“International comparisons
 
“The third to have been conducted since 2000, the latest PISA-E study polled 57,000 15-year-olds in 1,500 schools across the country and concentrated on testing knowledge in natural sciences, mathematics and literacy.
 
“Saxony came out top in every discipline in the 2006 study.”

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3801926,00.html

-

"Centuries? Wow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth"

From your Wikipedia link:

"After the period of unparalleled power and greatness in the 16th century Europe, the Commonwealth went by the middle of 17th century into a period of protracted political,[9][17] military and economic[18] decline that lasted into 1795, when its existence was extinguished by growing absolutist neighbors: Austria, Prussia and Russia."


So they were done by around 1650? 2009-1650 = 359 years which IS centuries.

-

"-->Marshall Plan. And laboriousness also ofcourse. And there wasn't economic miracle in east Germany."


Germany wasn't the only country in Europe to get money in the Marshal plan. And as I already pointed out to you Poland and the other new EU member countries have also gotten tens of billions of dollars since they joined the EU and there is no economic miracle there (unless you consider the factories that VW and other companies built there). The eastern Germans in the GDR didn't get uncompetitive overnight - they were being ruled by Slavs whose own societies have been completely backwards and uncompetitive for centuries as I have already shown you.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 4:34:58 PM | | Votes: 2   

I'm not denying for a second that the Industrial Revolution occurred in Britain and spread to western Europe - that's just historical fact. What I am saying is that there would be no industrial revolution in Britain if there wasn't first an advancement in mathematics and as I already pointed out to you the Germans - along with other western European countries like Italy, France and Britain - produced this modern math. *Engineers* like Thomas Newcomen and James Watt were key people in the development of the industrial revolution in Britain in the early 1700s - are you claiming that they didn't use math?

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 4:50:04 PM | | Votes: 2   

Quote from the book "A History of the European Economy, 1000-2000", page 113:
"Even though inventors came from the whole spectrum of British society, and some (like the Reverend Edmund Cartwright) belonged to the ruling elite, a large majority were from a middle-class background. They were brilliant tinkerers with a willingness to experiment. Their approach was both empirical-intuitive and scientific, as some scientific culture had percolated downward in society (through books, magazines, lectures, and learned societies), *** even though relations between "science" and industry only became intense in the late nineteenth century *** (except in the case of the chemical industry)."

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 4:59:48 PM | | Votes: 1   

TurboSpyder, maybe British engineers used some part of German mathematics, but was this mathematic that advanced then, was it more advanced than mathematics in e.g. China or Japan(I choose china becouse I read and heard that their mathematics, astronomy, alchemy was quite advanced at some time). The most important was invention of calculus, I know that Leibniz invented the calculus but as did Newton, and there was controversary whether Leibniz was inspired by Newton's work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_v._Leibniz_calculus_controversy

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 5:23:06 PM | | Votes: 1   

TurboSpyder:
"(unless you consider the factories that VW and other companies built there). The eastern Germans in the GDR didn't get uncompetitive overnight - they were being ruled by Slavs whose own societies have been completely backwards and uncompetitive for centuries as I have already shown you."

So, what factories are being build in east Germany. You say that they were uncompetitive becouse they were being ruled by Slavs, I think they weren't ruled by Slavs, they had also their own engineers and also couldn't used them becouse of the system. You can't prove your claim and I my so lets stay on this.
Poland economic growth:
http://polandeconomy.blogspot.com/2008/01/poland-gdp-2007.html

And lowly Slavs could even develop multi-stage rocket(look at Kazimierz Siemienowicz):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Culture

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 5:50:15 PM | | Votes: 1   

"... I think they weren't ruled by Slavs, they had also their own engineers and also couldn't used them becouse of the system."

Are you kidding?


And do you remember that quote that I gave you from Putin where he said that the Russians have to face the fact that their equipment isn't years out of date but decades? The Chinese have been buying tens of billions of dollars of Russian weapons and technology each year for many years now because the Russian stuff looks leading edge compared to what the Chinese can do on their own. I don't know much about Chinese mathematics but the Muslims were only able to solve quadratic equations (equations of degree two) and when the Europeans started to really study algebra they (the Italians) were soon able to solve cubic and quartic equations and the Europeans very quickly left the rest of the world behind in math and science.


It's not surprising that the Polish economy grew quickly considering where they started from and how many billions of Euros were transferred from the Western European tax payers to the Eastern European countries. And I bet that factory wages in countries like Poland and Slovakia are considerably less than they are in Eastern Germany and that's why VW and so many other companies built factories there.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 10:34:33 PM | | Votes: 2   

From a Der Spiegel article from June 2008:

"DIHK chief Martin Wansleben told the Leipziger Volkszeitung that he expects growth in eastern Germany to hover around 4.5 percent for the year. For Germany as a whole, that number will be closer to 2.3 percent, DIHK economists forecast. Wansleben told the paper that **the manufacturing sector was responsible for eastern Germany's positive performance**.

"Indeed, a recent study completed by the Initiative for New Social and Market Economy together with the business weekly Wirtschaftwoche found that the economies in eastern German states are among the most dynamic in Germany. The study took a variety of economic, structural and social factors into consideration and, though Hamburg came out on top, Mecklenburg-Lower Pomerania was second on the list. Brandenburg, Saxony and Berlin, likewise in eastern Germany, were also in the top half of the list.

"The recent good news from Germany's east is just the latest sign that the economically struggling region may be finding its feet. Even as the eastern German economy expanded rapidly following 1990 reunification, it swooned from 1996 to 2005. For the last three years, however, eastern German employment has risen and the region has, particularly in manufacturing, made huge strides. The turnabout comes after years of stagnation and migration of young workers to the western part of the country. Now, according to Wansleben, eastern German industry plans to hire more workers than their western counterparts in 2008.

"Partly as a result of the eastern German improvements, the EU thinks that the German economy could become the 'locomotive of Europe' once again."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,560152,00.html

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 10:58:22 PM | | Votes: 2   

TurboSpyder:
"Are you kidding?"

No. So, if East Germans were ruled by Slavs than West Germans were ruled by US. It's the same logic.

"What I am saying is that there would be no industrial revolution in Britain if there wasn't first an advancement in mathematics and as I already pointed out to you the Germans - along with other western European countries like Italy, France and Britain - produced this modern math. *Engineers* like Thomas Newcomen and James Watt..."

TurboSpyder, I'm saying about pre-industrial math, not modern. I don't know what mathematic Newcomen used but I doubt he used any sophisticated mathematic at all becouse connections between science and industry only became intense in the late nineteenth century(see my link and quote above, or read "Why Britain first?" from the book), there wasn't yet thermodynamics laws, Raoult's laws,... and without this science(the laws) mathematic is impractical in that case. He could use Newton developments, before Newton's calculus I doubt there was more sophisticated mathematic in Europe than in other countries in the World(in specific time in other countries) although I'm don't know that for sure. Still, mathematic without practical applications is useless.

"The Chinese have been buying tens of billions of dollars of Russian weapons and technology each year for many years now because the Russian stuff looks leading edge compared to what the Chinese can do on their own."

TurboSpyder, Chinese current situation has nothing to do wih our theme, and I'm surprized that China was buying Soviet military equipment becouse it was first-rate until collapse of Soviet Union, now Russia doesn't spend that much on military but still their weapons are among best: examples: one of most manoeuvrable fighters- Su-35, one of the best strategic bomber- Tupolev Tu-160 Blackjack, ...
Coming back to Chinese and their pre-industrial math and science compared to pre-industrial European:
Chinese using than their math and science were also capable to do oceanic ships(Zheng He ships) and all the buildings like pre-industrial Europeans.

"and the Europeans very quickly left the rest of the world behind in math and science."

Yes, to be more exact, in 19th century, after Industrial revolution, look at my previous link.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 10:11:50 AM | | Votes: 1   

"So, if East Germans were ruled by Slavs than West Germans were ruled by US. It's the same logic."


You're delusional. Did the Americans build a wall around West Germany to keep the population from fleeing?

From Wikipedia

"The Prague Spring was a period of political liberalization in Czechoslovakia during the era of its domination by the Soviet Union after World War II. It began on January 5, 1968, when reformist Slovak Alexander Dubcek came to power, and continued until August 21, when the Soviet Union and members of its Warsaw Pact allies invaded the country to halt the reforms.

"The Prague Spring reforms were an attempt by Dubcek to grant additional rights to the citizens in an act of partial decentralization of the economy and democratization. Among the freedoms granted were a loosening of restrictions on the media, speech and travel. Dubcek also federalized the country into two separate republics; this was the only change that survived the end of the Prague Spring.

"***The reforms were not received well by the Soviets who, after failed negotiations, sent thousands of Warsaw Pact troops and tanks to occupy the country.*** A large wave of emigration swept the nation. While there were many non-violent protests in the country, including the protest-suicide of a student, there was no military resistance. Czechoslovakia remained occupied until 1990."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring



"The Hungarian Revolution of 1956 was a spontaneous nationwide revolt against the Stalinist government of Hungary and its Soviet-imposed policies, lasting from 23 October until 10 November 1956.[4]

"The revolt began as a student demonstration which attracted thousands as it marched through central Budapest to the Parliament building. A student delegation entering the radio building in an attempt to broadcast its demands was detained. When the delegation's release was demanded by the demonstrators outside, they were fired upon by the State Security Police (ÁVH) from within the building. The news spread quickly and disorder and violence erupted throughout the capital.

"The revolt spread quickly across Hungary, and the government fell. Thousands organized into militias, battling the State Security Police (ÁVH) and Soviet troops. Pro-Soviet communists and ÁVH members were often executed or imprisoned, as former prisoners were released and armed. Impromptu councils wrested municipal control from the ruling Hungarian Working People's Party, and demanded political changes. The new government formally disbanded the ÁVH, declared its intention to withdraw from the Warsaw Pact and pledged to re-establish free elections. By the end of October, fighting had almost stopped and a sense of normality began to return.

"After announcing a willingness to negotiate a withdrawal of Soviet forces, the Politburo changed its mind and moved to crush the revolution. ***On 4 November, a large Soviet force invaded Budapest and other regions of the cou

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 1:39:15 PM | | Votes: 2   

***On 4 November, a large Soviet force invaded Budapest and other regions of the country. Hungarian resistance continued until 10 November. Over 2,500 Hungarians and 700 Soviet troops were killed in the conflict, and 200,000 Hungarians fled as refugees. Mass arrests and denunciations continued for months thereafter. By January 1957, the new Soviet-installed government had suppressed all public opposition.*** These Soviet actions alienated many Western Marxists, yet strengthened Soviet control over Central Europe, cultivating the perception that communism was both irreversible and monolithic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 1:40:08 PM | | Votes: 2   

abcd, in the air war over the Balkans in the nineties the Yugoslav air force sent up some MIG 29s to intercept U.S. fighters and the result was that the MIGs were blown out of the night sky. They didn't have a chance.

I would like to ask you for a third time - are you aware of even one eastern European company that sells an engineered product that is competitive in the international marketplace against western and Japanese products? I'm not aware of any but you're over there so I thought you might know of one.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 1:47:08 PM | | Votes: 2   

"You're delusional. Did the Americans build a wall around West Germany to keep the population from fleeing?"

No, but TurboSpyder, not only East Germany was under military control of Soviets, also Poland and other countries, but specifically that was becouse of the Communism system that was imposed on these countries by Soviets that today these countries(eastern Germany and other countries of Communism block) haven't almost any companies producing world-class engineered products. And US imposed democratic system on West Germany, don't they?

"I would like to ask you for a third time - are you aware of even one eastern European company that sells an engineered product that is competitive in the international marketplace against western and Japanese products? I'm not aware of any but you're over there so I thought you might know of one."

OK, so one example:
Russian PROTON rocket engineered by Khrunichev and used for commercial launches:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_heavy_lift_launch_systems

Now your turn, one from eastern Germany.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 2:45:08 PM | | Votes: 1   

"Korolev R-7 Rocket Leads The Field For Reliability":
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Korolev_R_7_Rocket_Leads_The_Field_For_Reliability_999.html

[Quote]
Anatoly Perminov, head of Russia's Federal Space Agency (Roskosmos), has said that in 2006 Russia accounted for 47% of all launches carried out in the world. Adding to those the launches under the international Sea Launch program, which uses the Ukrainian-Russian Zenit rocket, the figure will climb to over 50%.[...]Observers agree that today Russia holds very advantageous positions both in orbiting individual spacecraft and in deploying multi-satellite constellations as part of international and commercial programs.
[/Quote]

"Deconstructing the “Top 100”":
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/33/1

[Quote]
The effect of that dominance persists to this day: while von Braun’s rocket designs have been consigned to museums, Korolev’s R-7 “Semyorka”, which launched Sputnik over 45 years ago, continues in use to this day in only slightly modified versions as the Soyuz and Molniya rockets.
[/Quote]

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 3:40:23 PM | | Votes: 1   

There is no East Germany anymore. And did you read the information I gave you above that said that Eastern Germany had a higher growth rate than the rest of Germany and that Saxony had the highest math and science scores of all states?


“PISA-E is the national equivalent to the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), the triennial worldwide test of 15-year-old schoolchildren's scholastic performance implemented by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Its aim is to test and compare schoolchildren's performance across the world, with a view to improving educational methods and outcomes.

“International comparisons

“The third to have been conducted since 2000, the latest PISA-E study polled 57,000 15-year-olds in 1,500 schools across the country and concentrated on testing knowledge in natural sciences, mathematics and literacy.

“Saxony came out top in every discipline in the 2006 study.”

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3801926,00.html



Here's some more information about eastern Germany today


"Germany tops the world's solar technology league with the east of the
country benefiting the most from this industry of the future

"The solar technology industry is booming and Germany leads the world in the sector. The home of this young industry is in the east of the country. It's an example of how good industrial policy can make a
positive difference.

"In the last few years Germany has become the world's leading nation in the solar technology sector. The industry is concentrated in the east of the country where government subsidies amounting to billions have helped to create a sector with a bright future. Local companies such as SolarWorld, ErSol and Conergy are planning to expand and increase their workforces but companies from abroad are also considering investing in the region.

"2005 Germany passed Japan to take the number one position in the sector. At the moment 35,000 people are employed in the solar industry sector and that number is likely to rise. «A large number of those
people are based in the states that were once the former East Germany, Carsten Koernig of the German association of solar companies says. The association says it expects double­digit growth figures in the sector in the coming years. The order books for most solar companies are full for the coming months."

http://www.yearofscience.org/uploads/documents/Germany%20tops%20the%20world%27s%20solar%20technology%20league.pdf

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:05:41 PM | | Votes: 2   

From Wikipedia:

[Quote]
In 1945, Korolyov was awarded the Badge of Honor, his first decoration, for his work on the development of rocket motors for military aircraft. The same year he was commissioned into the Red Army, with a rank of colonel. Along with other experts, he flew to Germany to recover the technology of the German V-2 rocket. The Soviets placed a priority on reproducing lost documentation on the V-2, and studying the various parts and captured manufacturing facilities. That work continued in Germany until late 1946, when the Soviet experts and some 150[8] German scientists and engineers were sent to Russia. Most of the German experts, with the exception of Helmut Gröttrup, were those involved in wartime mass-production of V-2, and they had never worked directly with Wernher von Braun, while the leading German rocket scientists, including Dr. von Braun himself, surrendered to Americans and were transported to the United States as part of Operation Paperclip.

Stalin had decided to make rocket & missile development a national priority, and a new institute was created for the purpose, the NII-88 in the suburbs of Moscow. For the German engineers, Branch 1 of NII-88 was set up on Gorodomlya Island some 200 km from Moscow. The facility was surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards, however Boris Chertok, chief designer of guidance and control systems, notes in his book Rockets and People,

All structures on Gorodomlya island were renovated and living conditions were quite decent for those times. At least, married specialists received separate two- or three-room apartments. Visiting the island, I could only envy them, because I and my family lived in Moscow in a shared four-room apartment, where we had two rooms of 24 square meters (260 sq.ft.) combined. Many of our specialists and workers lived in barracks without most elementary necessities. [...] This is why life on the island behind barbed wire could not compare at all to prisoner of war conditions.[9]

Development of ballistic missiles was put under the military control of Dimitri Ustinov, with Korolyov serving as a chief designer of long-range missiles. Korolyov demonstrated his organizational abilities in this new facility, keeping a dysfunctional and highly-compartmentalized organization operating.

With the blueprints reproduced, thanks in part to disassembled V-2 rockets, the team now began producing a working replica of the rocket. This was designated the R-1, and was first tested in October 1947. A total of eleven were launched, with five hitting the target. This was comparable to the German success rate, and demonstrated the unreliability of the rocket. The Soviets continued to utilize the expertise of the Germans on V-2 technology for some time, however in the regime of secrecy surrounding the ballistic missile program Gröttrup and his team had no access to classified work of their Russian colleagues on new rocket technology as well as adequate production an

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:16:50 PM | | Votes: 2   

That why I said *eastern* Germany. Yes I read but you were asking for company, so we should be exact.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:17:52 PM | | Votes: 1   

Correction:
That --> That's

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:19:31 PM | | Votes: 1   

continued...

adequate production and testing facilities. This made impossible any meaningful further work and negatively affected the morale of the German team. In 1950 Ministry of Defence made an official decision to stop any work related to long-range rockets in the German team and repatriate the German engineers and their families. The first group was sent to Germany in December 1951, and the last in November 1953.[10]
[/Quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Korolyov#Ballistic_missiles

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:19:55 PM | | Votes: 2   

Early Russian jet technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBnlJ0GzFvw



Russian assault rifle technology:

February 17 16:09

"Famous Soviet arms builder Mihail Kalasnikov recently acknowledged he didn't worked alone at the design and development of the AK-47 assault rifle, but he benefited from the help of Hugo Schmeisser, the most prolific small arms inventor of the Third Reich. Kalashnikov and Schmeisser meet each other at the small arms factory of Izhevsk, writes Life.ru as quoted by Agerpress, the Romanian national news agency.

"According to the Russian historian Aleksei Korobeinikov, Schmeisser arrived in Ijhevsk immediately after the war. The city of Suhl, Schmeisser's hometown in defeated Germany, was situated in the Soviet occupation zone. Schmeisser and another couple of dozens German small arms specialists received from the Soviet occupiers an offer they 'couldn't refuse': to work at a Soviet small arms factory in the Urals. How the Soviets were making these types of 'generous offers' after the war isn't a secret for anyone anymore. So as a result of the Soviet 'proposal' a train with German specialists arrived at Izhevs on October 24th 1946. Together with Schmeisser and his colleagues, the train carried all the blue prints and plans the Soviets could grab from their occupation zone. Truth be told, the Western Allies did exactly the same thing."

http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot.com/2009/02/michail-kalashnikov-admits-german-help.html

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:23:46 PM | | Votes: 2   

Russian motorcycle technology:

"The Ural story begins in 1939, during the USSR's pre-World War II planning. Despite the Molotov/von Ribbentrop Pact, the Soviet Union knew it would soon be going to war against Adolf Hitler, the ruthless dictator of the German Third Reich. Joseph Stalin ordered the military to prepare all areas of operation, including the ground forces that would defend the Russian motherland against invading German Panzers, ground troops, and Special Forces. Having seen the effects of the Blitzkrieg against the Polish Army, mobilization was of paramount importance to the USSR.

"A meeting was held at the USSR Defense Ministry to discuss what motorcycle model was most suitable for the Red Army. The Army had wanted to modernize its equipment after termination of the military conflict with Finland, as the motorcycles it had been using had not worked satisfactorily. Their technology was out-dated and the manufacturing quality left much to be desired.

"The official version reads that, after long discussion and debate, the BMW R71 motorcycle was decided to most closely match the Red Army's requirements. Five units were covertly purchased through intermediaries in neutral Sweden and smuggled to Russia. Soviet engineers in Moscow busily dismantled the 5 BMWs. They copied every detail of the BMW design and made moulds and dies to produce their own engines and gearboxes in Moscow. Everything about the bike was reverse engineered. Early in 1941, the first trial samples of M-72 motorcycles were shown to Stalin, who immediately approved production of the motorcycles.

"(Incidentally, one of these original BMWs survives and is on display at the factory museum. Harley-Davidson also copied the BMW design, and delivered about 1,000 Harley-Davidson XA (Experimental Army) flat-twin shaft drive motorcycles to the US Army during World War II. Meanwhile, in Japan, Riyushko was busy copying Harley-Davidson V twins!)"

http://www.imz-ural.com/factory/

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/24/2009 4:28:34 PM | | Votes: 1   

TurboSpyder, it's pretty funny how selective you are when you copy paste from wikipedia that Korolyov *early* rockets where developed from von Brown's V-2 but you don't mention that von Brown's V-2 rockets were largely based on Robert Goddard inventions:

from wikipedia:
"Before 1939, German scientists occasionally contacted Goddard directly with technical questions. Wernher von Braun used Goddard's plans from various journals and incorporated them into the building of the Aggregat (A) series of rockets. The A-4 rocket is the well known V-2.[...] A V2 crashed in Sweden and was sent to an Annapolis lab where Goddard was doing research for the Navy. Goddard recognized many components which he had invented and realized his brain child had been turned into a weapon."

And another example of selectivity from your own link:
http://www.imz-ural.com/factory/

"A more likely story is that the BMW factory supplied the construction drawings and casting moulds. As a result of the Molotov / Ribbentrop Pact, transfers of technology had taken place in support of their Soviet "friends" in different areas. Soviet engineers toured German aircraft factories and brought back complete cannons as samples. The OPEL Kadett was given to the Soviets just prior to the war"

About japanese motocycle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikuo_Motorcycles_-_Japan

"under license and name of Harley Davidson using their tooling"

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/25/2009 9:40:47 AM | | Votes: 1   

"Before 1939, German scientists occasionally contacted Goddard directly with technical questions..."


Fine, so who else had anything close to a functioning missile like the V2 in WWII? What kind of rockets did the Russians have or the Americans or the British? They had nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld7Ru7sx2wA&feature=related


What would the Russians do without oil money today? The Soviets didn't have the technical ability to build their own pipeline in the 1970's so they got the Germans to build it for them in the "Pipe for Oil" program. Even today the Russians are totally lame - when their most advanced nuclear submarine, Kursk, sank they weren't able to raise it on their own so they got a Dutch company to do it for them. Face it, abcd, when it comes to science and engineering the Germans and other western Europeans get an A+ and the Slavs get a D.

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/25/2009 10:56:13 AM | | Votes: 1   

"And another example of selectivity from your own link"

The information you quoted just further confirms my point that Slav engineering sucks and most of what they do have that was competent was based on someone else's designs and technology.


For a current example:

High-Speed Train to Fly to Moscow in Three Hours


"MOSCOW - By 2008, the fastest way to fly from Moscow to St. Petersburg will be by train - three hours from city center to city center.

"With the wheels greased by the countries' top leaders last December, Russian Railways, or RZD, and Germany's Siemens Transportation Systems expect to drum up a deal as early as next month that will make a 250- kilometer-per-hour train a reality.

"**Western engineering** and Russian production will adapt Germany's high-speed InterCity Express trains to fit Russia's wider tracks."

continued...

“RZD's pending contract with Siemens will be the final step for Russia's own high-speed train. The Sokol prototype was built at the Transmash plant in the Leningrad region and was to enter service in 2002, but the project was abandoned after being deemed unfit for high-speed use on Russian tracks.

“ 'By choosing Siemens, we recognize that our technology is lagging behind,' said Igor Nikolayev, an expert with the FBK consulting firm.
'And RZD is right not to be waiting for our own technology to develop. **Borrowing** is a wise move.'

“Nikolayev said that the RZD-Siemens contract will be a winning deal for both parties.

'**Siemens seems to be ready to transfer technology**, and while the Western European market has limitations, Russia offers new opportunities for the company to supply its product,' he said.

“ 'RZD's experience with Russian plants has been negative. The plants simply do not have the technology to make these trains of aluminum alloys,' said Yevgeny Konovalov, head of the consulting department at Business Systems Development, an RZD adviser.”

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=3096

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/25/2009 11:14:19 AM | | Votes: 1   

"Fine, so who else had anything close to a functioning missile like the V2 in WWII? What kind of rockets did the Russians have or the Americans or the British? They had nothing."

TurboSpyder, I'm not downgrading von Brown's work but this my response to your downgrading of Russian space program and rockets. If you didn't downgrade Russians obvious achievements in rocket technology I would not downgrade German's obvious leadership in WW2 in rocket technology. And Robert Goddard was American and yes, he was doing rockets to your surprize, there are many sources in Internet so I will not take place on unnecessary citations. Now I can now ask a question in the same pattern as yours - So who else has built as succesful rocket as R-7 and many other succesful rockets to this day? What kind of rockets did the Germans have at the times of Goddard rockets? You don't must to answer becouse I know answers. Isn't this easier to give credit where it's due, to von Brown's rockets and to Russian rockets insdead to trying to deny and to downgrade EVERYTHING? And I have never said that Russian engineering is better than Western overall, but in rocket technology it is deffinitely as I showed in my answer to YOUR question about one eastern Europe company with competitive products.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/25/2009 12:51:59 PM | | Votes: 1   

You bring out the worst in me, abcd. Sometime I feel like I'm kicking a puppy when it comes to debating with you. Anyway, one last thing:

From Wikipedia:

Ariane 5 Rocket

Capacity
Payload to Low Earth Orbit G: 16,000 kg
ES: 21,000 kg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5




Soyuz-FG/Fregat (latest of the R-7 rockets I could find)

Capacity
Payload to Low Earth Orbit 7,800 kg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R-7_launches_(2005-2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz-FG

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/25/2009 1:10:25 PM | | Votes: 1   

"You bring out the worst in me, abcd. Sometime I feel like I'm kicking a puppy when it comes to debating with you."

Don't you like the facts baseed on respected sources(like book for example)? It's hard to debate with you on facts becouse it's always ending on Germans vs rest of the world.

— abcd (View Profile)

Posted on 2/25/2009 1:44:39 PM | | Votes: 1   

the rear is similar...and that's where all similarity ENDS. side, front, interior--no resemblance. and certainly nothing similiar to the LS in terms of ride, handling and power. the LS drives like a sofa on wheels. a friend of mine had the 460L as a rental right now while his BMW is in the body shop and one has no feeling when driving the bouncy thing.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 6:37:16 PM | | Votes: -1   

AutoSpies.com has the highest readership of auto prosumers in market for luxury cars and readers are researching cars more and more on the internet before they buy.

So THEY care about getting the most information/photos because any smart person does their research before the drop 100 g's.

We photograph and cover EVERY manufacturer's luxury cars the same when we're invited to their events.

I'm a stickler for ALL the details and as a consumer myself I always find it hard to get the info I'm looking for.

It's one of the reason I started the site because no one else goes to this level of detail.

In other words...It ALL matters!

001

— Agent001 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 12:19:23 PM | | Votes: 0   

It looks better from all angles EXCEPT the grille - which is as ugly as hell, and because that's the face of the car, it messed the whole car up. The headlights are not that special either. Otherwise, it is an amazing vehicle!

— Freude (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 10:14:13 AM | | Votes: 0   

um...no.

how it drives, rides, handles, steering, comfort, power, features, technology--and of course, looks. these are the things that matter to someone spending $100k on a car (which is what a well-optioned 7 costs).

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 2/22/2009 6:31:52 PM | | Votes: -1   

huu, why do you dismiss the "magic feel"? Enthusiasts and car magazine editors have recognized it for decades.

"Turn Your Hymnals to 2002"

http://www.caranddriver.com/content/download/107218/1454276/version/1/file/BMW+2002+%28Apr+%2768%29.pdf

— TurboSpyder (View Profile)

Posted on 2/23/2009 11:20:16 AM | | Votes: 3