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Third party lithium-ion battery pack gets 150 MPG out of a Prius?

Agent001 submitted on 10/20/2007 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 10:40:59 PM

38 user comments | Category: Spy Shots | Source: | SOURCE: www.tgdaily.com

Tag Links: Battery, Prius, MPG, Engadget

Ontario (CA) – A new lithium-ion battery pack for the Toyota Prius may not lower gas prices, but it promises to make trips to the gas station less frequent – a lot less frequent.

Made by Hymotion and A123 Systems - the same folks that brought you the batteries in the Killacycle – this aftermarket kit converts the car into a plug-in hybrid and allows it to run on electric power for the first forty miles of a trip. As you can expect, total gas mileage goes through the roof and company executives claim drivers can easily exceed 150 miles-per-gallon in the city and 100 MPG on the highways.

Thanks to Engadget for the tipoff

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Third party lithium-ion battery pack gets 150 MPG out of a Prius?

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Now.. This Is News!
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 10/20/2007 10:59:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

Yeah, but will the electricity used to charge it not cost more than gas in a comperable Prius?
— adamsaf723 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/20/2007 11:33:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

read the article.

at the nat'l avg of $0.11/kwh, it will only cost about $3.31 for an electricity "fill-up."

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 12:29:08 AM | | Votes: 6

Wow, amazing! I hope this reaches production.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 12:42:27 AM | | Votes: 2

Assuming your numbers are correct, and I have no reason to refute them, then it's about the same as running the car on just gas. If you plug in your car for $3.31 a fill up, that's about the same price as 1 to 1.3 gallons of gas, which is equivalent to 30-40 miles in a car like the Corolla. And 40 miles is what the article says the charge gives. I think this is what Adams was after.

I'm curious as to how much SOx, NOx and COx that many KWh emits at the powerplant. Probably not as much as running gas in a car...but we're also taxing an often-maxed electric grid.

Interesting article tho...good stuff, just a little pricey.
— budfrogS4 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 1:37:04 PM | | Votes: 3

Here’s the deal. Charging the battery costs an average of 75 cents, according to Hymotion’s website (www.hymotion.com/products.htm). This battery will get you 40-50 miles for that 75 cents. Assuming your daily commute is 40-50 miles or more, let’s assume that the battery is worth essentially a gallon of gas. At $3/gallon, your savings will net $2.25 each day. With 250 commutes per year, you’ll save $562.50 each year, not including weekends, multi-charge days, etc. This will probably never offset the $9,000 cost of the system, but you have to admit it is extremely cool.
— t_bone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 5:49:22 PM | | Votes: 3

it's been said, hybrid technology are still on the upward slope of a long learning/development curve. ditto the latest in batteries.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/20/2007 11:35:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Do you lose your trunk though?
— Agent004 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 12:46:04 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

The engineer dude said no trunk lost in the video.
— Brembo (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 10:12:02 AM | | Votes: 3

Excellent - except the price is !!!!! $9500$ !!!!!
Much more expensive than getting a simple clean diesel engine
— Monk (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 12:56:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

There is no such thing as CLEAN DIESEL

Cleaner Diesels than before, Yes. Clean Diesel no.
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 11:06:44 AM | | Votes: 1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt bluetec emit far more NoX than gasoline engines?
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 10/22/2007 8:20:16 AM | | Votes: 2

that electrical energy isn't free (it might be cheap, but it certainly isn't energy that comes out of nowhere) real calculations the mpg would drop much higer with electricity to gas conversion
— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 1:03:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Stop all your bitching and whinning, just give Toyota credit for trying to make the Prius even better.

Imagine if this was a German car, you would see post that would said what marvel piece of engineering. And only the German would come with something like this.

Good Job Toyota and keep up the good work, unreal........
— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 1:40:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -7

It's not Toyota that's making the Prius better. It's Hymotion and A123 Systems. Give credit to them. They also made the battery for other hybrid such as the Ford escape and Honda civic.
— maikoazu (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 2:39:52 AM | | Votes: 8

On average Lithium-Ion battery packs lose 20% of their capaticy every year. Even when turned off.

They explode too, you know.
— SevorbeupstryIsBack (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 4:35:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5

The fine print is that these A123 cells are the more advanced lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) cells that are much more resistant to heat-related damage. The exploding lithium batteries (often found in laptops, cell phones, etc.) are the lithium-cobalt-oxide (LiCO2) composition (also used in the Tesla Roadster – Tesla had to add a cooling mechanism to counter LiCO2’s heat-related problems).

Imagine taking a Prius and removing the ICE while adding several banks of these A123 cells in the place of the ICE. You’d have a 200+ mile range pure electric vehicle! The disadvantage is cost – LiFePO4 is new and expensive, but cost is decreasing with volume.

And for you tree huggers out there, lithium is common, as is iron phosphate, while cobalt is NOT common (you have to mine a lot of earth to get it, and it is predominantly mined in China).

So now the top two worldwide manufacturers are showing interest in A123 – Toyota (Prius) and GM (Chevy Volt).
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 12:52:15 PM | | Votes: 4

Ya, I'm not quite sure why they went with Lithium-Ion and not Lithium-Polymer. LiPo batteries discharge safer at a higher discharge rate, plus they are lighter and made of a gel.
— Agent004 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 6:47:44 PM | | Votes: 1

More expensive. That's always why.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/23/2007 7:05:36 PM | | Votes: 1

I'm sure someone will complain that you lose the use of the spare tire.

I wonder if this could be merely "plug and go" with a Camry-Hybrid?

A123 is old news, but it's nice to finally see them showoff a production system. Looks like they lived up to all the hype.

3-6hr charge time. Go to sleep, wake up, you're good to go. Heck, it could be done in the same amount of time it takes to watch a hockey game.

A worse case scenario for real world numbers would still probably be 125/75mpg which is still outstanding. I'm sure the emissions would drop even further.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 1:23:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Good point, the vehicle efficiency is only part of the energy equation:

Typical vehicle efficiencies (“tank-to-wheel”):
Gasoline (petrol) engine: 19%
Diesel engine: 26%
Battery-electric: 90%

What’s often missing is the “well-to-tank” efficiencies (or what it costs to get the gas/diesel/electricity):
Crude-to-gasoline: 80%
Crude-to-diesel: 83%
Coal-to-electricity: 35+%
Nuclear-to-electricity: 27%

Total “well-to-wheel” efficiencies:
Gasoline vehicle: 15%
Diesel vehicle: 22%
Battery-electric vehicle: 32+% (coal), 24% (nuclear)

These efficiencies say NOTHING about the greenhouse gases involved…
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 5:48:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Great breakdown. I had no idea nuclear power was so inefficient.

When(If?) LiPo prices finally come down, that will really change the hybrid market.
— Agent004 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 6:50:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

hybridfarce, thanks for the breakdown. Could you please post your data source for reference?

I'm afraid that the biggest factor in coming up with these numbers is that every driver has a different driving circuit, as well as different energy sources available to him. So there's an error range that would need to be estimated. My guess is that hybrid electric drivers would save even more money than conventional hydrocarbon fueled drivers in urban areas, whereas diesel always wins in rural interstate/autoroute/autobahn/autostrada driving. That's why we need to improve all technologies, compare them objectively, and give drivers many choices in fuels and vehicles (exactly the opposite of what the past 20 years of government energy policy and corporate development has accomplished in the USA, I might add). thank goodness the Japanese and Europeans see things from a more long-term perspective.
— moto (View Profile)

Posted on 10/26/2007 12:28:44 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

woooo!!! trips to vegas!!! and use my gas money to gamble!!!
— audiS (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 6:30:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

^ Laughs, and thinks to himslef -

Las Vegas...

Fun place to visit, so-so place to actually live.
— DaHarder (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 8:11:09 PM | | Votes: 0

This is pretty impressive. Let Toyota get a hold of it to reduce the cost of the system even further...
— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 9:10:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

It would be great to have solar panels on the garage roof to generate the electricity that charges the batteies of this vehicle and the extra power is sold back to the utility company.Probably cost too much for the setup,but it's a thought.
— pitang (View Profile)

Posted on 10/21/2007 11:09:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

I was going to say that but you beat me to it! That is the ultimate renewable energy solution (using the sun's rays). Re-charge you car's battery with a solar-powered charger.
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 10/22/2007 8:26:08 AM | | Votes: 3

pitang,
Give it a few years, soon solar panels will be commonplace on the trunks and hoods of cars.

hybridfarce,
That's the beauty of hybrids and electricity in general, you can generate it from digging stuff out of the ground or having stuff fall from the sky. The kicker is that you can use electricity to generate hydrogen as well.
One bad thing about hybrids is that they cannot generate gasoline/fuel, hybrid-hydrogens will correct this.
It'll be 20 years down the road, but in the mean time, hybrids let us get more from less, not more from more (i.e. diesels).

One thing you neglected is that whether it be nuclear or coal, power plants run 24/7 and you cannot store the excess electricity generated during the night. Hybrids actually allow us to retain rather than waste this extra power, thereby reducing the use of fossil fuels when you look at it from a "maximizing returns" viewpoint.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/22/2007 12:55:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

huu76,
A viable rechargeable cell for automotive use will represent a “disruptive” automotive technology shift. If LiFePO4 cells turn out to be technically acceptable for automotive use with decreasing costs over time, they will begin a wholesale shift to hybrids and eventually to fully electric vehicles. Then, excess (or reserve) electricity produced at night would be ideally used to charge these vehicles at the off-peak (and cheaper) hours. It’s a win-win.

If the grid becomes overtaxed at night due to hybrids/EVs, I hope by then we will have alternative (renewable) methods of generating electricity. This should also imply we are using significantly less petroleum at this time. Despite my screen name (a thinly veiled joke), I believe hybrids are definitely a part of the automotive future.

The well-to-wheel efficiencies for hydrogen vehicles vary considerably now, so I don’t trust the numbers too much (and thus I didn’t list them). There are many methods of the hydrogen well-to-tank efficiencies, and I think it’s too early to say which one or two methods will be the most commercially viable.
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 10/22/2007 8:16:49 AM | | Votes: 3

It will be quite a few more than a "few years" before you find solar cells on hoods of cars. Besides actually creating solar cells that work more efficiently (which they are desinging right now) you have to put in place infrastructure. And even before you start mass producing on this new infrastucture you have to go through testing (crash test included) and certification. For a new power train this can take years. Even if the new solar cells were available today the mass manufacturing and certification would take at least 10 years. So in reality were are probably looking at an R&D cycle of 8 years including Beta testing, and a certification and maufacturing process of 10 years...before this product would become mainstream. So 20 years from now, you could see roofs covered with solar cells.

I agree with you that hybrids are a good thing. I thinkg hybrid technology is one part to reducing our dependence on foreign oil as well as our footprint on the planet. However lets not confuse Hybrids with fully electric cars. The key issue most people don't talk about is that hybrid cars run off GASOLINE. This is the most inefficient of fuel sources we currently have. That is where the second part of this partnership comes into place, Diesel. The concept of consuming more from less dosen't just apply to Gas hybrids, while more from more applies to diesels; more from less applies to both. The more people switch to diesels, the less fuel is consumed by motorists because you go to the pumps fewer and fewer times to fill up. Gas and Diesel both come from the same oil so a change in one affects a change in the other.

You combine both attributes (lets leave cost out of the equation for now) and you truly have one hell of a performace vehicle that will go the distance. If you want to go further and really help out the planet...use bio-diesels. Not only are you not drawing from oil sources at all...you are actually reducing the ammount of waste (plant matter, grease, etc...)that would otherwise end up in our overused landfills or in our rivers and oceans. And that would be the ultimate end goal...to use our waste (instead of our food supply...E85) to power our vehicles...think Back to the future Part II.

BTW well said hybridfarce.
— Spectator (View Profile)

Posted on 10/22/2007 2:07:09 PM | | Votes: 3

Spectator,
I agree with you about diesels – a diesel-hybrid makes more sense than gasoline-hybrid.

The E85 initiative has been a failure thus far – costs more energy than it produces, takes up the food supply (and increases food prices), and E85 has 25% LESS energy than gas.

Diesel well-to-wheel efficiency is better than gasoline (7% improvement is nothing to sneeze at), plus biodiesel has only 7% LESS energy than diesel fuel. With emissions issues largely solved, diesels are poised to make a huge comeback in the U.S.

Your reference to Back to the Future is coming true – scientists can now extract oil from plastic (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Giant-Microwave-Oven-Turns-Plastic-back-to-Oil-58381.shtml). Maybe there will be companies that mine the landfills for energy conversion, or better yet, pay you for your garbage…
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 10/22/2007 4:08:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Ah, so the truth comes out. You don't hate diesels.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 10/23/2007 9:47:26 PM | | Votes: 0

Idiotic. How long would it take for the cost to be effective? OVER 10 YEARS!!!! Hey more power to ya if you got the $$$. I def want to do my part to help the environment but not if it takes over 10 years to get my money's worth.

Also the main problem with Lithium batteries, all major patents on lithium technology is owned by CHEVRON!!! This is a reason Toyota cannot build and export cars with Lithium batteries to US.
— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 10/23/2007 6:19:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Porschinator,
You should investigate A123 a little more or any of the lithium battery startup companies in the US, Japan, China, and Taiwan. This newer lithium-based technology (i.e., not based on cobalt) is very different from the stuff from even 15 years ago. Do you think Chevron has controlling patents on the nanotechnology-based lithium technology that a couple of grad students from MIT have? (FYI, that's A123.)
— hybridfarce (View Profile)

Posted on 10/23/2007 7:22:17 PM | | Votes: 1

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Third party lithium-ion battery pack gets 150 MPG out of a Prius?

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