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To Blow Or Not: Are Small Turbocharged Motors The Future?

With ever tightening fuel economy standards manufactures are forced to look at new ways to increase mileage without sacrificing performance.  After all part of the luxury equation is a big powerful motor. But with out a big V8 how can you step forward in mileage without taking a step back in performance?  The answer currently in favor now seems to be smaller displacement turbocharged models.

 Even hard core manufactures such as BMW, are rethinking basic core philosophies. BMW previously described turbocharging as unacceptable and lazy and uninspiring way to gain horsepower, BMW is now singing a new tune. With a widely heralded 6 cylinder turbo already in the line up, and rumors surfacing a 4 cylinder variant is on the way, BMW has performed an about face over the last three years and has embraced a tried and proven technology.

 But what about the others?  Will Mercedes Benz extensive experience in supercharging now yield to a new generation of ultra efficient turbocharged gasoline motors?  The rumors are already flying.

 Audi is moving this direction in a big way, in many ways already leading the pack with turbocharged technology.  Expressing their confidence in the technology there are actively moving many the S models to twin turbocharged V6s from larger V8s.  Sammler displacement models abound all with turbocharging as standard. Audi it seems, has seen the writing on the all and fully committed to turbocharging most of the line in some form of another.

 The Japanese tend to take more of a wait and see attitude, moving much slower in embracing expensive technology.  The view here in many cases is we will follow after you make the mistakes.

 But should Lexus try a technology that while proven requires an elevated technical aptitude from the service technicians?  After all Lexus is in a bit of a quandary, most of the service procedures are similar to the lesser Toyota variants, but the service cost of a Lexus can rival and in some cases exceed those of the competition.  Adding complexity of this magnitude can only exasperate this situation.  Plus with the recent Hybrid improvements they may not feel the need to make a foray into the turbo world.  But I have to admit a turbocharged hybrid motor will appeal to many.

 Acura is also moving into the fold slowly with their first turbocharged model the RDX, but Infiniti is not showing any indication of changing from large displacement V6’s to smaller power plants.  Possibly a egregious error on their part. After all gas prices are rising, and you aren’t going to improve mileage that much with a large displacement motor.

 So in the luxury car market, will we see turbocharging gain more acceptance over the next decade, and will who will get left behind?


To Blow Or Not:  Are Small Turbocharged Motors The Future?



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TurboSpyderTurboSpyder - 4/9/2008 1:27:29 PMView My AgentSpace
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"Are Small Turbocharged Motors The Future?'

Yes.


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GreenPleaseGreenPlease - 4/9/2008 2:21:08 PM
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Agreed. Turbo I4s, H4s, I6s, H6s, and V6s are the future for the next 5-10 years.

IMO, Mercedes will actually stick with supercharging. They have a lot of TLC into their upcoming 1.4L KDI (Kompressor Direct Injection) engine and I'd bet that they will expand on the experience gained there.

I think we will also see the use of Pressure Wave Superchargers in the near future. They provide excellent low end response.

Also look for two stroke engines to make an appearance. Ricardo is working on an engine that can switch between 2 and 4 stroke mode. It offers up to 185hp/liter of displacement and a 30% gain in fuel economy. Stout.



stash84stash84 - 4/10/2008 10:16:59 AM
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"Lexus will wait and let the Germans develop the new turbo technology and then copy it, although it will be subpar to the German makes."

lmao...stop smoking crack and jump into reality



FactsRuleFactsRule - 4/10/2008 12:32:58 PM
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Stash84,
The truth hurts doesn't it..
If you did any research at all you would know that the Germans are the leaders in developing new automotive technology and it is always copied by the other manufacturers.

LMAO at you!!



bmwman1963bmwman1963 - 4/9/2008 1:35:24 PMView My AgentSpace
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Dead ON Target Agent009!

Lexus service visits are an invitation to freely say "just screw me!"..

Lexus will wait and let the Germans develop the new turbo technology and then copy it, although it will be subpar to the German makes.

Lexus waits, while BMW innovates!


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RupertRupert - 4/9/2008 1:57:43 PMView My AgentSpace
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Well Mitsu have a lot of experience with turbos, and BMW don't, and since Mitsu makes good turbos, it only makes sense that BMW buys them off them.


FactsRuleFactsRule - 4/9/2008 1:59:38 PM
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I suppose XeroKool, that as a Lexus fan boi, you will argue that Lexus uses all original parts... LOL


ShredmoShredmo - 4/9/2008 2:18:16 PM
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I believe the turbo on my Forester is made by Mitsubishi. It is the same turbo used in the eclipse, IIRC. (TD04)


Agent009Agent009 - 4/9/2008 2:44:06 PMView My AgentSpace
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You need to remember service visits are sources of revenue.

A rather sweet and unassuming friend of mine took her aging X5 to the dealer for an oil change, when they suggested replacing this and that filter, because they were close to time and adding other service items. Her oil change cost almost $800.

The sad thing is she probably needed JUST the filter and oil changed. The rest was upsale.



Agent009Agent009 - 4/9/2008 3:04:23 PMView My AgentSpace
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duqit - Other than mitsu which has a heavy truck division who makes their own turbos?


Htay7500Htay7500 - 4/9/2008 3:14:00 PM
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shredmo: your correct. the xt forester uses an identical engine in the impreza wrx or sti.


Agent009Agent009 - 4/9/2008 4:37:51 PMView My AgentSpace
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Nah dugit- Xero is pretty much dead on about this one...


1995e341995e34 - 4/9/2008 6:27:30 PM
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every auto manufacturer buys parts from other manufacturers, don't they? gm sells automatic trannies to bmw. bmw sells engines to rolls royce (i know, they own them). mitsubishi sells turbos to EVERYONE. toyota sells engines to lotus. etc...

i always amused by rolls royce being one of the greatest engine manufacturers in the world putting a bmw engine in their cars (i know they have good reasons to do so).



FactsRuleFactsRule - 4/9/2008 8:14:31 PM
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XeroKool,
I just observed your other postings and comments on this site. It is quite obvious you are biased towards Lexus and a "fan boi"...

Research, research, research.... Gotta love it.



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 4/9/2008 1:35:36 PMView My AgentSpace
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Yes. It has been confirmed that Audi will be releasing a 3.0L 333hp bi-turbo V6 next year, to make its debut in the A4/S4. I can't wait for it to hit the market.

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RupertRupert - 4/9/2008 1:55:08 PMView My AgentSpace
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And Audi also have the 1.4 TFSI (replaced 1.6 FSI in A3, more power, more performance, lower emissions and better mpg now), 2.0 TFSI, 1.8 TFSI, and I think they might use VW's Twincharger system at some point.


RupertRupert - 4/9/2008 1:56:38 PMView My AgentSpace
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And of course the 5.2 TT in the RS6.
Do you think they'll turbo the W12 for the next A8?



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 4/9/2008 6:08:58 PMView My AgentSpace
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That would be awesome, and it makes sense, but I have no idea.


HwanyHwany - 4/9/2008 8:24:36 PM
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"Audi will be releasing a 3.0L 333hp bi-turbo V6 next year, to make its debut in the A4/S4. I can't wait for it to hit the market."

Where did u get this info, S4?
I'm on Audizine, RS6, and Audiworld and they still think it's just pure speculation. It's not official yet, is it?
Some say that it will have both a turbocharger and a supercharger and some say it will just be twin-turbo. Who knows?
It's pure speculation until Audi actually release more info on it.



EvoAudiEvoAudi - 4/9/2008 10:07:12 PMView My AgentSpace
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@Hwany my sources at audi tell me the same about the 3L TT engine, only that it will be making more than 333hp, more like 350-370, and torque would be at least 310lb-ft.


BremboBrembo - 4/9/2008 1:42:17 PM
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I say we go with a solar power quad- turbo twin cylinders hydrogen fuel cell engine with rotary backup. LOL

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cdokecdoke - 4/9/2008 2:08:39 PMView My AgentSpace
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Now wait, are we actually talking about turbochargers or superchargers?

As I recall, all turbochargers are superchargers but not all superchargers are turbochargers- a turbocharger is a supercharger run off of exhaust gases.


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BremboBrembo - 4/9/2008 2:13:32 PM
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Wait is that right? That does seem to make sense for me. Can you explain that?


RupertRupert - 4/9/2008 4:49:21 PMView My AgentSpace
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Superchargers are belt-driven - there is a belt from the engine which turns the supercharger. It operates all the time.
A turbocharger works from a turbine which is spun by the engine's exhaust gases, which then turns the compressor (otherwise known as a supercharger) at the front. Turbo lag is due to the exhaust-driven turbine needing to have enough exhaust gas flowing at a high enough rate of speed in order to turn, which does not happen at low revs. Smaller turbos avoid this problem due to less inertia.



AnthonyAnthony - 4/9/2008 2:17:19 PM
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Many automakers' recent forays into turbocharging mimics the same ideals behind hybrids. A significant boost in power without a significant decrease in fuel economy. A turbocharged hybrid would blow everyone out of the water. However, as farfetched as it may seem now, can you imagine a turbocharged diesel-hybrid?


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GreenPleaseGreenPlease - 4/9/2008 2:25:35 PM
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I've seen theoretical concepts that use a SINGLE CYLINDER, natural gas, and an electric-assist VGT turbo. Using exclusively natural gas would allow for a significant increase in CR to ~14:1.

You're talking about diesel type efficiency with NG exhaust emissions. 75hp out of .5L would be very reasonable. Use it to run a series-hybrid. High performance Li-ion batteries with supercaps built into the electrodes.



S4cabriofoxoneS4cabriofoxone - 4/9/2008 6:10:59 PMView My AgentSpace
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"A significant boost in power without a significant decrease in fuel economy."

This is where I'm lost. Where is the significant boost in power in hybrids? Take the Prius. Compared to other cars its size, the engine is average at best. But it's all about the fuel economy. It seems like it's the opposite--significant boost in fuel economy without a significant decrease in power.



AnthonyAnthony - 4/9/2008 7:12:16 PM
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The GS350 has 300hp through a 3.5L V6 with 17/24 mpg.
The GS450h has 340hp through a 3.5L V6 + an electric motor with 22/25 mpg.

Taking the same engine and adding an electric motor significantly increases the horsepower output without sacrificing fuel economy, and in many cases such as this one, the extra power comes with the bonus of extra fuel economy.

A similar effect is achieved (albeit maybe unintentionally) through the use of turbochargers.

The 328i has 230hp through an inline 6 with 18/28 mpg.
The 335i has 300hp through an inline 6 with 17/26 mpg.

Taking the same engine and adding a turbocharger significantly increases the horsepower output without sacrificing that much fuel economy.

I was only making a link between the general idea/goal of every automaker searching for a balance between fuel economy and power, nothing more.




MPowerDKMPowerDK - 4/10/2008 4:45:48 AM
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The 328i has 230hp through an inline 6 with 18/28 mpg.
The 335i has 300hp through an inline 6 with 17/26 mpg.
In Europe it is this:

The 330i has 272hp through an inline 6 with 7,2l/100 km
The 335i has 306hp through an inline 6 with 9,1l/100km
In combination with city,highway and freeway.



stash84stash84 - 4/10/2008 10:20:25 AM
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Anthony

Some people just dont understand the concept of hybrids and how they work, yet it is so simple.
Good post.



cdokecdoke - 4/9/2008 2:19:48 PMView My AgentSpace
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I'll sure try.

Superpcharger: a device (as a blower or compressor) for pressurizing the cabin of an airplane or for increasing the volume air charge of an internal combustion engine over that which would normally be drawn in through the pumping action of the pistons

Turbocharger- : a centrifugal blower driven by exhaust gas turbines and used to supercharge an engine

So...a turbocharger is a type of supercharger- one that is driven by exhaust gases as opposed to a connection with the crank shaft. A supercharger that is attached to the crank shaft is ...just ...called...a supercharger...hm...

Does that make sense?


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cdokecdoke - 4/9/2008 2:26:29 PMView My AgentSpace
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The above is to Brembo


Agent009Agent009 - 4/9/2008 2:39:43 PMView My AgentSpace
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good explanation. But we can open it up to both superchargers and turbos.


cdokecdoke - 4/9/2008 2:49:58 PMView My AgentSpace
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I just wasn't sure- to me "blown" means supercharging in general.

Anyway, yes I do think that this thing is going to become more popular. Superchargers have some practical advantages over turbos when it comes to low-end power and tuning. Tuning a turbo engine correctly has to be complicated- at first glance I can think of two words; systemic non-linearity. I have read that turbos can achieve much higher pressures though.



Bmw8terBmw8ter - 4/9/2008 4:39:16 PM
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Taking elevation into consideration, turbo's make more sense than superchargers.


motomoto - 4/9/2008 5:39:42 PM
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It's a matter of semantics. The aviation industry often uses quite different terminology than the auto industry to describe similar concepts.

Porsche offered turbocharged aviation engines two decades ago, but they didn't find favor in the small aircraft market. They were too expensive, and naturally aspirated engines from Lycoming and Continental dominated the marketplace. Of course, that's easy to understand -- when you're flying at 250+ nautical miles per hour, ram air effect (directly behind a propeller, mind you) is an inexpensive way to push more air into the cylinder, even if air density is lower at altitude. At typical car speeds (everyone obsesses over 0-60 times, so let's use that as an example), automakers have turned to turbos and superchargers. It's hard to say that the increased cost of these systems is justified, since increasing displacement of the engine is always cheaper - albeit at a loss of fuel economy at light engine loads.

Much more cost effective for achieving a dramatic increase in engine power is liquid oxygen injection, but for some reason that hasn't become popular.



BremboBrembo - 4/9/2008 8:32:27 PM
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Thanks cdoke and rupert.

Moto: are you referring NOS?



ChicaneShooterChicaneShooter - 4/9/2008 11:50:39 PM
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how about a hybrid with an ELECTRIC MOTOR driven supercharger?

NO parasitic losses when extra power is not needed. near instant boost at any RPM on demand.

smaller displacement ICE (which all 4-cyl hybrids already base econo philosophy on) allows for maximum mpg at cruise and low speeds.




motomoto - 4/12/2008 2:45:15 PM
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no, i mean liquid oxygen. NOS is easier to use, but less effective.


montyz81montyz81 - 4/9/2008 4:05:15 PM
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Infiniti is sticking with their Tried and True V6. I do wonder if this is a bad idea. It seems they think the lighter alloy metal that they came up with will help improve MPG's for the VQ. I don't think that will last for long though as gas prices continue to sore. Soon the new say will be, "I shoulda had an I4"

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bmwfan1513bmwfan1513 - 4/9/2008 6:32:27 PM
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Small turbocharged motors are definitely the future.



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nSunnSun - 4/9/2008 9:39:53 PM
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if I was an engine I'd like to get blown :)

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farabira1farabira1 - 4/9/2008 11:10:03 PM
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Turbo's are great fun if there is little lag, and seems like with new technologies like "lowering the rotational inertia of the turbine", the turbo lags will be reduced significantly in future.

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HeyhuubHeyhuub - 4/10/2008 2:14:45 AM
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Small turbo/supercharged engines have been around in the major market for more then 25 years as far as i know.

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simmonsdpsimmonsdp - 4/10/2008 7:38:24 AM
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Yeah,,,small high reving 4 cyl. motors with and without have been around Europe for decades. I think that there has not been much of a market in the state's but that may change due to the current oil crises.........


M35MTM35MT - 4/10/2008 7:40:19 AMView My AgentSpace
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The future is now, its already began!

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boidzboidz - 4/15/2008 11:47:21 PM
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Quoting XeroFool:
"BMW innovates by using Mitsubishi turbos. Very innovative indeed."

Innovative - yes!!

Who else uses DUAL turbos? Umm, Mitsi - Err, no. Nissan, uh, no. Honda, uh, What's a turbo? Toyota - Um, turbo, isn't that a video game?

Nuff said...


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